Talk:County Londonderry

Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.

Template:Pbneutral How and why was it decided to put this article at Londonderry instead of Derry? -- Kwekubo 01:22, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Londonderry is the official name of both the city and the county. So what name should we use in official articles?

(1) The official name? or, (2) The name preferred by Irish nationalists?

Prior to the recent Northern Ireland troubles, this controversy did not exist. Everybody accepted that the official name was Londonderry. Many called it Derry for short without any political prejudice whatsoever. You could say either Londonderry or Derry without raising any tension in any company.

The objection to the official name Londonderry is a modern thing dating to the late nineteen seventies. It has been stirred up by Irish republican activists to the extent that most people are now afraid to call it Londonderry. Most guide books call it Derry because they are scared of offending Irish Nationalist opinion. The same guide books never have any problems as regards offending Unionist opinion.

Irish nationalists seem to get confused over the fact that their preferred name 'Derry' is not actually the official name of the city. (211.72.91.97 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

I agree, the county is called Derry not Londonderry. The city is a different matter and has decided to call itself "Derry" (Although it has never got it officially changed from Londonderry). Out of respect of the majority of its residents, the city should be referred to as "Derry". Duey Finster 21:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a short discussion of this over at Talk:Derry. --Ikari, 19 Mar 2004.

Dhoire\Doire

This is just a question regarding the Irish name for the county, I know the city is Doire. Are they used differently grammatically or is there another reason for two names? :: Keith :: 18:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Doire" = "Derry"
"Dhoire" = "of Derry"
"Contae Dhoire" = "County of Derry"

In other words, "Dhoire" isn't a separate word, it's just the genitive of the same word. Hope that helps. Rinne na dTrosc 22:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the "h" is an aspiration due to the word "condae" that comes before it. You cannot have it meaning "of" in a singular form "Dhoire" in Irish. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

One Thing

I know this sort of thing has been gone over before but I have an issue with the wording in this article. It says when the county was created it was named after it's main city of Derry (later Londonderry). However when the county was created the city was called Londonderry by that point so this sentence is very misleading. Maybe it should be slightly reworded so it was named after its main city of Londonderry (which has subsequently been renamed back to it's orginal name of Derry). Ben W Bell 12:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. The county has never been called Derry, it was created from the previous County Coleraine, which with parts of Donegal, Tyrone, and a bit of Antrim, was called County Londonderry, after the walled city. :: Keith :: 15:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

But the county shouldn't be called "Londonderry", because the city was known as "Derry" before the British took our country. London is situated in south-west England, and I don't know why they squeeze it into Derry. We in the Republic frown at anyone who ridicoulously call the place "Londonderry". It is merely a reminder of the brutality of the Ulster Plantations, when the native Irish were cruelly treated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footyfanatic3000 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

i cringe...

Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "County Londonderry/County Derry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "County Londonderry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You are just as ignorant as Mr. Bell. The name of the county is Derry or Doire. Nothing else IMHO. However, I will abide by agreed compromise. The naming of the county Londonderry in the info box would defeat the purpose of said compromise. Arrogant people like yourself should be banned. (Ste01 02:19, 05 September 2006 (UTC)

It'd be so much easier to write County (London)Derry, would it not?

thats the most moronic suggestion yet "(London)Derry", "Londonderry" and "Derry" are two separate names —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.240.229.67 (talk) 18:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

why is it moronic- i guarantee you are not from the derry area, most likely an american, because (London)Derry is how it is written alot around here, along with L'Derry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.242.189 (talk) 17:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Vote

Is it possible to have a vote as to what the article is to be titled?? while i have no problem with it being titled 'Londonderry' this is certainly not the title most people use when refering to the county. I think that is also possibly the case when it comes to the majority who actually live in the county?194.237.142.21 14:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• This has already been discussed in depth at Talk:Derry. The compromise reached was to call the city Derry and the county Londonderry. Demiurge 15:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The county is called County Londonderry, never had a different name, nothing to vote on. Ben W Bell 15:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• Yes it did, it just was never officially called County Derry.

ˑ Ben W Bell you clearly are completely ignorant in this issue. I do not feel that your individual small-minded and bigoted views should dictate the name of a county. In a democratic world, the majority vote rules. If a poll was taken with regards to this county's name, you would find its name most certainly is County Derry (CM).

• Change: The county should be called Co. Derry, and so should this article.If this went to a vote, the majority of the city would vote for Derry, and the majority of the county would vote for Co. Derry. (Derry Boi 13:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC))

Sorry but the county is called County Londonderry it's that simple. I personally don't care what it's called, but the fact is that the county is called County Londonderry. Polls don't matter, just the simple fact of what the county was named. Ben W Bell 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Ben on this, historically the city changed name from Derry. Historically, the county changed name from Coleraine (plus bits of other counties). The wikipedia vote came up with a reasonable compromise - it's a pity the vandals cannot respect this. Blowmonkey 20:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, it is supposed to be completely neutral and unbiased, yet at the same time informative, the official names have to be used because those are the keywords people will most likely use when researching such a place, the current compromise where both names are mentioned in the infobox shouldnt cause any dispute —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.240.229.67 (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Coat of Arms

