Talk:South Tyrol

ATTENTION, ADMIN PLEASE READ

I just wanted to let you know that on facebook there is group called "ALTO ADIGE IS NOT "SUD TIROL"", a group lead by italian neo-fascists that invite users to come here and on Orlter article page, to modify the pages

Is it possible to lock the page so that only registered users can modify it? --Sp4rr0W (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The name of this page is still wrong

Why do you continue to use this wrong name? As stated on the english version of the local administratior, our land is called: "Autonomous Province of Bozen/Bolzano - South Tyrol" This is the correct name in english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.45.104.136 (talk) 08:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello! I can confirm it. I just sent an email and got replies from local administration offices. The official english name is Autonomous Province of Bozen/Bolzano - South Tyrol For cities and places, the german version is used in english

Ortler is the English translation of the German. English is a Germanic language. End of story. The majority language of the provice is German WITH the approval of the Italian Govt. and the local community. Deal with it! I suggest that all names be given in German first and then the Italian version provided as a second option. A few cities however have Italian majorties like the capital and Merano/Meran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.148.55 (talk) 09:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to tell to everyone that an anonymous user (but I think we all know that it was Mr. Kellyempire09 or one of his friends) modified my comment...

--Sp4rr0W (talk) 23:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop changing the english names in german names! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.15.223.124 (talk) 15:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

All the wrong names will sonn be changed. Please help us to this big work.

Meran's climate area

I think Meran should be included among the cities in the Adige's Valley climate area. User:Skafa/Sign 22:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Please translate the Geography > Climate section!

While this section is very well appreciated, there are many terms not terribly intelligible to a native English speaker. It seems to be a quick translation job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.230.180 (talk) 07:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

South Tyrolean parties

There is a lot of work about South Tyrolean parties in en.Wiki... who wants to give a hand?

It would be very useful to translate into en.Wiki articles:

• de:Südtiroler Volkspartei (see South Tyrolean People's Party)
• de:Union für Südtirol (see Union for South Tyrol)
• de:Die Freiheitlichen (see The Libertarians)
• de:Süd-Tiroler Freiheit (see South Tyrolean Freedom)
• de:Südtiroler Heimatbund (no article yet in en.Wiki)
• de:Grüne (Südtirol) (see Greens (Province of Bolzano-Bozen))

Morever, there are other parties without an article both in de.Wiki and en.Wiki (Partei der Unabhängigen, Freiheitliche Partei Südtirols, Soziale Fortschrittspartei Südtirols, Wahlverband des Heimatbundes and Tiroler Heimatpartei), while Social Democratic Party of South Tyrol and Democratic Party of South Tyrol need expansion. Can anyone write at least a line or two on these parties: having an article with the name of the party translated would be incredibly useful.

Help, help! --Checco (talk) 20:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Climate section

There is no reference, and, as far as I know, no data for some of the places in the text. True data can be found at: http://www.provinz.bz.it/hydro/wetterdaten/index_i.htm http://erg7118.casaccia.enea.it/Pagine/Index.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaveH 87 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Adesc Aut

The claim that the term Adesc Aut is used in the Ladin language is not correct:

• Usc di Ladins (the newspaper): 0 Adesc Aut, 231 Südtirol, 19 Alto Adige, 46 Sudtirol
• Istitut Ladin "Micurà de Rü" (the language and culture institute): 0 Adesc Aut, 84 Südtirol, 223 Alto Adige, 0 Sudtirol
• Union Generela di Ladins dla Dolomites (the three- provincial political association): 0 Adesc Aut, 203 Südtirol, 78 Alto Adige, 0 Sudtirol
• Jent Ladin Dolomites (the party): 0 Adesc Aut, 478 Südtirol, 225 Alto Adige, 9 Sudtirol
• Amisc dla Ladinia Unida (the Reunification Association): 3 Adesc Aut, 313 Südtirol, 1150 Alto Adige, 103 Sudtirol

