Talk:Salvador Dalí

Mike Wallace

Wallace's interview with Dali wasn't for 60 Minutes, but The Mike Wallace Interview. http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/dali_salvador.html 209.242.234.122 (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Dali's mother/housegirl?

Regarding the sentence from the first paragraph of the biography:

His father, Salvador Dalí i Cusí, was a middle-class lawyer and notary[6] whose strict disciplinarian approach was tempered by his housegirl, Felipa Domenech Ferres, who encouraged her son's artistic endeavors.

Unless I'm missinterpreting "housegirl", this sentence claims that Dali was the maid's son, or that the maid also had an artistic son, whose endeavors she encouraged? Anrie 13:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It's confusing. I think it may be saying he was influenced by the maid, but someone's incorrectly put in the word "son". --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 09:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

I suggest to change the infobox picture to Image:Salvador Dalí 1939.jpg, in my opinion it's not as creepy as the current one. --Andersmusician VOTE 05:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Lawsuit

Should be some mention of the incident where he plagiarized a pixellated portrait of Abraham Lincoln right off the cover of Scientific American magazine (see Leon Harmon), and was sued over it... AnonMoos 02:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Dali's writing for the Marx brothers and friendship with Harpo Marx

I just thought it should be mentioned somewhere in this article that Salvador Dali knew the Marx brothers. He was friends with Harpo Marx and even wrote a movie for them. This would surely be interesting and relevant to anyone who is interested in Dali. - flipjargendy 14:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Politics

The politics section is subjective because it tries to analyse Orwell's opinion on Dali and calls it misunderstanding. Orwell was clear that he was against moral relativism when it comes to artists. There is no misunderstanding in it. The article should be neutral on this point and not trying to excuse Dali or explain Orwell. --N.N. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.250.170 (talk) 14:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

That's why Wikipedia has "fact" tags. JNW (talk) 15:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

'Secret life' is not a true autobiography, it's a bunch of made up stuff intended to shock and/or amuse. Why anyone would base opinions about the man on this work is beyond me. Technically it should probably not even be referred to as an autobiography, as it is mostly fictional. I would have thought this would be common knowledge after 60+ years LOL24.5.188.169 (talk) 01:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Since Orwell was a wishy washy Socialist, its "perhaps" not neutral to include a line like "One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dalí is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being." Who cares what Orwell thought of Dali? Its irrelevent. - Gennarous (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Names

I'm pretty sure that he wasn't called Domingo. As appears in "Salvador Dalí" by Fidel Cordero : " Salvador Felipe Jacinto of full name (Felipe because of his mother "Felipa", and Jacinto was his uncle's third name (uncle Rafael)). I think "Domingo" is a wrong translation of his second surname Doménech, wich he received from his mother. It's just a doubt I have, please correct me if I'm wrong and leave a reference where I can check it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.19.152.235 (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Many google hits, including the biography on Spanish Wikipedia [1], confirm 'Domingo' as part of his full name. JNW (talk) 00:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Orwell's crisitism is portrayed inaccurately

From part 4 Politics and personality section of the Dali article:

"In his critical review of Dalí's autobiography Secret Life, the socialist George Orwell wrote "One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dalí is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being."[67] The misunderstanding probably arises from Dalí's deliberately provocative scorn for the communist leanings of his peers, and the fact that he painted Hitler on more than one occasion.[citation needed]"

This is totally inaccurate as you'll discover if you simply read Orwell's critique here:

Benefit Of Clergy: Some Notes On Salvador Dali: http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/CriticalEssays/salvadordali.html cited at ^[67] in the wiki article.

George Orwell's criticism is a statement against Dali's own professed acts in his autobiography based on acts ranging from kicking his little sister in the head when she was three years old and he five, to his obsession with necrophilia and other obscene acts and artistic work in the early and middle parts of the 20th century.

Orwell made this statement based on his conclusions about Dali's skills as a painter, which the author praised. However, he also condemns the painter for his perversity, flaunting of immorality and extreme narcissism.

