Talk:Caucasoid

Bullshit articles about discredited ideas

As far as I've read, there's not much agreement amongst social scientists that racial categories are based on physical characteristics. In fact, afaik, most of the social science literature got over terms like "cacausoid, mongloid, negroid" and so forth by the time of the first world war.

I think that these articles are misleading and inaccurate. I will be VfDing in a couple days unless there are some good explanations for why I'm wrong.

--Defenestrate 15:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Many concepts of race are discredited, but it is valid to document them for historical purposes. See Race and Race (historical definitions) for example.

I doubt "19th century" or "pre-WWI" apply to the -oid terms, simply because the words were coined later. Most allegedly scientific work on race was pre-WWI, but used older terms like Caucasian race, Negro, Mongolian.

Most citations of Caucasoid etc. seem to be to Carleton Coon. I think this is because he popularized the -oid terms, or it may be because of his continuing popularity with those with certain views on race. (I will avoid calling them all racists) I haven't seen any indication of who actually coined the -oid terms.

I do agree the articles Caucasoid etc. suffer badly from discussion of racial issues outside these bounds and resulting edit wars, which should actually be happening in Caucasian race, Race (historical definitions), Scientific racism, Afrocentrism, and others, where they will benefit from more scrutiny.

I have considered these alternatives:

• Keep Caucasoid etc. but with clear limitation to historical context and those associated with this specific term.
• Merge Caucasoid into Caucasian race and make Caucasoid a redirect.
• Merge Caucasoid, Negroid etc. into one article like Racial terms ending in -oid and leave redirects
• Merge Caucasoid, Negroid etc. into an existing article like Carleton Coon or Race (historical definitions) and leave redirects

I don't think simply deleting Caucasoid etc. will work. They will just get recreated later and return to the present situation.

Note Mongoloid has been more stable, with a larger amount of mostly less controversial material about East Asians. --JWB 18:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Validity of human races

Describing "caucasoid" as a race assumes something of what you're trying to explain, as there is a serious question whether "race" is anything beyond a social construct.

Bias

Once again we are doing a wonderful job elaborating on the White people of the subject matter, but we are still stuck at stubbing around with the other groups. Let's not keep the Negroid and Australoid groups stubbed if we can help it. Obviously there many of us that do not consider Dravidians to be "caucasoids", and leaving the "Negroid" stub ambigious in it's reasoning will need to be clarified in order to stop this bias from continuing.

Cites or clarification for vague statements

"19th century anthropologists": The article should have less vague information about this. Did the -oid names for races really have any popularity before Coon? Race has a good discussion of the 20th century history of racial concepts, which should be extended further back.Coon is a single source and one that has not been in very good repute for the last few decades. He should be listed as one historically occuring POV

[1] says that "Caucasoid" is not in current scientific use. I would agree with this impression. It might be better to use less present tense in the article.

"50% of anthropologists use sub-races": Race says that only about half of anthropologists even subscribe to any sort of concept of race, so there seems to be a discrepancy here. Again, cites are needed. I don't know of any use of the Coon subrace terms by current scientists. On the web, they seem to be found on websites of racist groups, and on discussion boards. Coon is a single source and one that has not been in very good repute for the last few decades. He should be listed as one historically occuring POV balanced with other POV.

"Dravidians and Ethiopians are more closely related to Negroid and Australoid peoples than Nordic people": It would be more accurate to say that South Indians and Ethiopians are thought to have ancestry from both Caucasoid immigrants and indigenous (or at least earlier resident) peoples, not necessarily limited to currently surviving Negroid and Australoid types. For example, Capoid features were earlier found much farther north in East Africa.

--JWB 21:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I removed this paragraph: "Basically anyone that has round eyes, and has skin that is any hue except jet black. In essence this a way for Eurocentric scholars to lay claim to any civilization in Africa and the middle east. This is called a diffusionist theory of the Caucasoid race and ignores that many of these groups have less in common with the unquestioned groups than with those outside their groups. For example, Dravidians and Ethiopians are more closely related to Negroid and Australoid peoples than Nordic people."

1-Even Jet Black people could be considered "caucasoid", anthropologists use skulls not pigmentation to classify ethnics. 2-speaking about "eurocentric scholars" is POV. 3-Gentically: Ethiopians are closer to Caucasoids than to negroids, Physically Their skull is caucasoid (A phenotype that has been favoured through natural selection over the negroid skull). --Agurzil 22:06, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

-Dravidians are not a race. Dravidian is a language family. The Dravidian-speaking peoples, contrary to popular view, are not of one homogenous racial type. They are of varying racial types. Many of them are of distinctly Caucasoid physical type while many of them have Australoid type. Some are even Negritoid, not Negroid. The Brahuis and the Andhras, in particular, have Caucasoid features. The Tamils and the Malayalis have Australoid features. The Coorgs of Karnataka have West Asian/European features, uncommon for a Dravidian-speaking people. But none of the dravidian-speaking peoples were or are Negroid. Negroids only live in the continent of Africa. So dont call them Negroid.

Race (historical definitions) has some summary of 19th century anthropologists' views, so I am going to link it from this article. It doesn't look like there was a consensus on 4 as the number of races in that period, or the 20th century for that matter.--JWB 23:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Another note: Indo-European, Semitic, and Uralic are currently considered to be names of language families, not of biologically defined human populations. They were often conflated in the 19th and early 20th century, but since then scholars have been careful to make the distinction between the two concepts.--JWB 23:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Consistency

Since these -oid classifications are determined by anthropologically based on skull sizes (and since you seem to follow strictly those skull sizes to categorize the subgroups in the article,) it has been clarified IN the article.

Ethiopians do share genetically more with Kenyans than they do with British and Frenchmen. Whatever DNA markers are being used, and I have discussed this before, are more likely politically chosen and not chosen from a neutral perspective.

The "Ethiopid" race theory is based on the assumption that the Ethiopians came about independantly of the other Black groups. However, everything else points against that. Firstly their language, and their history. They may be the oldest group in the world, and it's backwards to point to them as a "non-black" Caucasoid group.

I made sure to indicate the bias by pointing out that African Americans on average are more "caucasoid" in skull and DNA type than Ethiopians. The DNA of Black Americans is more mixed with Europeans, Nordics, and Alpines than the Ethiopian DNA.

Dravidians are known also to share more in common with Negroids than with Caucasoids. http://www.dalitstan.org/books/sudroid/

I do believe there is a "selective" method of interpretation that's being used here to classify ethiopians and dravidians with Frenchmen and Germans. I officially dispute the neutrality of this article while Dravidians and Ethiopians are placed in classification with the Caucasoids. The fact is that the skill variations in Caucasoids is far too wide to be considered distinct.

Although I do respect the earlier references from which the skull information is based, I am of the viewpoint that the source material itself is not a sensible way to classify the groupings. For example, I know that ancient Jewish skulls are very different in shape and size from a European skull. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=852&letter=C

The Egyptian and Ethiopian also show more similarity with skull shape and size based on how you interpret the results. http://www.africawithin.com/diop/origin_egyptians.htm

You can either interpret wide varieties of skulls as Caucasoid, and narrow the Negroid group into the typical "prothagism" or "projected facial profile", or you can find a more sensible way to classify Caucasoids that is consistent with how the group is really established, not how it "should" be. The famous Omo skulls in Ethiopia show the same characteristics as the "Negroid" types and those are 200,000 years old.

I believe that there is a better way to handle this article, because classifying Ethiopians as Caucasoid is simply not realistic, and is only done to take the civilized history of Ethiopia outside of the Black African circle and set it within a Eurocentric sphere.

So for example, here is one of the more decepively detailed websites online that seem to show an unbiased comparison of all three groups: http://www.theoryofuniverse.com/man/races/races-skulls.htm But if you look at the first pictures at the top, you can see HOW the skulls are situated (not to mention that they are copies, not originals). The negroid skull is situated so that the lower area is closer to the camera than the other two skulls, therefore it exaggerates the prothagism, or the lower profile, as to "prove" visually. Also notice that the Negroid skull is situated in the profile at an angle, and also notice that the mongoloid skull has the same slanted cranial profile.

SO what needs to be done is more balanced approach and less intent on maintaining a flawed 19th century status-quo.

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• I won't discuss the whole thing with you, I will just show you that ethiopians are closer to caucasoids than to negroids: this is an mtdna plot http://img43.echo.cx/img43/9388/27mh.jpg and this a Y-dna plot http://tinypic.com/5chrhi (Hammer et al., Proc Natl Acad Sci, 2000), here are some other studies using different techniques:

"COL1A2 Study on Amhara and Oromo Ethiopians":"The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position." Ann Hum Biol. 2002 Jul-Aug;29(4):432-41.

"Apolipoprotein Study of Ethiopians": "Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin." uman Biology 75.2 (2003) 293-300

As you can see, classifying Ethiopians as negroids is not at all realistic, they are a mix of negroid and caucasoid where their pigmentation and hair texture is negroid but their skull is caucasoid. --Agurzil 12:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

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Racial classification is based on skulls, whether it is caucasoid or negroid or mongoloid, you are trying to mislead the reader by referring only to caucasoids, I replaced it with race.

I have never seen someone classifying African americans as caucasoids, and it would be wrong to classify them as solely negroid; they are predominantly negroid and few of them have a intermediate or caucasoid skulls (by recombination of the caucasoid genes). Therefore your comment about african-americans being cuacasoid is wrong, it is clear that you have never seen an ethipian to say that they are less caucasoid then AA.--Agurzil 12:19, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

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Racial classification is not based on skulls. Throughout the past 300 years, skulls have not been the scientific way to classify people. Skulls are now being used to reclassify race for political and social purposes. I actually live next door to an Ethiopian, and I have quite a few Ethiopian friends. We spoke about this, they laughed. "We have a culture that they want, that's why they want us to be white." One also mentioned someone named Mulugeta Seraw from Portland. Racial classification is based on many things, and it's subjective. The "caucasoid" word in this article does not refer exclusively to skulls and if you look up the word in all of the online dictionaries (as well as negroid, and mongoloid) none of the definitions will agree with your conclusion, although a few will incorporate your method as one component of it.

