Talk:Albanian nationalism

Cleanup order!

First of all we should remove or improve all the information that is biased and not verified. So we could make a proper cleanup it is important to set the order of things. 1. The language used is very biased and shows a really non-neutral attitude. 2. Issues like Illyrian-Albanian continuance are unresolved and should be treated as such. 3. English used does not fulfill Wikipedia standards. Punctuation problems should be treated as well. 4. Usage of only 3-4 sources, most of them biased. AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• 1.Language refers to what the Albanian claims are
• 2.The issues are as Albanian nationalism forged them to be
• 3.grammar should be fixed
• 4.Sources are not biased- Albanian nationalism is.

Megistias (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"These ideologies and Greater Albania have proponents that are not only nationalists but criminals[5] and terrorists[6] involved in drug trafficking ,Human trafficking and other activities motivated by profit [7]." — Come on! If this is not anti-Albanian than I don't know what is. I would not be surprised if it would write "All Albanians are pigs, and they should all burn in hell![13]"... AnnaFabiano (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

(And I know, i know... it's "chauvinism"!) AnnaFabiano (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This is from the References.This thing you write is "All Albanians are pigs, and they should all burn in hell" is very bad.This article refers to Nationalists not something else, the Albanian people is hardworking and i have lots of them as friends.Megistias (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This text should by modified!. I found a lot of irreguralities:

1. They are citing the USA Gov. and I saw the list, there is no KLA in the list of terrorist organisations. See!
2. Additionally, the article about the KLA smugglers can hardly be considered as an argument since it is published in an activism web-site (highly biased) by an author whose achievements include marrying a Senior Air Attaché.
3. Also, there is no central nacionalistic claim, there is no official (or non-official for that matter) book or document that shows Albanian chauvinistic/nacionalistic claims.
4. Grammar should be definitively fixed.
5. Albanian nationalism is as any other!

Furthermore, it is superbly fallacious to call an entire nation criminals and terrorists. AnnaFabiano (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The KLA is disbanded now and my Source stands firm.The article is full of reliable references, if you are not here to contribute go somewhere else.Megistias (talk) 21:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, I will have to report you! AnnaFabiano (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Third Opinion

I have come here in response to a request for a third opinion. I am familiar with the issue in a general way and have no interests that would bias me one way or another on this topic. In looking at the article, I agree that it is a mess, but I think I can best help by guiding the disputing editors into turning it into an encyclopedic article if you are interested in working with me on that.

I would recommend that an introductory section be added. This lead section should consist of one or two paragraphs (three at most) that provide a concise overview of the subject. For this article, it should contain an NPOV description of the topic in the form of "…Pan-Albanianism is a nationalist Albanian ideology that advocates …" and provide a short list of its main tenets. This should be followed by a brief statement of its historical origins – the ideologies, not of Albanian ethnic origins – and a short statement of its significance, which here would need to mention(its strength and impact on Albanians living inside and outside the modern-day nation of Albania, as well as its significance and potential impact on neighboring states.

I would also like to see a source that addresses whether or not all three bold-face terms are synonymous. To wit, it is possible that there is a generic state-oriented nationalism oriented toward the modern state of Albania distinct from – and perhaps opposed to – a pan-Albanian nationalism advocating the achievement of a Greater Albania.

I think that if the two of you editors (and any others who may come to assist) can develop a neutral, encyclopedic-voiced lead, that will provide good guidance for structuring and developing the remainder of the article. Askari Mark (Talk) 23:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I asked an admin to help tidy the article before Anna came.-Report me on what?I dont use only 3-4 sources as you write and they are not biased Anna.You are not helping.Megistias (talk) 23:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you put it in some order Askari Mark?Megistias (talk) 00:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Also take sometime to put Anna in her place, i dont enjoy been accused of things i dont write or have anything to do with like she writes of.Megistias (talk) 00:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Since i already answered on Kla and that whole part is full of references this is Harrasment Anna.Keep away.Megistias (talk) 00:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

About these KLA references. I think you should remove your thirteenth source "The Crimes of the KLA: Who Will Pay?" because it clearly violates Wikipedia's standards on reliable sources. Apart from being cited incorrectly (the link directs you to antiwar.com, not to Agence - France Presse as cited in the reference), it also belongs to the category of self-published sources. This way, the author is no established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications (as is required by Wikipedia). As a matter of fact, she's a mere career military officer's wife, which is pretty useless, if you are to cite her as a reliable reference for an encyclopedia article. Nightphilips (talk) 14:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

ReplacedMegistias (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Magistias, references are not bricks that you can replace and use whenever you want. You should not write a text and then find sources that fit you best. It is the total opposite. You should create an article from non-biased sources, or from both sides. In this article there are sources telling only one side of the story. This text is totally offensive toward Albanians. AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

