Talk:Kastoria

Kostur 1

Kostur, "the other name of the town" (and not the prefecture), is not just Bulgarian as 207.96.224.163 claims in his edit. It's equally used by the Bulgarians, the Macedonian Slavs, and I guess it's probably used by other Slavic people as well. Feel free to edit the article and include any information about the name Kostur, as long as it doesn't contradict with the above. Etz Haim 10:00, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Kostur 2

Is there a reason for the south slavic name to be prominently featured in this article, if not to establish that there is a significant south slavic minority there? (which is not true).--Avg 15:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Historically, there has been a large Slavic-speaking population in Kastoria and the region around it. In general, in WP, we try to be inclusive rather than exclusive about things like this. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Names issues for discussion. In many cases, there is a full section of the article about the name (e.g. Bitola or Istanbul), but when there is not, it makes sense to put it in the header. --Macrakis 16:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to disagree. There has never been a large Slavic population in Kastoria, just a small minority, who recently has become very vocal. There is no special reason whatsoever to refer to a Greek city with its non-Greek name. So you want to compare it with Istanbul. Has Kastoria ever been under Slavic rule? Was the capital of some Slavic empire? No. And still, the name Constantinople is not mentioned in the first line of the article. And who would even IMAGINE to write it with Greek letters! Turkish people would be offended and perhaps rightly so. You refer to Bitola. Same here. Bitola was a Byzantine/Ottoman city officially named Monastiri, it's perfectly normal for this name to be mentioned there. But Kustur, why? When this city was officially named Kustur and by whom? --Avg 02:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

"In 1892 the Kostur (Kastoria) parish school council adopted the proposal of a group of teachers 'to eliminate both Bulgarian and Greek and introduce Macedonian as the language of instruction in the town school'.... However, the Greek bishop and the Turkish governor of the city prevented this from taking place." (Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Princeton University Press, 1995. ISBN 0691043566, p. 62) So apparently in 1892, both Bulgarian and Greek were being taught in the Kastoria schools, and the parish council was predominantly Slavic-speaking. --Macrakis 13:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It's nice that you have a citation, but unless I completely misunderstood what the passage says, the group of teachers proposed to introduce "Macedonian" as the language of instruction, this means that it was never actually taught in any school. Moreover, since the proposal was never implemented, it means that never "Macedonian" was an official language there, unlike Greek for Bitola and Istanbul. What it can be inferred is that at some point in history, there has been a larger South Slavic minority than nowadays, which still though was not a majority, since it could not influence administrative decisions. Again, unlike Bitola and Istanbul. I'd also like to contrast this case with Xanthi or Komotini. There is a large and established Muslim and Turkish speaking minority there, hence it is a logical step to have a reference to their Turkish names. Nobody objects to that. But Kastoria's case (as almost all FYROMian claims) is an artificial issue.--Avg 14:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Not only did the teachers propose it, but the parish school council passed this proposal. The previous state of affairs was apparently that both Greek and Bulgarian were being taught -- which already tells us that there was a substantial South Slavic-speaking community. The new proposal was that only Macedonian be taught, so the Slavic-speaking population must have been very strong in the parish school council to eliminate Greek! As for "influencing administrative issues", the passage does address that. The Ottoman empire was not any sort of democracy!

As for 'official' languages, I don't see the relevance. Of course Greek was the administrative language of the Byzantine empire, and Ottoman Turkish was the administrative language of the Ottoman Empire, but that is not what we are discussing here. Greek, Albanian, Slavic, etc. names continued to be used throughout the region, and are worth documenting. Some of the regional languages, such as Ladino in Thessaloniki and Vlach throughout the region, have never been the official languages of any government entity, yet again are worth documenting.

The situation in Xanthi and Komotini has to do, as I'm sure you know, with the population exchange of 1923. Before 1923, there were Turkish-speakers in many more areas. And in any case, the Ottoman Turkish names in all of the Ottoman domains in Europe are worth mentioning for historical reasons. --Macrakis 14:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Kastoriá → Kastoria – For reasons of consistency - no (or very few) other articles on Greek places use the accents in the titles. --Telex 00:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support --Telex 00:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support, as per nom. --Aldux 09:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support, latin-alphabet signs in the city of Katsoria do not use an accent. --   Avg    09:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support, as per nomination --Panairjdde 14:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support, Miskin 15:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Moved. —Nightstallion (?) 14:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Skeleton?

