Talk:Everton F.C.

Rivalry sentence

Quick question. Does this sentence under "Stadium" need to mention the "respectful" rivalry with Liverpool, or should it just remain "rivalry?" Who is perceiving the rivalry as such? From reading the entry on Liverpool_F.C. I do not get the same idea:

Ever since those events, a fierce rivalry has existed between Everton and Liverpool, albeit one that is generally perceived as more respectful than many other derbies in English football.

At the very least it needs some sort reference, maybe an article or it will probably need a Template:Weasel-inline added while it is being pondered.--Virgil Vaduva (talk) 18:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think describing it as a fierce rivalry is accurate and leaves the reader with an informed view. I believe the "respectful" aspect is more subjective and needs a citation however. I don't wholly disagree with that interpretation (red and blue shirts walking home together is a common sight) but I think a source should be given. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

British English

I've added the template to the top of the talk page, and changed the grammar of some of the references in the lead so as to conform with the traditional English habit of treating clubs as a plural. 'Everton are' rather than 'Everton is' for example, as per WP:ENGVAR and WP:PLURALS - Chrism would like to hear from you 17:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Honours

I was thinking of changing the layout of the Honours section from this:

• (Old) First Division: 9^{[nb 1]}Up until 1992, the top division of English football was the Football League First Division; since then, it has been the Premier League.</ref>
  • 1890–91, 1914–15, 1927–28, 1931–32, 1938–39, 1962–63, 1969–70, 1984–85, 1986–87

• (Old) First Division Runners-up: 7
  • 1889-90, 1894-95, 1901-02, 1904-05, 1908-09, 1911-12, 1985-86

To something more like this:

• (Old) First Division:
  • Champions (9) - 1890–91, 1914–15, 1927–28, 1931–32, 1938–39, 1962–63, 1969–70, 1984–85, 1986–87
  • Runners-up (7) - 1889-90, 1894-95, 1901-02, 1904-05, 1908-09, 1911-12, 1985-86

I don't think the First Division, etc. bit needs repeating. Would anyone object to this? Dancarney (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

No. I think it's clear common sense. All the honours should be like that. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

More honours stuff

I've added the honours won in the Liverpool and Lancashire Senior Cups (taken from their respective articles) - not sure if anyone will object as not particularly notable. While today we compete using our reserve team in the liverpool senior cup, and no longer compete in the lancashire one, back in ye olden days the first team would have competed and its still an honour as such. And we technically nter as everton, not everton reserves or U-18s. Any thoughts? - Chrism would like to hear from you 17:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

St Luke's

A sentence stating that St Luke's is part of the ground was removed then reinserted, along with details of Goodison being the only stadium in the world with a church in its grounds. I can imagine a bit of contention is whether the church is actually in the grounds of Goodison, or that it's so tight to the Gwladys St and Main Stands that it is effectively within the grounds. Aside from this, CR Vasco da Gama's Estádio São Januário has a separate chapel building within the ground, so perhaps saying that Goodison is alone in having a church in the grounds is maybe not technically inaccurate, but is perhaps misleading. Dancarney (talk) 13:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

---

GP does NOT have church within its grounds FACT!!!!! Church grounds cuts into the symetry of the site. Two very different things!!!! The difference must be emphasised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.75.209 (talk) 15:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Writing "FACT!!!!!" doesn't prove anything. A citable source is needed one way or the other. Regardless, Goodison is in no way symmetrical with or without St Luke's. Dancarney (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

There is already a citable source provided, it's mentioned in the 'everton firsts' reference thats attached to that section. - Chrism would like to hear from you 17:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I checked it out and amended in order that the text matched the description in the source. Dancarney (talk) 22:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Next Season's Kits

I added Le Coq Sportif from 2009 to the kit/sponsers table. I know they don't take over until the summer but figured they might as well be added now, feel free to remove if someone strongly disagrees. I'm not sure if the club have officially confirmed that Le Coq are taking over from Umbro but megastore staff are telling customers that Le Coq are the new designers from next season and these leaked designs have now appeared on this website which appear to confirm the rumours: drawings of home and away kit here [1] and the rather more substantial evidence in the form of Neville and Howard modelling the new tracksuit and goalkeepers kit here [2]. I like the idea of basing the home kit on the 83-85 kit but don't like the panels. As for the away kit, I think it's looks horrendous from that preview. MarkB79 (talk) 02:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