---

Thanks for helping us Askari Mark. I personally think that Albanianism should be a separate page as it represents Albanian attitude towards religion. And I fully agree with you on issues brought forward on the structure of the article. And sorry Magistias if you feel accused of anything, it's just that I want so badly to fix these problems with POV. AnnaFabiano (talk) 00:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You write lies in all the page.My sources were not 3-4 and all the rest you say here are completely rejectable and clearly offensive towards my person.Keep your fantasies to yourself.Megistias (talk) 00:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

"Albanian attitude towards religion".Albanianism is nationalism clear and simple.Nationalism is just that.Megistias (talk) 00:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

"Third opinion" is not a "reporting" process, but rather a first step at arbitrating differences between editors. Accordingly, let's put the personal attacks behind us, and assume good faith. It is very easy online to assume what someone else means or intends – and to assume wrongly, so let's take a fresh start, shall we? Please concentrate on civilly critiquing suggestions and not persons or their motives.

I have just gone through the article and made a general clean-up of punctuation in order to enhance its readability. Since AnnaFabiano points out that the three terms – Albanian nationalism, Albanianism, and Pan-Albanianism might not be synonymous. Can either of you provide reliable sources that describe each term (or state that any two are synonymous)? Likewise, a source that better explains "Albanianism" as a 'religion' (in this instance a state religion) is required. Since I do not have access to the sources listed in the reference section, I will have to ask you to post the relevant text here so that we can all see it. Thanks, Askari Mark (Talk) 00:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is a source on Albanianism that I found (there are more). I do not claim that Albanianism is a religious belief among Albanians, but rather an important factor on their religious tolerance. It was first coined by Pashko Vasa, and has a national importance because it calls for unity on a national scale without considering religion. However, it was only in this religious (or rather non-religious) form that it was ever used by Albanian authors. If there is any material that shows another form of usage of Albanianism, it would be helpful to post it. AnnaFabiano (talk) 01:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that is an interesting read and I now understand better what you were referring to. The discussions in this source point out some essential elements and themes that will need to be better brought out in this article. Askari Mark (Talk) 05:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You are trying to mislead Anna, in this day and age Albanianism is Albanian nationalism and their only "religion"Megistias (talk) 08:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Pan-Albanianism would be better suited to be part of the Big Albania article. It is essential not to confuse Albanian nationalism as country's identity revival, with Pan-Albanianism as nationalist claims. Also, there is a page that would be very well appropriated with Albanian nationalism: Albanian nationalism and independence. And maybe it would be better to create a whole new article on Albanianism and religious tolerance (or it could be part of Religion in Albania - although Albanianism refers to religious ambiguousness among Albanians, and not just Albania). What do you think? AnnaFabiano (talk) 10:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop trying to confuse and mislead.Panalbanianism belongs here as well as all the rest as all are referenced.Nothing else will be created your are merely harassing now.Pretending not to be able to read or understand the references is just that.Megistias (talk) 10:59, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias, please stop accusing AnnaFabiano of lies and deception. Neither you nor anyone else is in a position to know her motivations, so please assume they are meant well. Attacking other editors' motives is disruptive and unhelpful. I asked whether the three terms highlighted as synonymous in the lead of this article are truly and completely synonymous. If this is indeed the case, then I am sure that with your mastery of the literature, you can identify the sources that say so. Anna has offered her view and relevant, reliable source, so now it is your turn. (Remember, I am trying to mediate this dispute, not dictate solutions.) Askari Mark (Talk) 19:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Starting point!

I believe it would be best if we could start something like:
Albanian nationalism or Albanianism or Pan-Albanianism refers to a group of Albanian ideologies and theories that culminated during Communist Albania, its continuation into modern Albania, and its proliferation in Kosovo. This should be stated later on the text: Albanian nationalist ideology and historical revisionism mixes Illyrians with Ancient Greeks and Pelasgians. This is obscure: These ideologies and Greater Albania have proponents that are not only nationalists but criminals[9] and terrorists[10] involved[11] in drug trafficking, human trafficking and other activities motivated by profit. It could go more like: Albanian nationalism in post-communist Albania is mostly present in war-engaged and criminal circles (otherwise you mark an entire nation as terrorist and criminal).
What do you say, Magistias (and anybody else)? AnnaFabiano (talk) 00:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Anna. Would you please provide a reliable source for that? It is useful if we can cite such a fact (although we can debate later whether it belongs in the lead). Please keep in mind that we must verify what we write by citing sources; if we cannot find a source that does so, then it should not be in this article until we can provide one. Askari Mark (Talk) 00:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, ok Askari, I was just rephrasing what was previously written - using the same citation. But maybe it is better to rewrite the entire text. I will have to work on that, BBS. AnnaFabiano (talk) 01:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The article does not state that an entire nation is criminal Anna.