The author also questions the society and its structures that would produce such an artist with such popularity promoting such obscene and perverse actions through art and in life.

This critique was based on much more than any disdain on Orwell's part against communism, or Hitler. As neither are mentioned in the essay itself except only in indirect ways.

An excerpt from the text:

"But if you talk to the kind of person who CAN see Dali’s merits, the response that you get is not as a rule very much better. If you say that Dali, though a brilliant draughtsman, is a dirty little scoundrel, you are looked upon as a savage. If you say that you don’t like rotting corpses, and that people who do like rotting corpses are mentally diseased, it is assumed that you lack the aesthetic sense. Since ‘Mannequin rotting in a taxicab’ is a good composition. And between these two fallacies there is no middle position, but we seldom hear much about it. On the one side KULTURBOLSCHEVISMUS: on the other (though the phrase itself is out of fashion) ‘Art for Art’s sake.’ Obscenity is a very difficult question to discuss honestly. People are too frightened either of seeming to be shocked or of seeming not to be shocked, to be able to define the relationship between art and morals.

It will be seen that what the defenders of Dali are claiming is a kind of BENEFIT OF CLERGY. The artist is to be exempt from the moral laws that are binding on ordinary people. Just pronounce the magic word ‘Art’, and everything is O.K.: kicking little girls in the head is O.K.; even a film like L’Age d’Or is O.K. * It is also O.K. that Dali should batten on France for years and then scuttle off like rat as soon as France is in danger. So long as you can paint well enough to pass the test, all shall be forgiven you.

One can see how false this is if one extends it to cover ordinary crime. In an age like our own, when the artist is an altogether exceptional person, he must be allowed a certain amount of irresponsibility, just as a pregnant woman is. Still, no one would say that a pregnant woman should be allowed to commit murder, nor would anyone make such a claim for the artist, however gifted. If Shakespeare returned to the earth to-morrow, and if it were found that his favourite recreation was raping little girls in railway carriages, we should not tell him to go ahead with it on the ground that he might write another King Lear. And, after all, the worst crimes are not always the punishable ones. By encouraging necrophilic reveries one probably does quite as much harm as by, say, picking pockets at the races. One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other. The first thing that we demand of a wall is that it shall stand up. If it stands up, it is a good wall, and the question of what purpose it serves is separable from that. And yet even the best wall in the world deserves to be pulled down if it surrounds a concentration camp. In the same way it should be possible to say, ‘This is a good book or a good picture, and it ought to be burned by the public hangman.’ Unless one can say that, at least in imagination, one is shirking the implications of the fact that an artist is also a citizen and a human being."

This entire section of the article needs to be rewritten in my opinion. The way it is worded now is entirely misleading, and easily refuted.

I welcome discussion on this important part of the article, and on George Orwell's well written critique of Dali which I tend to agree with.

The wiki could be well improved here I believe.

Graphic lucidity (talk) 05:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well spotted, though it doesn't surprise me that the subversives have tried to twist such a thing and use Wikipedia to try and attack a person's legacy. Clearly the review has nothing to do with Dalí's stance on Franco, despite the fact that in this article its been made to look as so. The whole sentence should just be removed.

Any case, I don't think Dalí was really a fascist, if I had to hedge a bet.. I'd say he was an anarchist. The unfortunate thing about the artform he was part of is, so many of them are boring communists and PC socialists. The mere fact that Dali didn't care at all what his so called "peers" though of him, to the point that he'd try to get under the skin of boring communist/athiests like Breton by pretending to be a fascist is hillarious to me and a testament to Dalí greatness. - Gennarous (talk) 04:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Dali's Fascism status is incorrect

The statements about Salvador Dali being fascist are incorrect. Please see "Surrealism and the Spanish Civil War", by Robin Greeley, Yale Univ. Press, 2006. p. 55. Dali himself proclaims that he is not fascist, or Hitlerian (p.55).