Another contradiction you prsent is this: You acknowledge that African Americans are mixed and you also acknowledge that Ethiopians are mixed, but HOW you acknowledge both mixtures is different. Recombination is used for the Af-Americans and "mix" is used for Ethiopians.

Here is where I think the problem lies. You have two groups of Black people (Ethiopians and Af-Americans). One group mixes with other intermediately "caucasoid" group. While the other mixes with an extreme caucasoid group. If the African American mixes with the extreme caucasoid group, and the Ethiopian mixes with the less extreme and more intermediate group, how then can you conclude that the Ethiopian (who obviously shows more Black features) is Caucasoid, and the African American is not?

1. You can exclude those African Americans that are very caucasoid in appearance thereby skewing the results. 2. You can exclude those Ethiopians that are very negroid in appearance thereby skewing the results.

These two methods of exclusion are the methods that are used to prop up the position you hold. It is not based on a neutral method, but a subjective "feeling". The Ethiopians are not caucasoids, and most of them do not have 'caucasoid' skulls unless you expand the definition of 'caucasoid' and expand the cranial measurements to include their group. That is what has been done.

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• Most ethiopians are Aethiopid (Caucasoid skull), I did not say All of them are Aethipid, I was speaking about The Aethipid sub-race.

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And I am trying to explain to you that the "Aethiopid" term is a misrepresentation of saying that they are either "mixed" or it's another way to incorporate them into the Caucasoid group. The "Aethipid" subrace skulls are not of the older bronze age or neolithic periods. Most Ethiopians are NEgroid.

The problem here is that we have no Ethiopian skulls to compare so we can settle the matter. http://www.internet-milano.it/ethiopia/img/itinerario/img180g.jpg - there is no way you are going to convice that this is a Caucasoid.

Here is the Omo Skull from 200,000 years back http://www.tourismethiopia.org/images/homoskull.jpg this is not a Caucasoid skull.

Here is more evidence that the ethiopians were anatomically more like Negroids than like Caucasoids http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/06/11_idaltu.shtml

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Skull shape was emphasized in the 19th century. Current research on race relies primarily on DNA, with support from linguistics and dental patterns.

200,000 year old skulls are long before differentiation into the current races.

"Caucasoid" is a somewhat dated technical term and not synonymous with "white". Can we keep focused on describing the historical meanings of the term, instead of fruitless and anachronistic arguments about who is "white", which if they have to be had, belong elsewhere.

I have never heard the "Ethiopid" term before. If it really needs extensive discussion, which I doubt, that should happen in its own article.

The section now being disputed is incongrously followed by a list of the Coon European subracial types, which goes no farther south than Iran. This is followed by yet another unrelated section discussing "Eurasiatic Supercluster" etc. The article now is an incoherent hodgepodge.--JWB 00:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Take Ethiopia out

Since Ethiopia is not listed in Coon's directory, it needs to be taken out of here. DNA analysis does not conclude that Ethiopians are more closely related to British than they are to Kenyans. Take it out.

Huh? Who ever claimed such a thing? Bastie 13:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The underlying contradiction

The other writer tried to affirm that Ethiopians are considered "caucasoid" because even though they show negroid traits like kinky hair, black skin, cultural identity, and features considered Black (or negroid), their skulls are "caucasoid" in their shape.

This begs the obvious question: Where are those lightskinned, white looking people with negroid skulls at? Italians, Yemeni, East Indians, Egyptians, and all the other old world people who mixed with Black Africans somehow escaped having "negroid" skulls. Yet again we are reaffirming the old myth "Caucasoids went into Africa, but the Negroids didn't really come out."

I know what is going to be said next "There were negroid skulls and people outside of Africa in early written history, maybe 2%, slaves, and peon henchmen soldiers, but no more than 2%."

This kind of illogical bias has to end. Do not diffuse "caucasoid" to include measurements that encompass people who are obviously mixed. The range of skull shapes flows from a gamut, not from stratified sub-classes. The measuring lines were differentiated to ensure that whites would not be mistakenly classified as negroid, but the opposite has been done for their sake. Obviously Black Africans and East Indians have been classified as Caucasoid because the few or so Europeans whose features are also in the middle (or partly negroid) are offended.

To make it short or sweet, the slick-Eurocentric method is this: "Tis better to have black caucasoids in Africa, than to have white negroids in Europe"

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• You are writing with your emotions... try to be more objective,

1-who gives you the right to classify ethiopians as Black? Who? YOU ARE THE ONE deciding to classify them as BLACK, I don't mind if any one classifies himself whatever he wants but one has to be objective, their appearance, their genes shows that their FAR from being Black.

2-It's silly to compare italians to ethiopians, Ethiopians are a stabilized mixed race people, Italians have few negroid admixture and shows in a minority of the population, Coon himself noticed that.

3-As for egyptians, it's very easy to find negroid influence in them, no one denies that. I guess you are speaking to a wall.

4-Stop propagating lies about afro-americans, they have never been classified as caucasoid, maybe fiew of them have been (which is correct, recombination always gives "pure" types among the mongrels).

Coon includes Aethiopids (not all ethiopians) in the caucasoid Race, that's why I will revert it. --Agurzil 11:30, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Political and racial motivation

The Ethiopians themselves classify themselves as Black, not as Caucasoid. Their appearance shows them identical to other Black people. We can go through a whole bunch of online pictures, You can go all over the Washington D.C. area (where there are a high amount of Ethiopians) and I can rest assured, without hearing an accent, you will not be able to tell them apart from African Americans. You will be able to tell the difference between them and Italians, Germans, Syrians, and "other" caucasoids. It's silly to compare Italians to Ethiopians. Being a mixed-race people does not mean "Caucasoid, not negroid" being a mixed race people means you either include the group into BOTH groups, or into NEITHER group. You keep wanting them to be "caucasoid" instead of acknowledging they are negroid (and from your 'objective' position, just as likely negroid as caucasoid). I do not know what lies about african americans you accuse me of telling. I KNOW they have never been classified as caucasoid, that's my POINT. Emotional or not, I am pointing out the contradiction of placing a mixed-black Ethiopian group into the caucasoid supergroup just because they are "mixed", while NOT putting the Af-Americans into the same supergroup, even though they are ALSO mixed with even more highly concentrated Caucasoid ancestry. Coon's "Aethiopids" are notihing more than this: One stratified classification of the larger Ethiopian population has skulls that are similar to Europeans. This is in contrast to the same fact that some Europeans have skull shapes that are Negroid. So again we are having a circular discussion and you are not addressing what I brought up, but instead accusing me of lying. In effect you are filibustering the conversation instead of addressing the core of what I am saying.

Ethiopians are not caucasoids, you may find some skull shapes in the wide variety of Ethiopians that measure similarily to caucasoid skulls, but that alone is insufficient to make them of the "caucasoid" group. The measurements of the mythical "Aethiopoid" group are of that the dimentions are so far on the edge of what is considered caucasoid that the nature of the classification should at least be questioned. They are not "dinaric" or "nordic", they are not "small-mediterranean"... if they ARE caucasoid, then figure out which caucasoid sub-group they most likely resemble. Saying that they are their "own" caucasoid group is disingenious and misleading. You do not put a singlarity into "your" group just because you feel like it.

So here is what I think you do, whether or not I am emotional about this topic: You know that there are a wide variety of Ethiopians. But you, like Coon, and like many others, would say that the negroid shaped Ethiopan skulls "dont count" for matters of "objective" classification. So you will find a way to seperate them out and stratify them. Then find a wild 1% chance link to some people way up in Europe. That is not objective. They are in the middle of Africa, and surrounded by other Africans. There has been no explanation as to how they ended up being Caucasoid, and this silliness of making them Caucasoid didn't start until their rich culture was appreciated by the Italians in the beginning of the 20th century. That is politically motivated.

That is why, when Ethiopia is put into the article, I will remove it again.

Biased classification

We all can agree that the people of the world are psychologically biased to identify as far away from Black as possible and as close to white as possible, with exceptions mostly in Black Americans. The legacy of slavery and colonialism has caused people, Europeans and non-europeans alike to find ways to get some people who had no real link to Europe to have a allegorical link to some ancient European ancestors. And when I say allegorical I mean it. It's as if the present day experiences of the people, and their history have no meaning other than to somehow reshape a greater "caucasoid" presence. The whole caucasoid "supercluster" is nothing more than an attempt to dehumanize the Equatorial Africans. The thing has everybody in it except Black Africans. And it's to reinforce the darwin-racist ideology that natural selection allowed the Caucasoid to diverge all over the world, while the dumb african remained stagnant and slow. (yeah if that's an emotional response so what, it's accurate, its the underlying meaning and we all know it). The fact is, you cannot justify this redefinition of Caucasoid to include Ethiopians. They exist wholly within the sphere of Negroid groups and some mixed groups like the Yemeni and southern arabs. There may be some caucasoid admixture but thats not enough to draw this conclusion. This is called hyper-diffusionism. It is similar to using the one-drop rule, but only it's being used to create caucasoids all over the place instead of making anyone black. Keep in mind though, in our world we are driven to one-step-away-from idolizing light skin and european features, not idolizing black features. Racial and social classifications are designed all over Latin America, Middle East and India to safeguard or glorify the "white". One moves 'up' towards a white classifiaction in Brazil and India. Being poor is being "black" in Brazil.

And yes I know we are talking about "caucasoid" and "skulls", and my response is that this definition is not the widely held definition, and no where in this article is the narrow vision to rely on skulls justified.

