Talk:List of Jews in sports

Prof. Ellen Muller-Preis - not Jewish

(recently deceased) Most dont know this Olympic Gold-medal winner fencer anyway, but she is my grandmother and just passed away at 95. Please, I know she wass NOT Jewish, but Protestant as she is my grandmother. while i am Jewish from my MOM, my grandmother was not and in fact her husband was an officer in the Austro-German Army during WWII, so that proves that she wasnt because he would not have been allowed to be an officer. Now that she has passed away, please keep her information true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.166.134.3 (talk) 17:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Merger

List of Jews in sports and List of Jewish American athletes seem to have substantial overlap. I suggest that the latter article be merged into this one. -Will Beback 23:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. the List of Jewish American athletes has also been a surprising vandalism target and there appear to be few people watching it. Merging it into a larger page can only help. --Bachrach44 17:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
• Good thinking
• Agree. Several other lists of Jews need to be merged. "Jewish American actors" with "List of Jewish actors and actresses", for example. JackO'Lantern 20:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity lists discussion

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The Undertaker

Whoever put Undertaker on this list should post some viable proofs to it, as this is the first time I have ever heard of him being Jewish. DuDe 14:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

He isn't Jewish. I'll remove him. Mad Jack 15:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems that Brian Pillman and Glen Jacobs were removed as well, but ObsessedWithWrestling lists them as being Jewish, and they appear to be pretty anal about their information (http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/jewish.html). Now, I'm not much of an expert on the matter, but maybe they should be put back on the list?

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Someone incerted * Tarek Ali tunisian club international ( I keep original spelling) Cannot find any second reference about him on Internet. And Ali is a Muslim name. E. W.July 3, 2006

List of Jews in sport shall be revised. Too many individuals without any worthy achievements in the list only because their Israeli or Jews. They can find place in stubs about sports in Israel. I offer very clear criteria. E. W. July 3, 2006

Rex Grossman - not Jewish

Despite the name... from Jews in Sports October 29, 2000, "Though we generally do not offer information on non-Jewish athletes, the high number of emails we have received regarding Florida QB Rex Grossman has prompted us to let our readers know that he is not Jewish." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NjtoTX (talk • contribs) 01:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

Evgeni Malkin

I've removed Evgeni Malkin from this list (again). WP:RS is a non-negotiable policy, and unless the people who continue to re-add him to the list (and make the claim that he's Jewish on his own page) provide an actual source for this claim, I'll continue to remove it. Geoffrey Spear 19:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Malkin is definitely not Jewish, and neither are other Russians on the list, such as Davydov, Myshkin, Zimin and Zinger (who is and ethnic German). Tighina (talk) 14:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You might want to check this link and see if it is correct:

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/17344/edition_id/343/format/html/displaystory.html

and this: http://www.jewishsports.net/medalists.htm as the author appears to be unsure of all the names. Sposer (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Deleting Categories of Jewish Athletes

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion#Category:Jewish_fencers some people are suggesting that Jewish athletes, beginning with Jewish Fencers, should be deleted. I do not think that is the correct approach, or consistent with wiki policy, and thought that others might want to weigh in on the discussion. --Epeefleche 23:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

N.B.--it withstood the deletion attempt. Epeefleche 02:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

David Beckham is not Jewish, he is a quarter Jewish

Beckham said so himself: [1] "..I'm a quarter Jewish..." He shouldn't be written as Jewish just because he had a Jewish ancestor (which was even his mother's father not mother's mother). He may participate in Kaballah but so does Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher and they are not said to be Jewish like Beckham. I saw on List of British Jews that Beckham has a reference from this webpage: [2] but views like this shouldn't be taken as the only truth. After all, there are lots of articls that make such conclusions in sentence form: http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D476.htm Muhammed Ali is Irish? http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=3452&date=20060403 George W. Bush is Swedish?

You can find a lot of stuff on the internet, and from good looking places, this doesn't make them the ultimate truth. Wikipedia has a mechanism that helps deal with this. We shouldn't report anything that isn't well-established as if it was well-established. It is ok to mention that Beckham likes some aspects of Jewish culture and participates in them on his article, but so do a lot of people, and just because Beckham had a Jewish grandparent doesn't make him any more Jewish in totality than others.

Query whether he isn't Jewish per Reform Judaism/patrilineal descent.