The coat of arms showing in the infobox here for Co. Londonderry is the crest of the city (or the city council, I'm not sure) - is this not a mistake? beano 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right, the county crest should be this. theKeith 11:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Well i am going to take doen the one being currently used, as it is for the city and not the county. Also the county would not currently have a COA for it being that it is no longer an "established county" and that any COA to be used would be historical, which i am kinda leary about adding to the the infobox. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of the other Northern Irish county infoboxes have the historic crest. theKeith 09:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If most equals 2 out of 6 then i would guess you would be right, the only other two that have it are County Antrim and County Fermanagh, previoulsy a user added cret to the pages, but they were the GAA crest for the county boards and not the historic county crests. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Derry

Doire/Contae Dhoire is the Irish for Derry/County Derry. There is no direct translation for Londonderry in the Irish language. Just thought I would point that out.--Play Brian Moore 23:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted it, but just seen this comment. My belief is that a direct translation of "County Londonderry" is not unresonable or unprecidented - but if their is little consensus or practice of it in Irish then please feel free to revert my revert. Djegan 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no translation of it in Irish. Derry is already an anglicised form of an Irish word. To then gaelicise London (Londháin perhaps) and tack it would seem illogical in Gaelic. Not only that but no one who speaks Irish would ever call the place Londonderry in English anyway, so its never come up. As regards the comment above that most people who search for the county would do so on the official name, that is patent rubbish. Only Unionists in Ireland call it that, and a few people in Britain, and even in Britain Derry is the normal form.

The people who live there mostly call it Derry, most people in Britain call it Derry, and everyone else around the world calls it Derry. Its called Derry. The unionists and few old toffs in Whitehall can call it what they want, but its still called Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.85.88 (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Nationalist/Unionist majority

I know Co Derry has a nationalist majority, but is there any fact links to which the exact percentage is given? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Derry Boi (talk • contribs)

Sorry I keep forgetting to sign the last couple of days (Derry Boi 15:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC))

The county is called Derry/Doire. NOT Londonderry. The county existed as Derry long before Northeren Ireland became part of the United Kingdom and there is no reason why the name Londonderry should be recognised. It would be like invading Devon tomorrow and calling it Dublindevon. Stupid idea, isn't it....? (Ste01 02:10, 05 September 2006 (UTC))

Um sorry but you really need to check history. There was never a county called Derry before the creation of Londonderry. County Londonderry was formed from County Coleraine and a few smaller bits of other counties. There never has been a Couty Derry. Ben W Bell talk 06:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm when did I ever say it shouldn't be called Co Derry?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Derry Boi (talk • contribs)

Derry Boi! ~~~~ after every comment, lol. Anyhoo, Ste01, you should take a look at WP:IMOS which contains a little bit of information about the Stroke City/County issue and how we deal with it on Wikipedia. Back on topic and I have no idea where that data comes from but it sounds right. You could look up CAIN at this address.  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> Keithology  Talk!  12:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Damn, sorry. Keep forgetting to sign. (Derry Boi 15:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC))

South Derry

I'm thinking of making an article called "South Derry".

Now South Derry isn't necessarrilya defined place with an official name. It is a term used by many in South Derry to say where they're from, to describe the location of a town or village, but most reguarly it is used in GAA circles to talk about South Derry Clubs, South Derry leagues, etc. While not really having a specifically defined border, most take it to be the area of South Derry GAA clubs. It is an area like South Armagh is, or North Down is, or East Belfast is, etc. It's never called "South Londonderry", therefore that has no need to be the title. Opinions? (Derry Boi 10:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

Why not start your article off as a section of this article called South Derry? Then, later, County Londonderry may eventually become too big and need to spin off South Derry as a separate article.

I am afraid that readers might get irritated or even confused by the extensive overlap between several area articles, such as: South Derry, County Londonderry, Cookstown District Council, Magherafelt District Council.

If you do write a good South Derry article, I editors will be tempted to copy and paste a lot of it into County Londonderry anyway, to make the county article less stubby. Just a thought. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I know I would be tempted :) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If we create a new article in this style make sure it does not conflict with WP:NOR, if we are talking about south Derry (note the lowercase) then that hardly deserves an article in its own right. We do not create placename articles for each point of the compass. Djegan 20:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

But South Derry is a place its its own right. If someone asks me where I'm from, I don't say "County Derry", or I don't say "Derry", I say South Derry. It's like saying you're from South Armagh, or as mnay Dubliners say they're from the "Northside" or the "Southside". Especially in GAA circles it is a common term. (Derry Boi 21:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

Where would it be? South Londonderry (UK Parliament constituency)? --Henrygb 22:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

It appears, at first glance, that "Now South Derry isn't necessarrilya defined place with an official name" (sic) and "But South Derry is a place its its own right" is a conflict in your opinion. Either it is one or the other. If it is a defineable place then it should be possible to show reputable sources. I hope it is not a pov-fork to avoid WP:IMOS. Djegan 15:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Meant to say "South Derry isn't necessarrily a place defined with an official ". BUt it is generally taken to be the area that covers the South Derry GAA league. (Derry Boi 18:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC))