For example, earlier someone mentioned that the hair type and skin color may be "negroid" but since the skulls are NOT negroid, then we should consider them to be caucasoid. Ok fine. Then explain this contradiction by Coon himself:

"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day." Coon - The races of Europe.

It's obvious at this point that Coon is not sure how to classify them and obviously cannot find a consistent or universal method that can stick with the Ethiopian. BUT he tries very hard. You can see the bias at the end "which persists, despite"... oh hopefully those caucasoids in Ethiopia will hold out before it's too late... oh dear!

So let's follow coon consistently "while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established since the hair is definitely not negroid." Ok then neither should a lack of prognathism and nose form suggest a caucasoid tendency, since the hair is definitely negroid. Consistency.

For anyone to come in here and try to put Ethiopians, the oldest Black people on Earth, as Caucasoids is as crafty as Afrocentricists trying to make every other European ethnic group "black".

Now if you don't see the double standard of that, then you really are confused.

VANDALISM

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-I guess that you have understood nothing to what Wikipedia is, we are not scientists who have to impose our own beliefs to Wiki, we are here JUST to report what scinetists say, What I have done was quoting the work of S.Coon, NOT MY OPININON; if you have another source, mention it along with that of COON, NO ONE WANTS TO KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE, YOU ARE NOT AN ANTHROPOLOGIST.

-You still speaking with your emotions, you have yet not presented anything that proves what you say, I have proven to you that ethiopians are intermeidate just to shed light and remove the statemennt saying that ethipians are pure sub-saharans. I'm not here to prove that Ethipians are caucasoid, I'm here to report what Coon said about Aethiopids, if you think that Coon was mistaken, put a little comment of another anthropologist who says otherwise.

-Please Stop your Vandalism.

-have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress

--Agurzil 19:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

The Races of Europe

I've pulled the lengthy list of European "subraces" from Coon's book of this name. Besides only covering Europeans and not other Caucasoids, as the Carleton S. Coon article notes, "The book relied on an extremely typological view of race which was, even in its time, becoming seen as very much out of date." If anyone wants the list, it should go in another article.--JWB 22:33, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are MORE prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day." Coon - The races of Europe.

Coon in the same books does not even agree with your conclusion. Since negroid skull types does not justify to him to make the Badarians (egyptians) into Negroids, how on earth can you come to your own conclusions? The Ethiopians are not caucasoids, because the same rule applies. SOME OF The Ethiopian skulls are LESS prognathous than those of their successors, and have lower nasal indices, and would suggest an intermediate tendecy in the caucasoid direction, this cannot be established, because as coon states, the hair form is definitely not caucasoid.

The Vandalism and contradiction comes from your end. Removing it again.

Pictures

Agurzil - why don't you show some pictures of these skulls? I have looked everywhere online. I do not know if you are an anthropologist yourself or not. If you are, that's one thing. But if you are not, then you are in no better position than I am. You are getting too personal and not being consistent with the issue.

Ethiopians are considered intermediate. The problem of placing an intermediate group into Caucasoid is that it erroneously misleads the reader that they are not intermediate. Why put them into Caucasoid instead of Negroid? You didn't even reply to the information I posted, but merely accused me of vandalism. That's your emotion.

Enough of that. Address the issue. How can the Badarians (egyptians) have negroid skulls and still be caucasoid by hair texture, yet the Ethiopians who are intermediate (not even Caucasoid) be Caucasoid despite THEIR hair texture? In any event Coon does not base his classifications on skull shapes alone as I proved by quoting HIM. (It is not "good enough" to make exceptions only when it edifies one's own background).

Secondly, the description of Caucasoid is NOT based on skull shapes alone according to the wide variety of definitions we have access to, and you have shown no evidence as to why we must prove that otherwise.

So I am going to take it out again. YOu complain to the Wikipedia moderators or whomever has the power to influence. I WANT to see if they will react as biasedly as you do. I really really like Wikipedia, but if this is going to be another 'official' way to glorify white people by distorting history and pre-emptively shutting out legitimate criticism then I really want to know now.

Ethoipians are not Caucasoids. That's the bottom line. It's rediculous to try to prove otherwise. SOME, SOME show intermediate and lean towards Caucasoids but they are a MINORITY, not an equal 'third' or 'half' of the Ethiopian population. We are not going to play politics here. Show some pictures (and no, finding the one picture of one Caucasoid ethiopian saying that alone is proof isn't going to cut it either). I will do the same, I will post legitimate, and accurate pictures (copyrights withstanding of course)

And already biased websites should not be used. For example websites that support Ethopians are Caucasoid by writers that also support that IQ's are determined by race should not be used here.

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If you did not notice, you are debating with coon, whether you agree with him or not is not the subject of the article, you can do that in various discussion boards.

The question is: Did coon include the Aethiopid type into the caucasoid race? the answer is Yes. This is an important information which needs to be added.

I will not reply to any of your messages because it is irrelevent, whether I'm convinced or not, Coon's opinion has to be mentioned. Again, if you know another anthropologist who classifies the Aethiopid type as any thing else than Caucasoid, mention it. This is an encyclopedia; not an internet message board.--Agurzil 22:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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• Please, dear anonymous, register and get a username.(I can't see who writes what)
• As for "your vandalism", I have just reminded you the rules of Wikipedia and that you must behave properly, BTW I did not alert any moderator.
• I will just explain to you some things, If you think that a scientific is biased or outdated, bring another source and quote it (and state that it is newer if it pleases you). That's how it works on wikipedia, it allows each article to reach a close to perfect NPOV. And sir, you are not doing that, you are just deleting, putting your opinion (This is called non NPOV) and trying to debate the thing. I hope you understand me now.--Agurzil 23:10, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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• Ok, this is just for debate sake, have a look at this:

Craniofacial morphology (Brace et al., 1993) It clearly shows that Nubians and Somalians are intermediate between caucasoids and Negroids, For example, Somalis' skull are closer to european ones than they are to sub-saharans, Just imagine ethiopians who have more Caucasoid blood Somalis...

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For the last time, stop deleting the work of S.Coon. Privide another source but do not argue about coon's wrok. --Agurzil 20:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Somali are more Caucasoid than Ethiopians, firstly they have a closer link to the Arabian coasts of the red sea, and less contact with the Western frontiers of Ethiopia (which would be uganda and kenya). So why are you even putting up the notion that Somalis are "more" negroid than Ethiopians?

I also noticed something interesting. The extremeties of Craniofacial morphology tend to leave an impression that objectively makes no sense. The Somali and Nubian are incased in a tint that implies a "negroid" grouping. I know that cranial morphology is not a linear science and that the variations are such that there has to be a range for each group, not just a dot. In addition, the extreme amounts of detail (no surprise) of the Caucasoid groupings, where so many dots are gathered together indicate more care is done to meticulously plot each labeled group in relation to each other. The "negroid" groups are spaced far apart, they are not showing anything more to me than an already established viewpoint (status quo). For example, I do not know where a fulani is in relation to an Ashanti, or where a Wolof person is in relationship to a Hausa. But they are lumped into West Africans and plotted way over to the left. Nevertheless, the "grouping" of the Somali are indicated by a tint that puts them with the West Africans, not the Caucasoids.

Secondly, you still will not address Coon's own comments on the use of hair texture to outweigh the cranial measurements. You are not making any other stir in this discourse other than to flex potential status-quo muscle. If I don't acquiesce to your position and let you keep "ethiopia" in, then I'll probably be banned or cited for some rule breaking.

Can anyone else comment objectively on why and how coon used hair texture to reclassify negroid badarian skulls as caucasoids? Arguzil does not seem to be willing to deal with that.

Deleting Coon's work?

For the last time, stop deleting the work of S.Coon. Privide another source but do not argue about coon's wrok. --Agurzil 20:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about. I ADDED more from Coon's work, and you, not I, erased it.

Let's make it clear: You falsely accuse me then say "we will not chat about it" afterwards. How dishonest is that.

Coon's work deleted by Arguzil

This is what Arguzil is deleting from the page:

"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid." Coon - The races of Europe.

Why is Arguzil accusing me of deleting coon's work?

---

If every one were to post supposed contradictions of Scientists, Wikipedia will be transformed into a discussion board, quote another source that says the contrary or just leave the article as it is, you can speak about coon's Biases in his article, feel free to do so.--Agurzil 10:44, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

We are not dealing with different scientists. We are dealing with a contradiction made by (or on behalf of) one scientist. Coon uses hair texture, and you say that hair texture is not used. We are not going to just "let this one slide by" just because the matter at hand is "Caucasoid". == Handling of the article == I have been willing to modify the article to soften my position, and I have also addedd quotes from Coon (which I have noted in here three times.) Arguzil you have failed to respond, and you even --~~~~keep instructing to find more citations from other anthropologists to back up my position. Well I found Coon's own words himself, and you have ignored that. As far as I am concerned, that is where this conversation and article leaves off. I have also put the disputed neutrality into the article to again show a conciliatory position instead of just removing your content. But you removing Coon's quote then accusing me of doing that very thing is too offensive. I will not modify my position until this is resolved by a third party and your edits against my position will be reverted until it is handled. Also, Arugzil, do not try to label a legitimate POV dispute "vandalism". That is a pre-emptive attempt to assert your POV into the article. The dispute is whether or not Ethiopians should be considered Caucasoids solely on skull shapes, and whether or not coon relies solely on skull shapes to conclude whether or not an East African is "caucasoid" or "negroid". Until this is resolved by a third party, the content should not be removed unilaterally by Arugzil nor should I remove any of Arugzil's original content. Both POV should remain. ------------- I have displayed no personal POV, I have just Quoted Coon, Do not delete it and do not put excessive text. Please act as a gentlemen and get a username.--[[User:Agurzil|Agurzil]] 10:40, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC) ----- I have also quoted coon and you deleted what I quoted. Explain why is your quote from Coon more worthy to remain in the article than the quote from Coon that I have? Let's try this again. Maybe there is a disconnect. I am quoting Coon in the article. If you delete it, explain why. And for respect (as a gentleman( there is something you should be very familar with in academic discourse. You should not discriminately silence an opposing viewpoint and ignore the evidence brought. That indicates bias and prejudice. This will be the sixth time I have quoted Coon in this article and you have removed the quote. This will be the fourth time that you have pretended this hasn't happened. Do not tell me to "not delete" anything from Coon, after you delete a quote that is very pertinent to this article. Coon USES hair texture to conclude that a negroid type intermediate skull should be caucasoid. You put into the article that hair texture is not taken into account to classify races, and you cite coon as the sole source of your position. You are contradicting yourself very plainly. Address this, as a gentleman, and stop avoiding this glaringly obvious contradiction.

