Talk:Mark the Evangelist

Statement

I have recently edited the page due to a minor incorrect statemenr that results in confusion. Barnabas and Mark did not "stay" they seperated From Paul who took Silas with him. Barnabas and Mark left and went to Cyprus. Kyle.Mullaney 06:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)Kyle

the exact statement that was edited out was the following "but was left behind (and Barnabas stayed too) for the second, as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles."

Article needs cleanup

The article on Mark the Evanelist has numerous errors in spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc., and needs to be cleaned up. I don't know how to create this "flag" so I'm noting it here. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.68.4.4 (talk • contribs) .

It seems to me that the article was rather good until this edit, and since then there's been much reinventing the wheel to get it to the current form. I would normally try to merge the two versions together, but I'm so much so not an expert on this that I'm not comfortable doing that here. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I went back to that version and merged in just the very end of it, mainly the external links and the succession box. I didn't take time to go through all the edits from that version, but I suspect there's more that would be worth merging back in. Wesley 16:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

---

Noted that the page had been vandalised, tried to correct the problem, but i can't find all the vandal's edits. at least one reference link is fubar at this time.D.C.Rigate 19:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Think I got them all now D.C.Rigate 19:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Who was he?

There is no mention of his native tongue, where he was born or his birth name. Was it the Roman Marcus??? Further, the fact box states that he died in AD 68 (which is for anyone who cares, was the year of the four Caesars), but in the text of the article, it states that "In AD 67 they killed him" So did he die in 68 or 67? Naerhu 06:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Mark is Peter's son?

1 Pet. 5: 13

The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

-- Not physical son -- the apostles used this form of address to indicate young men who were converted under their ministry. Paul does the same thing with Timothy and Titus.76.181.166.22 (talk) 01:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources for "Biblical and traditional information" section

I have references for a lot of the "Biblical and traditional information" section, but they are all from Catholic biblical commentary. I suppose this is because they are Catholic traditions in some parts of the world. My sources are The Navarre Bible: St Mark and The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. Is my footnoting the Catholic traditions using Catholic sources a POV problem? After all they are Catholic traditions. Jason3777 22:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm going ahead and putting the references I can find into the Biblical and traditional information section. The traditions I am referencing are Catholic, so I don't think there is a NPOV problem with using Catholic sources to reference Catholic traditions in this section of the article. Also, it says at the top of the page "This article needs additional references or sources for verification." Jason3777 01:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Authorship Claims

Removed authorship claims in the Biblical and traditional information section because they are discussed in the Epistle articles and to make the sentence more NPOV. I also replaced the semicolons with commas since I removed the parentheses. Jason3777 14:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup of Biblical and traditional information 2nd paragraph

I'm going to do a clean up of the second paragraph. I don't intend to do a major edit (although I will save it as such) I want to make it more readable and NPOV (most of the NPOV stuff is already done - see above). Plus I intend to add footnotes. I will do my best to leave the meaning of the paragraph unaltered. If anyone has a problem with this please let me know, because I've got my books stacked around me, and want to get it done as soon as possible. I have done research on this topic before, but don't worry, I have no original information to add, just the references. Jason3777 18:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Separation from Paul and his Gospel

I've cn tagged the following sentence: "Ironically, this separation helped bring about the creation of the Gospel of Mark."

If it is not cited or explained in some way, I'll deleted it after at least 24h. I can't find a source for this, and fail to see 1) how the causality flowed, or 2) how it would be ironic. 22:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Am deleting it shortly. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Repairing the Vandalism (Blanking) of the Biblical and traditional information section

User:209.250.183.90 blanked the entire Biblical and traditional information section on 11:38 April 9, 2008. The article requested references and with this blanking went from 6 references to 1. No reason was given for this large removal of content, so I have restored it. Jason3777 (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I realize the references I'm citing are from the same source