More recently (i.e. to 1972) there was South Londonderry (NI Parliament constituency). [1] gives "The part of the Rural District of Coleraine which consists of the district electoral divisions of Bovagh, Bovedy, Garvagh, Hervey Hill, Kilrea, and Lislea. The part of the Rural District of Magherafelt which consists of the district electoral divisions of Aghagaskin, Ballynease, Ballyronan, Bellaghy, Castledawson, Clady, Desertmartin, Gulladuff, Maghera, Magherafelt, Moneymore, Newbridge, Ringsend, Rocktown, Salterstown, The Loop, Tobermore, and Upperland." Remember that this is for pre-reform districts. I must admit, I would have thought Draperstown was in the south of the county, but apparently it was in "Mid Londonderry". --Henrygb 20:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to DerryBoi's statements, South Derry has been called 'South Londonderry' - in fact South Londonderry used to be the name of a UK Parliament Constituency - how more official can you get? The UUP and DUP also frequently state it as South Londonderry as do many other organisations. South Derry is only the preference of nationalists, or as a short-hand expression by unionists. Mabuska (talk) 18:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone else here hate it when there is such a prefix onto a county?

Not one self respecting Irish person would ever call Derry, whether the city or the county, with the application of "London" before it. To have such a prefix is hated in the Republic and by Nationalist's and Rebulicans in the North. So really is anyone else bothered by applying "London" onto something Irish?

Reply

Few people ever seem to enquire into the heart of this matter. This is all about the bigotry of some Irish catholics who despise anything that is British. They want to have the word London removed from Londonderry, purely because London is British. That is what it is all about.

The word London is in the name Londonderry for very good reasons. It was the City of London that set up the whole City of Londonderry in the 17th century. Any village called Doire, that was there before the walled City of Londonderry was built, is entirely irrelevant. The modern city originates in the 17th century. It was originally a protestant city. Anybody who reads an account of the siege of 1689 will understand the historical importance of this city in the minds of protestants. By about the year 1884, catholic numbers in Londonderry overtook the protestants due to migration of catholics from neighbouring county Donegal into the Bogside area to the west of the city walls.

The catholics control the city today. This is all the more reason why they should show respect to the protestant minority and drop this shameful and divisive dispute once and for all. The dispute is motivated by shear bigotry on the part of some catholics who want to wipe out all traces of the British origins of the city. The protestants managed to cling unto power in the city between 1884 and 1968 despite being in the minority. However, those days are now over. The catholics are in control and that is unlikely to change. Can they not therefore move forward to the future, and stop winding the protestants up. The city is called Londonderry. Drop the matter, and if you want to call the city Derry for short, then do so. But official documents should always call it Londonderry.

If there was any bad government in the past when the protestants were in control, it was due to fear of a loss of control of a city which is a Jerusalem in the minds of the protestants. The catholics who now control the city are in a large majority and they should show magnamity to their protestant brothers and drop the bitterness of the past. The protestants will not get control again. The catholics should therefore encourage the promotion of references to the protestant history of the city as a gesture of goodwill. (211.72.91.97 11:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

If? You speak as if there is some debate on the matter. Wide spread vote rigging, gerrymandering, and employment restrictions were used to grind catholics into the mud. In a city which is 90 percent catholic, only 10 percent of councilmen were elected by the catholic electorate. You know this, if you are of an age, you probably supported it. You sound as if you are nostalgic for it. Unionists can call it what they want, and so can their few remaining supporters in Whitehall. Everyone else on Earth calls it what it is - Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.85.88 (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well the thing is the county is called County Londonderry, that is it's name. It's not simply a case that it is a County Derry prefixed with a London, the entire county was created as County Londonderry from County Coleraine. The name of the county hasn't altered since under any official means and therefore is called County Londonderry. Some may like the name, some may not, but the end reason for it being called County Londonderry on Wikipedia is simply a matter of that being its name. Ben W Bell talk 07:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Before the 1960s, most people in the area called the city and county "Londonderry" formally but usually "Derry" informally, and had done for the previous 350 years. This "hate" (and its reaction on the opposite side) is modern and was probably taught. Also note that every county in Ireland was originally created by the English (or the Normans). --Henrygb 16:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"efore the 1960s, most people in the area called the city and county "Londonderry" formally but usually "Derry" informally, and had done for the previous 350 years."

Don't know where you pulled that from. Derry Boi 16:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I assume you know the words of The Sash. This [2] from 1965 will do as an example in reverse where Derry and Londonderry seem to be used almost at random and the emotions are directed at the situation, not the name. The city's coat of arms (with or without a harp) seems to be tolerable to its council and residents, and the top clearly indicates London (though perhaps they don't realise that). --Henrygb 20:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this "hate" is quite artificial and very difficult to understand even as an Irishman, and ultimately the counties were not an Irish creation anyway. Why should "County Londonderry" be anymore offensive to an Irishman than the English name "County Dublin" or "County Cork"? Djegan 16:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm from the south, and I've always just known it to be County Derry. It's nothing to do with me being a bigot. I reckon that Derry comes more from the fact that 4 syllables to describe your county is a bit unwieldly. I don't find Londonderry offensive, why would I, I don't find London London offensive. The London part of the name seems redundant, only because it's always been know to me as just Co.Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.146.200 (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