• "Albanian nationalism in post-communist Albania is mostly present in war-engaged and criminal circles (otherwise you mark an *entire nation as terrorist and criminal"

This is inappropriate,not a fact and your plain imagination.Megistias (talk) 08:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I was trying to rewrite this sentence because it is badly written and unclear: "These ideologies and Greater Albania have proponents and patrons that are not only nationalists but criminals[9] and terrorists[10] involved[11] in drug trafficking, human trafficking and other activities motivated by profit [12]". What does drug and human trafficking have to do with nationalism? I thought you were trying to say that Albanian nationalism is more present among Albanian drug and human trafficking criminals. Isn't that what you were trying to say? AnnaFabiano (talk) 11:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Some copy-editing is needed. I'll carefully look the references on that sentence, seems they wanna say something more concrete.Alexikoua (talk) 13:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for getting involved Alexikoua. Other than being unclear, this text has a number of misleading references. For instance KLA is not considered a terrorist organisation bu the US State Dep. This is what they say about KLA: " They established a parallel government funded mainly by the Albanian diaspora. When this movement failed to yield results, an armed resistance emerged in 1997 in the form of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). The KLA's main goal was to secure the independence of Kosovo." More. It is not in any list of terrorist organisations.
Also, even the sources cited in article state that Albanianism is a concept founded by Albanian Rilindja movement of the XIX century - nevertheless in the text it is said that "These ideologies and Greater Albania have proponents that are not only nationalists but criminals[9] and terrorists[10...". There is no reference citing that Albanianism is an ideology of criminals and terrorists like stated in the article, in fact there is no reference that Albanian nationalism is criminal and terrorist. Cited are some articles that explain alternative ways of KLA founding. KLA is in no way a representative of Albanian nationalism, unless proven otherwise.
I think it is fair to start from these points and go on further bit by bit. Thanks! AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop spamming and harassing the talk page.The reference is good.KLA was a terrorist organization it WAS listed and is now disbanded.Megistias (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes but it was removed from the list before it got disbanded, furthermore it is not considered terrorist by US Gov. or any other gov NOW! Actually "The KLA's main goal was to secure the independence of Kosovo", this is what US State Dep. website says about KLA now. It is misleading to use a citation of a citation. AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The article has a multitude of references exhibiting that the KLA was a terrorist and criminal organization.Spamming and harassing like you do does not change this.Megistias (talk) 14:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Adding more citations does not change the fact that KLA is not considered a terrorist organisation by Western countires. There is no official document that indicates that. There is a number of books that say the American Government is terrorist (here one), but we do not say on Wikipedia that USA is a terrorist state, do we? You cannot declare an organisation terrorist with 2-3 or even 100 source. There is a definiton. Also I don't like repeating myself, but KLA is today considered The KLA's main goal was to secure the independence of Kosovo by US State Department. So your sources are not reliable or are just put in context to fit your story More. AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Better stop harassing.Megistias (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

From the KLA article itself Kosovo Liberation Army.Terrorists.The KLA was regarded by the US as a terrorist group until 1998 when it was de-listed,[3][4] and then the UK and the US lobbied France to do the same.[5]Megistias (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a reason why I was trying to encourage initially focusing on the three terms. Let's focus on one problem/dispute at a time. This disputed statement and the KLA issue will indeed have to be addressed (and I've added a section where this can be done), but right now it's just sidetracking everyone. For the rest of this thread, let us please return to focussing on the definitions. Askari Mark (Talk) 19:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I was asked to give my input for the improvement of this article and I find rather difficult to find a starting point as the article is clearly composed not to explain Albanian nationalism, but to label as "terrorists" and "criminals" individuals and groups. I suggest that the opening paragraph clearly state what Albanian nationalism constitutes and what its political goals are, as well as principles and ideals that give rise to it. Also, I want to bring to your attention that the citations offered are either unreliable or have been misused. Saying that the KLA was a terrorist organization, because the U.S. considered it so, is to say that the U.S. sided with the terrorists in the Kosovo War in 1999. Also, using Greek sources might not be the best choice when raising an argument about alleged criminal activities (as long as the issue remains disputed in the academia).

I am not here to defend and/or promote Albanian nationalism, but I must warn the authors against double standards. Take a look for example at Basque nationalism and see whether ETA’s activities are mentioned in the opening paragraph. And I believe you all are aware of the differences between KLA and ETA, at least of the circumstances under which they pursued their activities.--Getoar TX (talk) 20:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The article talks of nationalism.Groups that use it for profit or via profit that treads on crime is just a fact and not something that labels a nation as criminal as the article does not write this.KLA was a few thousand people and not all Albanians.The citations are reliable KLA was a terrorist organization ,no doubt there and it is exhibited that for the sake of its Politics the US took it of the list and pushed UK and French to do the same.Yes the US sided with them and Yes the US considered them terrorists,the US has aided Dictatorrs when it suits it , why is an armed group like KLA a surprise to you?