It is true that fascism held a particular fascination for Dali, but this fascination was more due to his eccentric nature, and relationship to Freudian sexuality - which he associated with narcisist in Nazisim. However, Dali studied these as an artist. Robin Greeley (above ref.) shows that Dali was not fascist himself. Dali says "I am hitlerian neither in fact nor in intention". Dali was tried before the original surrealists (Breton, etc), in question of his views of surrealism, but this result was not conclusive of him as a fascist (p.51-89). None the less, his views differed enough from theirs that they separated themselves from him.

Specifically, this paragraph is wrong:

"Instead of condemning Hitler as his fellow surrealists, Dalí developed an obsessive interest in what he called "the Hitler phenomenon" which was frowned upon by his predominantly Marxist surrealist colleagues. Then, when Francisco Franco came to power in the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War, Dalí was one of the few Spanish intellectuals supportive of the new regime[30] which eventually resulted in his official expulsion from the surrealist group.[23] At this, Dalí retorted, "I myself am surrealism."[18] André Breton coined the anagram "avida dollars" (for Salvador Dalí), which more or less translates to "eager for dollars,"[31] by which he referred to Dalí after the period of his expulsion. The surrealists henceforth spoke of Dalí in the past tense, as if he was dead. At this stage his main patron was the very wealthy Edward James. The surrealist movement and various members thereof (such as Ted Joans) would continue to issue extremely harsh polemics against Dalí until the time of his death and beyond."

It suggests Dali was supportive of Fascism, which is not true. He was "obsessively interested" , and it was frowned upon by other surrealists, but he proclaimed himself not to be fascist (*see note below). Greeley shows that in his works, e.g. The Enigma of Hitler (1939), Dali portrays Hitler as a "tiny dictator" (p.83), and demonstrate "it clearly deviates from fascist constructions of paternal authority as wholesome and positive", the image fascism wished to portray. In other words, Dali is questioning, challenging fascism in his painting. Dali's fascinations with capitalism, fascism, and Freudian sexuality are all related to an interest in understanding greed and desire. To Breton, original surrealism was about political change, so he could not understand Dali's interest in these things (thus referring to Dali as "eager for dollars"). Yet neither his work, nor his speech, suggest Dali was actually fascist.

The sentence "Dali was one of the few Spanish intellectuals supportive of the new regime [30]" - actually appears no where in the reference it uses! In fact, the sentences "[Dali].. did not openly side with the Republic or with the fascist regime." and "Dalí preferred to remain apolitical" DO appear in that same reference [30].

This paragraph is also ridiculous:

"Dalí, having returned to the Catholic faith and increasingly religious as time went on, was almost certainly referring to the communists, socialists and anarchists who had killed almost 7,000 priests and nuns during the Spanish Civil War. Dalí sent telegrams to Franco, "praising him for signing death warrants for political prisoners.[37]"

The reference [37], by Vincente Navarro, is an article in Counterpunch - known for alternative opinions, not fact. Navarro is not an authority on surrealist art history. That article [37], provides no references itself, neither to direct works of Dali, nor to historical sources on Dali. None of the facts it states, which are clearly opinionated, have sources.

I would change these myself, but the page appears to be locked.

Referring to the last discussion above, and the comment: "The mere fact that Dali didn't care at all what his so called "peers" though of him, to the point that he'd try to get under the skin of boring communist/athiests like Breton by pretending to be a fascist is hillarious to me and a testament to Dalí greatness.".

This is pure speculation. Dali never "pretended to be fascist". He was obsessed with understanding particular forms of greed and desire, which included fascism. Did he intentionally study these to upset Breton? Also, what is "boring" about Breton? Miro, Breton, Masson and others developed the original surrealism, called "automatic drawing", in order to denounce the military coup d'etat of the Spanish Civil War. Hardly boring. (Ref: Andre Breton, "The Manifestos of Surrealism" and Robin Greeley, Ch. 1).. Of course, this was a side comment, not on the article page itself. The best way to show Dali's greatness is not to exaggerate or make up facts about him, but to be accurate.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.35.182 (talk) 09:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