County Map

The previous map was wholly inaccurate - Portrush is in County Antrim! I've uploaded and added an 1837 map from Lewis's Atlas, comprising the Counties of Ireland, the boundaries of which are the same as those studied by the Commission of 1925 and subsequently made redundant by the Local Government Act of 1971 :) Belacqua Shuah 12:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I uploaded a newer county map on par with the county maps for counties of ireland. these maps highlights the position of the county within the island of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland thus satisfying the pattern shown for the other county maps. I am aware that the other maps was just of Northern Ireland counties, however the location of the county on an "island-wide" basis is more beneficial to tourists and is a compromise that should satisfy both Nationalists and Unionists. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I must say I disagree. No other country in the world shows its subdivisions and also shows neighbouring countries in the map. There is absolutely no reason to include the outline or otherwise of another country in the map, it makes no sense. The outline of Ireland is unnecessary and irrelevant to the counties of Northern Ireland and has nothing to do with it. French subdivisions don't show the outline of Spain or Germany. US states don't show the outline of Canada or Mexico. There is no reason to include another country in the map, and in fact including it implies some kind of greater connection that isn't there. Ben W Bell talk 19:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Like it or not though Ireland was once united as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and that is where the counties evolved from. But France was never united with Spain or Germany, nor the United States with Canada and Mexico. Djegan 20:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ben, I am basing this map on that which is used for all the counties of the island counties of ireland article. This is the reason for it and it does not show any kind of connection with the south except for the shared island that we are all a part of! The reason i have included this map is that the prior map looks like Northern Ireland is an island and this is confusing to foreigners and non-Irish/British citizens. To deny the shared history of how the counties formed in the island, and heir relevance to each other both provincial and historically is ignorant, there is nothing to fear from this map! The counties formed from the old provincial kingdoms and administrative counties created by the British, this is shared in common with the south of Ireland too.

I would be interested in other unionist opinions on this matter, as well as nationalist. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  21:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a Unionist opinion on the matter, just a view. If the consensus is to keep the counties in Ireland as well then so be it, I was just putting forward my opinion and the one that had prevailed for a while. Ben W Bell talk 23:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree Rónán, as it was NI looked like an island. The updated map you uploaded is a perfect compromise. It shows the six counties' location within Ireland, and yet it still shows the border very clearly.Derry Boi 00:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Having said that I have a problem with the "province" as Ulster. It simply ignores the reality that the Northern Ireland counties are part of the UK. The current infobox setup is rather nationalist in scope and ignores any UK specific information as appears on Scottish, English and Welsh county pages; for example Oxfordshire. Again I'm wondering if specific NI templates would be the best compromise, because the county infoboxes for the NI counties right now ignore a massive slice of reality. --Blowdart 12:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Blowdart I understand your loyalty to the UK, however you cannot erase the fact that Ulster (Province) is just as relavent as the counties as both are no longer administrative regions, but used in spoting divisions such as rugby, GAA etc. Ulster more importantly existed as a Province long before NI came into existence. Many unionists use the term "Ulster" to represent NI even though this is, in terms of political bounderies, incorrect and maybe insulting to the nationalist community. To say Ulster=NI is wrong and it is upto the Unionist community to refrain from using the term if they wish not to confuse the NI entity with the Ulster province.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  21:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Contae Dhoire -vs- Contae Londaindhoire

I am not opposed in any way to using both Derry and Londonderry in English, as both phrases exist side-by-side in this day and age; but as previously discussed here, I agree that the term Londaindhoire in Irish is manufactured and non-existant in the natural language, so I think it should be kept as what the county/city is known as naturally - simply Doire or Contae Dhoire. This is not by any means intended to be a controversial statement or intended to offend, but rather stating a fact of matter.

The modern day Irish Doire, as you may know, refers to Doire Cholm Cille, Columbkille's Oak Grove, and Doire is the shortened version which is the standard and non-disputed term for the city and county in Irish.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.49.29 (talk) 12:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's quite correct. There are enough issues to be dealt with, instead of making up new and irrelevant terms that can only confuse people.Hohenloh (talk) 03:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