lets sum up: Adesc Aut 3, Südtirol 1309, Alto Adige 1695, Sudtirol 153 - in total Adesc Aut gets 565 hits; and if one removes the regions name Trentin-Adesc Aut from th google search we get 69 hits - in short: fringe theory. Adesc Aut is almost only used to name the region, but even that very seldom (338 hits) - the province of Bozen doesn't even use the term once on its homepage [1], neither does the region of Trentino Alto Adige [2], or the province of Trento [3] nor the province of Belluno [4]... also Adesc Aut is unknown by google books [5]. I therefore changed the line in the introduction. --noclador (talk) 03:21, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, adesc aut returns almost 20,000 hits for me. There must be some kind of regional variation. --Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 12:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And differently from what is reported in the current versions, they do use the umlauts in südtirol.--Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 12:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

If you google "Adesc Aut" you get indeed over 20,000 hits; but always control what the results are: Adesc Aut returns 20,000 hits and the first hit is "ADESA, North America's premier vehicle auction operator." Google is assuming that Adesc Aut is a misspelled ADESA Auto. now if you realize this google error search anew with "Adesc Aut" -Adesa and voila 717 hits refining that search further to exclude wiki related results (our articles and the many copies thereof) add -wiki and now you get 565 hits - and this is the true figure. So, whenever doing a google search look at the first 20-30 results to avoid wrong positives. As a result you will see that no official institution and no Ladin association uses Adesc Aut.

also the two sources given are useless: both do not refer to the province but the region and the padaniacity.org article is copied from the www.noeles.net: so one source is a copy of the other! that's a big no-no! also noeles.net uses Adesc Aut 71, Alto Adige 251 and Sudtirol and its variations (Südtirol, Sudtirolo) 1360 times... Adesc Aut is but a fringe theory - looking at the minimal use and the sources I dare say Adesc Aut was added through original research by an editor. --noclador (talk) 14:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Fringe theory and original research. LOL. Noclador, Adesc Aut was added because it was shown in the context of an Ladin website concerning official affairs. Icsunonove (talk) 06:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• Stop trying to destroy culture Noclador, it is getting very old. There was a link to an official institution using Adesc Aut, that now happens to be broken. That does not mean that we then delete the information. It is a valid term, and there is no benefit to erasing a word... UNLESS you have an agenda. I noticed Hochetsch was also deleted. I guess that is also not fitting with the agena. Icsunonove (talk) 07:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It was not a official institution as you claim - official institutions do NOT use Adesc Aut! Also Adesc Aut is a translation of Alto Adige and is not used in Ladin to describe the province of Bolzano - there is no Ladin name for the province and Ladins use therefore Alto Adige or Südtirol! Adesc Aut is not Ladin culture - if wikipedia administrators ask for it I can ask the head of Istitut Ladin "Micurà de Rü" and the president of the Union Generela di Ladins dla Dolomites to write a email to ORTS that states that Adesc Aut is "un nome storpiato italiano" (a deformed Italian name) and that it is a falsification to claim that Adesc Aut is used by the Ladins. Hochetsch was deleted by your friend Suppaluca [6]. So go report me - you who have no clue about Ladin! The Ladin scholars are waiting. --noclador (talk) 07:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL, I know and speak a dialect of Ladin, a language of my ancestors before your's came here, that much I'm certain. :) You definitely do not say "Upper" before "Adige", it is the other way around in Ladin grammar. You don't believe this? I have now shown four links that mention Adesc Aut, and indeed there exist official translations in Ladin that use Trentin-Adesc Aut or Trentino-Adesc Aut. I agree that typically it is not used to describe the province, but saying adesc aut is indeed a phrase in Ladin. The point is listing what is used by Ladin speakers. There is usage demonstrated as shown by those references, you can't simply erase what those Ladin speakers said. Having a president of the Union of Ladins say they are wrong, does not make it become unused. Geez. Furthermore, in Ladin the word is simply NOT Adige. It is a word that sounds like Adesc, Ades, or Adis. It is definitely not Adige. Also, there are MANY variations of Ladin my dear Noclador, and the Union of the Ladins does not speak for everyone.. by a long shot. Icsunonove (talk) 07:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