Also, the percentage that one is Jewish is not how Jews determine whether someone is Jewish. And as far as non-Jewish views on the issue are concerned, I believe that the Nazis, for instance, would have been quite satisfied with his 25% as qualifying him for the crematoria. Epeefleche 02:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

By the standards of either mainstream or orthodox Judaism, Beckham isn't Jewish. His Jewish grandparent is on his father's side, which means it fails the test of matrilineal descent which would make him Jewish under Orthodox rules. Obviously, his mother wasn't Jewish, which rules him out from a mainstream perspective. And for reform Jews, because he wasn't raised as a Jew, he's not Jewish (a few occasions when he went to Jewish weddings with this grandfather don't really make him "raised as a Jew"). Beckham would, however, be allowed to make aliyah and become an Israeli citizen under the law of return. But given that he's obviously not practicing, isn't a Jew by any of the major traditions, and hasn't said that he considers himself anything more than part-Jewish, I'm going to delete him from the list. 86.149.215.55 (talk) 20:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Charles C. Moskowitz -- under basketball

Query whether he is notable, or should be deleted. I was not able to confirm the NBA Commissioner add, and deleted the reference, for starters, to his being a fine basketball player.--Epeefleche 20:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

if you were in AEPi you'd know that being a fine basketball player is a crucial part of who he was

The criteria, as indicated on the first page, is: "This list includes Jews who have had outstanding achievements in sports. The criteria is: a) 1-3 places winners at major international tournaments; b) for team sports, winning in preliminary competitions of finals at major international tournaments, or playing for several seasons for clubs of major national leagues; c) owners of world records; and d) for sportsmen who do not pass this criteria but are still active, we recommend using section "Champion Hope" for each sport." --Epeefleche 21:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence that he meets the criteria listed above. I suggest that his entry be deleted. --Epeefleche 20:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Others to add?

• Wendy Selig-Prieb
• Jonathan Tisch
• Steve Bornstein
• Eugene V. Klein
• Sam Schulman

--Wassermann 01:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've not checked each myself, but if the bio indicates that they are Jewish, and they satisfy the notability standars, I would say go right ahead and add them. Epeefleche 02:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Attempt to delete subcategory of Jewish athletes

Well, they are trying to delete a subcategory of Jewish athletes again. This time, figure skaters. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_14#Category:Jewish_figure_skaters . I pointed out to the originator of the attempt that we had addressed this general issue already with the main category and with Jewish fencers, where the attempts failed. Still, they insist on trying to delete this category. Any help by your weighing in on the issue would be appreciated. Thanks again. --Epeefleche 00:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

NB-For the moment the category has been deleted. Various problems--some troubling, such as one person removing my comments from the discussion page, leading to the decision-maker not seeing them before making his decision- attended the deletion discussion, and at the moment I am seeking reconsideration or relisting of the request for deletion.Epeefleche 02:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Steinbrenner?

What about George Steinbrenner, the owner of the Yankees? --Wassermann 21:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I've not heard that he is Jewish. Do you have evidence that he is? Tx. Epeefleche 02:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Red Auerbach ?????????????????????????????? (Revision as of 17:58, July 17, 2007 71.139.142.28)

Am not sure what the question is, but if it is whether he is Jewish, the answer appears to be yes.--Epeefleche 06:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Deletions of world championship information

Koldingo -- hi. Pls stop deleting material that relates to criteria for inclusion, such as world championship medals. If you have a problem with that, pls discuss here rather than edit war. I notice you have done so twice today already. The first time, without any explanation. The second time, you assert that the reason is "rm dated material and over description. this is a list of athletes, not a list of athletes and their lead paragraphs." I am happy for us to update any dated material -- what are you referring to there? As to listing world championship medal information, I've no idea what the basis is for your assertion is that it is "over description," and innapropriate here. It relates precisely to the criteria at the top of the list, does no harm, and there is nothing that I am aware of that suggests it is innapropriate. It is useful and interesting to readers. Pls leave it as is.--Epeefleche 05:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Too many entries without evidence, and FOOTNOTES DON'T ALL WORK

Now, I'm reasonably sure that including "Tiger Woods" and "Peyton Manning" was simply vandalism. But my attempts to click on footnotes for Pete Sampras and some others didn't link, and the footnotes didn't show up at the bottom. Furthermore, way too many of these athletes have no footnote or evidence attached. Thus, the credibility of the entire list is compromised. In fact, if an athlete is included here, I'm just as likely to assume that it was placed by vandals or overenthusiastic Zionists as by someone with legitimate evidence. Moishe Rosenbaum 14:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The entries when clicked through should reflect that the player is Jewish, with proper support ... the evidence need not be in a footnote, if it is in the main article ... no need to do double-work.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Nancy Lieberman

Lieberman was born Jewish, but is a convert to Christianity. I do not believe she belongs on this list. Thoughts? If we list Steve Yeager and Elliott Maddox as Jewish (and they are), I do not believe she should be.Sposer (talk) 00:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Larry Brown

the dude is hardcore jewish

Rod Carew

He is not Jewish, although he certainly has Jewish family connections. See Rod_Carew#Confusion_over_conversion_to_Judaism --Arxiloxos (talk) 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Luka Modric

Listed here as Jewish, but not mentioned on his article page. Dubious?--MartinUK (talk) 02:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC) He is not Jewesh.He has been seen in church for Christmas and in other ocasions.I have no idea why is he mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.2.128 (talk) 21:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Who is a Jew?