What...! I'm in favour of people using the Contae Londandhoire spelling, as it show that the irish gaelic language respects people how wish to call the county and city by it's offical name of Londonderry/Londandhoire, thought due to the irish rule of spelling, the 'i' before the second 'n' would haved to be removed as it break the primary rule of slender with slender, broad with broad. If your all so anti Londonderry why not change the county's name back to its original of County Coleraine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.42.35 (talk) 20:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Stick to official names rather than scrupulous ideas. It takes up the time of people who are trying to improve articles on Wikipedia.--Theosony (talk) 04:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It is not the job of Wikipedia to tell the Irish how to speak their language. Making up names is very misleading and will further confuse outside readers. Whether you like it or not, Irish has a settled name for the place, that is not a matter for debate but a verifiable fact. While the Derry/Londonderry kerfuffle will roll on as to its English naming, there is no debate or controversy in Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.85.88 (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Nationalists only have a problem with the name Londonderry because it includes the name London in it, and thats the simple reason why they don't have an official Irish version of it. If King James I had decided to call the city Derrie as he originally intended or lets just say call it New Derry (seeing as the old one was destroyed by the Irish in the first place and thus they created the whole problem) i bet there wouldn't be a problem or single issue with it today. Its simple bigotry over the name London, which was only added afterall to give acknowlegdement to the fact it was the London companies that rebuilt the place. Mabuska (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Well of course nationalists have a problem with London being in the name, because the English messed around with an Irish name. And the Irish didn't destroy the old Derry. The British just destroyed it when they carried out the plantations, and if the plantations hadn't have been carried out there would be no such thing as Unionists, instead the native Irish would still be there today. Also, this carry-on about "official names" is ridiculous. The article about Germany is called "Germany", for example, while the official name is "Federal Republic of Germany". The common name is the most important, and "Londonderry" is only very rarely used outside Northern Ireland. Every tourist I've met refers to the place as "Derry", and Derry also yields more results than Londonderry on Google, with Derry getting 8.72 million results and Londonderry getting 6.56 million results. And "Londaindhoire", by the way, gets 63 results. FF3000 (talk) 12:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually your wrong. England captured Derry is 1566, and lost it 1567. They captured it again 1600, and a new town was built in 1603, still called Derry at this time. This new town however was destoryed by the Irish, under Cahir O'Doherty in 1608. It was after this that the Plantation of Ulster would occur and a second new settlement was built, with it being called Londonderry after the London companies who built it and given a city charter in 1613. So yes the Irish did destroy Derry with it being rebuilt and renamed afterwards. Even the Derry Wikipedia article states that Cahir O'Doherty destroyed Derry.

Not all people of Plantation stock are Unionists and not all Unionists are of Plantation stock - thats gross simplification of a complex matter and such a statement beggers belief.

Also just because Derry appears more often than Londonderry on Google doesn't mean its more popular, just like the fact there are more Londonderry settlements in the USA than Derry settlements shouldn't be used to say that Londonderry is more popular. I can also easily say that i've met many tourists too that say Londonderry, which i have. Many Unionists, the Apprentice Boys (and even some Protestant bands) use Derry themselves, mainly as the shorthand for the city and none of us ever had a problem with use of the name Derry until nationalists made such a big deal out of it.

The nationalist problem with 'London' isn't because the English messed with an Irish name, its because its the name of their enemies capital and feel that it is a mark of domination, which if was the case what made Derry so special to be picked out?? Why not Londonbelfast, Londonbangor, Londonlarne or even Londondublin the capital of the island?? Because they weren't built by the London companies, who didn't even have permit in counties Antrim and Down during the Plantation.

The nationalists also don't have a problem with the name of their county's being messed around by the English. I've heard no complaints and calls to revert County Londonderry back to County Coleraine. I've also never heard any calls from nationalists from the Barony of Loughinsholin (present day Magherafelt District) for them to be reincorpoated back into County Tyrone which is where it belonged before the English granted it to the then new County Londonderry.

Also don't forget that in your search results, it will contain words that include that word, so places such as Ballinderry and Edenderry etc. will be added into the results meaning you can't use it as a tool to determine whats more popular.

Like i said, if James I had called it New Derry the nationalists wouldn't have given a toss.

Finally you say Londonderry isn't used much outside of Northern Ireland?? What proof do you have? Other than anything coming out of the Republic of Ireland i've heard Londonderry used more by media outside of Northern Ireland than Derry, i've even heard CBS News in America saying Londonderry instead of Derry.

Mabuska (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes but a settlement did exist before the plantations, Derry, and then the London companies rebuilt it, not for the native Irish but English and Scottish planters. And yes, nationalists do not like the English messing with their names, and "London" being in the name is a mark of dominance, which the Irish don't like. I can't understand why the King did this, because now it has become a big dispute, and to give an example, the allies helped rebuild West Berlin after WW2, but Berlin wasn't renamed.

Of course they would never bring up a vote in Derry to decide the name of the city, because if the majority had their way, it would be Derry. FF3000 (talk) 22:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Who said a settlement didn't exist before hand? I never did. The simple fact you can't understand the simple notion of adding a prefix to a settlements name in respect and honour to the The Honourable The Irish Society (the London companies) who rebuilt the entire settlement means there is no point in debating this matter. I must also add Londonderry was built from scratch as the Walled City was built on a new location on the left side of the River Foyle whereas the Irish destroyed original Derry was situated on the right side of the River Foyle. You could easily claim it was an entirely new settlement thats only link to the old Derry was its proximity and addition of Derry to its name. Berlin wasn't entirely destroyed and rebuilt on an new location by a corporation based in one city.

If the issue of chaging names was the reason which you state then why is their no complaints from nationalists over Draperstown in County Lononderry? It was originally known as either Cross of Ballinascreen, Moyheeland, or Burboy, however was named after the Drapers Company when they took over it and built a new settlement. It is regulary referred to and known as Ballinascreen to locals anyways yet they haven't complained about the fact its officially known as Draperstown, which like Londonderry was only named such in recognition of its builders. An Dun Mor (Dunmore) was renamed Randalstown after the Marquis of Antrim, Randal MacDonell, and there have been no complaints about that either from the now nationalist majority village. In fact the Irish for it now is Baile Raghnail which means Randals Town. No doubt there are many other such settlements in Ireland. So that blows the notion of Irish disliking English altered names out of the water.