Note.The article is still under edition.Megistias (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Getoar TX. Since this is becoming a point of contention, I am temporarily commenting it out with hidden text notations and moving it to the Impacts on Albanian society and culture section. Some mention of the ideology's influence on the criminal element will need to be developed there. Askari Mark (Talk) 21:54, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I already moved it to Kosovo section since it concerns that region.I am still working on this.Megistias (talk) 21:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Defining "Albanianism"

I see there is a lot of confusion on this page about the three terms used in the beginning of the article. Being Albanian myself, I would be glad to help and clarify on the difference between “Albanian Nationalism” and “Albanianism” as it is a linguistic problem. In Albanian, there are two words: “shqiptaria” and “shqiptarizmi” with different definitions that both are translated in English as “Albanianism”.

Shqiptaria – is defined as “the Albanian unity, the Albanian People.”

Shqiptarizmi (or Shqiptarizëm) – is defined as “the Albanian national consciousness, the adoration of Albanians for their Motherland”

The first one (Shqiptaria) originates during the National Renaissance of Albania (Rilindja Kombëtare) of late 19th century. It is most widely used as a citation (including the ones on this article) of a poem written by Pashko Vasa at that time: “mos shikjoni kisha e xhamia, feja e shqiptarit është shqiptaria” translated to “swear an oath not to mind church or mosque, the faith (or religion) of the Albanians is Albanianism”. The term used here (shqiptaria) is used to create a unity between all Albanians as they were at that time spread amongst four Vilayets (Shkodër, Monastir, Janina and Kosovo) and belonged to different religion. I understand this is the issue AnnaFabiano tried to point out as a religious tolerance.

Both of the terms are nationalist but the first one (Shqiptaria) belonges to the National Albanian Renaissance (Rilindja Kombëtare) movement during the 19th century which was more concentrated on unifying the Albanians within the Ottoman Empire without highlighting ancient cultural claims. The second one (shqiptarizmi) on the other hand is a broader term describing Albanian nationalism in general and would suit the nationalist ideologies during the Communist Albania. The sources are the same (1 and 5) as the ones in the article.

I suggest that we move the terms Albanianism and Shqiptaria to the National Renaissance of Albania page as it specifically refers to that and instead use Shqiptarizmi as it better represents the ideologies expressed on this article.

Another option would be to put them on a separate section on the page removing them from the top with a shorter explanation about the National Albanian Renaissance which would then link to its main page.

I understand that the issue with both terms can be very confusing as they don’t have their parallel English translations. --Visar arifaj (talk) 02:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Pan-Albanianism and Albanianism are used in modern literature to define Albanian modern nationalism,previous correlations like the old ones you mention are another thing,Enver Hoxha used the word to describe Albanian nationalism and thats in the article.Megistias (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by "the old ones". The terms i used are of the modern Albanian language. The term Albanianism (shqiptaria) refers to the poem of Pashko Vasa (as it does by your sources also). The term might be used by many people afterwards (just like Enver Hoxha) but they can't claim it's meaning. It's the same as when we mention Evolution we refer to what Darwin has written and not anything after him.--Visar Arifaj (talk) 13:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

They can ,do and did in that case as well.Hoxha used it and said it and its usage in general in the modern times is in the context of nationalism as we now know it.Megistias (talk) 13:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you please read what nationalism is? AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Page merger!

Because this discussion is not leading anywhere, I am proposing a page merger. AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:54, 7 September 2009 (UTC) - In line with other wiki projects that are similar like Serbian nationalism and Greek nationalism, I am proposing that this page should be united with National Renaissance of Albania. There is no reason why these two pages should be separate! AnnaFabiano (talk) 17:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

There is Albanian nationalism is a special caseMegistias (talk) 17:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

How is it different: Megali idea - shall we put this on the Greek nationalism page. Or maybe Načertanije is a better example. AnnaFabiano (talk) 18:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You are just disrupting and harassing me personally.Keep away.Albanian nationalism is current,active,extreme in its historical fantasies and a special case worthy of an article unto itself.Megistias (talk) 18:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias and AnnaFabiano, please be patient with each other and stop attacking each other. No one owns this article; it is supposed to be a collaborative effort, which means that when we disagree, we disagree constructively. Okay?

I believe it is premature to propose a merge at this time, since the article is still being built. Merge proposals, in any case, do not normally "cure" disputes. I will restore the NPOV tag, though, as it is not constructive to remove such a tag before the disputants agree to a compromise approach. Megistias, please understand that this is not harassment nor an attack. It is simply a dispute to be resolved – preferably amicably. You are doing a good job of providing sourced information, so please continue. Askari Mark (Talk) 19:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Central ideology

What makes this page difficult to define is that there is no central Albanian ideology (Similar to Načertanije or Megali Idea), also there no source (book or document) that defines Albanian nationalism. On the other hand Albanianism is (more or less) defined but it is related to religious tolerance as stated on citations from the beginning of the article and Here so it cannot be considered "linked with Revanchism, Irredentism and concepts of ethnic superiority against their neighboring states and peoples". So maybe, a better idea would be to create a new section for Albanianism and remove it from the top? What do you say? Also the concept of Pan-Albanianism would be better suited with Big Albania article as the two are one and the same. AnnaFabiano (talk) 23:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Most modern European "mythic nationalisms" arose out of the Romantic movement of the late 18th through early 20th century. Albania's Romantic nationalism, which occurred late in that timeframe, has its roots there and this article needs to begin there and trace its subsequent evolution. Noel Malcolm, in the article you pointed me to, observes that "... Albania came very late to national statehood, and had only a short space of time – essentially the period 1878-1921 – in which to build the sort of national consciousness and national ideology that, in most other European countries, had been developing since at least the first stirrings of the Romantic movement."