You need to find a reliable source rather than rumour websites and such. Dancarney (talk) 08:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Bit over picky isn't it? The info about Le Coq has been there for months anyway and there are photos linked to there featuring Neville modeling the tracksuit and Howard the goalkeepers jersey, I think that's pretty conclusive. Besides, a photo of the shirt itself has been leaked today: [3]. I found out from here months back that Le Coq were likely to doing next years kit and was glad the info was there. 92.9.216.147 (talk) 17:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixing History

I recommend that we refocus and summarise the history section into three parts: Early years (formation to 1960), 1960–1992 (basically their most successful years in the post-war era), and Premier League (From league formation to present). I realise this may create a little recent-ism but I would envision that the latter section would be the smallest. The recent-ism present in the article now is worse by far (Everton Tigers? Standard Liege??). Headers would help organise the history information more coherently. Any information that is not of the utmost pertinence should be moved to History of Everton F.C. This article should be fully deserving of that little gold star. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 18:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

History

1. The initial formation

2. From church team to Top English team in a short time

3. The split in the club which was so severe it forced the club to move grounds

4. The results of the club's principles (created a ground initially better than all else.

5. The success of the club on the field. There is no most successful period, as the club has more seasons in the top-flight and scored more goals than all others, and only in the last season or so was eclipsed in most games won. Emphasis is to be upon the consistent top-flight competing nature of the club. Always there, always competing at the top level. No eternal phases in lower divisions. Evertonians only have ever seen top-class football in their 4 double-decker stands at GP, apart from 4 seasons. Everton are different.(unsigned) 79.66.15.240

Well that's some nice POV you're pushing there. Either way, a chronological approach is more logical than one which repeats "Still in the top flight scoring goals". Never had a most successful period? I think the League titles, FA Cups and Cup Winner's Cup won in the mid 1960s to mid 1980s is clearly the high point in their modern history, or should we emphasise how they have finished mid table (or worse) and won little in the periods between that? By all means state that they are a well-established and successful English football team (goals, appearances and all) but for the history we need more than the few little statements which we can derive from that.

I disagree with such a strong focus on the distant past. It should be adequately summarised instead. You do realise that Everton's history is more than 1880 to 1910? If they'd have finished as a club then, no one would give two hoots: They have won leagues, cups, and the respect of other clubs in the last fifty years. Pre-war, football wasn't as professional and Everton's successes from the sixties onwards are their real achievements, and should be emphasised as such. Remember: we have History of Everton F.C. to deal with topics more in-depth. The history section here should be succinct, to the point, and focused upon the most important information which really isn't minor details about how Goodison Park was in 1900. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it reasonable to describe a period covering about a quarter of a century as "clearly the high point in their modern history"? This "high point" had a 14 year lull in the middle. The pre-war era of about half as many seasons is as significant for the club as the 1960's or 1980's - surely two separate post-war era's. Your view of Everton's success over the last fifty years as being the club's "real achievements" seems ludicrous to me, as is the idea that the club hadn't "won leagues, cups, and the respect of other clubs" in the previous eighty years. You make some valid points, but they tend to be presented somewhat subjectively. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.236.3 (talk) 23:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

Why do you keep reverting Mr IP? Here are the problems you introduced here:

1. what is a "senior club"?

Everton - obvious!

1. only English teams have won the English League

10 of 10.

1. Using Everton repeatedly when alternatives suffice

They, their and ands is amateurish. The text is meant for neutrals to read and understand.

1. "lifted the the"?
2. "Goodison Park is the home ground" - The home ground of what? And whose home ground?

The home of ground of the team in the subject title.

1. Details of the Everton Athletic naming dispute are very minor for the lead

So, you say, but you like poor English as well.

1. Returned prose to its disjointed paragraph when it was perfectly incorporated
2. Undoing a number of valid formatting fixes.

