Talk:Meskhetian Turks

Population issue

Meskhetian Turks, who left Ahiska before Stalin exile, like my family, are not counted when calculating the total population. The numbers only include the ones that were exiled.

That way, I believe total Ahiska Turks are close to a million.--hnnvansier (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

   hnnvansier- could you please give me some information about your family, where they move from Ahiska. 
   As you write i also believe that total Population of Ahiska Turks are very close to a Million. 
   Also we must not forget many Ahiska Turks was forcebly writen as an Azerbaijanian because of Internal & External 
   Politicts of Soviet Union. --ilhamtr (talk) 05:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with this article?

This article seem to be the subject of controversy regarding who the Mesketian Turks are. There has been some edit warring, and I just removed a recently-added {{NPOV}} tag. The article as it stands gives no indication of why it would be the subject of these kinds of edits. Is there doubt that these people exist, or about their origins, or what has happened to them? The article looks fine as it is, but apparently some people don't like it and have not been stating their reasons for this. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 14:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The article seems to represent the PanTurkist point of view. Most sources say that they are prdominantly Moslem georgians, plus some Kurds, Hemshins (Armenian Mosles) and some Turkicspeaking tribe among them. This article says ignorantly that they are for the major part Turks (what ever this may be) and a minority is Georgian or Kurd. This is absurd because even over the border in Turkey, the population is predominantly Moslem Georgian, with some Kurds, and Hemshins. I think the article should be heavily revised using more sources and possibly opposing views. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to call them "Turks" at all, as indicated in the title and their classification as a Turkic people? How were they classified by the State Department when they were admitted to the United States? RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 05:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

This is how they are called by everybody and therefore this is how they should be called in Wikipedia. Alæxis_¿question? 06:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to call them Turkic people because of their genealogy and the fact that they most do not speak Turkish/Turkic (at least not any more) but Russian.Those who come back to Georgia call themselves Georgians. I do not know aboiut US state department but I do not think that that should be a criterium. They were called Turks by Stalin as a pretext to deport them. If they were called Georgians, it was hard to deport them in a context of rising Georgian nationalism, but being Turk in fact the nationalists who saw Turkey as a historic enemy would be appeased.

In the coming years the Georgian intelligentia opposed this labeling by Stalin and championed their return to Georgia of these fellow Georgians. However during the demise of the Soviet Union and independence, and the coming economic hardships, these voices were not loud. Georgia now did not really want to have 300 000 people and could not feed them. Moreover if they were really Turks, it would give Turkey a tool to bring Georgia under the Turkish sphere of influence. Bringing them back as Turks in a region which is now predominantly inhabited by Armenians, would also create another unwelcome ethnic conlict in Georgia.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So how they should be called in your opinion? Alæxis_¿question? 07:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Meskhetian Moslem Georgians would be good in my opinion, but if you want a totally neutral term, that would be Meskhetian Moslems, adding in the text that meskheti is a region of Georgia. This way the reader understands that their geographical origin perior to deportation should be sought in Georgia.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Are there other people called Meskhetians, such that we have to further distinguish this group as Meskhetian Muslims? Is the entire group called by those who use the term Meskhetian Turk in fact Muslim? RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 18:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Nowadays in meskheti live also Christian Georgians and Christian Armenians. Most Christian Georgians there are from elsewhere. Georgian Christian nationalists- or if you want to call them chauvinists- argue that Meskhetians are a tribe of Christian Georgians. Possibly they refer to earlier times of the same (sub/)ethnic group when they were still Christians. But it is quite possible that there lived also Christian Georgians among Moslems when the latter got deported. Yes all the people who got deported and were called Meskhetian Turks were/are Moslems. Often Turk or Tatar in the Russian empire were words which were equally (and somehow pejoratively) used for Moslems--Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

You have a point and I myself don't have anything against 'Muslim Meskhetians'. Yet I'd like to see scholarly sources calling them so. Alæxis_¿question? 19:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I can bring you sources in which they themslevs express objections towards the designation Meskhetian Turks--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

If it is so then it should be mentioned in the article. However it's not enough to justify the renaming of the article. For example most of the inhabitants of Transnistria don't like this name of their country. Even though they prefer "Pridnestrovie" the article in Wikipedia is called this way since this is the name that is used most often in English-language sources. Alæxis_¿question? 18:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Naming and labelling is indeed a matter of power relations--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It is one thing for a people to prefer their region to be called "By the Dniester" rather than "Beyond the Dniester," but for an article to call people Turks who are not in fact Turks is a different matter, one that extends beyond ethnic preference. If they are Turks, then the article should remain as it is; if there is legitimate, scholarly debate over whether they are Turks, but everyone agrees that "Meskhetian Muslims" refers to this group and only this group, it seems that WP:NPOV requires the latter page name. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 00:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It is a difficult matter, because there might be no concesnsus and the people might be divided about which terminology to be used. Remember that this collectivity is a recent Stalin era creation. Nevertheless there exists great extent od subject intragroup concensus that the name Meskhetian Turks is wrong. PanTurkists often call them Ahiska Turks after the provincial capital of Meskheti, the town of Akhaltsikhe (Georgian= New fortress). Those with Georgian POV do not want to call them Turks at all. The other thing is that talking about namings: I remember that they were still called Meskhetians (without any thing elese) in the European TV and press in the early 90s.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