Physical anthropology

The Physical anthropology article is linked from this article. Therefore it should not be necessary to define physical anthropology in this article. --JWB 20:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Satisfied.

I like what has been added JWB. Thanks. I simply wanted the bias to be addressed. It makes no sense to pretend to be objective when the classifications are so obviously skewed to favor whatever the status-quo of the time wants to politically gain. At least you made note of that in your updates.

Thanks, I'm glad I was able to summarize some of your POV. I'm trying to follow Wikipedia's Neutral point of view guidelines and have all viewpoints concisely represented. I added more about Coon and his classification at Race (historical_definitions) which you might want to look at. The debate here has been informative and I think some of it could contribute to other pages where the level of detail would be more appropriate than here. --JWB 20:16, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have replaced Physical anthropology by craniometry, Also your quote of coon says you understood nothing to what he wrote, He clearly states that the Badarian is a caucasoid mediterranid (not negroid as you wrote) with slight prognatism , this slight/tendency to prognatism (that disappeared later) *could* be a result of admixture with negroids (even neolithic europeans had slight prognatism that disappeared with time), as to know if it was a result of admixture or not, he had a look at an external characteristic: the hair : 100% caucasoid, he concluded that the prognatism is not a result of admixture. But later (in the 70's) he studied them again and concluded that there was slight negroid admixture based solely on skulls.--Agurzil 00:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

Then you need to put this elaborate information and cite it. You reverted the article to it's older archaic state. Reinforcing the silly racial hierarchy. I am also offended by the "mongoloid brethren"... the term "brethren" itself implies a 19th century racial hierarchy perspective. The White in the lead, the Asian sidekick, etc. I am not tolerating it. You didn't reach a consensus, you unilaterally took it upon yourself to dominate this process. We are back to square one. Your analysis of Coon ignores the obvious. The original Egyptians were not caucasoids, the coon conclusions are biased as well, but even within the bias he acknowledges a negroid TENDENCY, not a "slight" prognathism.

-*-----

that's what he exactly says: "The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid." Badarians are predynastic and had *higher* nasal indices and were *more* prognatic than the dynastic egyptians, he asked himsel : "is it a result a negroid admixture", in formal english it's "is it a negroid tendency?", he couldn't know than he used hair texture to decide. In the 70's he did not use hair texture but more skulls and concluded that there was a negroid admixture, He did not say they were Negroids.--Agurzil 19:48, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Stop with the antiquated racism

Please stop trying to reinforce racial passions with the use of "Mongoloid brethren". Did you realize that the "brethren" link didn't even link to anything related to this article???

Swartbooi???

Contradiction

Coon and others have arbritarily set the middle ground, not in the middle between the Caucasoid and Negroid, but in fact somewhere into an area further into the negroid type. Here is how I can prove this.

Bi-racial people of Negroid (AFRICAN, not mixed) and Caucasoid (European) descent tend to have skull shapes and facial characteristics that now (as of 21st century reclassification) are considered "Caucasoid".

ALthough the 1-drop black rule is being condemned for people who are primarily caucasoid in appearance. What should not be done is to classify people who are mixed as Caucasoids. Again, going back to the Ethiopian issue, you should not consider "intermediates" as "Caucasoids". If you won't let them be classified in the same manner as those non-intermediate negroids that live among them then its nonsense to classify them as Caucasoids to have them fit with people far far away and people who didn't even exist when the Ethiopians and Egyptians were around.

So what is happening is that the "Caucasoid type" is expanded beyond a reasonable objective area. Here is an example: http://www.blackflix.com/articles/multiracial.html Take any of the African-European mixed people (Sade, Samantha Mumba, etc) and you will without a doubt consider them "caucasoid" based on the same screwed up mentality that motivates Arguzil to classify Ethiopians as "caucasoid" and Ancient Egyptians as Caucasoids.

Also, Arguzil you have for the millionth time avoided answering the issue. Coon does not say 'admixture' nor does he imply it. Straight hair is not a "caucasoid" trait that was passed down to Africans. Just like knappy hair is not a Negroid trait that was passed down to Scottish. You think we can classify Scottish people as "Negroid"? Many of them have large noses and pronagthism also.

So again, I will be removing over and over and over and over the Ethiopian link until you properly and accurately clarify it. And when I remove it once, and it automatically "reenters" I will remove it again. I am ashamed of the wikipedia moderators who allowed him to revert the article back after we had agreed on the changes back in May.

Dental patterns

The wording that the Caucasoid dental pattern is more "complicated" needs to be more elaborate. In this article, the racial issues underlining the association of some people with more complexity implies more intelligence, and that, psychologically is how these racial issues start up.

Do not use "more complictated", just instead explain the difference with the Caucasoid dental pattern.

"Division of the caucasians"

Can you tell me where is that classification from? --SM 11:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Physical anthropology revisited

The first paragraph of this article seems to indicate that physical anthropologists, as a group, recognize racial classification (particularly the of the -oid variety). According to this statement by the AAPA (statement on race), no such recognition is evident (two extracts follow: "Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past." "The geographic pattern of genetic variation within this array is complex, and presents no major discontinuity. Humanity cannot be classified into discrete geographic categories with absolute boundaries.") Unless contradictory evidence can be cited for this claim that physical anthropologists recognize this racial classification, I will change the wording.--Ove 23:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Please make sure the edit won't create new revert war, recently there were few on these topics. Pavel Vozenilek 01:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Sprachbund - asking for copyedit

Could someone knowledgeable copyedit the new additions, especially the virtually unknown word "sprachbund" (3 references by Google) and going off-topic arguing over concept of races. Thanks. Pavel Vozenilek 20:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

consistency problems

I am new to WP, and part of the problem I find with the "race" articles is that they not only lack consistency in tone but also in language. First of all, it makes sense that all of the -oid articles on racial classification use similar language. Secondly, it is important, in my opinion, to convey the controversial nature of any racial classification as the feature article race does. Many of the -oid articles seem to assume race as a given (with no citations I notice) while the main race article clearly indicates the controversy. I think it is imprudent, as with the most recent edit, to change the articles more in the direction of the former than the latter. The controversy of racial classification, even and especially that used by some physical anthropologists, must be conveyed in these articles not only to present the NPOV but also to remain consistent across WP. --Ove 04:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I would prefere to keep the -oid articles small and focused and leave political controversies to the main article. Pragmatically, the more controversies will be put here the more revert wars will follow and such wars typically do not increase quality or attract actual experts. I guess race article is doomed to wars anyway but -oid articles may be hopefully kept out. People seeking info on controversies may be simply directed to the hot article.

The sprachbund (language group in German, term not used widely) cleanup would help the quality more than bringing more controversies. Pavel Vozenilek 23:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Traits vs. classification

Although I agree with most of the recent edit, I do not like the intro sentence: "Caucasoid describes some anthropological traits" etc. Caucasoid does not describe traits (nor are these traits anthropological - maybe morphological or physical). The term describes individuals with such supposed traits, and more precisely it is used in a system of racial classification (because saying it describes individuals is a reification of the classificatory system). Consequently, I will revert back to the previous intro sentence in a few days unless someone has additional comments. --Ove 19:54, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I think "Racial classification" by itself can give the impression that individuals can be definitively classified into discrete races without overlap, which is an position you took issue with earlier. --JWB 19:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The way I see it is that "racial classification" at least gives some hint of the constructedness of the categories; I also think that all the -oid articles should be consistent in their language. In reality, I think that they should all be combined into one article with a disclaimer as to the scope and usage of the terms - but I am not sure there is consesus for this.--ove 15:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Physical anthropology does mean the study of physical human traits. This is different from the usual meaning of anthropology which usually connotes the study of culture. Omitting the word "anthropology" might be less confusing for some modern readers, but on the other hand "physical anthropology" is historic usage. Forensic osteology is also one of the few areas where categories like "Caucasoid" have a legitimate real-world use today.

It is important to note that an individual or population does not have to be assigned to a single category like Caucasoid, Mongoloid etc., but can have traits indicating a transitional type between two or more. Failure to do this has aggravated the debates about whether people of area X or Y are Caucasoid or not. "Racial classification" does give a strong impression of sorting people into one box or another.

I do not see how "racial classification" conveys that the categories are constructed, any more than "collection or pattern of traits" does. --JWB 02:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

skeletal and genetic traits

Could whoever wrote the section on skeletal and genetic traits please provide some references. In particular, I think it will be difficult to find a reputable source for this claim: "may be inherited from Neanderthaloid admixture." Also, could whoever wrote this sentence, please make some changes; it does not make much sense: "Caucasoids also possess a Western Eurasian dental pattern, where the frequency of dental traits that are observed in other major races is greatly reduced." --Ove 22:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

About South Asian Dravidians

Many anthropologists classify Dravidians as a Caucasoid group preceded by Australoids meaning that Dravidians are basicly a half Caucasoid half Australoid race. When the Aryans migrated to this region they most likelly mixed with the Dravidian people meaning Dravidians are most likelly mostly caucasoid.