Why do you seem to be constantly flitting between valid edits and purely disruptive ones? You've never justified your edits besides the oft repeated claim that they are "superior". The reality is that they really aren't superior, they are a world of paragraph holes and spelling errors. I fear that you are here for the joy of disruption. Having the audacity to revert to such plainly error-ridden material, coupled with pompous authoritative edit summaries, leads me to believe this is so. Unless you focus on genuinely improving the article I shall apply for protection, thus rendering the article locked to non-registered users. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

The edits are not valid and poor, so require professionalism.(unsigned IP)

Well, I don't appreciate you removing my comments, nor do I appreciate you describing my English as poor. You are simply trolling. Still, what is a "senior club"? Is it for old people? "They" and "their" (what the hell is "ands"?) are not amateurish: they are the result of a British English variant which leads to the use of a plural to describe certain bodies and organisations (such as this one). Hence – "Everton are this year's League champions" not "Everton is this year's League champion". This is the common usage. Another point: if "Goodison is the home ground" is fine then perhaps we should write the article as "Everton are a Merseyside club. Football is the sport."

I'm done with you now and will not respond to your attempts to rile me up. Feel free to vandalise the page some more so I can get you blocked. It would be much simpler. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:57, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Sillyfolkboy, the version you removed was vastly superior. The English written properly. If you wrote the original you are lacking in English skills - that is clear. Nothing personal, it is just that way. So please when sections are re-written (the content was the same) leave them alone. Your English is embarrassing to the club.

If you have a problem then highlight the specific points that bother you on this page. Do not revert to little more than schoolboy written sections.

The opening section:

Everton Football Club are a professional English football club located in the city of Liverpool. Their ["their" is poor English, should be avoided] home ground is Goodison Park. The club competes in the Premier League and were [were is redundant] a founder member of the world's first football league in 1888. Everton have contested more seasons in the top flight of English football than any other club.

Currently managed by David Moyes, Everton have won the League Championship nine times—the fourth highest of any team. Additionally, they have won the FA Cup five times and the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup once. The club's most recent major trophy was the 1995 FA Cup.

Everton were founded in 1878 and have a notable rivalry with near neighbours Liverpool F.C.. Liverpool FC were formed fourteen years after Everton by a breakaway group of Everton's old chairman and a few players. A dispute with the Everton committee and the chairman who owned the Anfield ground, forced Everton FC to look for another home ground. Everton have been based at Goodison Park since 1892 as a result of the split.

In 2006, it was announced that the club and Knowsley Council were discussing the construction of a new 55,000 seater stadium in Kirkby. The club have a large fanbase and regularly attracts large crowds, averaging over 36,000 (90% of capacity) during the 2005–06 season.[1]

Numerous well-known footballers have had a career at Everton F.C. Since 2000, the club has annually recognised successful former players as "Giants" of the team. Dixie Dean, who played for the team in the 1920s and 1930s, is the most prolific goal-scorer in English football history, and in 1927-28 set the record for league goals in a single season by scoring 60 times.

The above is full of generally poor clunky English. The section needs splitting into logical paragraphs and events sequentially. Info is all over the place - the managers name is mentioned before the date of foundation. Now lets have a go at it properly, with the same content and little added....

Everton Football Club are a professional English football club located at Goodison Park in the city of Liverpool, England. Founded in 1878, one of England's senior clubs being a founder member of the world's first football league in 1888.

The club have a large fanbase and regularly attracts high attendances, averaging over 36,000, 90% of stadium capacity.

Through history Everton have proven to be the most consistent top-flight competitor in English football, having contested more seasons and scored more goals than any other club.

This consistency has cascaded into nine League Championships, the fourth highest of any club, five FA Cups and a UEFA Cup Winners' Cup. The club's most recent major trophy was the 1995 FA Cup.

Numerous well-known footballers played for Everton F.C. Since 2000, the club has annually recognised successful former players as Giants of the team. The most notable is William (Dixie) Dean, the centre forward in the 1920s and 1930s. Dean is the most prolific goal-scorer in English football history, setting an all time record of 60 league goals in a single season in 1927-28.

Everton have a notable rivalry with near neighbours Liverpool F.C.. Liverpool FC were formed in 1892 by a breakaway group of Everton's old president and a few players. A dispute with the Everton committee and the president who owned the Anfield ground where Everton played, forced Everton F.C. to look for another home ground. Everton have been based at Goodison Park since 1892 as a result of the split.

