Talk:James Vann

James Vann

What is the problem with the family information I have provided about James Vann? I am not making this stuff up, since it was compiled from the Moravian missionary Journals kept by close contemporary eyewitnesses of Vann's activities and family and not oral traditions or secondary sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.114 (talk) 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Please go have a look at WP:Reliable to determine whether the journals qualify as a reliable source. (I frankly am not sufficiently well-versed in Wikipedia practices to opine.) Then, if you are doing more than citing directly to these journals - that is, if you are providing your own synthesis or interpretation of them - also check WP:OR, which explains that Wikipedia articles must be founded on reliable, verifiable sources and not on original research. Finally, it may be a good idea to tie your edits directly to the sources you're citing, to make it clearer to other editors that your work is all supported by the sources. I am sure that other editors can offer much more thorough, and better, advice than this - which is pretty sketchy to be honest - but this will get you started. If your edits are in fact supported by reliable and verifiable sources, then as a general matter they should remain in the article. And if they conflict with other reliable, verifiable sources - well, cross that bridge when we get to it. JohnInDC (talk) 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. For a while, I seemed to be confronting a black hole. From 1801 to 1834, the Moravian missionaries maintained daily journal entries (written in German) concerning that day's events and visitors to Spring Place, including a teenaged Samuel Houston, the widow of Gen. Nathaniel Green, and President James Madison. But they were especially aware of and concerned with the sometimes irratic personality of their patron James Vann and his moody mother (either "Mrs. Vann", "Mother Vann," or "Old Lady Vann" depending on her attitude toward the Moravians), and his stepfather (who told the missionaries that he was childless), siblings, wives, children, slaves (subject of an upcomming book by Tiya Miles about Cherokee ownership of African-Americans), employees, and customers. A missionary once removed an insect that got in Vann's ear that made him frantic. Another time a missionary found Vann lying senseless on a path. When admonished for being drunk, Vann replied "Thank God, I thought I had been shot!" There is an account of Vann torturing a teenaged white girl (hung by her thumbs; no waterboarding here!), who was suspected of theft of Vann's money but rescued by the missionies. There are not many pages in the Journals that fail to mention Vann or his relatives. Most of the journals document their relationship with James Vann until his death in 1809; afterwards their principal patron and convert was Chief Charles R. Hicks. Also they were involved with Vann's widow Margaret or Peggy Scott, who was their neighbor and first convert. Peggy's swecond husband was Joseph Crutchfield, a white man and first cousin of James Vann. Several of Vann's white relatives were employed by Vann or visited Spring Place. Also frequently mentioned in the Diaries was Major Ridge whose son John Ridge and nephews Elias Boudinot and Stand Watie were Spring Place pupils. By the way, several of my Cherokee ancestors visited Spring Place and are mentioned in the Journals, including Sally Scott who was a sister of three of Vann's wives, and her son Collins McDonald who attended the school (he was a first cousin of Chief John Ross). Hence my interest in these documents. For your information, I also assisted the editors of similar compilation of Diaries of the later and rival Presbyterian missionary school (began 1818) known as the Brainerd school located on Chickamauga Creek south of the site of Chattanooga,TN.

I cannot concieve of a more usefull, neutral, accurate, contemporary, and authoritative source than the eyewitness records written by Rosina Gambold and the other Moravian missionaries. In addition, there is a list of Spring Place students, with the name of pupil, names of his or her parents, residence, whether Indian or white, and dates of enrollment or departure (and sometimes reason for the departure). Most of Vann's children attended the Spring Place school and are listed. I transcribed this list from a microfilm of Moravian records in the Library of Congress and furnished it to the translator, Dr. McClinton (I am cited in her book). I also prepared for her a annotated index of everyone (both Cherokee and white) mentioned in the Jounals. No wonder I am frustrated at the Wikipedia rejection of this newly available information about a very colorful and important Cherokee leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like a fascinating story. But be that as it may! Wikipedia is, for better or for worse, founded on the notions of verifiability and reliability rather than personal knowledge, original research or anecdote - which means in this context that you need to look at those pages that I've linked and see how, or if, you can make those journals fit into the Wikipedia paradigm. Have any academics translated or reviewed, summarized or encapsulated the journals? If the journals themselves are not reliable then perhaps someone else's efforts to sort through them are. (PS - don't forget to sign your comments here by typing four tildes '~' in a row! And truly, consider registering your own account!) JohnInDC (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The journals are "primary sources" in Wikipedia, and great care must be taken in using them as source material. Have a look here: Wikipedia:PRIMARY#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources. JohnInDC (talk) 20:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Aha. Translated into English and published in two volumes the University of Nebraska press. This blurb is very helpful. http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/catalog/productinfo.aspx?id=671923&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1. This one too - http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Moravian+Springplace+Mission+to+the+Cherokees.+Volume+1:...-a0194278485. Please, look into how this material can be appropriately used. My (inexperienced) take on it is that you could properly use the journals as sources for simple, descriptive facts about James Vann at least. JohnInDC (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The Moravian Journals have been peer reviewed widely as an essential primary source on Cherokee affairs during the period of the mission's existence. All of the episodes I described above can be footnoted volume and page (except for the story of the torture of the girl, which is among records of the National Archives in Washington,DC. I work in the National Archives and perhaps we could meet sometime after work hours and discuss this matter in person. Once this matter is resolved, I plan to submit to Wikipedia an eyewitness account of the murder of Chief Doublehead, the story of the explosion and sinking of Rich Joe Vann's steamboat on the Ohio River, a gang of thieves that harrassed Cherokees in Georgia called the "Pony Club", the assassination of Chief Jack Walker in 1834 by my collateral ancestor James Foreman, and other interesting Cherokee history.