According to Ger Duijzings, in the same source, its religious tolerance was a consequence of the inability to use it as a uniting vector, and the one attempt to do so based on the Bektashi was a failure. The revanchism and irredentism probably – I am not an expert – have their roots in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI, as well as, perhaps, the Greek annexations of the Ioannina vilayet (southern Epirus) in 1881 and 1913; however, the modern state holds no official revanchist claims, and from what I'm aware of, there is no strong popular sentiment in that country in favor of integrating Kosovo or any other Albanian-majority area. (The appeal of revanchism to the trans-national criminal element is, of course, apparent as a matter of its self-interest.) In short, it would seem that the appeal of a "Greater Albania" is at a rather low ebb today. In this article we have to deal with the more nuanced fact of an evolution of Albanian nationalism in which various elements have waxed and waned over the course of its development. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is a link of a report that Magistias found and is used as a reference on this article. It shows two important thing that you mentioned previously. First "[Among Albanians] violence in the cause of a greater Albania, or of any shift of borders, is neither politically popular nor morally justified." and "It is instructive that both the KLA and NLA started to gain popular support in Kosovo and Macedonia respectively at precisely the time when they moved away from their initial pan-Albanian nationalist goals and concentrated on more rights for their own people" and "The “Albanian National Army” (ANA) which overtly advocated a “Greater Albania” agenda, never managed to gain popular credibility". You can also see the usage of the term "Pan-Albania" (Pan-Albanianism) and "Great Albania" for the same purpose. AnnaFabiano (talk) 10:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Origin of Albanian nationalism

Related referenced materials are presented below. They can be used in the article

• The crescent and the eagle: Ottoman rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 Volume 10 of Library of Ottoman studies Author George Walter Gawrych Edition illustrated Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845112873, 9781845112875 [1]

In the early spring of 1877, a small number of ALbanians, concerned about the dangers facing Ottoman Empire, met secretly in Yanya under the leadership of Frasherli Abdul Bey, the oldest brother of Shemseddin Sami and a deputy in the Ottoman Parliament. They apparently drew up a program for the administrative autonomy of a single province of Albania as a means to preserve all lands inhabited by Albanians. Additionalideas for reform included language schools, and the restriction of military service by Albanians to Albania. This program represented the emergence of political Albanianism. Its political aim was an autonomous administration for Albania..(p. 40)

(Pashko Vasa's book) "Against this hostility and enmity, we (Albanians) found ourselves in defence of the rights of (our) ethnicity-nationality (hykuk-u kavmiyet)" Thus in this book political Albanianism was very much presented as a defensive responnse to external threats on Albanian lands, and it revolved around the important notion of rights of nationality for Albanians. (p. 59)

The Albanianism moto, from Pashko Vasa poetry:

Albanians, you are killing your brothers,

Into a hundred factions you are divided,
Some say "I believe in God" others "I in Allah"
Some say "I am Turk" others "I am Latin"
Some say "I am Greek", others "I am Slav"
But you are brother, all of you, my hapless people!
The priests and the hodjas have deceived you
To divide you and keep you poor
........
Awaken Albania, wake from your slumber,
Let us all as brothers, swear a common oath
And not look to church or mosque,

The faith of Albanians is Albanianism (shqyptarija)(p. 70)

In this poem, Vasa clearly expressed his own frustration over the disunity among Albanians.

In justifying a political union across regional, religious and tribal loyalties, Albanian nationalists argued that Albanians constituted a single nation with a common language, culture and history. (p. 71)

• The establishment of the Balkan national states, 1804-1920 Volume 8 of A History of East Central Europe Author Barbara Jelavich Edition reprint, illustrated Publisher University of Washington Press, 1986

In the midth-nineteenth century the area had attracted the interest of foreign scholars, most notably F. Bopp, who first argued that Albanian was an Indo-European language and the Austrian J. G. Hahn, generally regarded as the father of Albanology, who produced a grammar, a vocabolary, and a collection of folclore. By the end of the century was established that "the Albanians were descendants of a greaqt and ancient Indo-European people in the Balkans" This heritage played the same role in boosting national pride among Albanian intellectuals as did the similar links to the classical past among the Greeks and Romanians. Subsequently the study of Albanian history, language and folclore became popular, particularly among the Albanians in Italy. p. 225

• Albanian identities: myth and history Authors Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer Editors Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002 ISBN 1850655723, 9781850655725 link [2]