In 2006, it was announced that the club and Knowsley Council were discussing the construction of a new 55,000 seater stadium in Kirkby on the Liverpool city border. Progress has been delayed due to a public inquiry.

The current manager is David Moyes.

As you can see above, the structure is sequential, progressive and easy to read. Who the club is, when founded, where they play, a senior English club, a large English club. Notable achievements. All in order and separated into logical paragraphs. This is going on the main article. (User:Waterspaces)

I've reworked the lead again. Please read WP:Layout and Writing better articles:Paragraphing. I quote:

• "One-sentence paragraphs are unusually emphatic, and should be used sparingly. Articles should rarely, if ever, consist solely of such paragraphs."

I fully agree with this guideline and it is obvious that your attempts to paragraph information by sub-topic are inhibiting the flow of the text. Furthermore, phrases such as "This consistency has cascaded" are highly ambiguous at best and verging on the unintelligible at worst.

I have reordered the sections to group related topics with (1) definition and summary (2) history victories (3) Worked in kit/colours with Dixie Dean/Giants info. (4) A mix of "supporters and rivalries" and stadiums through connecting prose.

I think the main points are now covered concisely, although I have excerpted Moyes from the lead. Although he is currently relevant to the club, he has not defined himself as any more notable than previous successful managers.

Your insults continue to denigrate your contributions Waterspaces. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The new lead is a definite improvement on what we've had there previously. It works in details that we've been inexplicably missing previously (colours for example) and gives a far better account of the club's history (emphasing 1980s for example) than merely listing total trophies won; agree with the Moyes point as well. The prose is to a high standard; not ovely colloquial or prone to puffery.

I do have one slight quibble - the statement describing Dean as "the most prolific goal-scorer in English football history" doesn't seem quite right to me, seemingly implying that he's scored the most goals in history, rather than just most goals in one season; most goals is either Arthur Rowley for all divisions or Jimmy Greaves for top-flight alone. Perhaps that can be slightly reworded. Otherwise, its a very good lead. - Chrism would like to hear from you 20:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't sure of that before (prolific is a little ambiguous when saying someone is "the most.."). In light of the Rowley/Greaves achievements I'd make this change:

From:

• the most notable is Dixie Dean, a centre forward in the 1920s and 1930s. Dean is the most prolific goal-scorer in English football history, setting an all time record of 60 league goals in a single season in 1927–28

To:

• the most notable is Dixie Dean, who scored a record 60 league goals in the 1927–28 season

What do you think? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 20:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Perfect, its accurate and concise while showing why he's important enough to be in the lead. - Chrism would like to hear from you 20:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I think it's quite a logical edit. We can suppose that he was a 1920/30's forward from the number of goals and the year of the record season anyway. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

 Done – Toon^(talk) 21:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Formatting issues?

Is there a reason why Southall is in yellow on the greatest ever team? Can't see a MOS or similar, and it looks odd imo 78.151.177.80 (talk) 18:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I've no idea why he's in yellow. It's just formatted in that way and can be changed back to white. Perhaps it suggests that he is the captain? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Crest, etc section

Whilst the page is locked, I thought the following recent addition could be looked at:

In the very early days players would wear their own badges on their shirts. These could be their county or city association badges. The city of Liverpool's emblem, the Liver Bird was used on club stationary and plaques and many players would have a Liver Bird in their Liverpool Association badges. There has been a move to have the Liver Bird on the shirts of Everton FC, as Everton are the senior of the club's in Liverpool and the emblem is not new to the club. Wearing the city emblem would assert Everton FC's connection with the City of Liverpool. This prompted Liverpool FC, who use the emblem on their shirts, to attempt to patent the city emblem, which met with city council opposition. Liverpool FC dropped the absurd move.

There's obviously a load of POV stuff in here, the English is poor and it's completed unreferenced. But, is there any usable evidence anywhere to back any of this up? LFC's recent attempts to copyright the Liver Bird should be easy but I don't know about the rest. It's news to me. Dancarney (talk) 22:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

All I'm picking up is gossip/forums for the Everton idea of putting it on the shirt. Apparently it was to prevent counterfeit Liverpool merchandise being sold: BBC Telegraph. Also, the person who wrote it obviously doesn't know the difference between a patent and a trademark. I would hardly call Liverpool's attempt to trademark only its own specific version of the Liver Bird "absurd". Either way, it's entirely irrelevant to Everton.