These two articles (found via Google) might be of interest. Both cover some problems regarding the phrase Meskhetian Turks, but both employ it. [1] [2]. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 02:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I have found interesting article/ papers too. Right now I am busy, and in addition I do not appear much on Wikipeida, because some people admins have made a virue out of harassing me right now, and will revert all my edits any way. I will post those sources soon.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you should watch out for terms like this: "Georgian Christian nationalists- or if you want to call them chauvinists." It is equally xenophobic and chauvinistic to attack people of other faith is such a manner. I would suggest you to town down your attacks and negative labeling on other people of Christian faith and use reliable references next time. I never heard the term of Muslim Meskhetians, the term Turk-Meskhetians is a common one but you might be right. Ancient Meskhetians (Meskhebi, მესხები) were Georgian tribes who converted t Islam. I agree that most of the Meskhetians are not Turks ethnically. But they do speak some degree of Turkish (especially ones in Azerbaijan). Iberieli (talk) 00:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Dzamo Kartvelo, Gagimarjos. Mets Kartveli var, magram es ar aris chveni sakme. My usage of those words were exactly because I did not want to generalize the whole Georgian nation. But do you deny the fact that there are Christian georgians who do not regard Moslem Georgians as equal? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes zmao, I deny that. Because im Georgian Christian and I treat our Muslim brethren as equal (so do most of the people in Georgia). Gagimarjos zamia! Iberieli (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

>>>Most do, but for some people a true Georgian is a Christian one. Note that I said some!--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Who cares what some think? Meskhetians are Georgians and not Turks. There are plenty of references for that. I'll add them as time will allow :). Cheers. Iberieli (talk) 01:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I re-wrote the paragraph on the US resettlement program to simplify it and update it. I was in Krasnodar frequently between 2004 and 2007, so let me address a few of the issues above from that perspective. I also think it's appropriate to refer to them as "Turks" since that is also what they call themselves. The U.S. and Russian authorities classify them as Meskhetian Turks (тюрки-месхетинцы). The group's first language is Turkish, although the language of their schooling was Georgian, Uzbek or Russian, depending on age, and their Russian language skills are strong since they lived in the USSR and then Russia. The resettlement program even used Turks (e.g. a Turkish-speaking citizens or ex-citizens of Turkey) as interpreters when possible. Mowplsu (talk) 03:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Turkish is not our first language. Most of us don't even speak understand Turkish. We have our own language that we refer to often as Turkish but we call ourselves Ahiska Turkleri and we recognize that our language is different. Much of our vocabulary is Russian and Uzbek. The grammar is Uzbek, Azeri and Turkish. We use a variety of different alphabets to write, usually the Uzbek, Russian or sometimes a variant very similar to Kazakh.

Some are Sunni Muslim, but not all. Quite a few are agnostic, while others are Christian like myself. I don't consider myself originally Turkish but Georgian. We just happened to pick up the Turkish language. Our culture is very Georgian. I would like for the article to say that our first language is Ahiskan Turkish and not Turkish since many Turks from Turkey would not understand us, and we would have a difficult time understanding them. 204.111.195.207 (talk) Miko —Preceding comment was added at 21:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello Miko. Thanks for your message. The problem is that, as far as I know, what you call Ahiska Turkish is not a language but a Turkic dialect significantly modified by contacts with other languages. If you could provide more sources, we could even start an article on this idiom. Regards, --Kober^Talk 21:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a passage from the Center for Applied Linguistics' 2006 report on the community, p. 23:

Meskhetian Turks speak an Eastern Anatolian dialect of Turkish, which hails from

the regions of Kars, Ardahan, and Artvin. Their language also resembles in significant respects Azerbaijani. While the Meskhetian Turk dialect uses mostly Turkish words for everyday life and for agriculture and animal husbandry, many other words have been borrowed from the languages that Meskhetian Turks have been in contact with during Russian and Soviet rule. Among other languages, these include Georgian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Russian, and Uzbek. From Georgian, for example, Meskhetian Turkish has borrowed such words as /kurka/ (fruit), /satxi/ (cheese from sheep’s milk), /kakal/ (eye ball), and /kort/ (hill). Meskhetian Turks who have lived in Kazakhstan and in Uzbekistan have borrowed Kazak and Uzbek words, especially those referring to foods. Examples include /kəsmə/

(noodles), /toxic/ (intestines), and /xımız/ (a drink made from mare’s milk).

To my knowledge at least, I have never seen any publication in our language. You might think it is a dialect, but it is a variant of Turkish just like Azeri Turkish is a variant of Turkish. Yes, it is considered a separate language but they are still mutually intelligible to a certain extent. No one that I know of reads in Turkish (from Turkey). When we write we use a variety of different Cyrillic Alphabets. Our grammar is very different. Normally, when somethings is published, it is published either in Russian or Uzbek. The Qur'an is only to be read in Arabic, according to the Muslim leaders. And since there has never been an permanent alphabet constructed for our Turkish, no one ever writes with it. I can give you several examples of Turkish words compared with Meskhetian words, and also compare significant differences in grammar, that make it look similar to Azeri Turkish as well. 204.111.195.207 (talk) Miko —Preceding comment was added at 21:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Religion

• • • Not upsetting status quo in places of resettlement and ensuring people’s safety. Early warning system is highly desirable to monitor relations of repatriates with the local population, especially in Meskheti. Current population of Meskheti constitutes a diverse and sensitive group. It comprises such groups as indigenous Christian Meskhetians, ... - Taken from the Meskhetian link in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.36.196 (talk) 22:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Ahiska Turks - Ethnic Turks from Georgia's Ahiska - Ahaltsihe region.

While reading the discussion i realize that most of Writers are not Ahiska Turks, which makes points of veiws one sided. So decided to open a new talk page. Firstly they are Muslim Turks, and certainly not Muslim Georgians. Secondly they were Exiled because they were Turks, Bordering with Turkey. Then they Never call themselves as Meskhetians, they use Ahiska Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilhamtr (talk • contribs) 21:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)