If we compare Albanian nationalism with that of its Greek and Serb neighbours, we see that it starts several decades later and in another historical context. Albanian nationalism does not originate principally as a necessary result of the desire for the liberation from Turkish domination, as it was for Greek and Serb nationalism. Rather Albanian nationalism starts at the time of the Russian-Turkish war (1877-78) which brought independance to the Serbs. As the Turkish Empire began to rapidly disintegrate, it became necessary to save the regions inhabited by Albanians from the threat of being partitioned by the Serbs and Greeks. At the same time there ws a perceived need to differentiate Albanians from the urkish identity. p. 91-92

• Nations and nationalism since 1780: programme, myth, reality, Part 6 Canto Series A Canto Book Series History e-book project Canto (Cambridge University Press) Author Eric J. Hobsbawm Edition 2, illustrated, revised Publisher Cambridge University Press, 1992 ISBN 0521439612, 9780521439619

the Albanians living under rival cultural influences since classical antiquity, and divided among three or (if we include the locally centred Islamic cult of Bektashi) even four rival religions; Islam, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. It was natural for the pioneers of ALbanian nationalism to seek an Albanian cultural identity in language, since religion and indeed almost everything else in Albania, seemed divisive rather than unifying. p. 53

So is there a book "Political Albanianism"? AnnaFabiano (talk) 11:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK there is no book with such a title. I don't understand the point of the question though:) Aigest (talk) 11:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Because Greek nationalism had defined claims on their document called Megali Idea also Serb nationalists had their own. There is no central Albanian nationalist idea. There was a group of people who called for unity among Albanians. And it seems that was it. I am trying to gather information that shows the difference between Albanian nationalism (which we do not seem to define other that Albanian Renascence), Albanianism and Pan-Albanianism. AnnaFabiano (talk) 12:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

NO there is no such document such as Megali Idea or Načertanije. If you see the sources above the main idea of Albanianism was to create the unity among Albanians which were divided by social and religious factors (as you can see the poetry itself the base of Albanian moto). In the beginning the main idea was the defense of the lands inhabited by Albanians which were pretended by their neighbors (right or wrong is another issue). Even after the partition of the Ottoman Empire in 1913 (where many Albanian inhabited territories were given to the neighbors) the Albanianism was a factor of the unity of the people (having different religions and local traditions). In communism this moto was used against religion by the communist regime again against religion (see above) so we can say that Albanianism is more related to ethnic identity of the Albanians (how an Albanian is self-defined) giving the different religions in Albania. To be an Albanian it is in no way related to the religion you belong, but to the national identity (mostly language and now common history). A inverse example would have been the role of the religion in national identity especially in the Balkans. (Bosnia eg the same originally Slav population is self defined by the religion. Bosnians, Serbs, Croat as related to Moslem, Orthodox and Catholic religion). Common line Albanianism is a factor of unity among Albanians. Aigest (talk) 12:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Basically, where are you getting at Aigest? AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see. You don't have to answer. AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• As another user (Visar arifaj) tried to explain above Albanianism term was first attested in National Renaissance of Albania period as an ideological nationalistic background trying to forge the unity among Albanians. It is related to Albanian nationalism in the sense that it can be considered as an ethnic type of nationalism.

• The pan-Albanianism is a neologism a term used only very recently by foreign scholars. It is related to the term Greater Albania. It is to be noted that Albanians themselves use the term Ethnic Albania instead of Greater Albania. The term Greater Albania was introduced by Italians in 1940 trying to gain support from Albanians in their wars with Greece and Yugoslavia when part of neighbor's territories were annexed to Albanian satellite state. The same was done by Nazi Germans later. The term refers to territories once inhabited by ethnic Albanians.

Accordingly Albanianism and Pan-Albanianism are not the same. The first term represents the nationalism or patriotism while the second one represents the irredentism Aigest (talk) 13:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

today they are used to define Albanian nationalism15:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanian religion

• Nihil obstat: religion, politics, and social change in East-Central Europe and Russia Author Sabrina P. Ramet Publisher Duke University Press, 1998 ISBN 0822320703, 9780822320708

Not only can one no longer speak of "Albanianism" as a religion, but one can no longer even use the phrase "the religion of Albania" coherently. p.226

Albanianism is used for Albanian nationalism in modern context as the refs show and thats what it is.The religion of Albanians is nationalism.Megistias (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Synthesis of published material that advances a position

Magistias! Your references are really massive and helpful, but I think that we have to be careful with WP:SYNTH. I think there is a lot of sentences that have this problem. You have to find proper references on these sentences. Otherwise they are in contradiction with WP policy. AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with AnnaFabiano here as this is a delicate topic. As my comment for the first paragraph the use of terms Revanchism irredentism or ethnic superiority against their neighboring states and peoples is unacceptable. This kind of vocabulary is not mentioned in any nationalism related article even those propagated by the state such as Megali Idea or Načertanije. I am going to remove that sentence until you find exact inline citation. Aigest (talk) 14:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This is about modern nationalism Megali Idea or Načertanije are not modern.The article is supported by referneces.Just like Anna you are just disrupting.Megistias (talk) 14:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't own the article, please collaborate and stop doing WP:SYNTH Aigest (talk) 14:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:SYNTH. AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop pretending you dont know English.Megali Idea and Načertanije are old.This is modern and not Synth.Megistias (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