I will try to find other references, but the Navarre Bible is very traditional and explains these traditions. I know an article or section of an article should not depend only on one source, so if anyone can find other references to these traditions, please add them. It is the only source I have found so far that documents these traditions, but I will continue searching for additional references in my library. And the Navarre Bible is a legitimate source. I'm just trying to reference what has already been written by others in the article. Jason3777 (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

References for Traditions section

I have found all the references I could in my library (it's mainly Catholic). And I found a Coptic web link to the Seventy Apostles, but did not add the link because I'm not Coptic. I thought a member of the Coptic faith should link a legitimate source. I found that the Mark and John traditions were in the brief, original article. The writer is now an administrator. Does anyone have a source for these? If anyone can find legitimate source(s) for the Coptic or The Book of John references, please add them. Thanks.

And just out of curiosity, does anyone read this talk page? I feel like I'm talking to myself and making edits without consensus. Maybe no news is good news.... Sorry it took almost a year to accomplish my objective. I would also like to thank you for letting me learn Wiki markup language here without grief! Jason3777 (talk) 03:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We do. And yeah, no news is good news. If no one reverts you, assume you've done well; definitely assume you've done well if no-one replies. Myself anyways, I don't really reply to something unless it's contentious, so that could be why there's been so much silence. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Libyan birth tradition

The story that Mark was born in Libya is found on the Coptic church's website, but not in ancient sources afaict. I'm not sure where it comes from. In the absence of something broader, the claim about Libya should be referenced specifically to that tradition, and not stated as if it were uncontroverted fact. Tb (talk) 08:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Egypt is part of Africa

The article says (correctly) that Mark is traditionally accounted the beginning of Christianity in Africa. This implies, of course, that he was the beginning of Christianity in Egypt, since we was there. But if we say (as an editor wants to, without comment) merely that he was first in Egypt, that leaves unstated the important fact that he was (according to the tradition) the beginning in Africa as a whole, and not just Egypt. I request that the editor who wants to change Africa->Egypt should explain why. Tb (talk) 08:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Source for Coptic traditions

Many of the Coptic traditions mentioned in the article can be found at *St. Mark's detailed biography by H.H. Pope Shenouda III, which is already in the External Links section of the article. Pope Shenouda III could I think be considered a legitimate Coptic source, being that he's the 117th patriarch of the see of St. Mark.

If you want, perhaps that should be moved to the reference section? I think that most if not all of the 'citation needed' marks about church tradition can probably be sourced from that one alone. Also note that Pope Shenouda III cites many earlier sources. Wesley (talk) 06:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that this is only one hierarch's statements from one church. Generic "it is said" and "there is a tradition that" statements are very curious: they are weak, but documenting them requires more than one such source. If we had "according to one Coptic tradition", then that reference would surely be sufficient. Tb (talk) 00:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

If it used as a reference, it should be done in the reference format, with ref tags around it so it automatically goes in the ref section. Just listing the URL at the end of the ref section wouldn't do readers trying to find the sources of statements much good. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Peter's companion?

Intro says Mark was Peter's companion but doesn't say when or where. The article does show when he was with Paul but not when he was with Peter. Should it say he was Paul's companion?Nitpyck (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

He's recorded as being Paul's companion in the Acts of the Apostles, and traditionally also associated with Peter in Rome. (The tradition that says that Mark wrote the gospel also says he did it under the direction or with the assistance of Peter.) Tb (talk) 22:15, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not the apostel Mark.S711 (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no apostle Mark, at least, no Mark in the NT is labelled as such. The tradition in question, which is what the intro is about, is the tradition that the John Mark in Acts is the author of the Gospel, and wrote it as a disciple of Peter and under his direction. The Mark the article is about is that traditional figure. Tb (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

page name

An editor recently moved the page without discussion to Saint Mark. Aside from the obvious disambiguation problems, this also broke consistency with John the Evangelist, Luke the Evangelist, and Matthew the Evangelist. In addition, "saint" in article titles is disfavored, though the title is used in the lead. See, for example, Ignatius of Loyola, Thomas Aquinas, or James the Less. Tb (talk) 21:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Peter in the lead

