User talk:Jayjg/Archive 38

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Is it related to the ban?

I just noted M Price's comment that I was violating my ban. Honestly I hadn't thought of that. On reflection, an adversary might say there is a potential analogy with that Laqueur-Qur'anic issue we engaged in, which was borderline. My suggestion was that there there was a potential I/P reflex. Had I reflected on this perhaps I should not have added my note, which now only might embarrass you, though I appreciate any admin willing to act as a neutral mediator on an article, like this one, where no one appears capable of budging. I don't think, really, that a discussion of the scission and sects of early Judaism and Christianity, which is a purely historical crux, really enters into the I/P area, but if you think it best I stay out, despite the intensity of my earlier work on that article, I'll withdraw and raise no problems. John Carter did indeed ask me to look over the issue. Is that canvassing? Again, perhaps, but I really have no ideological horse in this race. To me it is like the Shakespeare Authorship Question, a matter of method vs.fringe speculation. I apologize if just wandering in there (if you are ready to believe me on this - I didn't know you were the mediator) upset any applecart, as Price's comment now seems to threaten. I don't have the time to seriously engage with the article anyway, so my presence and comments can be withdrawn without harm, if needed. Good luck with the mediation. Nishidani (talk) 18:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that Nishidani is in ban violation. I just said that, given his history, that this would make mediation more difficult. --Michael C. Price ^talk 19:35, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think Michael may not be the best person to question the involvement of others based on their histories. Having said that, he did and does seem to me to be someone who is well-informed on the subject, which is what we all need. I contacted the Judaism and Jewish history WikiProjects for input on this topic on that same basis. I would have contacted him at the same time as Ovadyah and the others involved at the time of the earlier Arbitration if the "retired" notice wasn't on the top of his user talk page. I can see how he might not have been included in the original request, and might be disqualified on that basis, but do not see how having someone who at the time of the earlier problems seemed knowledgable about the subject would necessarily be a problem. And, potentially, a more difficult mediation might possibly lead to a better article. However, it honestly is not my decision to make. John Carter (talk) 19:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry John, but I think I have caused Jayjg some embarrassment on this, and that in respect of his function as a mediator, I think the appropriate thing for me to do is to step aside and withdraw. I don't think there is any substance to Michael Price's insinuation. Some mediation is required, he was here before I, and I think it best for the mediation process, which will be difficult, to be relieved of anything even faintly suggestive of conflict. I tend not to look around but rush in, esp. when a colleague asks me to. I didn't check, and not checking, failed to foresee the inevitable wiki complications. This is ridiculous, but objectively I did the wrong thing in not thinking before participating.Nishidani (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

While Nishidani's involvement was obviously not a violation of the ban, I think we have both sides of this dispute well represented at the mediation right now. Thanks, Nishidani, for gracefully offering to withdraw; I think your reasoning is sound, and will take you up on your offer. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed PSTS guideline

Jayjg, I've made a few changes to the "Quoting primary sources" section. Do these address some of your concerns? Current status here.

Yaris dropped me a note on my talk page about the proposal a couple of days ago; overall, I thought the draft looks useful. --JN466 03:18, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll take a look. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Congregation Beth Israel-Judea

— Rlevse • Talk • 06:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know! Jayjg ^(talk) 01:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Happy WikiBirthday!

Happy WikiBirthday!

Hi Jayjg! Happy WikiBirthday! It's not common that we see someone who has been on Wikipedia for 6 years. I didn't find a barnstar that specifically rewards great contributions over a very long period, so instead I present to you a cake! Cheers, —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! And I noticed on your User page that you'd completed 26 DYKs, but never gotten the award, so I've given you one. Congratulations! Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thought you might be interested

See here. Cheers. IronDuke 23:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I've stayed strictly away from that topic area for more than a year, and I haven't been involved in any of the "each side trying to get the other banned" games. It appears that things have gotten much worse in my absence. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Temple Israel moves

Hey, you moved what i think was a valid list-article / set index article wp:SIA that was at "Temple Israel" inappropriately to "Temple Israel (Tulsa, Oklahoma)". At least you should have opened a discussion before a drastic change like that. And, if accepted and implemented it should have been done in a way that moved the edit history to a reasonable place. I am going to open a multiple-pages wp:RM to fix all back to way it was, i guess. Please comment in that discussion. Please consider using the Requested Move service to gauge appropriateness of any move that might possibly be contentious, in the future. --doncram (talk) 03:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hemant Karkare and anti-Israel Conspiracy Theories