"This article is about modern nationalism Megali Idea or Načertanije are not modern." What kind of logic is that? as for references they don't specifically say that. Given the sensibility of the topic a full inline citation would have been more appropriate than your periphasing which is specifically WP:SYNTH Aigest (talk) 14:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Find a reference that shows "revanchism" or "ethnic superiority against their neighboring states and peoples"! AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

As i pointed out in my comments the reference are linked to territorial rights (we were before them etc) not to ethnic superiority. Don't misuse references. Aigest (talk) 09:23, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The article is mainly based on theories, most of them adopted by local scholars. I will try to make a copy-edit job, but massive deletion of comment is just unconstructive. AnnaFabiano: I'm sure we can reach a concensus, in order to improve the article's quality. The disagreement is mostly based on minor expressions Alexikoua (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ref11.Communism and the Emergence of Democracy by Harald Wydra,2007,ISBN-10-0521851696,page 230,"Albanians tended to go further back in time to the sixth and seventh centuries, claiming an Illyrian- Albanian continuity and superiority over Slavic people. ..."

• This example has to do with ethnic superiority and many references point this out all over the article.Pretending you cant read English?Megistias (talk) 09:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• 1 The reference is not a book on the topic
• 2 The author is not an expert or an authority on this specific field in fact in the book reviews the author is accused of "Where he does cite the literature Wydra does so in a very tendentious or exaggerated manner. One could pick out many examples of this" or "Wydra to back his argument by making conceptual connections that do not exist or are very fragile at best." or "The thinness of Wydra's research and descriptive analysis is simply stunning. As is often the case with potted history, interpretation is sometimes so abrupt that it leads to errors. It is incredible how off the mark Wydra is at times and this has to cast doubts on how much he actually knows about the subjects he is writing about and the diligence of his research." you can find the full review here [3] and that makes him not an authority in this matter
• 3 That specific comment was for Kosovo issue.Giving the reviews I am doubting about his claim but anyway from that reference you can say that Kosovar Albanians pretended that Illyrian Albanians were superior to Slavs, while Slavs pretended that they were "the elected people". That belongs to Myths and Identities on both sides we have a specific book on this (Fischer) which can be used in the article Aigest (talk) 10:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Make an article on modern Serbian nationalism thenMegistias (talk) 15:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Point of the article

After seeing all Balkan related articles in Wiki (in Alphabetical order) Bosnian nationalism, Bulgarian nationalism, Croatian nationalism, Greek nationalism, Romanian nationalism, Serb nationalism, Slovenian nationalism, and Rise of nationalism under the Ottoman Empire sincerely I don't see where this article is pointing at.

• Does it point to Albanian Nationalism history? Then it began with National Renaissance of Albania and continued after
• Does it point to Albanianism concept? It is a factor of unity, religious tolerance and identity, began with Pashko Vasa poetry
• Does it point to Greater Albania? It is an irredentist concept, which has it's own article.
• Does it point to Albanian Myths and Identities? There is a book on that, but that is different from Albanian nationalism

Can we have a clear picture what do you have in mind Megistias. In this state the article is a mish-mash of the above topics. Aigest (talk) 10:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Although this article has a huge amount of useful information, I think it can all be spread to other articles. Albanian nationalism and independence, Great Albania and Albanianism (would be a good article).

There is no information about Albanian nationalism per se. There is information about Pan-Albanianism and Albanianism. Which are two separate articles.

Nevertheless maybe we can wait and see where Magistias is headed with this. AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Misleading,pretending not to read or understand the references again AnnaMegistias (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Lead

This version

Albanian nationalism (also known as Albanianism[1][2][3][4][5] or Pan-Albanianism[6][7]) refers to nationalist Albanian ideologies and theories that were cemented during Communist Albania (1945-1991), its continuation into modern Albania, as well as its proliferation in Kosovo. Albanian nationalist ideology considers Albanians to be Illyrians and co-identifies them with Ancient Greeks, Pelasgians[8][9] and Etruscans[10] giving all these peoples Albanian origins. This historical revisionist ideology is linked mainly with, irredentism and concepts of ethnic superiority against their neighboring states and peoples[11][12][13][14]

• Is pure WP:SYNTH
• References are misquoted, they are linked with territorial claim not ethnic superiority see above debate

Albanian nationalism (also known as Albanianism[1][2][3][4][5] or Pan-Albanianism[6][7]) refers to nationalist Albanian ideologies and theories that were cemented during Communist Albania (1945-1991), Albaniansins and Pan-Albanianism were cemented during HOXHA? Who says that?