Finally don't assume that all Irish think like you do. In fact don't assume to know what the Irish like and don't like, you are one person with your own opinions which may or may not have support with others. Not all Irish are nationalist/republicans. Though most don't like to admit it, Unionists are just as Irish as nationalists. I'm an Atheist, inclined towards pro-Union, support the usage of the name Londonderry but i consider myself Irish. Your statement 'which the Irish don't like' is just the same as saying that everybody who considers themselves Irish feels the way you do which is wrong as i don't feel the way you do. Please refrain from such assumptions and stereotyping. Mabuska (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

But doesn't being "Irish" mean that you see yourself as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, or in other words, a nationalist? FF3000 (talk) 18:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yet another stereotype. Nope it doesn't at all. It all depends on context. You can be Irish and not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a nationalist. Irish means someone from Ireland, which is the name of this island, so everyone on it is geographically Irish regardless of political affiliation or relgious beliefs. And not all citizens of the Republic of Ireland are nationalist, there is still a small minority of Unionists who haven't emigrated as well as people who don't care about unionism or nationalism. Mabuska (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

There aren't any unionists living here. There are British citizens here, I know, but no actual "unionists". FF3000 · talk 11:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Another bold statement that doesn't cut ice. The Orange Order still exists in 9 republic counties and their members would consider themselves unionists, in fact the Orange Order by essence is a unionist organisation, and they still hold a 12th of July every year in Rossnowlagh in County Donegal. And then there is also the An Comhortas Aontachtóirí Éireannach - the Irish Unionist Alliance which is a unionist organisation based in the Republic of Ireland, and also the Reform Movement. So unionism still lives in the Republic of Ireland despite the ignorance and prejudice that has been thrown at the small minority over the years. Mabuska (talk) 21:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, if there are, then there must be very few, because I most certainly haven't heard of unionists living here --FF3000 · talk 23:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Being a looked over minority what do you expect? Also the Protestant community which has seen some bitter bigotry thrown at them even by Eamon de Velera, its not surprising most left the country and most of those remaining keep to themselves. Mabuska (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

We don't give them bitter bigotry. I know some protestants who live near me (although they aren't unionist). We treat them no differently. Eamon de Valera just hated protestants because of the bigotry than England showed towards Ireland. FF3000 · talk 19:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

You mightn't but others do. Graham Norton famously stated that growing up as a Protestant in the Republic of Ireland was far harder than being openly gay. Also in 2005, the Mayor of Cork invited the Orange Order to participate in Corks St. Patricks Day parade - the Orange Order had be pull out for safety reasons due to threats of violence from republicans. Then there was the whole Love Ulster in Dublin fiasco - the amount of bitter people that showed up that day to riot was disgraceful, whether or not it was right for the thing to have been even held in Dublin in the first place isn't the issue here. Also your stereotyping again - just because someone is Protestant doesn't mean that they are unionist.

Oh yeah, on your statement on Eamon de Velera - lame excuse. You state that he hates (Irish) Protestants because of Englands policies? Would he not hate the English instead? His hatred of Irish Protestants can't be put down to politics - many Irish Protestants where lynchpins in the whole Irish Independance political scene. It was a Protestant that recruited Michael Collins into the IRB. It was a Protestant who wrote 'A Nation Once Again'. Charles Parnell was also one. It was a Protestant that founded 'The Gaelic League' that quite literally saved Gaelic culture and many prominent nationalists including Eamon de Velera himself can trace themselves back to that movement. It was mostly Protestants that founded the 'Young Ireland' movement which introduced the Irish Tricolour. It was a Protestant who coined the term 'We Ourselves - Sinn Fein'. It was a Protestant who first envisaged an Irish Republic. So his hatred of Irish Protestants has to be beyond the political reasons. His statement that 'Ireland is a Catholic nation' also didn't help. Maybe he was jealous of how much the Irish Republic and Irish Republicanism owe Irish Protestantism lol. Mabuska (talk) 15:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

You can't be living in the past. The Protestant minority today in Ireland are just part of our society. And de Valera saying that Ireland is a Catholic nation isn't offensive. We are a Catholic nation because approx. 95% of us are Catholics. England is a Protestant nation, even though there is a Muslim and Catholic minority. Stating that we are a Catholic nation simply means that the vast majority of the population is Catholic. FF3000 · talk 18:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

As i've already stated above, you might say that they are part of your society but events such as the Cork St. Patricks Day parade and other things shows many other people don't accept them. And even if events happened in the past they still affect people in the future - look at how an Irish Catholic grimaces when you mention Cromwell or Internment - thats living in the past but it still is part of the national conscience.

On Eamon de Velera's speech it depends on viewpoint - was he talking about the Irish Free State or about the island of Ireland? No republican would ever use the term nation to mean only the Irish Free State (the Republic didn't exist for another decade at the time, and so all of Ireland was still part of the British Commonwealth) as to them the whole island, all 32 counties is the nation - and de Velera was a republican, and so its open to debate which he was referring to. No matter the case anyhoos, yes Roman Catholism would still be the majority, but at the time in the 1930's the majority was smaller and he was making his anti-Protestantism clear with the statement. You can defend it all you want by using the stats but to de Velera there was no religious equality, defend if you can the following religous descrimination from Eamon de Velera:

- "If I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other was a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic"

- When Mayo County Council refused to appoint a graduate of Trinity College Dublin to a post in the county library, de Valera supported the decision on the grounds that the candidate was a Protestant and that the Catholic community, which had a 98% majority in the county, had a right to insist on a Catholic being appointed.