I would like to bring attention to the article on Hemant Karkare, which is currently sufferring from a massive edit war, possibly by sock puppets (see my post here for the list) led by an anti-Israel editor named User:TwoHorned (He tried to POV-push in the India-Israel relations article before). The focus of the "edit-war" is over WP:FRINGE Conspiracy Theories concerning his death and the 2008 Mumbai attacks (in which a Chabad Lubavich center in Mumbai was destroyed by Pakistani Muslims). The edit-warriors keep inserting many bogus claims made by extremists, one of them is that Israeli-government has been fomenting religious riots in India (see this section of their version). Perhaps some intervention would prove constructive in this area. Thanks.117.194.197.61 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC).

sigh... Possibily infdef banned user Hkelkar is back again... Material is sourced and there is a discussion on the page. So please come discuss instead of blindly erasing. If you find material that contradicts the mentionned sources, bring it. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 09:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It looks like the people adding the material need to seriously review WP:FRINGE, WP:REDFLAG, and WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:06, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if the added material is really fringe in India: there is one book published, articles about the subject, legal cases in preparation. Well, all of this must just be well presented, the pros and the cons. And I don't want sockpuppets or infdef banned used users to prevent any editing of the article. I'm a regular wikipedia user. Thanks. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 09:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The material is, without any doubt, conspiratorial nonsense, WP:FRINGE, WP:REDFLAG, WP:UNDUE, etc. Please review those policies carefully. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely right. Before TwoHorned harps further on Indian media coverage, bear in mind that the Indian media is vast in size and scope (spanning a readership of hundreds of millions of people across dozens of languages), and Indian journalists and newspapers are often under extreme pressures from competitors to produce sensationalist material for ratings. Therefore, conspiratorial rubbish with mass appeal is often published in Indian newspapers without any independent fact checking or research. Citing Indian media sources is well and good, but it must be tempered by WP:REDFLAG and WP:FRINGE.117.194.193.101 (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Before any rash decisions are made, I should point out that it was User:TwoHorned who added the part about the Israelis fomenting religious riots in India [1][2](and then edit-warring in order to keep it in). the absurd and conspiratorial language suggests bad faith editing. Furthermore, some of his sources are highly dubious, like this one, from a pro-Islamist website masquerading as a non-partisan news source (compare what they say about Zakir Naik[3], to what more reliable sources say about him [4][5]).117.194.193.101 (talk) 17:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, here is a sample of the extremely conspiratorial rhetoric found in TwoHorned's "Flagship source", a book by an Islamist sympathizer titled "Who Killed Karkare?" Can a book containing this type of militant rhetoric be considered a WP:RS?

“ The allegation that sections of and individual Indian Muslims indulged in “terrorism” surfaced for the first time with the ascent of the Hindutva forces in mid-1990s and became state policy with the BJP’s coming to power at the Centre. With even “secular” media joining the role as stenographers of security agencies, this became an accepted fact so much so that common Indians and even many Muslims started believing in this false propaganda. ”

“ It comes out with some startling facts and analysis, the first of its kind, to expose the real actors behind the so-called “Islamic terrorism” in India whose greatest feat was to murder the Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare who dared to expose these forces and paid with his life for his courage and commitment to truth. While unearthing the conspiracy behind the murder of Karkare, this book takes a hard look at some of the major incidents attributed to “Islamic terrorism” in India and finds them baseless. ”

[6]

“ Terror's Hindu Face: Todays's ie, 18th May 2010's Asian Age's Delhi Edition devotes a full page to the hitherto well hidden from the public gaze and long suppressed by the media, Hindu Terrorism. ”

[7]

“ A new book curiously titled Who Killed Karkare? says a nationwide network of Hindutva terror that has its tentacles spread up to Nepal and Israel is out to destroy the India most Indians have known for ages and to remould it into some kind of Afghanistan under the Taliban. ”

[8].117.194.193.101 (talk) 17:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, besides the usual crap and personnal attacks typical of infdef banned user Hkelkar, please note that:

• I didn't include the ref you're talking about.
• The implication of israeli intelligence in the affair is not an invention of mine, but comes from the mentionned source book.
• The controversy about the assination of 3 people, including Karkare, is something real in India.
• There is a book and sourced material on it.