Definition of Caucasoid (re: North Africans)

North africa term to broad. If there are going to be claims that North African are white I want a reference to a book or something. I also want to know what countries. It would be as ridculous to claim southern Europeans are white and provide no evidence besides a simple assertion that is not even from a book. I know however there are people from say Egypt who have caucasian appearance but I don't see this in Libyans who are for the most part very black in skin color and display close to no causoid chracrteristic except the ones who are mixed with ottoman

Actually the definition of Caucasoid or Caucasian from the dictionary I have says that it's a race that originates from Europe, West Asia (Middle East), and North Africa. Actually there are fair skinned Caucasians in North Africa, besides Northern Egypt. For example, there are Berbers who are fair skinned from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. --Gramaic | Talk 09:39, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to ask you what do you mean by fair skinned. A fair skinned person could be a light skinned African(Compared to other dark Africans) from North Africa or a light skinned white person compared to white people. Caucasoid and Cauacsian are two different things so that is not acceptable. Caucasian is definetly white where as caucasoid simply displays chracteristics of being white. Of course this is all debatable. You might say well thin lips are a cauacsoid trait. Someone else could say well most Kenyans have thin lips so does this make them white. Or people from certain parts of North Europe who have thick lips. They display negroid or afrcoid trait but it doen't make them black. However we would both say with certainity that kenyans are black(Africoid) and north europeans are white(Caucasian). I also don't know if middle eastern people could be classified as caucasoid. I would like to see some evidence of that if you are going to claim such things. I mean they aren't treated like other white people from a social point of view and I don't know of when whites settled the middle east. I thought they were almost like their own race or possibly from India but if people who don't look white, not treated as white, no white ancestry(well no evidence has been presented to suggest such so I can't simply assume considering all the other factors),genetically different and don't believe they are white(caucasoid), I need a little refernce pal. If you mean causoid as in having white features I agree with you if you show me evidence that say they have the same ancestry then yes also causacsian. However as it stands now no one has presented evidence that middle eastern are causasian(white ancestry). I'm not really even sure if we should say caucasoid. I mean we are bascialling say that they look more like white people than black people. Well lots of them do but ones from other places like Yemen don't. This also ignores the fact that there are other races than white and black and that they are possibly there own race.

     i SHOULD stay on topic here.  Berbers are not caucasian or no proof has been provided of this.  I looked around on other articles in wiki and they say they either orignate from east africa or possibly the mid east.  There are lots of people who are descendants of the Ottoman in places Algeria I know first hand.  These people however are not natives.  As for Tunisia I know there are quite a bit of whites there but most of them came from the same time the ones who came to algeria did.  Tunisia is a very diverse country and has people of different races their but as far as I know none of the original inhabitants from there are not white/caucasian.  I'm not saying they are pure Africans either but I don't know of any white precence their before the Romans or Greeks maybe.  As for Moroccans I don't see any evidence of large white/caucasian populations their past or today.  Considering that Mauratenains, Saharans, North Maliese and Nigeriens don't look like the West Africans we see here in America I don't see how Moroccans are white.  For one they display most afrocid triaits besides very dark skin and flat nose.  Something that none of the surrounding groups of Mauratenains, Saharans, North Maliese and Nigeriens don't have either.  Not to mention many east africans don't share these traits as well.  This seems to be a Bantu trait but I'm getting of track again.  I also could not find any period in history where white/caucasian invaded or moved to morocco in large number the past besides the colonial one.

By fair skinned, I do mean light skinned Caucasoids. Have a look at this site which is from Carleton S. Coon, and he defines Caucasoid as being European, Middle Eastern, and North African. As for you stating that you don't think that Middle Eastern people can be classified as Caucasoid, most Middle Easterners are Caucasoid. Especially in Middle Eastern countries such as Syria and Lebanon. Here are some white/caucasian/caucasoid people who have Syrian and Lebanese background; Nancy Ajram, Tiffany (singer), Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, and there's more where that came from. I currently don't have any extra information regarding Berbers, but when I get it I will let you know. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 20:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

"By fair skinned, I do mean light skinned Caucasoids." The term is so broad and ranging you should stay away from it in your arguments. Using Caucasoid simply opens you up to reverse equally bold claims. Claiming someone is caucasoid has absoultely no substance and gives no information on the actual race of that person. It is as equally broad as Negorid and Mongoloid. Anyone can be classified as almost any of these "races" for the following reasons. The terms -oid are all based on physical characteristics common of American (Western Europeans and West African people) peoples. It ignores that there are full black people with thin lips and straight hair from say Somalia or Kenya(coincidentally not in west africa) or that their are full white people from Europe(coinicidentally not in West Europe) with broad noses, dark skin, or thick lips.

"Have a look at this site which is from Carleton S. Coon, and he defines Caucasoid as being European, Middle Eastern, and North African" Firstly this is not a site it is a collection of webpages that anyone can go and create. I will have no problem accepting something from a web SITE but I'm sure you can understand why I would be hesitant to accept anything from a collection of webpages that anyone who knows how to use a computer can create. Not that I'm accusing you of anything but for all we know you could have made up that webpage today or yesterday.

http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/race.html (scroll down to bottom of page of diagram). Even your own website says that berbers are negroid. For those who don't go I'll describe it for you. You have for boxes representing each race. For some reason New Guineas are asian but Berbers are clearly in the Negro box with Bantus, W.africa, e,africans, san nilo sahrans and Mbutis. There you have it even coon recognized that Berbers (The orignal inhabitants of North Africa) were Negro race more than any other race so Caucsoid can continued to be used for Near East people (I will put back in the article). I don't understand however how near east people are white but turks are not, even though they are in europe.

Well I guess we were both right and wrong in a way. Near Easterners are caucasoid where as berbers are negroid.

I noticed someone edited the article and put back in North Africans as Caucasoid. Well as proven by Coons own diagram which I gave a link to from a site provided by the guy who was arguing this, Berbers are negroid at least according to Coon. Coon currently is the only source here so who ever is changing it is either making it up or not citing their source which either way is aginst wiki rules. If someone wants to introduce a new and controversial idea I'm fine as long as they have some kind of links.

The first 10 Google hits on Caucasoid already have 3 non-Wikipedia references to North Africans as Caucasoid. [2][3][4]--JWB 01:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Natives to North Africa are Caucasoid. Just check up the word Caucasoid or Caucasian in the dictionary, and the definition would be "people who have origins in Europe, West Asia (Middle East), North Africa and India. --Gramaic | Talk 01:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue what google brings up as a hit. Google is just a search engine not a scientist nor an anthroplogist. If I put in the word black into google then picture of white blonde women come up. Does this mean black people are white blonde women. I look up in the dictionary and it is more rigid than the definition you gave. It says people from Europe and north west asia, (didn't include any where else). I also see contradictions on the defintion of caucasian and caucasoid in the ditctionary and contradictions among different dictionaries which I 'm sure is why me and you have two different definitions of caucasoid. The same would apply to the dictionary in the sense that people who write them are not anthropolgist but and have phds in language and English. It is best to make them writers of the dictionary define common words and the scientist like coon to do their jobs and define anthropolgcal terms and race. It was your link and the anthroplogist that you argued to so many others was correct so I may have to wonder about you since you seem to be backing away and trying to distance yourself from Coon works, which argued to so many other people were credible. However you seem reasonable so far so I'm still willing to hear you out and keep an open mind. jmac800

If you looked at the 3 links, one was a dictionary and two were biologists, all citing N. African Caucasoid, not some random association like black (a word with many other meanings) -> blonde woman.

Carleton Coon was a scientist but definitely not representative of today's mainstream viewpoint. But if anything he extended the Caucasoid label farther than others! See Talk:Negroid and others where Afrocentrists argue at length that Coon labels North and East Africans Caucasoid in order to deny that any ancient civilizations were populated by Negroids.

By the way, the suffix -oid creates a wider class than the original word. Not all spheroids have to be spheres, not all Caucasoids have to be Caucasian.

Also, you misinterpreted [5] - the 2D plot is not from Coon but by Cavalli-Sforza et al., and the Berber point on the plot is for Saharan Berbers with some black ancestry (Berber#Saharan Northwest Africans), not for North African Berbers (Berber#Coastal Northwest Africans).--JWB 04:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Tell me how to take you seriously when you are discrediting you own sources?

I don't know what you are talking about. Coon is not my source.--JWB 06:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Same here. I have never used Coon as one of my sources, just as an example. BTW Jmac800, all the different dictionaries I have read, all inluded "North African" in the definition of Caucasoid. What kind of dictionary do you have? --Gramaic | Talk 06:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I see there are people who are claiming various groups to be white or caucasoid. Please provided at least sources that explain how because this does not agree with any one of the ones list.

This is a very minimal statement that some people have some caucasoid traits or ancestry. All sources agree on this.--JWB 22:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that we don't see eye to eye on what a caucasoid trait. You may straight nose but someonelse might say well only west african Bantu ethnic group africans have flat noses so it is not really a caucasoid trait cause so much people of different races have it. I don't deny that some infact many of the people in Africa have non-black ancestry that the many Turks of descent I personally know who live in Algeria. I do have a problem with your claim of the original inhabitants being caucasoid or caucasian. If you want to say there are many people in North Africa (Algeria, Tunisia, egypt) of causcasoid ancestry thats fine and its true but I have I major problem when you say the original inhabitants of these places are caucasian white or any of its variants because its not true.

The other thing you say that I see is really wrong is that you use one ethnic group of africans (West african Bantus) to generalize a whole race of people (black). If you are going to say any african who doesn't look bantu (curly hair, flat nose, big lips) is caucsoid or looks caucasoid then I will expect you to say that any european who doesn't look lapps (northern european) is negro or looks negro. You can't say for one race that all that race of people must look like one ethnic group but for another race they look all different especially when one of those races has more than 900 genetically diverse ethnic groups.