However, the fact that the Liver bird was on Everton's first league title medals maybe be worth a mention in the History of... article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 22:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

---

Someone change the opening section for well written one. Who writes this childish garbage? Here is is...

Everton Football Club are an English professional football club from the city of Liverpool, England. [from Liverpool, they are IN Liverpool] Having competed in the top division for a record 107 seasons, [do not mention years it will change in a year] they [do not mention "they" very amateurish and bad English] have played more top-flight league games [the word is matches not games] than any other English team and [avoid "and's", very amateurish] have won the League Championship nine times—the fourth highest of any team.[1] The club competes in the Premier League, being ever-present since the league was founded in 1992.

Formed in 1878, Everton were founder members of The Football League in 1888 and [avoid "and's", very amateurish] won their first [avoid "their", very amateurish] league championship three years later. [date of formation and winning not connected, should be in separate paras] Following five league titles and two FA Cups, Everton experienced a lull in the post-war period until a revival in the 1960s, winning two league championships and an FA Cup. The mid-1980s represented their [avoid "their", very amateurish] most recent period of success, with two league victories, an FA Cup, and the 1985 European Cup Winners' Cup—their first continental trophy. The club's most recent major trophy was the 1995 FA Cup.

The club's home colours have traditionally been blue and white, [Everton have played in many colours] and [avoid "and's", very amateurish] numerous well-known footballers have donned the Everton shirt: the most notable is Dixie Dean, [use correct name, William Dean - he hated Dixie] who scored a record 60 league goals in the 1927–28 season. Since 2000, the club has annually recognised successful former players, nominating an "Everton Giant" at the beginning of each season.

The club have a large fanbase and regularly attracts high attendances, averaging over 36,000, 90% of stadium capacity.[2] Everton have a notable rivalry with neighbours Liverpool F.C. and matches between the two sides are known as the Merseyside Derby. Liverpool F.C. were formed in 1892 by a breakaway group consisting of Everton's former president and several players. The dispute also resulted in Everton leaving Anfield, their original home ground. [Anfield was not Everton's original ground] They [avoid "they", very amateurish] have been [avoid "have been", very amateurish] based at their current home ground, Goodison Park, since 1892. Plans to move to a new 55,000 seater stadium in Kirkby on the Liverpool city border have been delayed due to a public inquiry. [the new stadium is new topic and requires a new pargraph] Whoever wrote this locked the editing of the page. They obvious have high opinion of their own English and ability to convey information via the English language. The opening section is appalling.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Waterspaces (talk • contribs) 23:04, Apr 19, 2009 (UTC)

Firstly Sillyfolkboy didn't lock the page, it was locked by Toon05 (who hasn't been involved in the dispute), so before you start making false implications about others, you might want to try assuming some good faith.

Secondly, the use of 'their', 'they' etc. is perfectly legitimate in British English when referring to football clubs and other such organisations as they're treated as plural nouns (see WP:ENGVAR), and it looks a lot better than simply repeating 'Everton are', 'Everton have' over and over again. The reader can see from the title which team the article is about - they don't need to be reminded every sentence. And how is the word 'and' amateurish? (pun fully intended)

With regards to Dean, William (Dixie) Dean would probably be the best alternative here - we do try and use common names as much as possible, and whether Dean liked it or not, he's known invariably as Dixie. The reference to the clubs colours say that they 'traditionally' have - given that the club's home colours have been blue and white continuously since 1901, I think its a legitimate statement, and previous kit styles are mentioned in the appropriate section - a lead section about Everton, a team often referred to as the Blues, that doesn't state this rather important observation, isn't a very good lead.

