Talk:ENSCO

Regarding the address and location of this company

From the look of the recent edits it seems that WhisperToMe disputes the location and postal address of this company as Falls Church. "Annandale" is confusing. Even if census-accurate, it is inaccurate according to the USPS. ENSCO's corporate and other neighbors (a Marriott Hotel, "2941 Restaurant," Whiteford Taylor Preston LLP, et al) state their respective addresses as "Falls Church." The zipcode of this co. is Falls Church. What is going on here? Harrison789 (talk) 22:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• " Even if census-accurate, it is inaccurate according to the USPS" - USPS addresses do not correspond to municipal and county boundaries. We only say something is in Falls Church when that place is within the city limits. ENSCO is in Fairfax County. All of those surrounding businesses are in Fairfax County. Despite the "Falls Church, VA" addresses, they are not in Falls Church.
• Please look at the following maps:
  • Annandale CDP, VA: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/MapItDrawServlet?geo_id=16000US5101912&_bucket_id=50&tree_id=420&context=saff&_lang=en&_sse=on <--ENSCO is within these boundaries
  • Falls Church, VA: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/MapItDrawServlet?geo_id=05000US51610&_bucket_id=50&tree_id=420&context=saff&_lang=en&_sse=on <-- The stuff within these boundaries is in Falls Church
• WhisperToMe (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

ARe you guys going to work towards a compromise - or are you just going to stick to your guns? Jezhotwells (talk) 14:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The main problem is that MPennington is saying that it goes against the local understanding of Annandale, but there are no references stating exactly what this local understanding of Annandale is. I don't really see this conflict as necessarily best being accomplished by a compromise. It's already established that ENSCO's not in Falls Church, so the question is whether it is or is not in "Annnadale, Virginia" and we are down to two options.

WhisperToMe (talk) 11:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

It looks like part of the problem has to do with how you get to that particular place. The only way in there is via Fairview Park Dr., which starts in Falls Church, so it'd be more likely to share Falls Church's ZIP code (because it'd be a waste of gas for the USPS to route mail for that business park through the Annandale PO). But the business park is geographically in Annandale.

Rather than risking saying something wrong or confusing, we can say something that's correct albeit slightly less precise. Thus, we can simply say "Fairfax County" or "Unincorporated Fairfax County". I'm sure we can all agree it's there. We don't need the exact mailing address; if a reader wants to know that he or she can go to ENSCO's website. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 16:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"But the business park is geographically in Annandale." - That is precisely what I am stating. Geographically it is in the CDP.

"We don't need the exact mailing address; if a reader wants to know that he or she can go to ENSCO's website." - The exact mailing address is not stated within the article. The intention is to show the location within the US government-defined CDP, but not to state the mailing address.

WhisperToMe (talk) 11:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree, a compromise is best. My last edit is "in unincorporated Fairfax County, near Falls Church." I think this is a fair compromise, but WhisperToMe insists on adding the census-bureau designation of Annandale. Adding "Annandale" is extremely misleading (and inaccurate in the sense that there are no "city limits" to Annandale since it is not incorporated.) Mpennington (talk) 18:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)Mpennington

"Adding "Annandale" is extremely misleading (and inaccurate in the sense that there are no "city limits" to Annandale since it is not incorporated.)" - There is a "limits" to the U.S. Census-bureau based CDP. The map shows that such limits exist. No, there is no "city of Springfield," but I made clear that it was in an unincorporated area, which by definition is outside of a municipality. WhisperToMe (talk) 12:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Consider it this way; who is the federal government to define the boundaries of a particular city, town or village? These things are decided on the county or township level. See the article on census-designated places: "CDPs are delineated solely to provide data for settled concentrations of population that are identifiable by name... The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status. Thus, they may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name."

This suggests to me that Annandale isn't correct, and the delineation seen on the census maps may be an error on the part of the census bureau. I don't think it's worth mentioning that it's in the Annandale CDP either, per WP:WEIGHT- it's a very minor issue that has no bearing on this particular company. That said, I'm not sure we should necessarily put Falls Church either because it's an unincorporated area. I don't know if VA counties have townships like IL counties do, but I think that's the closest you'd want to get in light of this dispute. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"This suggests to me that Annandale isn't correct, and the delineation seen on the census maps may be an error on the part of the census bureau." - Why would the census bureau make an error? The map belongs to the census bureau. They made it.

"The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status. Thus, they may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name." - What it means is that the locals may perceive the "community" in one place when the government defines the CDP as being in another. However that doesn't mean the federal government made an error, nor does it mean that Wikipedia is going to use the local understanding over that of the federal government's.