Don't know about Macedonian, but kostur means 'perch' (genus of fish) in Bulgarian. It might have a connection to 'skeleton', though, because the root is kost (bone). Anyway, we'd need a source for that one. Todor→Bozhinov 09:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

MatriX added it [1]. I don't know anything about it, although according to this republican dictionary [2] "kostur" can mean skeleton. It's probably one of those Serbian words implanted into the original lexicon in order to create the illusion of a seperate language (it is, check srwiki and the edits Serbs have made to the article [3]). --Tēlex 10:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The dictionary says it means a 'skeleton' of a ship or umbrella (most likely not the right word in English), so it wouldn't be a literal translation after all :) I believe we should mention the kost etymology as common and leave the translation out (or include both possible translations). Todor→Bozhinov 13:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't understand a word of that. Do whatever you think is best - you're not likely to meed much opposition from people like me who haven't a clue what's going on. --Tēlex 13:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, basically, the word seems to have different meanings in Bulgarian and Macedonian. And while it does mean 'skeleton' in Macedonian, it's not the skeleton of a human (most common meaning), but the 'skeleton' of a ship or an umbrella. No matter the meaning, the word comes from kost (bone), so my suggestion is to mention that instead of any translations. Don't bother trying to understand it, it's not a major thing, I'll fix it :) Todor→Bozhinov 14:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Related Links

• Καστοριά, Kastoria
• Καστοριά, Kastoria
• Καστοριά, Kastoria
• Καστοριά, Kastoria
• Καστοριά, Kastoria

Jewish section additions

I had a talk in the talkpage of the new user who posted that information, and am copying it here for others to comment:

Titled: Thanks...

...for your additions in Kastoria in the Jewish community section. I would appreciate if you could also cite the source for these events, especially given that most of them may create quite bit of controversy. Those are terrible facts you included there, and they should of course be mentioned provided they are sourced by reliable sources. I found especially appalling the fact that certain compatriots of mine confiscated Jewish properties unilaterally, and since I consider that highlighting one's past mistakes can only lead to improvement, I would be most grateful if you could include the sources. NikoSilver 12:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your guidance to this wiki-newbie I think I did this incorrectly the first time and emailed you instead of adding to this talk page... here's what I'd sent you-

Please find the following references regarding the requested citations.

1) "In 1943 the Jewish population in Kastoria numbered over 980"

2) "By the end of the war in 1945, 38 of the original population survived -the vast majority of the community killed in concentration camps"

Besides the spoken word during interviews I've conducted with many of the survivors, there is a monument in the Saint Athanasios area of Kastoria that details these facts and their numbers (the monument rounds the numbers expressing 1000 in the community and only 35 surviving, but my research showed slightly different results).

I posted photos of the monument for you at: http://longbeachreunion.com/images/Kastoria_1.jpg http://longbeachreunion.com/images/Memorial.jpg

This source speaks for itself, but unfortunately you need to back it up further because in extreme cases people have argued such monuments were exaggerated. NikoSilver 20:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

3) "The survivors who returned to Kastoria found their homes occupied by villagers who claimed the properties as their own."

Although I know this to be a fact verified by many of the surviving Kastoriali Jews I don't have a published reference for it yet -but will work on it & get back to you. Please note that, unfortunately, it is absolutely true (it was actually a common event to many surviving Jews all over Europe).

Sorry, but WP policies will not allow that without solid sources. We need to find them. NikoSilver 20:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

4) "Those remaining men who struggled to stay in their hometown were subsequently drafted and served in the Greek army to fight the communists during the Greek civil war".

I suppose I'll have to work on getting a published reference for this one also- Again, forgive me if my freshman status to Wikipedia is causing me to ask stupid questions... but many of these facts are likely unpublished yet can be verified through photos and interview testimony. It would be a shame to omit such points when they are absolutely true. How do I get a reference for such a point?

Revision: Ok, I see the laws about No Original Research.... I suppose that makes sense- Ok, I'm learning. Gotta get some published stuff to you-

One site I'm looking through is: http://www.sephardicstudies.org/

I suppose I've got homework to do-

This point serves no purpose unless there was some discrimination in the selection of Jews for the draft. These are serious allegations, and, again, we need sources. NikoSilver 20:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

5) "By 1950, most of the scattered remnants of the Jewish community eventually decided to leave Greece entirely". I don't believe this point is likely to be challenged, but if you require I will attempt to find references for it.

Not so important, and can explain the one family left. NikoSilver 20:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

6) "As of June, 2007 one Jewish family remains in Kastoria."