No, I'm not trying to start the debate, merely to clarify what criterion is used for inclusion on this page. Mother vs either parent? DMacks (talk) 05:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Tried to keep it to who is a Jew according to how the non-Reform Judiam groups consider it, which is that the person's mother must be Jewish. Thus, for example, Ryan Braun is not Jewish. Sposer (talk) 01:44, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Neither is Peter Sampras. If the matrilineal side is the one deciding "Jewishness", Pete must be erased since his mother is Spartan Greek and Christian. His father though is half Greek, half Jewish but still Christian baptized. Plus, Pistol Pete was baptized and brought up Greek Orthodox Christian. Periptero (talk) 01:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I do not like this list, but if I did it says "The criteria for inclusion in this list are: a) 1-3 places winners at major international tournaments; b) for team sports, winning in preliminary competitions of finals at major international tournaments, or playing for several seasons for clubs of major national leagues; or c) owners of world records. Bolding denotes current competitor." ..... nothing about being Jewish then? Victuallers (talk) 18:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No -- it's not limited to what one sect's (e.g., orthodox Jews) belief is, and therefore (as Reform Judaism does) can include athletes such as Braun, whose father is Jewish.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Boris Becker and Benjamin Becker

There is no evidence to be found that Boris Becker is actually Jewish (see discussion on Boris Becker article). The only source cited in the article links to a defunct webpage. Moreover, Becker recently got married in a Christian ceremony. And how on Earth did Benjamin Becker come to be a Jewish tennis player? There is no source whatever given for that, neither on this list nor in the articles about Benjamin Becker on the German and English Wikipedia. I believe that whoever put him on the list must have thought that he is Boris Becker's brother and therefore Jewish. In fact he's not even related to Boris! I think that both entries should be deleted if nobody comes up with evidence supporting the claim that both Beckers are in fact Jewish. --Aquinate (talk) 17:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I know nothing of Benjamin Becker, but Boris Becker's mother, according to many articles, was Jewish. Becker say he doesn't follow any religion in particular. However, unless he converted out of the religion, he is technically Jewish, whether he considers himself one or not. Wiki, for better or worse, has tended to follow the rabbinic definition (i.e., mother is Jewish), so on that basis, he is. He obviously was not brought up that way, and if he says, or there are articles that say he was baptized, then I would agree that he is not Jewish (although rabbinic law says you can't convert out of Judiasm, that is jus pushing it too far).Sposer (talk) 20:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

See bottom of Talk:Boris Becker - his mother wasn't Jewish (by the way, according to traditional Jewish law, it doesn't matter if someone who was born Jewish is baptized or converts to another religion - they'd remain Jewish; but that's irrelevant at this point anyway). All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 21:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I looked all over for something like that. Thanks. Pisch certainly sounds Jewish, but maybe just her father was. Of course, if she converted to Catholicism after he was born, he is still Jewish. And, I am aware that no matter what, Rabbinic law would consider him Jewish (and her too if her mom was Jewish, even if baptized and brought up Catholic). That is what I was trying to say above. However, what I was trying to say is that although 99 of 100 times, rabbinic law is the right way to go (i.e., even if somebody who has a Jewish father considers themselves Jewish, if they weren't converted to Judiasm, they aren't), that is going just too far. There'd be a lot less Christians (at least in the Middle East) if we followed that particular Rabbinic rule.Sposer (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

List Quoted in Media

This list has been referred to and quoted in the following July 9, 2009, Jerusalem Post article: [3].

Hold it! ROD CAREW?

Wasn't Rod Carew, hall of famer in American Baseball, Jewish?-1998wizard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.45.99 (talk) 21:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

See earlier section above. He is not Jewish. His wife is, and he studied to convert for a while, but he never actually converted. I believe that his children were brought up Jewish, but I am not sure.Sposer (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Chess?

Why not add a Bridge category, too. Really, if the (ostensible) significance of the article is that there is some attestation out there that Jews are non-athletic, then chess, as a non-athletic event, does not belong in this article. I'm going to delete this section at some point, unless someone gives a rationale for keeping it. (And I'll delete, not fork, because there is no attestation, as far as I know, that Jews are bad in non-athletic events.) - 209.6.146.164 (talk) 02:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

There is an extensive literature discussing the special connection between Jews in chess. See, for example, the discussion here, especially the numerous sources cited by User:Quale and User:Epeefleche. As such, it has been and remains an appropriate subject. As to whether it belongs as a part of "Jews in sports" or in a separate article, I can understand the argument that chess isn't a sport, but many of the sources do treat it as such; my opinion is that it makes more sense to leave it where it is.--Arxiloxos (talk) 08:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Chess doesn't fit any definition of 'sport'. By all means create a 'Jews in chess' article, or a subsection of the main chess article, but having it here simply furthers the stereotype we're trying to remove.--MartinUK (talk) 11:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we're "trying to remove" anything--that's an ideological battle, not Wikipedia's job. The sources may indeed have an ideological agenda; our job is to report the information contained therein. And when it comes to question of "Jews in sports", sources do include chess in the discussion, either as an example or as a contrast. A few examples.[4][5][6] --Arxiloxos (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Julian Edelman

Looks like a Pats fan had some fun with Edelman's description. WR, U.S. man beast, New England Patriots