The point is here that wikipedia must maintain a certain order of consistency or people will disregard it altogether. If you are going to classify black people with thin lip or straight hair or whatever as caucasoid then I will expect to see you edit the negro article and include those ethnic groups from sout and east europe with thick lips and curly hair as negroid since it seems you are basing it solely on physical characteristics. So I will levave the article for 24 hours and wait for your update for your negroid update for 24 hours, or revert the causcoid one if for whatever reason you decide to make excuses to explain that thick lips and curly and dark skin aren't negroid. jmac800

The controversy about people with dark skin but less Negroid features is about Ethiopia, Somalia, some minority groups in East Africa like the Tutsi, maybe even some people in or south of the Sahara in West Africa. It is not about Berbers of the Atlas Mountains or Mediterranean coast, who look like other Mediterranean populations, or even European in some cases. --JWB 06:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Now that you make such ridiculous knowingly falacious claims I have to begin to question everything that comes out of you. If you want to say african people are caucasoid you better provide a link that explains how, other than some 16th century dictionary written by white supremist who believe anyone outside europe is not human. If you are going to say that black people who in your opinion look caucasoid or have causoid features are white then you must argue that white people who have negor features are negroid. I expect to see these arguments from you otherwise your full of crap and no more than a vandal. The ones source on this page refutes that any berbers or any other african group are anything but negro so add a credible source or stop vandalizing the pages. jmac800

Jmac800, regarding your last paragraph, please pay attention to the Wikipedia:Assume good faith and Wikipedia:No personal attacks policies, as well as Wikipedia:Three-revert rule#Intent of the policy.

Here are some photos just from Google image search on "berber atlas":

• http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm16/pictures/activity2/new/Morocco%20Berber%20women.jpg
• http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2981946
• http://moroccanrugs.co.uk/graphics/highatlasweaver.jpg

That there are *some* caucasoid or mostly caucasoid people somewhere on the African continent is an extremely conservative claim. It is not claiming there are not also black people in North Africa. (there are even Asian-appearing traits among the Chleuh)

I searched on mountain areas specifically to show mountain people who are less likely to show recent admixture. Recent admixture is more likely to show black than white input anyway since Morocco conquered areas south of the Sahara several centuries ago and because of the trans-Saharan slave trade.

Again, if you have questions on the specifics of Berbers, please discuss it at Berber where Berber editors themselves will see and respond to it. Caucasoid is supposed to be a very brief summary avoiding individual controversies. Berber lists archeological evidence including estimates of European and sub-Saharan genetic input (fairly low for most groups).

Please note we successfully resolved an earlier dispute (see first half of this talk page) with an editor who was convinced some material that others considered innocuous was actually white-racist in motivation.

--JWB 19:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm willing to discuss this with you since you for whatever reason decided to start using partial evidence even though it is of poor quality. Well all you did was provide me with is pictures. Thes just look like typical lightskin North Africans to me who are black with some mixtures. Maybe you will expect me to believe that being black involves having huge lips and a flat nose but I'm black and from North Africa and know that those are Bantu and not black chractaeristics. Maybe most blacks in your country are Bantu and look that way but you seem to have trouble understanding that not only Bantu people have those chracarteristics, and black of virtually any other ethnic group do not look that way. http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/GeoImages/Miller/maroc/family2.jpg http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/GeoImages/Miller/maroc/family2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/GeoImages/Miller/family2.html&h=256&w=384&sz=32&tbnid=3TTLRwW06dUJ:&tbnh=79&tbnw=119&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bnorth%2Bafricans%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DRNWE,RNWE:2005-12,RNWE:en http://i-cias.com/morocco/draa.htm

Heck I'll even show you a guy who is the same ethnic group as me. http://www.wrasserecords.com/albums/images/Khaled.nssinssi.jpg . I don't know if you know who Khaled is but. . . .

All you did was give me link to pictures of people you claim are moroccan. This proved nothing for you and was a waste of time on your behalf. You gave no explantion to that says these people are white. I have tonnes of problems with your statement that asserts people who come from the largest desert on earth could have white skin at the very least where there are people not from deserts signifcantly darker. These people are simply put to white in skin color to be natives of any desert especially the largest one in the world. They are clearly people with Ottoman ancestry.

I'm not aruing that white people or non black people in Africa exist. I'm saying the following. 1 These people are not natives. 2 What you seem to be defining of Caucasoid is not what Caucasoid is it is simply including anyone who is not a Bantu African. It would be equivalent to me saying only Aryans are white hence everyone else is africoid or mongoloid. It is near impposible for you to find any country in the mediterrain africa or europe where people are less likely to show mixture. It is more likely that you can find groups that fit what you want them to be. I could easily find an isolated group of non native morrocan blacks and say here in this isolated area of morocco is what real morrocans look like. After thousands of year of race mixing your not going to find one pure soul on the medterrain.

From what I read of the berber article it supports that berber orignate in east africa and not europe so they seem to be more black than white. That is not what I'm arguing here anways. jmac800

This is not about "what real morrocans look like". You're welcome to take that up at the appropriate articles. For this article, it is not relevant whether the minority of very African-looking people in Morocco are due to migration in recent centuries or whether they have somehow existed there for tens of thousands of years without merging with the lighter surrounding population; this article mentions only Caucasoid and part or transitional Caucasoid types.

The Atlas Mountains are not the Sahara Desert. They are north of the Sahara a few hundred miles from Spain and have a climate completely different from the Sahara.

Human skin color does not correlate exactly with latitude or even with total solar radiation. See the discussion and maps at Human skin color. Note the maps File:Map of skin hue equi.png and the newer [6] have extreme northern Africa the same color as Southern Europe and the eastern Mediterranean.

The Ottoman presence in North Africa involved only a small number of soldiers who resided in the coastal cities. They have left some partial descendants in the coastal cities but are unlikely to have left Berber-speaking peasant descendants deep in the mountains.

Again, this is not about people who are African and dark-skinned but do not have Central African facial features. Those people are in Ethiopia, Somalia, etc., as well as the Khoisan of Southern Africa, not Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia.

Khaled is from the coastal city of Oran, Algeria, one of the places most likely to have genetic admixture from Europeans, Turks, Arabs, as well as sub-Saharan Africans. He is not a member of an identifiable Berber ethnic group or speaker of a Berber language. He appears to be member of the Algerian and North African general population. As for you, your IP address identifies you as being in Ohio, and your writing shows no trace of a French educational background.

The Berber article does suggest migration tens of thousands of years earlier from northeast Africa, but that does not mean not Caucasoid or not ancestral to Caucasoid. Caucasoid does not mean from Europe. All humans are originally from Africa (according to the currently dominant Out of Africa hypothesis, as little as 70000 years ago), and northern Europe was under ice until only about 11000 years ago.--JWB 05:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not arguing what "real" moroccans look like but I am arguing what native morrocans look like. They don't look white but the turks who migrated their when they occupied north africa for thousand years look caucasoid because they are from europe(Turkey mostly). You show absoultuely no consideration that climates today where not the same as they were 10000 years ago. I seen some people from Italia and Turkey who are far darker than people from places like Eritrea or Mauretania or of similiar complextion of people from South Africa. Your map totally ignores history and invasions and displacement of peoples. Now if your saying that this is what people who lived in a certain place for the last 10,000 years look like, with no migrations, no change in climate, no mutations, no invasions, then yes I agree with you but there are too many variables here to consider this as hard core fact. Another thing is that your map shows only skin color which has very little to do with race. Skin color is simply one genetic indication and can change tremendously in a 2 or 3 generations so I reject it as your primary basis as claiming people to be caucasoid.

I'm not going to argue the ottoman thing with you cause anyone who has taken a grade 1 history class in any north african country would know. Get educated on the subject.

Ottomans ruled Algeria for only 300 years not 1000 according to History of Algeria and dispatched only relatively few soldiers.

Your defintion of African is Bantu and not all black or African people are Bantu get that through your head. I tell you that bantu people look such and such a way and you tell me that anyone who is not bantu is not black. Bantu is simply one ethnic group. Life started around Ethiopia and Kenya so Bantu where not the first and only black people. Bantue people orginate from East Africa and crossed through North Africa to get where they are today.

Bantu is a linguistic group not racial, it originated in West and Central Africa and migrated east and south, not the other way around.

As far as people from Oran having Arab mixture that is very far off. The only people in Africa that have Arab admixture is Egyptians. There are plenty people of the Arabic culture in Algeria but virtually no people who trace their ancestry back to Arabia exist that I know of anyways. There may be people who have european ancesrty from ions ago but that is likely as much Mediterrain Europeans have North African ancestry considering we ruled them longer.

Obviously I don't speak French because I don't live in Algeria. Not many Algerian speak french since we kicked them out and there is someone of a culutral stigma towards those who do because they are seen as supporters of colonialism and the Frencj cause. May I remind you that when Algeria got its independece most people who supported the french were forced out whether they were french or algerian. Most the people who speak french or super rich business men the last time I was in Algeria anyways.

Over 20% of Algerians can read and write French according to Languages of Algeria. Education used to be in French, now it is in Arabic or French. Can you write some Arabic?

I'm not from Ohio so maybe you have the wrong IP as mine. I never been their either.

Caucasoid people are from the Caucus which is primarily in Europe and could be considere a bit in Asia. No proof no evidence no nothing suggest caucasoid people were in North Africa until the turks. I don't really consider Egypt to be north african because they are different than Libyans, Algerians, Tunisians, and Moroccans. Egypt had probably some arabs and lots of people mixed with European living their before the Turks. jmac800

"Caucasian" people are not from the Caucasus, that was one theory 200 years ago and the name stuck. And Caucasoid is not the same as Caucasian.