"Consider it this way; who is the federal government to define the boundaries of a particular city, town or village? "

Wikipedia uses the federal government's definitions with CDPs. Annandale, Virginia is about the CDP, period. We very much use the fed's boundaries. We do not use the "local understanding."

"These things are decided on the county or township level." - They are not. Fairfax County does not supply definitions of "Annandale, Virginia," and no township exists. It is the federal government that has the sole definition of Annandale, Virginia.

"Thus, they may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name." - And we don't have any sources to define such a local understanding. On Wikipedia, "Annandale, Virginia" is the CDP.

"I don't think it's worth mentioning that it's in the Annandale CDP either, per WP:WEIGHT" - The CDP is the actual location, and aside from the county it's the only other entity.

"I don't know if VA counties have townships like IL counties do, but I think that's the closest you'd want to get in light of this dispute." - No townships exist in Virginia. In the case of ENSCO, it's the CDP, and it's the county. That's it.

"That said, I'm not sure we should necessarily put Falls Church either because it's an unincorporated area." - Yeah, this place is not close to being within Falls Church, VA. When municipal limits are involved, it is black and white.

WhisperToMe (talk) 11:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest that we have an obligation to follow the sources. The source given is the company contact page, they say it's in Fall Church. Do we have a source that says that Ensco corporate headquarters is located in Annandale? If we don't, then I would think that using map data, however accurate, to argue that their actual street address isn't located in Falls Church, but rather in Annandale, is a bit of original research, and thus disallowed. Remember we're not about the truth, but rather what is reported and is verifiable. Nuujinn (talk) 00:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll post the primary sources about this in this talk page, so we can see for ourselves.

United States Postal Service city names do not reflect actual locations.

Any secondary source saying "Falls Church, Virginia" is using an approximation. It is common in journalism to do that.

"Do we have a source that says that Ensco corporate headquarters is located in Annandale? " - Based upon the full USPS address (disregard the "Falls Church, VA" postal designation - Pay attention to the street name, number, and zip code) and the U.S. government's map of the Anandale, VA CDP map.

"If we don't, then I would think that using map data, however accurate, to argue that their actual street address isn't located in Falls Church, but rather in Annandale, is a bit of original research, and thus disallowed." - It is not original research to use a primary source to find a location of a place. If there was an inherent problem with a map, it would be one thing. But why would WP:OR discount using a primary source?

"Remember we're not about the truth, but rather what is reported and is verifiable. " - It is verifiable to use a US government primary source and a street address to find a location.

If you still have concerns, use the OR noticeboard.

WhisperToMe (talk) 11:43, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources:

• Annandale, Virginia map: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/MapItDrawServlet?geo_id=16000US5101912&_bucket_id=50&tree_id=420&context=saff&_lang=en&_sse=on
• Fairfax County, VA grid map: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/PDFViewerImages/TaxGridMap4download.pdf
• ENSCO HQ location: http://www.ensco.com/contact-us/office-locations.htm - 3110 Fairview Park Drive, Suite 300, Falls Church, Virginia 22042-4501
  • Even though the company calls it the "Falls Church, Virginia" location and the USPS city name is "Falls Church, VA," the place is outside of the Falls Church city limits
• The map is well-defined, so ENSCO's HQ should easily, unambiguously be placed within the map.

Okay, I decided to file: Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Using_maps_to_determine_locations WhisperToMe (talk) 11:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The census bureau's map defines a CDP, not a town. As stated before, CDPs don't have legal bearing and don't necessarily correspond to local understanding. Local understanding is what defines a town's borders and is paramount to keeping this sort of thing useful for people other than the census bureau. It's not OR, it's a source conflict. I've suggested before that we just put the county, since it's evident this is an unincorporated area. Wikipedia isn't the Yellow/White Pages; we don't need to put exact addresses unless it's highly pertinent to the article, and the CDP is equally trivial. The county is the highest accuracy location we can state given this source conflict. The other resolution I can suggest is to just IAR and put Falls Church because it corresponds to local understanding, which is how towns are defined- in the United States the Federal Government has no constitutional power to define the borders of towns. The lack of a clear RS including this business park should not be a hindrance to us moving on with important editing matters. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The CDP is more important and more relevant than a local understanding, especially if no verifiable record of a local understanding exists. Wikipedia has chosen to use the CDP as the definition of many places. In Fairfax County many CDPs have been translated into articles. The demographic and geographical information all stems from the CDP.

