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Does anyone even use Citizendium? They have pretty much the ugliest, busiest, least-user-friendly interface ever. I've looked at their main page twice and looked at one of their articles once. Even if I respect their ideals, their site pretty much sucks, IMHO. Burpelson AFB (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I once looked at one of their so-called "approved articles". It was written by a non-expert, had pitifully few, outdated and unreliable sources, and - though I did not immediately find any outright mistakes - was horribly superficial and banal in its writing. The corresponding WP article is a GA, and about ten times better. Lampman (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is just plain wrong. Fine to do something about it ( could have instigated a discussion first though ) and report concerns of this nature to the relevant authorities... but to word the complaint in a self promotional way and then publicly announce it ... that's just twisted! Lee∴V (talk • contribs) 01:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Having now reread Sanger's comments I'm even angrier - If there was material one felt was inappropriate and knew there was an easy and quick way to remove it, say a deletion tag ( I suppose you'd have to be experienced with wikis to know that) this would be much quicker than churning out pages of complaints and reports of complaints, and whatever you do - don't publicise the links to those images or the number of people who see them will go through the roof. Then one could complain quietly to authorities. There's a right way and there's Sanger's way.Lee∴V (talk • contribs) 01:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sanger replied on that point - "It's WM Commons, not WP. I have no authority to delete the images, and few in authority there would agree anyway." -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 02:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I saw this in the news earlier, and my first thought was how pathetic and desperate Sanger must be if the only way he can promote his Citizendium thing (which I've never been too, and now never will go to) is with such a blatantly BS accusation. The images he points out are not "porn" nor "child abuse". And is claim that he isn't doing it to promote Citizendium....right...that's why every time to say it in lovely "let me trigger parental terror" language, you immediately follow up with yep "Wikipedia has this porn stuff, but hey, not MY Citizendium"? Really too bad he could not act more mature about the split and just move on instead of being so bitter. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The funny thing is, I had a similar, erm, "discussion" with Sanger earlier on Twitter. You can work backwards from here or read the discussion below (wikilinks added for context):
lsanger: Enormous & growing amts of porn on Wikipedia...no reliable way to whitelist "safe" pages...how could K12 schools justify not banning WP? wikinihiltres: @lsanger "[…] porn on [Internet]… how could K12 schools justify not banning [Internet]?" Whitelists defeat the point of the Web, & can fail. lsanger: @wikinihiltres hey--I said enormous amt of porn on WIKIPEDIA, not "the Internet." Get it right, Einstein. wikinihiltres: @lsanger You miss my point. Wikipedia is like a microcosm of the Internet. It's a reductio ad absurdem. Get it right… :p
Shortly after that point (without any further reply), Sanger blocked me on Twitter, much to my annoyance as I had been "following" him. It was interesting to see the redux on a larger scale, but I'm divided on how much of it was a play for attention (and there's certainly something there) and how much of it is genuine concern (whether or not it is misguided, I suspend judgement).
Ultimately, sure, we shouldn't have child pornography, but there certainly isn't anything illegal on Commons, so far as I can tell. Tasteless? Perhaps. Illegal? Highly doubtful. But then taste has never been a key factor, it's about culture, history, education, all that. We're not censored, and while I do think we go a bit too far on some fronts for my tastes, I'd rather that than some sort of anti-nudity, anti-sexuality iconoclasm. Knowledge comes in all forms, and though some of that knowledge may be regarded as obscene in some contexts—for example depictions of Muhammad are considered offensive by Muslims (see previous Signpost story)—it is knowledge nonetheless and shouldn't be blocked, on principle. I do think we have a ways to go—balancing tastefulness with educational value, with non-censorship, with varying ideas of the level of obscenity involved, is no easy task and we've certainly not done as well in this regard as we might like. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits|⚡}} 01:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sanger's antics are always hilarious. —Dark 01:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I find the comments to be too self-serving. While he may have a point (if indeed illegal images are being hosted by WP, we need to report their uploading and potentially help the authorities. WP is not an image hosting service...especially those who would exploit children), he basically stated it in the worst way possible. However, I find it interesting that the images aren't linked at all. Shouldn't we be able to see these images and judge for ourselves whether Mr. Sanger is an idiot/someone with an axe to grind or someone who has a valid concern with Wikipedia? Furthermore what is the status of User:Larry Sanger with regards to WP:LEGAL? "If you make legal threats or take legal action over a Wikipedia dispute, you may be blocked from editing so that the matter is not exacerbated through other channels. Users who make legal threats will typically be blocked from editing while legal threats are outstanding.". — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, there really is sort of a logical paradox in "be able to see these images and judge for ourselves". If he's right (and I'm not saying he is, just hypothesizing for the sake of discussion), then according to the law, you're now guilty of "knowingly possesses" and have to worry about defenses. Note - part of his message is he felt he had to made a report for such a possession defense, so he was indeed caught in the paradox, thus it's consistent (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and please don't argue with me that the paradox is absurd, I didn't write the law in question) -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 02:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And it isn't a legal threat, since he already filed the FBI report, and was notifying the Trustees about it. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 02:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - "...or take legal action" Sole Soul (talk) 12:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lets only include sanger comment the Criticism of Wikipedia only if we mention how much he had to back peddle. I think i was more shock by the allegations than the images in question. So blown out of proportionWeaponbb7 (talk) 02:09, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sanger the "co-founder"? That's a BIG stretch of the imagination. Jimmy employed him, and it was Jimmy who did the conceptual work and saw it through (not to mention put his money where his mouth was, unconditionally). Very sour grapes on show, Mr Sanger. Tony (talk) 05:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Sanger the "co-founder" (please read!). You've been taken by Jimbo's PR campaign to rewrite history. It was in fact Sanger who did much (though not all) of the conceptual work. Anyway, say what you will about him being right or wrong, reading through all his material should make it clear he is sincere. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 05:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Q: Why did Larry Sanger cross the road?