The tradition which says that the Gospel was written by Mark also says that Mark did so as a disciple of Peter, from Rome, under his direction. Apart from this tradition (which also identifies the author as the John Mark of Acts), there is no reason to give the name "Mark" to the author at all. The place for a discussion of the authorship of the Gospel is over at Gospel of Mark, which already has a full discussion. This article instead is about the traditional figure of Mark the Evangelist. A recent editor has altered the "discipile of Peter" language repeatedly to say that this is "an alternative" account of the authorship of the Gospel. If it is, then it's not relevant here, because this article is about the traditional Mark the Evangelist--who may indeed be only a traditional figure with distant and dusty connections to any real people--but it is not about the authorship of the Gospel of Mark. Tb (talk) 21:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Said editor has said on my talk page that this article is "actually" about one "Mark the Apostle". I am rather unclear who this "Mark the Apostle" is supposed to be, or why an article titled "Mark the Evangelist" should be understood as about "Mark the Apostle". Tb (talk) 21:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Please be civil. Take a look: [1]S711 (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Then we could have a Mark the Apostle forward, as we have Luke the Apostle. Note, however, that the source you refer to establishes what I've been saying: it identifies the author of the Gospel with the John Mark of Acts, and as a disciple of Peter. Tb (talk) 21:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I changed a somewhat hard to find and unelaborated reference to Saint Irenaeus' Against Heresies with one that is more detailed and linkable. I believe this is the original source concerning the relationship between Mark and Peter. Jason3777 (talk) 00:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Also see Acts 12:12 (as mentioned in the article) and 1 Peter 5:13 - "as does Mark, my son," per the Encyclopedia of Early Christianity 2nd edition, p. 720 Jason3777 (talk) 04:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

no it is not peter but mark

first of all this bible was written to tell romans about Jesus Christ our lord and it was written with very small details as in "green grass" in chapter 6 and peter charter was a very ken static person that could not catch all this small details. also in chapter 14 he takes about "14:51 A young man was following him, wearing only a linen cloth. They tried to arrest him, 14:52 but he ran off naked,74 leaving his linen cloth behind." this young man was thought by the tradition to be mark and that this night peter was not aware with what happing except with Jesus emotionally only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.53.144.98 (talk) 23:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what parts of the article you're addressing. Tb (talk) 17:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Moving the refimprove flag to cover only the last section.

Could we move this to cover the "Fate of his remains" only?

Changing it to read:

The first two sections seem well documented and where they are not (4 statements) there have been added [citation needed] flags. There are 20 citations in the first two sections of the article. I think we should move the banner to above the last section instead of having it at the top and applying to the entire article. We should also consider deleting the statements with older refimprove dates (August and December 2008). Jason3777 (talk) 04:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved the "needs additional citations for verification" to cover ONLY the last section "Fate of his remains" (keeping the same date), since there were no objections.Jason3777 (talk) 01:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

One more thing.... Why is the "Fate of his remains" section so long. It is about a half of the entire article, and is unsourced. This section is much too long. Jason3777 (talk) 05:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I rearranged the Biblical and traditional info

I moved the uniquely Coptic traditions to the end and placed the shared traditions in the beginning for better organization. I also removed the unsourced statement: "the one who hosted the disciples in his house after the death of Jesus and into whose house the resurrected Jesus Christ came (John 20)."Jason3777 (talk) 02:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I undid the restoration of the above (still) unsourced sentence by User:Lanternix. The date on the citation needed was December 2008. I have no problem including this sentence as long as it has a source. And I have tried, but have not been able to find a source. So before adding it back to article add a citation listed in the reference section. Jason3777 (talk) 05:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence. Jason3777 (talk) 05:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)