Maghreb says "most Maghrebis are either Arabic- or Berber-speaking Muslims of predominantly Middle Eastern ancestry, while a few are of predominantly African ancestry, and the corsairs brought in significant amounts of French, Italian, Spanish, and Turkish ancestry in the big coastal cities.", and "Originally, the Maghreb was inhabited by "white" Cro-Magnoids (Iberomaurusians) in the north and by "black" peoples in the Sahara. Later, about 8000 BC, there came from the east "white" speakers of northern Afro-Asiatic languages such as Berber at least since the Capsian culture."

www.ancestrybydna.com

This site, which tests people's anecstrial dna classifies Middle Easterners as Caucasoids, and they are correct becuase the scientific definition of Caucasoid includes European, Middle Eastern, some North Africans and South Asians. --Gramaic | Talk 05:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for giving me links that disprove you. Your link of anything only strengthen my arguments that North Africans are not wwhite,caucasoid or any of such.

http://www.ancestrybydna.com/welcome/whatisancestrybydna/migrationmap/

This map from you credible link says different coloured arrows represent different genetic lineages and races. As everyone can clearly see the ENTIRE african continet is one homogenous color with one homogenous green coloured arrow. Europeans or Caucasians/cauasoids have a blue arrow that streches from Europe down to arabia and Iran. All different color than the one of Africa. Not only does this map tell us that Europeans and African(ALL african from A-lgeria to Z-imbabawe) are the same race and same gnetic lineage it also tells us that Europeans and people from South west Asia are a different race and a different genetic lineage than any and all Africans. This is all I have been arguing. That people from most the places you name except the ones in Africa are caucasoid and even when your own links says it your in denial. I have to wonder if it is even worth talking to you when your links refute your claims and support mine and you still say I am being unfair. There your links.

The fill colors on that map don't mean races - that would mean Canadians are a different race from Americans but the same as Mexicans, South Asians and Africans. The arrows represent migrations and not present races - the 75,000 year old migration predates formation of the present races. The arrows and the map text both say nothing at all about Northwest Africans.--JWB 05:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

More proof http://www.ancestrybydna.com/welcome/whatisancestrybydna/ "These groups are named using modern-day terms but represent anthropological lineages that extend back in time tens of thousands of years. For example, the term “European” is meant to describe a common ancestry held by peoples from continental Europe, the Middle East, Eurasia, Central Asia and South Asia – sometimes referred to as “Caucasoids”. EuroDNA is a more advanced analysis tool that allows our clients of Indo-European heritage to more thoroughly understand their ancestry. This service will predict your Indo-European heritage among the following groups:

Northern European Southeastern European Middle Eastern South Asian "

Well I don't see North African there. The closet I do see is mid-eastern which would according to our current defintion of mid-east would include Egypt typically. Even though this site maps refute it, I will give him credit that there are some Egyptians with Caucasian ancestry because that is the current view also held here at wiki and for simple sake of ending this stupid argument. So if you say that some Egyptians have caucasuian ancestry your welome to go ahead but as far the rest of North Africa it is simply a lie and I will revert any more of your vandlist attempts to include black African be they from Algeria,Morrocco, Tunisia, Libya, Ethiopia, Somalia, Rwanada, or Nigeria.

Again, that site doesn't mention anything one way or the other about Northwest Africans.--JWB 05:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

--68.60.55.162 05:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)== Skin color vs skull shape ==

Firstly, I did not read the entire book that is the previous section. But I will say this. These groups should not be considered Caucasoids

1. Ethiopians
2. Veddoid and Dravidian East Indians
3. Australians
4. Ancient Egyptians

Why? Because they are at the very least mixed with Black (Negroid/Veddoid), and that mixture is a MIXTURE, not a "admixture" into a predominantly Caucasoid structure.

In addition, the Italians and Greeks and others who are put in as "white' in the prtty map aren't white. Sicilians, and Greek Islanders for example are as dark as many Sahelic Africans, and the issue here with the map is social, not anthropological. That silly color scheme reinforces the comfort zone of White europeans and does nothing to address the true nature of the various skin colors in Europe. They should call this article, "What White Americans think white should be". Or even better they should call this article the "White One drop Rule" (Anybody that is MIXED with Caucasoid is therefore a Caucasoid). --208.254.174.148 02:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC) Zaph

The Bianetti map actually has different colors for Northern vs. Southern Europe, but the in this version the latter is a light yellow that is easy to confuse with white.

I think what you have noticed is that Caucasoid is not the same thing as White or even Caucasian. The -oid suffix on Caucasoid means it is a broader or looser concept, and the word is a recent (century or so) coinage that was defined to include many outside Europe or even the Middle East. As an encyclopedia, we have to give the definition that has actually been used, not just redefine it. After that, we can give one or more established POV on the usefulness or not of the concept.--JWB 04:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

'

JWB does it make sense to have anthropological classifications that arbitrarily assign a broad base for one of it's subgroups (Caucasoid) yet narrow for another (Negroid), especially when the subgroupings do not match the social, cultural, ancestral, and historical groups?

I mean, we are talking about skull shapes and DNA trends. Those still rely on some person to decide where the lines are drawn. If the skull has an angle of so many degrees, SOMEONE has to decide, "Ok here, this is where the negoid ends and the caucasoid begins". Same thing for DNA. It makes no sense however, to look at Caucasoid people (who are the most recent group) as a starting point with much more leverage than the Negroid people (who are of the oldest group). It would be like calling a big chunk of dinosaurs part of the Crocodile order in the animal kingdom since some lizards are crocodiles and they lived sometime WITH the dinosaurs, instead of recognizing that they are both part of the reptile class. (the similarity in the logic is that any animal that is a lizard would be considered to be a crocodile first unless it showed a very narrow definition of what a dinosaur is (like running on two feet, or something)... just like any human that existed in history would be considered to be a Caucasoid first unless they showed strict, and solely "pure" Negroid or Mongoloid traits.) The point I am getting at is that all of the grey area between is lumped into Caucasoid, and that includes those people who aren't even mixed with Indo European! So no this isn't objective until THAT bias ends. --68.60.55.162 05:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC) Zaph

Circular argument - the foundation of the problem

"This site, which tests people's anecstrial dna classifies Middle Easterners as Caucasoids, and they are correct becuase the scientific definition of Caucasoid includes European, Middle Eastern, some North Africans and South Asians. --Gramaic | Talk 05:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC) "

Gramaic, a site classifies people a particular way, and they are right because the scientific definition of a physical characteristic is based on a person's regional origin? That is like saying "White people are always right because they are white and a white person said so." --208.254.174.148 02:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC) Zaph

Yes, that sentence is phrased as a circular argument which makes no sense. What I think he's trying to say is that the DNA evidence of similarities between those peoples agrees with the definition of Caucasoid which was originally made by physical anthropologists.--JWB 04:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Then the question arises, why are Ethiopians, Aboriginal Australians, Ancient Egyptians, and Veddic Indians considered "Caucasoid"? Why are mixed people considered Caucasoid? --68.60.55.162 05:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC) Zaph

This article does not make those statements. It was rewritten to avoid as much controversy as possible. --JWB 07:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

JWB what needs to be ADDRESSED in the article is WHY someone of any authority would classify Egyptians, Ethiopians, Ugandans and people from RWANDA as "Caucasoids" or "part of a Caucasoid subgroup". IN adderssing this, you will run into the matrix red pill which will finally answer what "Caucaoid" truely means, vs the matrix blue pill that makes you want to continue on believing what caucasoid was "designed" to mean. Again, I read some of the thesis paper in the section above, but the debate ends up with jmac coming to the same logical conclusion that I came up with. The "label" is arbitrary. Just like the word "continent". It's supposed to describe distinct large bodies of land, but "Europe" gets special treatment, as the "special continent" that seperates the whites from the non'white Asian. This is where the Caucasoid issue becomes psychology and racism, not anthropology, not crainometry, not DNA, not objectivity. --68.60.55.162 10:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC) zaph

JWb so far I have only used the resources you have provided and they all refute your claims of caucasian/causoid/white North African(excluding egypt) inhabitants. You have given no genetic proof no nothing. Your own website acknowledged that African from Egypt to Senegal, to Algeria to South Africa are of one race. I really don't want to hear any more of your made up ideas of caucasoid or white or whatever you want to call it people from North Africa who are white. Your map clearly showed one lineage. The only argument you have been able to come up with is that based on skin color which is not scientific. Otherwise I could be claiming that Greeks are black because of their skin color. There are significant evidence thats suggest Sicilians are black or have part black ancestry but I don't feel like getting into that right now. The only reason I put that some parts of Egypt has caucasoid looking people is because I have seen some Egyptians who could almost pass for caucasoid.

I don't think the guy who posted before you was agreeing with in fact I think he was being sarcastic towards your faulty based ideas that skin color = race. Not even coon believed that.

Gramtic your full of crap because I looked at the site and gave the link where it showed africans as one race you did not give no links or references so stop propoagating lies right now. Honestly if you guys put

1. Ethiopians
2. Veddoid and Dravidian East Indians
3. Australians
4. Ancient Egyptians

these groups as white people will laugh and not take wikipedia seriously. Ethiopia probably has the purest gene people of all black people because they have never been invavded or colized except one time in ww2 for 5 years by Italy. Veddoid people and people from that area although I am not claiming they are look very much like black people but with straigh hair. Austrlians look very much like black people from west africa and there are even many black egyptians today so claiming these groups as looking white will just make you look like a liar instead of actually giving people info. Wheteer or not they are causcasian that a different matter that deals with gentics but that not wht were talking about here jmac800

Well that's just it too... the genetic classification is done, not by grouping the similar groups together which ARE Caucasoid, but by grouping very DIFFFERENT groups together AS Caucasoid, then putting an "official" stamp on it. Trust me, if they could, they would classify Aliens from outer space as "Caucasoids" because after all, they are made of atoms, and molecules, just like Caucasoids are! -- Zaph

The Popular definition of Caucasoid

From Coon's work we have: East African: In the deserts and highlands of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and the Somalilands is found a concentration of several related Mediterranean types, mixed in varying degrees with negroes. To the west these partial whites border on Sudanese negroes; to the southwest the partially Hamitic tribes of Kenya and Uganda form art extension of the peripheral Mediterranean racial area. To the north, the Beja-Bisharin group of Hamitic-speaking nomads connect the East African Hamitic-speaking peoples with their wholly white Egyptian and Berber relatives of North Africa. - http://racialreality.sitesled.com/subraces.html

Coon obviously is motivated by his own bias, not science. "partial whites border on Senegalese negroes???" KENYA and UGANDAN people are an extension of the peripheral Mediterranean racial area??? And of coruse the Khosian types are not Black either. So what do we have? A couple of villages in Central and West Africa as the only "Black" people remaining. It's rediculous! And if we can finally understand, its motivated by prejudice and self-aggrandizement (My race is the best race attitude) on coon's part.

