Talk:Hamas

Quotes in citations

As per the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 19#Quotes in references and per WP:COPYVIO I will remove the quotes within the citations. This will also make the article a bit shorter (especially the references section) and easier to edit.

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 04.07.2008 06:18

However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements[7] reflect an incontrovertible evidence of Anti-zionism.

Was Hamas created in 1976, 1987, 1988?

1976

The Oxford World Encyclopedia: "Hamas¶ The Islamic Resistance Movement founded in 1976 by Sheikh Yassin Ahmed, with the aim of creating an Islamic state in the former Palestine. "

1987:

Wikipedia: "Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada."

The Corporate Security Professional's Handbook on Terrorism: "Hamas was a splinter group of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood and was created as a separate organization in 1987."

1988

http://www.ajc.org/atf/cf/%7B42D75369-D582-4380-8395-D25925B85EAF%7D/HAMAS2006.PDF: Hamas is a creation of the Palestinian branch of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood movement. The organization was created in 1988 by the late Sheikh 11 Ahmad Yassin, the Hamas ideologue and founder who was then a preacher of the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood movement in Gaza. In concurrence with his teachings, Yassin and his followers formed Hamas as the “military wing” of the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood. 86.68.157.246 (talk) {BG}; edited: 86.68.157.246 (talk) {BG}

Section removed from 2008-2009 Israeli-Gaza conflict

I've put this here, as it was inappropriate to a discussion of International law on the other page.

Indeed, Hamas continues to emphasize and promote the religious ideology that death for Allah is an ideal to be actively pursued. The goal is to convince Palestinians, including women and children, not to fear death but even to face it at the front to protect Hamas fighters. A Hamas representative in the PA legislative council this year expressed pride on Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) in the fact that women and children are used as human shields in fighting Israel. He described it as part of a "death industry" at which Palestinians excel, and explained that the Palestinians "desire death" with the same intensity that Israelis "desire life."

Spelling/Translation error

In the first few lines of the article it reads: "Hamas (حماس Ḥamās, an acronym of حركة المقاومة الاسلامية Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement")"

The romanised text should read Ḥarakat al-Muqāwama al-Islāmiyyah, as the word following is an adjective, and not another noun. In these instances, the tah marboutah is not pronounced.

Terrorism Activities

As this is a major part of what Hamas does it should be eralier on. Such as Hmas armed bridgader engages in major terrorist activitiesTannim1 (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by several nations is brought up at the end of the first paragraph. Angling for anything earlier than that, e.g. a line that straight-out says "Hamas is a terrorist organization" will not fly per words to avoid guidelines. Tarc (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I read the words to avoid and it also states if there is a good reasonto consider using it can be discussed. Hams actions makes them terrorists or at least it shld be more prominent. A rough analogy would be Al Capone operated Soup Kitchens in the 1930 some people considered him a gangsterTannim1 (talk) 16:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What the article does is describe the organization neutrally, and explains who considers them a terrorist organization and why. "Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by..." is far more neutral and even then a declarative "Hamas is a terrorist organization...". If you are here to push the latter, then you're going to be in for some sore disappointment around here since the Wikipedia project is not to be used as a battle field. Tarc (talk) 17:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Tannim1, I understand how you feel, and I happen to agree with you on this point, but take it from someone who's been here a while - this is the way it is, and this is the way it's going to stay. It's a point so strongly entrenched in Wikipedia customs by now, that you're wasting your breath trying to argue against it.