of these valid references of yours 3 are exactly the same! your incompetence is staggering - don't you even read your sources? Maybe than you would discover that they are 3x times the same stuff on 3x different pages. --noclador (talk) 07:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I was just posting articles, EXCUSE ME if I posted multiple ones. Incompetence, eh? Is that the best insult you can make my angry friend? I have a sense that I've done so much more in my professional and technical career than you would find difficult to manage in many lives Noclador. It would be entertaining to know your true credentials. Icsunonove (talk) 07:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• Nope, you were WRONG Noclador!  :) I note that one of the four references was a duplicate article. Excuse me; it has been deleted. That you have to run around ranting and saying something like "your incompetence is staggering" over a simple post of one write-up twice shows your utter desperation. You completely can not discuss anything in a calm and rational manner. I don't know what the heck is going on within your life, but I've rarely seen anyone that needs to be told so emphatically to CHILL OUT. Icsunonove (talk) 07:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• I guess this official trilingual document from the commune of Ortisei is also not good enough either? [7] Whatever you believe of the origins are Noclador, this term is used here as recently as 2008 in official documents from Ortisei. That signifies clear usage of this term, so you have to deal with it. You can get a scholar to say those Ladin speakers are wrong, it does not matter.. they use that term. ...and as I've said multiple times, Adige is not even the Ladin word. Adesc/Ades/Adis and Tirol are the words for Adige and Tirolo, respectively... Icsunonove (talk) 08:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Comment

May I remind both of you that you are fighting over a wording? Take a look at the bigger picture: WP:BACKLOG. In regards to the actual dispute, there is a strong sense of WP:COI here and it's best avoided if all of you just quit the article completely.
Another piece of advice: If at any time you find yourself too deeply involved in an argument/discussion, just leave. Just leave and run away because no doubt one of you will end up having a heart attack and I don't want to find out about a Wikipedian dying because of something so small.
We write material on Wikipedia for the betterment of the readers, not for ourselves. Can you seriously ask yourselves: Is the reader going to care? Will the reader benefit from this small change in wording? The answer to that question can be summed up in one little word: No.
I don't want to block anyone over something so tiny and miniscule, so here's the deal... If both of you continue to fight over this (i.e. edit war et al), then I will 1) Lock the article completely 2) Forward this to WP:MEDIATION, okay? It's as simple as that.
If any of you have any questions, please reply here to keep this all in one place. Thanks in advance. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 13:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this article should be moved to Province of Bozen / Bolzano since the majority is german speaking, and the region is historically german speaking as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jadran91 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Language

The region is not exactely historically German speaking and all the words must be used in the Italian way as warded by the Italian Costitution. Besides how can Ötztal Alps be an English term?Is Ö an english alphabet letter?ALL the words concerning the Region Trentino Aledto Adige must be corrected as indicated by The Italian Costitution, here an xample: "ARTICOLO 116 DELLA COSTITUZIONE ITALIANA": L'articolo 116 della Costituzione della Repubblica italiana recita: "La Regione Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol è costituita dalle Province autonome di Trento e di Bolzano". L'Ente pertanto utilizza in tutti i suoi atti la doppia denominazione "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige" (ufficialmente tradotto in tedesco nella forma "Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellyempire09 (talk • contribs) 14:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• I am sick and tired of Kellyempire09 pretending thast there is some constitutional basis. The Constitution is available in an English version so any English speakers can see that Article 116 says absolutely nothing about what language should be used. Likewise, see WikiDan61's note here which confirms that "Statuto della Regione Autonoma Trentino-Alto Adige-Sudtyrol" shows no requirement of any publication to use any particular toponym. Kelly, you might actually get some support if you would stop this ridiculous pseudo-legal argument and present sound examples of actual usage. — [[::User:RHaworth|RHaworth]] (talk · contribs) 09:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Oke i won't try to correct any more, every time i try you, the admins, bring back to the previous wrong versions. I'm aware that wikipedia is an unreliable encyclopaedia, incomplete, erroneous and tendentious and the admins are stupid and arrogant, mostly when provided supports. I think it's because this is the Wikipedia's business. Here some the examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_further_tunnels_by_length Milano is not the english term for Milano, indeed it's Milan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ortler Ortler is not the english term for Ortles, indeed it's Ortles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Bolzano-Bozen Is Ötztal Alps english?And Weißkugel? I don't see Vetta d'Italia (in german Klockerkarkopf or Glockenkarkopf). I'm sure there won't be any answer for these questions, as for all the previous questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellyempire09 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Please follow this link: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Italy. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 14:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