I don't really want to reduce this down to a conflict of personalities, but IMO your conduct throughout this entire dispute has been rather rude, impugning other people's linguistic comprehension and replacing their edits with quite often badly mangled alternatives (I also don't want to make this into a tit-for-tat insult fest, but if you're going to insult people's writing abilities, it would help if your own edits were in slightly more coherent and gramatically correct English), demanding that people refrain from editing what's meant to be a collaborative encyclopedia (please try looking up WP:OWN for a brief explanation of why your opinion is not necessarily the be all and end all in this discussion), and dismissing other people's reasoned contributions as 'amateurish' at the drop of a hat. Others have consistently assumed good faith, and attempted to work to create a better article. - Chrism would like to hear from you

I find the idea that the word "and" is amateurish quite risible. In fact I find it positively hilarious. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Not as hilarious as using appalling English whilst criticising that of others so vociferously - "They obvious have high opinion of their own English...". Amazing. Dancarney (talk) 06:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

One important point is raised, though. Anfield was not Everton's original ground, so the sentence should read "...former ground..." Dancarney (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe "original stadium" would do the trick? Or just simply removing "their original home ground"?... Actually I think a rephrase to "As a result, Everton left their home ground, Anfield, in 1892 and they have been based at Goodison Park ever since." (or similar) might be the best option. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 10:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding those reverted edits Waterspaces: Writing is often subjective but the idea that "and" should used sparingly is utter tosh. You will find no traction with this idea with anyone. I suggest you speak to everyone you meet this week and tell them your thoughts on this matter. Perhaps you may learn something from their responses.

Do not edit others comments on the talk page. It is explicitly discouraged for obvious reasons. Your "school boy" and "dork" jibes are wearing thin. I am a man of much patience but I will not suffer fools gladly. You have pushed this too far and now I too have resorted to personal attacks. However, I am confident that when others review your edits they will reach a similar conclusion. Sadly, I have really tried to work with you on these article issues. The only thing I have had in return from you are insults, illogical arguments, and repeated statements about your "superiority". I'm tired and I wish you'd start treating others with respect. I sincerely hope you are not this impolite in your day-to-day life, unless I pity those that meet you. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Minor honours error

{{editprotected}} In the Honours section, the 4th item in the FA Cup runners-up list is incorrectly shown as 1986, not 1968 as its (correctly) linked to, so if an admin could change it that'd be ace. Also, as finals of other competitions have been linked to, could the European Cup Winner's Cup win be piped to 1985 European Cup Winners' Cup Final - cheers. - Chrism would like to hear from you 23:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

 Done – Toon^(talk) 23:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Sorry to be a pain, but as you seem to be doing all these little fixes, please could you also remove the bracketed numbers showing how many times they've won, been runners-up etc. next to the last 4 honours lists, just to make them consistent with the rest. Cheers. - Chrism would like to hear from you 23:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

 Done Heh, don't worry about it. User:CorenSearchBot is down, so I have no copyright issues to zap anyway. – Toon^(talk) 23:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Lead section

I think the paragraph about Goodison Park, Merseyside Derby, etc. should come before the one concerning Bill Dean, club colours, etc. Dancarney (talk) 12:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the historical information in the two larger paragraphs makes them better placed if together. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem with that, I'll add the editprot tag. - Chrism would like to hear from you 14:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} As above request by Dancarney

 Done. Cheers, Amalthea 15:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

By the by, the lead seems to have conflicting opinions whether "Everton Football Club" is singular or plural:

• Everton Football Club are ...
• The club competes ...
• The club have ...
• the club has ...

Amalthea 16:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That's an issue with British English; Football clubs and similar entities can be singular and plural interchangably. Odd, yes. – Toon^(talk) 16:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Huh. Interchangably? I'd think that it should be consistent and use either the one or the other, but maybe just because this looks so wrong to me. :)
Cheers, Amalthea 17:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it comes up at the majority of FA noms for football-related articles, I imagine it looks wierd to those not familiar with it! – Toon^(talk) 17:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

FAC SEMIS

Does the honours for FA cup semis only include the beaten ones? I think this gives an impression of less semis, atleast if you put in the winning semi finals, you can see above it (finals) what semi final progressed to a final. It seems false to only record the 'loosing' semi finals, after all there are 24 only Arsenal and Man Utd have played in more. Babydoll9799 (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I find the list of semi-finals Everton has lost rather tedious. I think they should be removed. Does anyone concur? Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 00:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Semi-finals should only really be included if it's the furthest a club's ever reached in a competition. Otherwise we should only include times as winners or runners-up. Dancarney (talk) 08:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Famous Evertonians