1. Albanianism was originated and developed during National resistance. Later it was used by Hoxha against religion, into building the new socialist man. However Hoxha's arguments were others(marxist terms and logic, internationalism, oppression etc)

2. Pan-Albanianism was originated by Italians and was never used by Hoxha, on the contrary its political adversaries accused him of "selling" Kosovo

its continuation into modern Albania, as well as its proliferation in Kosovo?

1. Kosovo was the origin of Albanian nationalism and the main factor in Albanian indipendence

Albanian nationalist ideology considers Albanians to be Illyrians and co-identifies them with Ancient Greeks, Pelasgians[8][9] and Etruscans[10]

1. Can I have a text of Albanian nationalist ideology? Who published that and who supported. Read ideology what it means first

2. Co-identifies with Ancient greeks? Who said that? Albanian nationalist ideology not for sure, maybe some self made publications of wannabe historians amateurs

3. Etruscans? Sure were not messapians? The same as above argument

giving all these peoples Albanian origins.?

1. Yeah sure Albanians originated Pelasgians:)

This historical revisionist ideology

1. Can we have a text of Albanian revisionist ideology? You mean they revisioned the old one? What happened to poor Pelasgians?

is linked mainly with, irredentism and concepts of ethnic superiority against their neighboring states and peoples[11][12][13][14]

1. References are linked to territorial claim (We were here before them argument) not to ethnic superiority.

For these reason this paragraph is unacceptable Aigest (talk) 14:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You are lying and misleading, take your Albanian gang and scurry off.Hoxha and communism was nationalistic to the max as the references dictate.Hitler like tactics followed by Hoxha.Oust.14:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ganging up wont work.People can read the References.Megistias (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The modern Albanian state as well as the communistic supports this crap,Megistias (talk) 14:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, this has to stop NOW

This article is turning into a joke. Everyone can make claims and find references that support your claims (e.g.: Greek and Serbian nationalism have claims to destroy Albania and Albanians, Macedonia and Greece: the struggle to define a new Balkan nation By John Shea, page 341 this book and Greek government has claims for "northern Epirus and local [Greek] politicians quietly advocate separatism Revolution and change in Central and Eastern Europe By Minton F. Goldman, page 18 and here). The main purpose of Wikipedia is to inform people. Wikipedia is not a place for propaganda. AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Leave Albanian gang.The article is getting vandalized everytime you edit it.Your only desire is to dissasembly and make it dissapear.You fake not being able to understand sources and mislead.References speak for themselves.Megistias (talk) 15:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

What a joke, propaganda is all that the Albanian educational system is as the references say.If you dont like it make a Greek nationalism article about modern and current nationalism.Megistias (talk) 15:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Pseudohistorical claims by the Albanian goverment and other Albanian sources are on the level of this ridiculous thing Epsilon Team.Star trek circus junk!Megistias (talk) 15:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias, I am from Kosovo. I have been through the school system here and I can assure you that it has nothing to do with the ideologies you are talking about. I can provide you with the schoolbooks if necessary. Yes, the books claim that the Albanians are descendants of Illyrians but there are no mentions of superiority to other neighboring nations (or claim that Aristotle was Albanian!!! I first heard that from you). As you might be aware, more than half of the Albanians live outside of Albania. That being the case, it is wrong to associate Enver Hoxha's ideas of nationalism which were with all Albanian nationalism. Albanian Nationalism is not that of Albanians in Albania but of all the Albanians in the Balkans.--Visar Arifaj (talk) 15:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Alexander the Great and Aristotle refers to Albanian schoolbooks in Albania not in Kosovo.The article does not assume that all Albanians are nationalists but that to a point the state system and the private factors push things in that direction.Megistias (talk) 15:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Me and man other users have spent several thousands of hours staving off claims against various ancient Greeks by Albanian users that claim they were Albanian or similar situations related to such(laughable) claims.Example;There are Albanian users claiming that Odysseus was Albanian.Megistias (talk) 15:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

In that case the page should be called "Nationalism in Albania" not "Albanian Nationalism" because the second one includes all the Albanians. If we want to write about Albanian Nationalism then we have to start from the Albanian Renaissance. It has started before creation of the creation of the country Albania which left out mos of Albanians. I think Aigest has given a pretty good outline of how we can classify Albanian Nationalism--Visar Arifaj (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, claims like "Odysseus was Albanian" are ridiculous but we have to be careful not to put our private encounters with historical, official or mass claims.--Visar Arifaj (talk) 16:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

sadly the propaganda of the communist regime in Albania has carried on today.Schoolbooks and official state positions.Megistias (talk) 16:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

For that reason I'm suggesting (above) that that should be called "Nationalism in Albania" because it was isolated within the Albanian state and not spread throughout all Albanians.--Visar Arifaj (talk) 16:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanian nationalism POV

NPOV disputed? AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC) Tendentious editing and vandalism? AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You are the ones ganging up and vandalizing while attempting to discredit the article and the references.Megistias (talk) 16:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)