  - A: Larry Sanger didn't cross the road, he had no role in road-crossing Jimmy Wales crossed the road, it was entirely his idea, Larry was just an employee. DS (talk) 12:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC) (entirely my joke, all my idea, no one else came up with it)[reply]
  - Sanger ideas were behind much of Wikipedia, but he later thought Wikipedia was a bad idea and is doomed to fail. When Wkipedia did not fail, he became so bitter about it. Sole Soul (talk) 12:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - He didn't come to the conclusion that Wikipedia was a bad idea per se -- but he's clearly bitter about his experience here. He was hired to run Nupedia (which wasn't going as well as expected), Wikipedia was an accidental development which Sanger wanted to run more as he had Nupedia, however he felt he wasn't being supported by the community, suffered WikiBurnout, & left. I suspect that had someone directly explained to him how his emphasis on credentialed expertise & how he was applying his beliefs were not beneficial to the project, he would not have left on the bad terms he had; however, since then he's only repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't understand how Wikipedia works & became increasingly marginal to the project. This incident only proves he's failed to move on with his life & career -- hey, when all is said & done, it's only a website -- & his bitterness has soured into anger. -- llywrch (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was in a radio debate with Sanger a while back and I had to resist laughing at some of the things he said. Seems little has changed. Stifle (talk) 08:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't he realize that Wikipedia disowns any rights to the images themselves? (And I love his shameless advertising: "I have founded Citizendium, a 'more responsible' website.") Tarheel95 (talk) 13:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have been concerned to see that dominant wikipedia users (of course not all users) think they can upload any photo to the wikipedia despite the copyrights on the material and just mark it "fair use" and think they're above the law. So Sanger seems to be right on that point. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 17:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide an example of this? In my experience, keeping any Fair Use image, no matter how important to the article, is an uphill struggle which has only been growing more difficult as time passes. -- llywrch (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uphill, with the introduction of bots to the task its been a death march, for a few months I'd be doing cleanup duty on images I thought were entirely fine, but were tagged as fair use back in the day. - Roy Boy 01:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, goodness. Given everything that Sanger has done for Wikipedia in the past, I don't want to say "don't feed the troll" despite that being the first thing that went through my mind when I read this, but I do have to wonder just what he is actually trying to accomplish and whether he's not just trying to "stick it to Wikipedia, come what may" at this point. Quite sad, really. 82.83.134.79 (talk) 23:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 : Can you provide an example of this? In my experience, keeping ''any'' Fair Use image, no matter how important to the article, is an uphill struggle which has only been growing more difficult as time passes. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 19:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 ::Uphill, with the introduction of bots to the task its been a death march, for a few months I'd be doing cleanup duty on images I thought were entirely fine, but were tagged as fair use back in the day. - [[User:RoyBoy|Roy]][[User talk:RoyBoy|'''Boy''']] 01:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
+* Oh, goodness. Given everything that Sanger ''has'' done for Wikipedia in the past, I don't want to say "don't feed the troll" despite that being the first thing that went through my mind when I read this, but I do have to wonder just what he is actually trying to accomplish and whether he's not just trying to "stick it to Wikipedia, come what may" at this point. Quite sad, really. [[Special:Contributions/82.83.134.79|82.83.134.79]] ([[User talk:82.83.134.79|talk]]) 23:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)