As argumentative as Kellyempire09 can be, I'm glad to see that this user is finally using the consensus process and addressing concerns on the appropriate talk pages rather than blindly and single-handedly changing things. Now that the matter has been brought to discussion, can anyone who reads German or Italian find anything useful at the link given at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Italy. Apparently this document provides a survey of the local language statistics; in the absence of a preferred English name, most places should be named in the prevalent language of their inhabitants. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:09, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

And that's the actual practice. Regards, --Mai-Sachme (talk) 18:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Kellyempire09 is just a stupid italian nationalist that ignores history. South Tyrol is a german region since 1200 years. I think he should open more some history books rathern than modifying wikipedia pages. By the way in english the german names are official. And by the way here in South Tyrol no none says Ortles. everyone says ORTLER. From now on I will begin to monitoring this page so that Mr. Kellyempire09 will stop modifying the page!!! Soth Tyrol is not italian speaking region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.44.107.71 (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Mai-Sachme is the real nationalist and he is likely an austrian fascist, too: Mr. Mai-Sachme wants to justify the austrian occupation. A quick look in a trustworthy history book will show how the now-days region of Alto-Adige was homeland of the romansh-venetian people who has always been living there. The process of germanization rised during the '700 and was forced after the 1866 in consequence of the defeat and the loss of most the invaded territories in Italy. This region was not a German region, and it was not occupied for 1200 years, isn't just reliable but historically unfair. Dear Mr. Mai-Sachme, you should know that History must not be rewrite, mostly just for political campain ;D Besides the mountain Ortles is between two Italian regions, Lombardy and Trentino-Alto-Adige, as well known. In Lombardy the common term used by the local population is Ortles, the equivalent term in english used by official institution is Ortles. In Trentino-Alto-Adige the common term used by the italian speaking local population is Ortles, Ortler by the austrian speaking local population, and the equivalent term in english used by official institution is Ortles, as i proved. How can consider realiable "Ortler" as a correct english word? How can consider realiable "Soth Tyrol is not italian speaking region"? I think wikipedia shouldn't be a blog for debating and abusing by racists users but a free encyclopedia open to everyone who wants to know.

What you wrote is not true. Just open a history book: what you are writing is a non-sense! This region never wanted to be italian. If you are a frustrated, italian nationalist is your problem. Ortler is the correct name, as Ortler is a south tyrolean mountain. Call things with their name!!! --Sp4rr0W (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know how common the Italian use of the term "sudtirolo" is? I think perhaps its also a common alt. to the italian alto-adige. There is also very little mention of the role language and mutli-lingualism plays in the Ladin community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.148.55 (talk) 10:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello. SudTirolo is also common as it is more "politically correct". It is currently used in newspapers, from politicians and also from people. --Sp4rr0W (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Sudtyrolo is not an italian name, it's a fascist name. It's politically uncorrect. Alto Adige is the italain and english name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.15.223.124 (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)