In effect its religious discrimination by use of democracy as the excuse. Thank god Northern Ireland and the Republic have both by on large moved on from such pathetic discrimination especially by backward bigots like Eamon de Velera and James Craig. Defending such bigots only nails your flag to their mast and thus opinions.

Mabuska (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The reason why a lot of us look up to de Valera is because he played a major role in gaining independence for Ireland. He refused the United Kingdom at first and then in the 1930s he broke the remaining links that Ireland had with Britain. If it wasn't for him we might have never gained full independence from the UK. Even if he discriminated a bit against Protestants, and wasn't exactly a perfect saint, he did a lot of work for Ireland. Even look over to America, where they look up to George Washington for getting their independence from the UK. He was no saint either, as he had black slaves on his farm (the worst possible kind of racism).

And of course we hate the likes of Cromwell. What he did still has effects on Ireland as it is today. He invaded at a time when Britain was losing its' grip on Ireland. And if it wasn't for that, we could have had a 32-county Ireland today! FF3000 · talk 15:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating thought this discussion is, how does it have anything to do with improving the article? Canterbury Tail talk 15:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Lol nice homourous touch Canterbury Tail :-) I'll respond on FootyFanatic3000's user page Mabuska (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought sticking to official names was part of the problem. Condae Londandhoire sounds fine to me. I've never heard it, but that doesn't mean is cannot or should not be used. Languages change ater all. D.de.loinsigh talk 21:57 03 March 2009 —Preceding undated comment added 21:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC).

However, Wikipedia's core tenant is verifiability. If it cannot be reliably referenced then it cannot be used. Someone doing a translation isn't reliable. Canterbury Tail talk 13:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Name and preferences

Just pointing out that the naming and preferences of different community needs a proper reference. It's been tagged for over two months and has had none supplied. While yes I know it is true, without a reliable reference it is going to be deleted in the future. Canterbury Tail talk 15:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you spot there is a whole article about it, full of references, linked from that sentence? Might there be something constructive you could do than making that comment? See [3] - happy now? 86.172.32.146 (talk) 06:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No need to get wound up about it, references were asked for that is all. Any such claims need to be backed up by references in the article in which they are used. All that was being asked for was the references to them, which I had no doubt existed. Canterbury Tail talk 11:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It would have taken you just one click to find them instead of wasting time here. 86.172.32.146 (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

And the reader needs to be able to find it on that page, not the editors. Canterbury Tail talk 20:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The reader can find it in one click to the name dispute page. You could have edited this article if you cared so much. 86.172.32.146 (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Daire not Dhoire

I think that User talk:Tomtwenty may be vandalising the page by claiming that "Dhoire" is the origin of the name. I have now added a reference to prove that I'm right. It always said "Daire" on the page until Tomtwenty changed the name, and two other users have reverted it, User:Mabuska and User:Tameamseo. Mabuska has left a message on Tomtwenty's talk page about the situation, but the user has ignored it.--FF3000 (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually it always said Doire until about two weeks ago, and the reference you provided states doire is also correct. Canterbury Tail talk 20:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the point is that instead of "Daire" or "Doire" being used, "Dhoire", with a h was being used. That is incorrect Irish.--FF3000 (talk) 22:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, not saying you're wrong as I never paid much attention in my Irish classes, but I see Dhoire all the time in relation to Derry. The city airport, city etc. Are these all incorrect? Canterbury Tail talk 11:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The "h" is used if you use a word before it e.g. Aerfort Dhoire, which translates to "Derry Airport", or Cathair Dhoire, which translates to "Derry City". It is known as the séimhiú, and is an important feature in the Irish language. However, when the word is used on its' own i.e. if you wanted to say simply "Derry", then "Doire", without the "h" is used. Basically you could say that "Dhoire" means "of Derry".--FF3000 (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, can you find a better reference that explains all this, and shows the correct name source? A good reference is worth it's weight and will finish all this under the grounds of verifiability. Canterbury Tail talk 21:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Have tried lots of different searches, but I can't get what I'm looking for. Current reference is OK though, as it explains what is mentioned on the page.--FF3000 (talk) 22:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

ff3000 is correct. Doire is the correct Irish translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.67.178 (talk) 12:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protect

Can someone please semi-protect this page and the Derry page? They are being excessively vandalized with Derry being changed to Londonderry or vice-versa. FF3000 · talk 09:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the vandalism is excessive. Yes it happens every few days, but it's not overboard or burdensome. However if others thing it's a good idea I'll put it under at least a temporary protection. Canterbury Tail talk 18:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Subdivisions