This is common knowledge among any of the residents in Kastoria. This fact is definitely not likely to be challenged by anyone with any bit of knowledge of the city. However, in consideration and privacy to the one Jewish family that remains in Kastoria- perhaps the line should just be deleted anyway.

No problem with that either. NikoSilver 20:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

If possible, I would appreciate a reply to let me know if I'm going about this properly or not. Thanks again-

Four tildes eh? Let's see here...

LMRusso 15:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I will not be able to comment for a few days due to work, but I'll definitely come back to see how the discussion evolved. Please don't WP:BITE in the meantime! NikoSilver 16:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments indented above. NikoSilver 20:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I buggered up the footnoting of the content I added, to meet the request for citations. The process boggles. The sandbox was no help. This is painful, but at least the content is now cited, however artlessly. Don'tDoWindows (talk) 03:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Discussion about lake's name

I'm from Kastoria and I assure you that the lake's name is Orestida and NOT Orestiada. Is a mistake that I noticed also in many internet sites that are referring to Kastoria. So, the name Orestiada often is been confusing with the city of Orestiada in Evros, but the name Orestida is originated to the main ancient area of Kastoria and in particular the city of Argos Orestiko. Greek speaking user "google" the word "Orestida", there are some links that clear up my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Didgerman (talk • contribs) 11:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The wider geographic area is identified with the are of ancient Orestida, where the Orestes -"Macednoi", as Hirodotus calls them- lived. In Pentavriso, in the summer of 1999, came to light a very important sculpture ever found in Kastoria. It is the most ancient tomb anaglyph of the Upper Macedonia and one of the best classical works ever discovered in the entire Macedonia. This part of the tomb monument represents the calm and sad face of a woman who lived and died here 24 centuries ago (one generation before Philippos 2nd). At that time, Orestida was an independent kingdom that already participated actively in the political things of Greece.

This work of art, though, proves that Orestida was actively participating in civilisation and aesthetics of the central Greece, as its style reveals that of Vioitia, Attica in the post- Parthenon era (40013C).

Unsourced POV

I have removed the unsourced paragraph added by the anonymous IP user. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 04:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Kostur=Skeleton

Re this, why would anyone name a town after a skeleton? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would anyone name a town after a beaver? BalkanFever 12:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Fur is serious business in Kastoria even today. Aramgar (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That's right. And besides, a beaver is way more attractive than a skeleton. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

non-notable ethnics

In a bid to make Greek Macedonia appear less Greek and more "Macedonian", a well-known hardcore nationalist is digging up every trivial figure from FYROM that happened to be born in Greek Macedonia and inserting them in the respective article of the Greek city they were born in or near. This becomes obvious when the editor has the gall to suggest that they deserve to be mentioned because of their ethnicity, for example here [4]. This is tantamount to admitting to POV-pushing, brazenly and openly (and I might add, stupidly). In this article, it appears to be a minor politico named Jagnula Kunovska who was born in a village near Kastoria but moved to FYROM pretty soon afterward. She is not notable, since she is unheard of outside of her own country (and ethnic diasporas do NOT count), and there are no neutral, secondary sources in English attesting to her notability. Furthermore, she is not really from Kastoria, since she was merely born there, but grew up in Yugoslavia, which is what really counts. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you able to prove that she is not notable. She is the leader of a former political party, a respected juror and currently a member of the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia. She is just another person on the list, i can hardly see why you cannot just leave it. Come on, you have gone overboard in your attempt to prove that she isnt notable. There was recently a spat about a paralel issue on this page which was resolved by both me and user Kekrops. It was decided to leave the peoples name on the list, if anything it is more informative. I really cannot see what you are trying to prove. PMK1 (talk) 12:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the burden of proof is on you, not me. You want to claim this person is notable, then YOU have to prove it, using reliable, secondary, English language sources. So far you have not done so. The sources you use in the article you created are a bunch of websites, which are neither reliable nor in English. "Respected juror" means nothing to me, nor the fact that she founded a tiny, former political party. WP:POLITICIAN is quite explicit when it comes to notable politicians:

• People who have held international, national or first-level sub-national political office, including members of a legislature and judges.
• Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage. Generally speaking, mayors are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city.
• Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject."