"The other resolution I can suggest is to just IAR and put Falls Church because it corresponds to local understanding, which is how towns are defined- in the United States the Federal Government has no constitutional power to define the borders of towns." - There is no incorporated town of Annandale. No such place exists. There is nothing other than the CDP. The US government does have the power to define boundaries of unincorporated communities as it sees fit for census-taking reasons. But those boundaries do not have any bearing on local government. The county is the unit of local government. Fairfax County is the only local government that residents of the CDP have.

"It's not OR, it's a source conflict." - Firstly there can only be a source conflict if there is a source explaining a local understanding of Annandale. And such matters can be stated in prose. For instance Third_Ward,_Houston,_Texas#Boundaries states how different entities or groups of people personally define the "Third Ward" differently.

"put Falls Church because it corresponds to local understanding, which is how towns are defined" - They are defined by clear boundaries, which designate limits of municipal power, not "local understandings"

A similar conflict did lead to a consensus. See the intro of Dar Al-Hijrah

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

"Wikipedia has chosen to use the CDP as the definition of many places", is this a policy, guideline, or are you just noting instances? --Nuujinn (talk) 15:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

It's me noting every instance. Unless a CDP doesn't exist, the article begins with "XXX is a census-designated place in Somewhere County, WY" - User:Rambot wrote it that way when it compiled the US place stubs back in 2002. The categories were city, town, township, village, and CDP. The demographic and geographical info of an unincorporated place with a CDP always stems from the CDP. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:11, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so what you're saying is large number or all place stubs for the US were created in 2002 with that structure. Many of those appear to have changed over time, however, since many place articles do not begin that way. Also, I don't know how this particular issue should be resolved, I'm not sure that the manner that place stubs were created would govern how we list a location or address for articles about corporations. Absent a policy or guideline, we're probably just talking about consensus based on reliable sourcing. It will be interested to see how this develops over at WP:RSN --Nuujinn (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

"Many of those appear to have changed over time, however, since many place articles do not begin that way." - Which ones have changed? There was one (Springfield, Virginia) that I had to change back because someone had edited it to try to match the postal service (which is not necessarily a local understanding either)

Wikipedia:No_original_research/noticeboard#Using_maps_to_determine_locations is where the discussion is. It's actually on the OR noticeboard, not on the RS noticeboard.

WhisperToMe (talk) 20:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Again, CDPs do not have any legal bearing. They are made up by the Census Bureau according to some system that does not need to take local understanding into account. We use CDPs in places on Wikipedia because they're convenient descriptions and easy to source, and in many cases correspond quite well to the local understanding of a town's boundaries. This appears to be an exception, as evidenced by the USPS and other sources that place this particular area in Falls Church. Local understanding is what defines a town, and it should be very much verifiable by looking at town-related documents, these just might not be so accessible.

But we're running very very much afield of the subject of this company. In the end, who cares? As I've said before, we do not need exact addresses for companies on Wikipedia, we aren't the Yellow Pages. People can go to the company website if they care. We can just put the County or something else. Can we agree on this at least? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:27, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I understand that ENSCO is often thought of/culturally within Falls Church, and I want that to be addressed. But I haven't found any documents that say that the land that ENSCO sits in is not thought of as Annandale (a plot of land can be considered to be in two different places at once). If someone knows where to find a document that would state such a thing, I would appreciate it.

"People can go to the company website if they care. We can just put the County or something else. Can we agree on this at least?" - Well, I'll keep the status quo on this page for now. But I'm waiting to see how it is resolved on the OR noticeboard. I don't foresee anyone trying to argue that this is actually in Falls Church, so what I will do is I will leave Annandale off for now, and wait for any input on the noticeboard. We do need to refer to the "Falls Church area" in ENSCO like we do with Dar al-Hijrah.

In the meantime I'll see if I can find a "Dictionary of Virginia" or something similar to the Handbook of Texas.

WhisperToMe (talk) 20:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Based on the initial comments at the ORN, could we not say something like "ENSCO's corporate headquarter are physically located in Annandale, but the postal address is Fall Church" and use the company's web site as a ref for the latter (since I think generally speaking the postal address is not controversial and thus using a self-published source of the company would be permissable.) --Nuujinn (talk) 01:33, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:41, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I was bold, but clearly this is open to discussion and refinement. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

No, it's fine :) - I'll be happy to see what others think of it. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