Derive tags work like this - language of origin, then what the word is in that language, then what it means in English. Thus Keenaght is derived from the Irish Cianachta - which is English means Clan Cain. Clann is Irish not English. Just like in English Uí Fhloinn is spelt as O'Lynn and thus it should be O'Lynn - Ui Fhloinn is already meantioned in the Irish origin word for it. Tirkeeran derives from the Irish is Tír Mhic Caoirthinn, however in English it is not Mac Caoirthinn it is Cartin or McCartin. Don't mix and match languages when the native is already clearly mentioned before the English meaning. Mabuska (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm well aware how the derive tag works. Irish names often have a few different anglicisations. For example Ó Cearnaigh can be anglicised as Kearney, Carney, Carnie, etc. Hence I thought it best to use the original name. But if you want to stick to anglicisations, that's fine.
However, you removed the parishes and townlands without giving any reasons. Why was that? ~Asarlaí 01:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes you thought it best. Having the Anglicisation for the word also makes it far easier for someone to understand how the Irish word is pronounced. Only people with good knowledge of Irish would know that Ó Cearnaigh can be Kerney, Carney, or Carnie - to the blissfully ignorant it could be pronounced O'Cearnag (as in English nag) or O'Carnack (just like Maghera is pronounced by many as Mack-era when its not suppossed to be). Just like Ui Fhloinn; in Ulster its pronounced O'Lynn yet someone not knowing that would think its O'Flynn or O'Fhlon - which is wrong. As i said keep Irish to the Irish part and English to the English part and then everyone can understand. Variations shouldn't matter - the commonly accepted and documented Anglicisation should take precedence, which i have included for them.

On the parishes and townlands i didn't notice i had accdientally got rid of them too when i undid your revision. My apologies on that part. Though the Londonderry townland article is a joke the way its done and laid out. Mabuska (talk) 13:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

So whats a traditional county of Ireland and misleading lede...

Please see this issue i've raised at WikiProject Ireland over the intro to Irish county articles and on some specifics related to this article which i believe are misleading and controversial. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:22, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

County Derry

In Ireland ,the country where this county is situated, the County is ALWAYS referred to as Derry. The city is sometimes referred to as LondonDerry, generally by Unionists and British people. But the county is, was and always will be Derry.

Here are the three official crests of Derry: http://www.emerald-isle-gifts.com/images/articulos/rug07dy.jpg http://www.abitofhome.ca/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/4010906.jpg http://faughanvale.gaelsport.com/graphics/Kearney%20Hasson%20and%20Bradley%20Doire%20Crest%20Med%20size.JPG

None of which mention London.

The County is called Derry, the city can be called LondonDerry if that is peoples wish. But NOBODY in Ireland calls the county LondonDerry. This semi-protection on the name County LondonDerry is a joke. Perhaps English people would like to pretend that it's called LondonDerry but it's not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.67.178 (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

In the United Kingdom, the country in which the county is located, the county is called County Londonderry. People in the Republic of Ireland can call it whatever they want, it has no influence on the name of a county in another Country. And it's has always officially been County Londonderry, County Derry is not official. Canterbury Tail talk 14:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Just because Britain are occupying part of IRELAND, does not make it part of Britain. And no, it has not always officially been County Londonderry. It was renamed by some British people who had never even been there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.67.178 (talk) 14:25, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not part of Britain, it's part of the United Kingdom and everyone agrees and acknowledges that even the Irish government. Beyond that is personal politics which have no place on Wikipedia. Yes it was not always County Londonderry, it was renamed from County Coleraine, and took some parts of Fermanagh and Antrim to create the new county of County Londonderry. It was not called County Derry prior to the creation of County Londonderry, it was County Coleraine and has different borders. Historically there has never been a County Derry, just County Londonderry. The history is all quite well explained at County Londonderry. Canterbury Tail talk 16:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You mean Tyrone not Fermanagh :-P The land of the barony of Loughinsholin which is about a quarter/third of the county, used to be in Tyrone - the rest formed County Coleraine, and prior to that it was known as O'Cahans Country. County Derry? Has never existed. Hardly occupied either seeing as most of Northern Irelands inhabitants are happy being in the UK. But oh well you can't please everyone. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and yes, the English version of history is lovely isn't it. --86.184.67.178 (talk) 17:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Not the English version of history, it's the history version of history. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true. Anyway this isn't constructive to the improvement of the article. Canterbury Tail talk 21:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The history version of history? Firstly, that doesn't make sense. Secondly it's complete garbage. It's the English version of history. Simple as that. I don't like it BECAUSE it's not true. --86.183.195.76 (talk) 00:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Mark Sheridan (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

With what? Check all the references, there was never officially a County Derry in the history of Ireland or Northern Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 17:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Hmm lets see, before there was County Londonderry as named by King James I, there was County Coleraine (minus Magherafelt district), then before its creation in 1584/5 the area was called O'Cahans Country, a minor kingdom that was part of the greater O'Neill kingdom, named obviously after the O'Cahans (now O'Kanes). Before that it was Ciannachta. No mention of a County Derry in its history British or pre-British. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:51, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You're point? I'm not looking for your silly history lessons, I'm just saying the majority call it Derry since Derry has a Nationalist majority since about the seventies thanks to a few controversial (Bloody Sunday) British acts. Sorry for the off-topic patronising, I just couldn't resist.