My contact info: Rama Hoetzlein, rch@umail.ucsb.edu

Boring is an "artist" automatically being a leftist and anti-church. Is so passé, expected and yawn inspiring. Leftists whinging about "the man" are generally, the most boring people on earth... Dali would have being doing a diservice to the truely unique person he was if he bowed down and lowered himself to the leftist atheism elitism which runs through the arts like a virus. - Gennarous (talk) 19:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read Surrealism and the Spanish Civil War (Robin Greeley) and Dada & Surrealism (Matthew Gale). This is simple a matter of reading and understanding the historic facts. The true picture is much more complex than the duality you create between the "left" and the "right". -Rama, 28 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.35.182 (talk) 07:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• note - One meaning of becoming "obsessed with" means to take on the nature of a thing for study, but not necessary to become that thing. For example, as when Clarice begins to think like Hannibal Lechter in Silence of the Lambs. She becomes able to catch Bill (the serial killer in the film), by thinking like him, but does not become criminal herself.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.38.52.54 (talk) 07:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Dali should be mentioned as purely a surrealist artist. While many of his works are surrealist, even to the point that some argue that he had no masterpieces after he was "expelled" from the movement, I believe he had plenty of relevant paintings in the Pop Art and Cubist movements as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.31.67 (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Featured article status disputed

I think this article needs some work to maintain its featured article status. After browsing through the article, I noticed several things that I believe should be dealt with:

• the lead section is not a good summary of the article
• not all content has source references
• the article contains a gallery with six non-free images
• it contains superfluous whitespace

– Ilse@ 22:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

When did Dalí die--in 1982 or in 1989?

``Count Münchhausen~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.208.47.74 (talk) 04:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting

• (1) In-house only

• (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
• (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
• (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

• (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

• (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

• (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

• (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
• (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
• (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

• (4) Typos and misunderstood coding

• (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
• (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
• (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

• (5) Edit-mode clutter

• (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

• (6) Limited application

• (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
• (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text (using a script) in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 14:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words and POVs in "Politics and personality" section.

- Some of Dalí's statements supported the Franco regime, congratulating Franco for his actions aimed "at clearing Spain of destructive forces" NEEDS A CITATION so I'll add

"Dalí, having returned to the Catholic faith and increasingly religious as time went on, was likely referring to the communists, socialists and anarchists who had killed almost 7,000 priests and nuns during the Spanish Civil War."

- 1) "Communists, Socialists and anarchists" not "communists, socialists and anarchists"

- 2) "was likely referring" is weasel-worded, POV and (possibly) original research. I propose to add notices to this effect at the start of the section, and to rewrite as:

"Dalí, having returned to the Catholic faith and increasingly religious as time went on, was likely referring to the Communists, Socialists and anarchists who had killed almost 7,000 priests and nuns during the Spanish Civil War."

However, I think that there is a strong case for removing this altogether if no supporting evidence can be found. Wikipedia is not the place for conjecture and opinions on what famous artists may/may not have been "likely" to be "referring to". The place for that sort of thing is a thesis, a biography or a history book. Not an encyclopaedia.

Liquidcentre (talk) 16:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I understand your concern. However, anybody who is acquainted with the Spanish situation/history and late Dali's stances on the matter, will tell you that, indeed, that excerpt rings true. It may be difficult to quote, but rather true all the same. That is why I thought that removing it is excessive.

So, as far as I am concerned, those tags are ok, except for the one regarding killed clerics, because you find those citations at the article linked, Red Terror (Spain). Mountolive _{and the complications} 16:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Some valuable missing information on your Dali page

<copyvio para removed>

4yourinfo (talk) 12:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

This was interesting, but it was also a cut-and-paste copyright violation of the content of this web page, which is why I have removed it. If you could rewrite it in your own words, there is no reason why this information should not be included on the page, and you'd be welcome to do so yourself. Karenjc 13:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Bisexual