I tried to beef up this section (in supporters and rivalries) but someone took offence and removed the sub heading. If that is what others decide, so be it. I will add that the section needs more structuring; and perhaps moved lower down as it is not really that significant - but it is relevent enough, it is nice to know what famous people are Evertonians, and there are many more. I am happy to add to the 'list' though. Babydoll9799 (talk) 09:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I really don't think that a list of 'famous' supporters is relevant or encyclopaedic. Considering the club's large fanbase there could be over a hundred Everton fans with Wikipedia articles. I'd rather not have any list at all. Dancarney (talk) 09:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

That is your opinion; the list was already there - I have seen fit to add to it. If others decide the list should not be there, then it should be removed. It is there and personally, I am in favour of it - but I think it is not very significant that is all. Something that could be added lower down the pageBabydoll9799 (talk) 09:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

If it's included it doesn't warrant its own section. Keep within the supporters section.Dancarney (talk) 10:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but the Supporters and Rivalries section needs to be modified as (in my opinion) it is all over the place Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

It could do with a bit of sorting out, but I don't think it's all over the place. It's quite reasonably laid out as a paragraph on who Evertonians are, one on songs, one on rivalry and the last of 'famous' fans. It fairly concise, too. Dancarney (talk) 11:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that a massive list of famous fans is particularly needed. Firstly, there's the problem of sourcing - the toffeeweb source given is by its own admission fairly tenuous in many of its claims. Secondly, there's the issue of notability. I'd be ok with naming one or two where it is a genuinely notable and important fact about a given person that they're an Evertonian. Liz McLarnon for example is very open about it and modelled the home kit about 5 years ago, so that's easily sourceable and an important part of her public persona in much the same way that Mick Hucknall's supporting United is for him. That Bill Kenwright is rumoured to have said that Dame Judi is a Blue, less so. If she is (and we have no proof), its not exactly something she's known for. - Chrism would like to hear from you 12:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

That's good point about that Toffeweb page. Most of the site is very useful, but they admit that their Famous Fans section is not a reliable source. So, I don't think that list can be used. Having Sylvester Stallone in there is a massive joke, too. Dancarney (talk) 12:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

As an Evertonian, I think it is appropriate to have some reference to "famous" Evertonians, why not? I haven't checked but do Liverpool FC have such a list? The questions that need to be asked are (in my opinion) whether such a list should be where it is, and deciding who really are Everton fans and who is just made up. I would question Sylvester Stallone and Judi Dench, for example. I also agree regarding notability - and even though I have added to the list, most of them are from the city anyway. Babydoll9799 (talk) 12:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I had a quick check on some of the most popular teams' pages. Man United, Man City, Liverpool, Villa, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal don't have such details, Newcastle do. Dancarney (talk) 12:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Off the top of my head having a look at that list, McLarnon, John Parrott, Derek Hatton, Amanda Holden and Claire Sweeney are all pretty open about it. We should have no problem sourcing them. Stallone was paraded at Goodison a few seasons ago and was going on about how he's now a massive Everton fan (something I'd personally doubt, but all we have to go on are the sources and what he's said). That can easily stay in. There's already the reference about Paul McCartney's 'admission' so that can stay. There's even some I can think of that aren't there, Norman Wisdom for one. For the others though we really should start finding some reliable sources or removing them.

I have no objection to a small mention of a few names of people who are particularly noted as evertonians, but I agree thats its not exactly a massive issue. - Chrism would like to hear from you 12:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I have added Norman Wisdom. I have no idea who Alan Khan is?? Perhaps in South Africa he is well known is he significant to Evertonians? I don't think so.