For me, that's all about it. I do intent to reduce the size of the section, and put it in more regular form, but pretend that is "fringe conspiracy" is non-sense and pov, given the proportion that is affair has taken in India. And,btw, "pressure on journalists" is not something particular to India. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 08:11, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The "book" is not an RS, and the other articles cited are either from Fringe Islamist websites, or so-called "News Sources" of National Enquirer-esque notability.59.160.210.68 (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Nice try but: "Hermant Karkare conspiracy" google search gives more than 45 000 responses... with journal articles etc. Try something else next time. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 12:32, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

TwoHorned is copy-pasting the same anti-Semitic nonsense into multiple articles, like 2008 Mumbai attacks and Indo-Israeli relations[9][10][11].59.160.210.68 (talk) 12:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

TwoHorned also appears to have a history of promoting Neo-Nazi conspiracy theories sources to dubious websites. See [12].59.160.210.68 (talk) 13:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd bet the anti-semitic-neo-nazi bullshit would appear soon. Bingo, Hkelkar ! I'm surprised noone noticed the use of multiple IP to evade block and R3R, by the way. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 14:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Further progress report. User:tTwoHorned is engaging in canvassing and has found an ally, User:Paul Barlow [13], and is edit-warring the anti-Israel and antisemitic material into Attribution of the 2008 Mumbai attacks.117.194.198.217 (talk) 18:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, if you would contribute to the relevant discussion in the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, then that would help resolve this matter swiftly and efficiently. Thanks.117.194.198.217 (talk) 23:28, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

2008 Mumbai attacks

Regarding your page protection of this related article, TwoHorned has expressed the intent to continue edit-warring once the article is unprotected[14], this even after the antisemitic Conspiracy Theory he is espousing has been debunked by the Anti-Defamation League, a highly respected source[[15]].59.160.210.68 (talk) 09:58, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

TwoHorned has started up again [16].117.194.200.64 (talk) 22:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It's quite disappointing that he's still inserting this poorly written violation of WP:UNDUE, WP:REDFLAG, and WP:FRINGE. This has been explained to him several times, including a very clear discussion at Wikipedia:RS/N#The Hindu pointing out that this is a silly conspiracy theory. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:11, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It gets worse. There is an admin backing him now[17][18], although he has done a reasonable thing here.59.160.210.68 (talk) 10:06, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

RfA

Thank you very much for your contribution to my Rfa. I have made a comment about it at User talk:JamesBWatson#Your Request for Adminship which you are, of course, very welcome to read if you wish to. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi

I am the main contributor of the article Maghrebim. So please stop always changing what I re-edit , I just want to make the article more clear thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.185.48 (talk) 04:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You've been reverted by what, 8 different editors now? And warned by just as many? That's a sign you need to stop making edits, and start using the article Talk: page to discuss your proposed changes. Please do that. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:58, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.185.48 (talk) 05:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Berber people

Considering the repeated vandalism by 195.132.185.48 - can something be done to block this user? Thanks - Etan J. Tal 05:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etan J. Tal (talk • contribs)

Well, you could take them to AN/I. They're doing this on several articles, not just Berber people. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Please help me - the novice - What's AN/I? Etan J. Tal 08:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etan J. Tal (talk • contribs)

WP:AN/I is where one raises the issue of disruptive editors. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:58, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Although no explanation was provided, I now understand that some editor(s) claim the photos "are not representative". Since I have no idea whether that is right, I can't defend the inclusion of these photos anymore - let an expert decide about the validity of this claim. After all I'm just the photographer and know practically nothing about the matter. Thanks for your cooperation! Etan J. Tal 22:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etan J. Tal (talk • contribs)

The editor in question seems to have a thing about "sub-Saharan Africans". Apparently he rejects any photographs he thinks look too "African". That doesn't seem to me to be a valid reason to delete the pictures; does it to you? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I feel the same, but I do not have the sources to contradict his statements. In case he is right, the photos are not relevant, but first he has to prove his deletions in a proper detailed explanation. I am sorry I did not have the wit to ask the guys there whether they consider themselves Berbers... BTW, Googleing "Black Berber" I found sites which contain photos of similar "facial character", so I'm not the only one who thinks the photos ARE relevant... Etan J. Tal 07:12, 25 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etan J. Tal (talk • contribs)

Blogs vs. websites

This is a blog: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

This is a website: http://vho.org/

The latter is allowed under WP rules, the former is not.

Which of the two contains fact-based information, and which contains ideologically motivated propaganda? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cortagravatas (talk • contribs) 13:28, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

You're correct about the quality of information in each source, but Wikipedia doesn't consider either to be reliable. I see I brought this up with on your Talk page almost two years ago. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This user posted the same message on my talk page. See my response there. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Temple Israel (Memphis, Tennessee)

— Rlevse • Talk • 06:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)