This person meets none of these criteria. She has no major achievements, never held office, and is unheard of outside her own country. In fact she seems more like a failed politician than a successful one. What exactly are you trying to accomplish by digging up every failed politician you can find? Regarding the name, since Slavs were never a signficant presence in Kastoria, the slavic name does not belong in the lead, but rather in the name section, so I'm going to ask to leave it there. And my edits are not vandalism, but a rather obvious content dispute. You fight dirty, shame on you. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

P.S. And rest assured an AfD is coming, just as soon as I can find the time to do it.

First issue; She is a member of the ruling party (VMRO-DPMNE) in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia.[5],in english. A translated version of her profile. "Member of VMRO-DPMNE. Born 1943 in Kastoria, Greece. Macedonian. Master of jurisprudence and jurist/magistrate. Speaks french and greek. She lives in Skopje." She was elected as a member of NSDP and then left them and joined VMRO-DPMNE, which at the time was notable and she gained significant news coverage for that, which greatly discredited the NSDP. She clearly fits the criteria of "People who have held international, national or first-level sub-national political office, including members of a legislature and judges.", being both a member of a National Political Office (the Sobranie) and a "members of a legislature and judges" (magistrate and jurist). Since when did something like this become a fight?, that is way to far overboard. PMK1 (talk) 05:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

All of this edit warring, of which neither of you are innocent, could be ended with an WP:AFD on Ms. Kunovska. I have no preference either way. Incidentally, if the article includes a names section, the Macedonian version ought to go there. Regards, Aramgar (talk) 06:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

If you mean the name of the city, the Macedonian Slavic version is already cited. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 07:16, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes. The Macedonian vesion (i.e. "The Macedonian Slavic name of the city is Kostur (Cyrillic: Костур)") belongs at Kastoria#Name; not in the lead, as some would have it. As for Ms. Kunovska, let her notability be measured by the AFD process. Aramgar (talk) 07:26, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Slavs have never been a significant presence in Kastoria

"Slavs were never a significant presence in Kastoria"'!?!?.

• Kaza of Kastoria, Monastir Province, Ottoman Empire. Vasil Kanchov, 1900, Macedonia Ethnography and Statistics, [6].

- City of Kastoria, 3000 greeks, 1600 turks, 750 jews, 300 bulgarians, 300 arnauts, 240 romani's.

- Kaza of Kastoria, 46,783 bulgarian christians, 4340 bulgarian christians, 3925 - turks, 9415 - greek christians, 175 greek muslims, 910 arnaut christians, 4280 - aromanians, 750 - jews, 1010 - romani. Slavic people comprise 51,123 or 68% of the total population of the Kastoria Kaza. Not a very high figure.

• Ethnographie des Vilayets d'Adrianople, de Monastir et de Salonique, 1873, french study

- Kastoria (city), 2,000 mulsims, 650 bulgarians, 700 greeks, 750 jews.

• La Macédoine et sa Population Chrétienne, 1905, french study

- Kastoria (city) - 400 bulgarian patriachists, 4000 greek patriachiasts, 72 aromanians.

• The largest part of the Ohrana movement was based in the Kastoria region.
• 12 partisan attachments of the Slavic-Macedonian National Liberation front were formed in the Kastoria region.""Les Archives de la Macedonine, Fond: Aegean Macedonia in NLW" - (Field report of Mihail Keramidzhiev to the Main Command of NOF), 8 July 1945 "
• regional comitee of SNOF formed in Kastoria due to the large slav Macedonian population there. PMK1 (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

"Bulgarian(s)". Perhaps "Bulgarian: Костур, Kostur" would be more appropriate. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 07:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

If only. PMK1 (talk) 10:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see "Macedonians" anywhere. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:42, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Castoria (titular see) - Medevial History of Kastoria

There is an wiki article about the historic catholic titular see in Castoria. Perhaps we should add this name also in a section of historic names of the city and add this link above as a see also: [[7]] or to add this as See Also section. We should propably add more things in the history section of the article,the occupation of Franks and the Kingdom of Thessalonica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagrand (talk)

Ottoman's time

Why were the references about the bulgarian language in the Kastoria region removed?

These are a legitimate sources from the consuls of France (François Charles Pouqueville) and Austro-Hungary (Peter Occuli). Two of the biggest empires/states of that time. Also the Leonard's Heft "World's Chronic" is well respected.

Should I remind you that this is a section for the history of the city? The modern politics should not be involved.

Please provide with an appropriate explanation why this was removed or it shall be added again. If you have doubts about the conclusion to which this facts lead, please explain as well.

Thank you and in the same time I await your timely answer.