A footnote, apart from Judi Dench, all of the others are quite well known most personalities, most are local, and they are all verifiable Evertonians, for example Ed Stewart or Jimmy Mulville - featured by the club in the programme or Evertonian (one of them) around the 1995 Cup Final, as were many others. Babydoll9799 (talk) 09:39, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Well done Chrism, for work on this section. Will need Freddie Starr adding, quite a well known Evertonian. As also Gordon Honeycombe (involved in "The Golden Vision" play (Alex Young). Babydoll9799 (talk) 16:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I looked for confirmation on Honeycombe, but was unable to find anything personally linking him to support of the club. Only connection between the two was obviously him being the scriptwriter for the Golden Vision, which I don't think is enough to reliably show him as a fan of the club specifically - Chrism would like to hear from you 11:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Norman Wisdom may have indicated some affection for Everton but he is a Brighton & Hove Albion supporter, here on Wikipedia his entry states : "Wisdom is a lifelong supporter and a former board member of football team Brighton and Hove Albion F.C." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.235.139 (talk) 01:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I fear this section may quickly become unsustainable, without adding any real quality content. Let's keep it on the respective people's biographies and focus on the club here. No fan is more important than any other in this respect. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 05:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I'd rather it was absent from the article. Dancarney (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Nickname

A dubious claim is made that the nickname may relate to irish and the BBC wiki "h2g2" is referenced, this is not a reliable source. Stutley (talk) 14:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

James Wallace nationality

There's a bit of dispute over James Wallace's footballing nationality. He has played for the Republic of Ireland U16s team, [4] but has since been on the bench for England U19s.[5] Presumably this means he has relinquished eligibility for Ireland, does this seem correct? Dancarney (talk) 10:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Ahh, sorry I was unaware that he was now actually being selected for England (did not realise he was actually that good!) Personally I think for the time being he should be noted as Irish still as it's his only international cap (U16's), but once he actaually plays for England (at what ever level may be) he should be then reverted back to English. Agree? Xenomorph1984 (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. I was hoping there may be a precedent somewhere. Dancarney (talk) 11:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Obviously he is English if Ireland can not pick him any more but so far he has only been capped by Ireland so he should still be listed as so. Tony Cascorino is listed as an Irish player even though he revealed he was not actually eligble. I'm sure if he keeps progressing and is capped by England then it will eventually sort it self out. Xenomorph1984 (talk) 11:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Cascarino was eligible for Ireland.[6] Dancarney (talk) 13:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Anton Peterlin

Numerous editors have been adding Anton Peterlin to the first team squad. Whilst it is correct that he has signed for Everton, and played in a pre-season friendly, I don't believe that he is a First-team squad member, as he is not listed as such on the club's website.[7] Any opinions on this? Dancarney (talk) 09:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd expect the club's website to be a reliable source; anything else must be original research and therefore impermissible. Rodhullandemu 13:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Shkodran is not listed on the website either, why does nobody suggest removing him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.206.251.162 (talk) 15:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Shkodran Mustafi is listed on the first team squad page cited as the source.http://www.evertonfc.com/match/everton-squad.html He's above Yobo, and to the left of Hibbert. Dancarney (talk) 15:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Not sure how I missed that. 132.206.251.162 (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Peterlin and Cody Arnoux are now included in the first-team squad on the club website. Dancarney (talk) 08:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

2009–10 away kit

I'm not very good at editing kits, but the striping on the black & pink kit in the infobox needs some help. Here a link to a promotional photo released by the club. The stripes should not be so even – the pink stripes ought to be much thinner – There are also thin stripes on the collar, socks, end of the sleeve, and the outside of the leg. Does anyone know how to work on that? JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I've already put in a request at the football kit template talk page here. Dancarney (talk) 15:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

stupid vandals

In the article it says theyre an amateur football club, in the box to its right it says the compete in Championship but it also says 2008-2009:5th My call to all vandals: dont vandalize if you dont have brains, ok?

Pictures

Hey everyone. Just a reminder for anyone out there may be going to an Everton match sometime: take pictures. We could use photos of players in their kits on gameday, which could be posted to this article, the 2009–10 season article, or the player's article. Even a more panoramic shot inside Goodison could be useful. Happy editing. JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 11:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

supporter page

I recently noticed Arsenal has a separate page for supporters. I'm tempted to do this for Everton and reduce the amount on the main page. Will include articles on season ticket numbers, demographics etc and sort out the ever increasing famous fans. Any objections? Xenomorph1984 (talk) 18:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Club Colours

Before Everton adopted Royal Blue as their colours Liverpool's colours were Royal Blue and White quarters (like Bristol Rovers). If a source for this could be found it would make an interesting addition. 15:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)