Here is another example:

Caucasoid The Caucasoid group is the most 'varied' of the three racial groups. Modern Caucasoids are very varied, even though they are descended from the same group of ancestors. They range from the fair-skinned people of north-west Europe to the widely varying peoples of the Indian subcontinent. Their hair may be either wavy or straight, and the diameter varies widely too. The color ranges from black to a pale blond that is almost white, including just about every possible shade in between.

NOtice how that website does little to elaborate on the other two hair types. The psychology is not that complicated. If you want to feel good about yourself you are going to promote yourself in the most positive spin you can. "most varied" "very varied" "even though", etc. This isn't racism, but it is a misunderstanding. Obviously this definition forces ANYONE to be possibly caucasoid, and if you read further, you can see, as predicted, the "African" hair type is not described in it's range, nor really is the Asian type. So the white reader, and writers are predisposed to biasedly make their own race seem more flexible and interesting and complex. And on the same token, they simply or try to simplify the African and Asian. Thus, here is why today we have the Caucasoid group being "very diverse" and the Negroid being very "specialized". It's psychology, not science. Same mentality as coon.

Oh and there is another reason. Back in those days, whites were motivated by purity. There was the need to make sure the European was represented as purely Caucasoid (with no mixture). In order to do that, they had to expand the Caucasoid group to allow the mediterranean and other "intermediates" in order to make the European seem as unmixed as possible.

If anyone uses photoshop, you know that when you take a picture, you can slide the output levels of the image to make the overall image look darker or lighter than it originally is, this does not really distort the RELATIVE colors, but just how they overall come out. In the same manner, the coons and others which hold on to the old theory, they had to adjust the labeling scheme of the human anthropological range, in order to make sure the "middle ground" was as far from Europe as possible.

The nail in the coffin

After all in 1935, how would it look for an anthropologist like coon to say, "The Mediterranean type is an intermediate mixture of Negroid and Caucasoid, exhibiting the same traits in hair, and skin tone and skull shape as a mulatto, one whose parents is purely negro and purely nordic. The Italians, Egyptians and Greeks exhibit the same physical appearance of a person half black and half white. Their skull shapes are closer in resemblance to a negro/caucasian mulatto than to either of the puer parent groups." There would have been riots all over the states. I do believe this is the point that will put an end to all of this Caucasoid nonsense --68.60.55.162 06:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)Zaph

So just to clarify, Coon, being one who established the groups, he had the choice as to where to put each ethinic party. If the Egyptian type was too different from the Nordic type, well, he just expanded the Caucasian group to include them both, otherwise the partially negroid egyptian type would bleed into the groups of people who had considered themselves white during his time, like Italians, Greeks, etc.... I theorize he had to choose between comfortably making the Souteern Europeans "purely white" and uncomfortably allowing many obvioulsy black people "partially white". He knew (as we are learning now) that RACE IS A HUMAN CONCEPT. The visual differences are real, but their significance is psychological. When someone argues that "race is real" what they are saying is that human differences are real... how we clarifiy those differences, and what importance we place on them, that is inarguably arbitrary and there is no physicality (realness) to it. --68.60.55.162 06:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC) Zaph.

Evidence and Examples for burying the Caucasoid coffin

1. Boris Kodjoe - Mother German, Father Ghanian
2. Carmen Ejogo - Father Nigerian, MOther Scottish
3. Jaye Davidson - Father Ghanian, Mother English
4. Jerry Rawlings - Mother Ghanian, Father Scottish
5. Lenny Kravitz - Black Mother White Father
6. Sophie Okonedo - Mother Jewish, Father Nigerian
7. Sydney Poitier - her Father is Black, mother is white.

and the list goes on and on....

All of these people look at least as "Caucasoid" as the Ancient Egyptian, Italian and Greek. They also look at least as NEGROID as the Ancient Egyptian, Italian, and Greek. And bear in mind, that Hollywood, and plastic surgery has a tendacy to go more Caucasoid than Negroid. All of these people would be classified strictly as a "mediterranean Caucasoid type with little or no Negroid mixture" in their skull shapes. Their DNA is another story, as the timeline is far removed from Ancient Egypt, but I would imagine somehow the DNA threads would envelop them in a Caucasoid structure. Finally, their hair type... well I'm sure the "Caucasoid" hair type which goes from straight to Jewishly, and Scottishly curly would have no problem including them as well. SO now, I'm sure it's explained without ANY ambiguity as to how erroneous and slanted the "Caucaoid" type really is. --68.60.55.162 06:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC) Zaph

In my opinion Americans of mixed W African / NW European descent usually look somewhat different than Mediterranean people, even when skin color is similar. However this article now avoids saying anything more specific than that the area with Caucasoids is "centered on" Europe, Mediterranean and Middle East, and that there are some people with mixed or intermediate traits in parts of Africa and Asia. The main purpose of article discussion is to reach a consensus. Most controversial assertions have been removed (though listing various established but disagreeing POV would also work); the remaining disagreement is that Jmac800 objects to any mention of N. Africa (now maybe also Asia and Southern Europe) even as a place where an unstated quantity of people have an unstated but nonzero amount of Caucasoid traits, while others are opposed to complete deletion of N. Africa.--JWB 07:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes some mixed people look somewhat different than Mediterraneans, however, the fact remains is that some mixed people (and those examples I show above clarify this) look similar to mediterranean people. The other point is that these mixed people would be classified as just ANOTHER Caucasoid subtype, whether or not they look identical to mediterraneans. What needs to go into the article is this very fact. That "caucasoid" overreaches its objective extent and is hyper-inclusionary in order to satisfy the demographic and social concerns of many White political institutions and individuals. --68.60.55.162 09:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

My edit of the article specifically avoids asserting an extremely extended range for "Caucasoid" because you and others expressed this before. However, denying there are even any part-Caucasoid people indigenous to even the northernmost tip of Africa is going too far in the other direction.--JWB 13:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't deny that there are highly likely "native" caucasoid groups from say egypt. Although are probably not actually native as in the sense they trace their origins farthest back to their they probably have mixed and look like the native population enough that the two are undistguishable and could be consdiered caucasoid or negroid. I do however oppose the suggestion that natives of places like Libya or Algeria are white caucasoid or any of its branches cause that has been proven false. Anyone who has seen natives in these countries would know different. There were probably alot of whites in ancient egypt but I highly doubt that they were native and they may have been genetically white but would not have looked white in the way we know it. Just because people don't look bantu doesn't mean they are white. I also would like proof that south asian from say sir lanka are white.

JWB my objections is not that whites exist in africa it is that they are not native and you still haven't prooved that yet. I already know that there are Egyptians with non-black ancestry and I am sretching this definiton for you to even include caucasoid despite you have done nothing to prove it. As said by Zaph and other users it seems that you are using works of someone who is most controversial and work regarded as a farce in the scientific community but I am not even making that an issue right now. The point is this as far as I me a native Algerian knows is that Native algerians are negroid and not caucasoid. Our article on berbers says they have 75% negro admixture at least and orginate in East Africa. Your argument has been that everyone who is not bantu is caucasian which is a load of crap because Bantus orginate from East Africa and migrated from there through North Africa to West Africa.

The 75% in the Bosch Y chromosome study cited in Berbers is "75% NW African Upper Paleolithic" which they interpret as "an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa." It does not say Negro. Negro means what you are calling Bantu. Bantu is actually a linguistic group that migrated in the opposite direction than what you just said.

I don't know what you are referring to as "controversial" and "farce". If you mean Coon I'm only discussing him because you and other people cited him as an authority. --JWB 13:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well wiki basically says he full of crap so why do we use him?jmac800

Maybe we should discuss how much of a race classifies one as caucasoid. Greeks and Suthern euopeans have significant non-caucasoid admixtures including mongoloid especially and negorid(mostly sicilians). I also do object to all south asian being classified as caucasoid becuase some of them have negroid and mongoloid charactersics and some do have caucsoid chractersitics and some have mixtures. I don't see how anyone who has a mixed appearance should automatically be considered caucasoid though.

In my edit of this article, it explicitly says mixed or transitional about Mediterranean, S. Asia, and Central Asia. --JWB 13:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that these mixtures should be acknowledgede at the very least. If you want to classify North african/eastafrican/westafrican/ any other imanginey causoids go ahead and do it in the coon part cause coon claims that but no modern scientist believe this. jmac800

I created a page called "Classical Negro" which addresses this issue of putting mixed people in the Caucasoid section. This Caucasoiding of various people is a form of hyperdescent, and should be identified as such in the article. There is a psychological component that is not being addressed either. WHY is a black looking Egyptian or any other group of people "WANTING" to feel white? --68.60.55.162 09:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph

Looks like most of the material in Classical Negro goes with the material in Afrocentrism which is largely about the Ancient Egyptians question. There is also Congoid. I'm not sure "Classical Negro" is a current term, haven't seen it anywhere else. --JWB 13:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Alot of that stuff should be in caucasoid defintion.jmac800