Dali had a homosexual relationship with Federico Garcia Lorca, as well as having had heterosexual relationships; therefore he was bisexual. That he claimed he was not homosexual does not contradict that, as many bisexuals say that, and, strictly speaking, bisexuals aren't homosexual, they are of mixed orientation. It also has to be remembered that being LGBT when he was a young adult was not celebrated with gay pride marches etc as it is today. Catholicism was much stronger in Spain then, and, under Franco's regime, being LGBT was certainly not something to publicly admit. Werdnawerdna (talk) 01:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Werdnawerdna. In fact, some valuable missing information on this Dali page... And no bibliography. Best regards. IP, 25 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.89.67.131 (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, too --24.21.148.155 (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, Garcia was well in love with him - but I doubt they had an actual (sexual) relationship. 62.47.52.134 (talk) 09:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Figueres, Spain

It is enough with "Figueres, Spain"; no need to add "Catalonia" and "Spanish Catalan". Ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.31.72.232 (talk) 09:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Jewelry under List Of Works

This needs to be added. Dali made a handful of prominent pieces of jewelry. I'd add it myself but the form isn't showing any changes. --24.21.148.155 (talk) 03:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Born-Died stuff

I'd propose the common Wikipedia standard: Figueres, 11 May 1904 - Púbol, 23 January 1989 because this would make the phrase "born in Figueres" superfluous and thus the article more compact and more fluent to read. Agree? -andy 92.229.164.237 (talk) 09:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

See the Manual of Style section WP:DATE#Dates of birth and death, which states: "Locations of birth and death are given subsequently rather than being entangled with the dates." - mandarax • xɐɹɐpuɐɯ  09:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Dalí's Brother

The information regarding Dalí's brother's death is inaccurate. According his autobiography, his brother died at the age of seven, three years before Dalí was born, of meningitis.

The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí, pg.2

User246 (talk) 19:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

his wife

in one of his painings he drew to symbolise his love for his wife because he said when he kissed her he felt like he should be devouring her!

Dali's obscure comrade, the one depicted as the Moor in the piece entitled The "Battle of Tetuan".

Dali's obscure comrade: Were you aware that Salvador Dali had a very close friendship with an African-American gentleman who acted as Dali's rep., during the 60's. Reginald Lawrence Simmons (b. June 18, 1926 Dickinsen, TX) represented Dali in NY, at the United Nations in 1966 where he presented "The Salvador Dali Cachet UNICEF" design to the then UN Secretary General U Thant. It is said that on that same occasion Basil Rathbone was presiding during said presentation. Dad also appeared on the Joe Franklin Show with Monsieur Dali (circa 1963). Who was this Mr. Simmons? Mr. Simmons represented Dali in Stockholm at the Kunst Academy and at the Museum of Fine Arts Montreal Canada. It occurs to me that for history's sake (and during every Black History Month) it would merit some looking into. Few people know that Monsiuer Dali chose Reginald Simmons as the model for the face, arms, hand wielding the sword, upper torso being trampled and various other body parts to be featured in his painting entitled "The Battle of Tetuan?" Mr. Simmons is depicted as the Moor that is leading the battle against Dali, the Spaniard in the Northern Moroccan city of Tetuan. Thankfully, Simmons is yet with us. Mr. Simmons has insight into Dali that few still living have, and has much to share on his friendship with Dali and his beloved Gala. This has proven very interesting to those fortunate enough to have met him. This is a bit of history that should be made known to the so called Dalinians at large and to the black community for socio-educational and artistic edification. In my opinion this falls into the category of African-Americans who although instrumental in matters of politics, exploration, science, religion and in this case the arts, were kept in virtual obscurity or basically not often spoken of. Such as: Lewis Howard Latimer, Latimer was the only African-American member of Thomas Edison's engineering laboratory. Or Matthew Alexander Henson, who was the only African-American to accompany Robert E. Peary as personal assistant, dog driver, and interpreter on numerous expeditions to the Arctic.

Mr. Simmons is in the process of producing a Docu/Art documentary on Dali that will give the viewer an introduction to the mind of Dali from the experiential knowledge of a friend and comrade.

You may write Mr. Simmons at: 510 Main Street Suite 1914 Roosevelt Island, NY 10044 212-593-2616 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.214.1.1 (talk) 01:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

what's wrong?

Please tell, what's wrong with my added link? Georgiani (talk) 14:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)