In any case, remember - it's always better to describe facts, and let the reader decide. Thus, we describe what Hamas does that led so many governments to consider it a terrorist organization - suicide bombing, etc, and let the reader form his opinion. okedem (talk) 17:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Okedem Thank you for your comment, I guess I find it hard to understand why Wikiepedia editors are more concerned about PC than facts.Tannim1 (talk) 18:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The attempt by certain editors in this article to marginalize Hamas violence against civilians does not seem to stem from a concern for political correctness, but from a desire to portray Hamas in a positive light. But you can look through the history and decide for yourself. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 22:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That isnt fair or accurate. It is not "so many" governments that consider Hamas a terrorist organization, in fact many, many more do not consider it a terrorist organization. There is also much more on this page dealing with violent activities compared to their social programs. For as many users who want to portray Hamas in a "good light" there are many more users who want to try and portray them in a "bad light", and too few who just want to say who they are and what they do and not put their own spin on it. nableezy - 22:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Hamas habitually engages in terrorist activites, as explicitly noted by the entries in both the Britannica and Encarta encyclopedias, which are linked to from the article. If a company makes sprockets, it doesn't need to be recognized as a sprocket company by any government in order for an encyclopedia to say that it makes sprockets. It would be nice if we could just copy the article on Hamas from a real encyclopedia and paste it here. Sure, it would be plagiarism, but it would make a better article and allow many of us to avoid spending our precious time on this earth in Wikipedia battles. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's helpful to think of it in terms of "many, many more [governments] do not consider [Hamas] a terrorist organization." A lot of governments -- possibly most governments -- simply aren't interested in making any such distinction or pronouncement, whatever their "real" feelings on the matter. I think, in terms of RS's, that there'd be wide agreement on this point. Can people point to sources that say "Hamas is not a terrorist organization?" IronDuke 22:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure can, Hamas has a socio-political wing and a military wing, Historically, Hamas has sponsored an extensive social service network. The group has also operated a terrorist wing. Responsible sources dont focus on just the military wing of Hamas, which has admittedly carried out attacks classified as "terrorist". It is much more than this and pretending that it can be called, in its entirety, a "terrorist organization" is nonsense. It is much less clear cut than calling the Irgun a "terrorist organization", and we dont do that. nableezy - 22:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't be opposed to mentioning it has a terrorist wing in the lead. Does that work for you? IronDuke 22:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We could also say, using one of your sources, "Hamas is believed to have killed more than five hundred people in more than 350 separate terrorist attacks since 1993." IronDuke 22:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) There are also sources that call it a resistance organization that fights Israeli occupation. Would saying that work for you? I have a problem calling the organization terrorist, I dont have a problem saying that they have committed terrorist attacks. Terrorism is a tactic that can describe individual attacks without issue. But here is one source that calls it an "Islamic militant resistance organization". Here is another one that says "Hamas is first and foremost a resistance organization". I dont think you can call a group a terrorist organization in WP's narrative voice. I would not be opposed to saying they have a militant wing that has carried out terrorist attacks, but I would be opposed to calling that wing "terrorist". nableezy - 23:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(reply to last ID note) yes we could, I am not opposed to calling individual attacks terrorist. nableezy - 23:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I t think it can be both a "resistance movement" and a terrorist one. But you may be on the right track, in terms of emphasizing that there are, in a sense, two Hamas's (if I'm reading you right). Other people's thoughts on this, i.e., bifurcating acts from entire organizational structure? IronDuke 23:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I accept Nableezy's position that "carried out terrorist attacks" is more accurate than "terrorist organization" regarding Hamas, and so do Encarta and Britannica. Encarta has "Hamas has engaged in terrorist activities" and Britannica attributes a "campaign of terrorism" or "terrorist campaign" to Hamas' armed wing. I also agree with Ironduke that there is no contradiction betweeen resistance and terrorism. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well thanks for accepting that part of my position, but ID only answered half of the question asked. I specifically said "a resistance organization fighting Israeli occupation". I have a feeling that, as easily as it can be sourced, would not fly. My sentence, including the word terrorist would be as follows: "Hamas is a resistance organization that fights against Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands. It has a military wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, that has carried out terrorist attacks to further that resistance". But I doubt that would be accepted. Would you like to propose a sentence that we can take a look at? nableezy - 23:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think a problem there might be defining "Israeli occupation." It could easily, for example, be construed to mean Israel itself. No? IronDuke 23:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No. It has been used that way by some people, but that is a fringe view, sort of on the level of fringeyness as saying that E. Jerusalem is not occupied Palestinian territory. That term, "occupied Palestinian territory", has a very specific and well-defined meaning. It would be a bit like me saying there is a problem with defining "Israel", as some incredibly fringey publications are under the impression it includes the West Bank (including E. Jerusalem), Gaza and the Golan. It doesnt and the word means something specific. nableezy - 00:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't accept that sentence, among other reasons because Hamas is also fighting against the Israeli occupation of what we call Israel, which is not Palestinian land. I would propose just taking a sentence from Encarta or Britannica. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"Some people" here would include Hamas, no? Who have called for the destruction of the state of Israel and the etsablismeent of (all of ) Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital? IronDuke 00:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

On occasion, yes Hamas has said that, though they also have said they would accept a state within the Green line in exchange for a long term truce. Im sure we could find a way to clarify the meaning of what it is they fight for. But that is discussion that is best kept separate from determining how, or whether, to include the word "terrorist". nableezy - 00:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

we need to stick to the guideline here. per wp:terrorist, the note on this very talkpage says that words like terrorist and freedom fighter are "inherently non-neutral, so they should not be used as unqualified labels in the voice of the article. If a reliable source describes a person or group using one of these words, then the description must be attributed in the article text to its source, preferably by direct quotation, and always with a verifiable citation." both views (terrorist and resistance) are notable but they need to be attributed. First Israel widthdrew from Gaza, so Hamas is lying about armed resistance. The only reason not to display what Hamas is known most for which is terrorism, is the anti-Isarael bias of some editors and administrators.Tannim1 (talk) 14:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)