(Nuujinn holds breath). --Nuujinn (talk) 15:33, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Census Designated Places are used for statistical sampling. They are not locations any more than congressional districts are locations, and apparently postal addresses are not locations either. ENSCO is, unarguably, in Fairfax County. ENSCO is in the area locally known and referred to as Falls Church, regardless of being included in the the statistical Annandale CDP. Stating the ENSCO is in Annandale is inaccurate and highly misleading with respect to local knowledge of the region, which is why "Annandale" has been edited out several times. Unless there is some reason the CDP must be mentioned, I recommend it not be mentioned. Because the mention of Falls Church seems to be a point of contention, I recommend it, too, be unmentioned and we stick with "in unincorporated Fairfax County". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pwb3 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I rolled back your good faith edit, let's discuss this before changing it. You're a new account, but you seem pretty familiar with the topic, have you been editing this article as an IP? (I don't want to know which, btw, just the if, and if you're not comfortable answering that's ok by me) --Nuujinn (talk) 17:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Pwb3, I am aware of the role and usage that census-designated place have.

The U.S. government categorizes CDPs as local "places" along with cities, towns, villages, townships, etc in its American Factfinder. Because of this and because CDPs have concrete demographic and geographic parameters, Wikipedia articles use the CDP as the basis of several geographical articles. In other states it is not uncommon to see a CDP change into an incorporated place (i.e. Doral, Florida and Dunwoody, Georgia).

"Stating the ENSCO is in Annandale is inaccurate and highly misleading with respect to local knowledge of the region," - As I have stated before, I have not seen any verifiable sources outlining any "local understanding" of what "Annandale" is. Pwb3, if you want to show us that "local understanding is different, do some research at the library and try compiling something like this: Third Ward, Houston#Boundaries

Even if I had a local understanding, I would still say "ENSCO is in the Annandale CDP" because it means exactly what it says. But then I would add qualifiers, like "the local community considers the area to be in the WXY community" in a section about the corporate HQ.

WhisperToMe (talk) 01:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Someone in Texas arguing about where my company in VA is located is akin to a stranger telling me I'm pronouncing my own name incorrectly. I invite you you to visit the area and survey the local residents to gain the local knowledge that you so obviously do not have. You will find no one, other than yourself, who calls this location Annandale. I do not argue that it is in the 2000 Census Annandale CDP, a statistical entity. I do argue that to call it Annandale is misleading and incorrect. One of our neighbors is Falls Church High School. Why is it called that? Because it is located in the area locally known as Falls Church. We also have an Annandale High School. It is located in the area known as Annandale. As I stated before, a suitable compromise is to leave it as Fairfax County, no Falls Church and no Annandale. I believe everyone is in agreement that "in unincorporated Fairfax County is accurate.Pwb3 (talk) 18:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, WP doesn't work that way, we go by reliable sources. Also, please note we're include both the physical location of Annandale and unincorporated Fairfax county based on the map data and the postal address of Falls Church based on the company's web site (on the assumption that the postal address is not controversial information). Anyone from northern virginia familiar with the area will not be confused by the inclusion of all three pieces of data, since they will know what a mess it is up there (and yes, I'm familiar with the area myself, I spent a good bit of time there in my misspent youth). In discussions at Wikipedia:No_original_research/noticeboard#Using_maps_to_determine_locations the suggestion was made that we include all of the information, and that seems like a better compromise than to seek to limit the data.

Now, on another issue, you said "Someone in Texas arguing about where my company in VA is located is akin to a stranger telling me I'm pronouncing my own name incorrectly" (my emphasis), I take it to mean that you are associated with ENSCO? If so, you might consider reviewing the conflict of interest policy and single purpose accounts. Although it is not forbidden, editors are encouraged to stay away from article about subjects with which they have a close connection. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The CDP appears to be the fallback position if no other source is available. I have so far been unable to locate sources that state that the area in which ENSCO is located is called Falls Church, other than the USPS postal address and sources that use postal addresses as ENSCO's location and, of course, personal knowledge. I have located a number of maps that separate ENSCO's location from Annandale in terms of County Planning Districts (Annandale is in the Annandale District, ENSCO is in the Jefferson District), Congressional Districts (Annandale is in 11, ENSCO is in 8), Supervisor Districts (Annandale is in Mason, ENSCO is in Providence), House of Delegates Districts (Annandale is in 38, ENSCO is in 53), US Census Tracts (Annandale is in 508, ENSCO is in 506) and what Fairfax County calls the Annandale Submarket (which includes Annandale and does not include ENSCO's location). Perhaps a collection of negative information is not proof of ENSCO being in Falls Church but it does lend some credence to ENSCO's location not being considered part of Annandale. An earlier compromise on ENSCO's location which was factually accurate and not contentious was "in unincorporated Fairfax County near Falls Church". Is the CDP that important to include?