Talk:Human

Lead image

There seems to have been an attempt to change the lead image without consensus. There is a long standing agreement based on a very long period of discussion to have the Akha image in the lead. If you want to change it, please discuss the reasons here first. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, Martin Hogbin, could you please provide a link to the Section of Archived Discussion to which you refer? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 03:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

To interject: Most recent RFC, Most recent discussion --Cybercobra (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Cybercobra! I personally don't care one way or another what lead image we use, but I figured whoever still wants to change it should at least have a quick link like that to the correct Archives. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I just missed it, but what was the reason for the specific limitation to just one variety of human? If we take a look at dogs, for example, we see a small selection of the different varieties. I'm sure there exists, or could be made, an image that could show a number of different human... I really don't want to say "breeds", and "race" is something of a social construct but I think you get the point. It would be more representative of the species to show a man and/or woman of each of, for example, East Asian, Caucasian, African, and Middle Eastern decent.Embolalia (talk) 01:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Click on "Most recent RFC" and "Most recent discussion". In my opinion, it's not a bad choice - shows both genders, whole bodies, in context with a background, clothing and possessions. Though an image like this one shows many phenotypes, you would never be able to show whole bodies with anything approaching the detail of the current image. But if you are really sure the image should be changed, you should review previous discussion first. In the meantime, I've added the mugshot image to the race section. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 01:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The image is just about perfect because it shows average humans.

1. Most people aren't particularly dark or light skinned, but a sort of brown.
2. Most people are from Asia, and most of those from east Asia.
3. Most people throughout history have been farmers. I don't know if that's true anymore. Maybe a new image should show a pair of factory workers.
4. People are basically divided into two types: Men and Women. Very few exceptions to this.
5. Most people are pretty poor, but not shockingly poor.
6. ?

Agree that the Akha image is very suitable for all the (unsigned) reasons above! I think even if people want to rotate the image to have a different view of humanity every week, that would be fine by me, though a bit silly since the Akha does the job so well. But please never again use a stylized image in which the woman has no vagina. Unbelievably prudish and inaccurate.222.94.40.22 (talk) 06:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Listen. The man is not happy - whatsoever. She puts on a good face for the camera despite their terrible poverty. And no, mugshots are not acceptable images. Of all pages, let's try and get this one right 'people'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.125.253 (talk) 10:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The fact that the man seems to be worried and the woman amused are further evidence that these people are representative of the species. People tend to be serious and worried a significant amount of time, and then happy and content a significant amount of time as well. Also, that amount of poverty is pretty average for humans. It seems terrible to you, but there's been no drought or flood and their sacks seem full, so they're good for now, but as peasant farmers know, you never know. Chrisrus (talk) 14:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Tangentially, it would be nice if we could somehow use the Face of Tomorrow images (archived site link). (see also a gallery in secondlife). Just a tangent, for your interest. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the lead image should be agnostic if I can say so. The picture taken from the Pioneer plaque representing a human couple, used on many pages in other languages, is way more suitable to represent all Humans. Indeed it was made to represent humans to "someone" that has never seen one. About the five reasons why the actual image would be right only the fourth one is agreeable. To make an average of human skin colors is pointless. The fact many people is from east is not a good reason. The article is about "Human", not "Far east Human" or "East Human" or "West Human". Again the article is about "Human", not "Human Farmer". Poverty is a condition, not a characteristic. If it was a characteristic, that means there isn't any remote hope for poors to get out of there (maybe is really so but this isn't an article about poverty). Lucaseverini (talk) 18:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Pioneer image is also good. Chrisrus (talk) 19:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Any photographic image is going to have some issue, but the use of a photographic image is superior to the use of a non-photographic image, so I would tend to oppose changing to one just to avoid bickering over ethnic features. If we do use a non-photographic image, though, the only really acceptable ones are the Pioneer image or the Vitruvian man, and the latter has no female element. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I think maybe a gallery would be in place here, after all the human condition is pretty hard to capture in one photo. Something like what is in the infobox in articles like French people.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the human population is too diverse to be summed up in one image.User:play10000 21:26, 17 october 2010 (UTC)

The lead image should be a photograph, which shows what humans actually look like, instead of a line drawing like the Pioneer image. I don't see why we would need a gallery: we do very well with a single lead image for the horse and dog, which are much more variable in appearance than humans are. Ucucha 19:39, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not convinced that the best frame of comparison for this article is zoology articles although it does seem to be built on that concept.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

This should be a zoology article CybergothiChé (talk) 09:00, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Well I allow myself to disagree with that statement.·Maunus·ƛ· 11:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

please feel free to CybergothiChé (talk) 10:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Dog is a good example. Despite drastic intra-species variation, still only 1 lead image is used. --Cybercobra (talk) 22:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Sociology outline

This is the current TOC/Outline, after putting "psychology" and its subordinates under "Sociology," - a more accurate description:

TOC

1 Name 2 History 2.1 Evolution 2.2 Paleolithic 2.3 Transition to civilization 3 Habitat and population 4 Biology 4.1 Anatomy 4.2 Physiology 4.3 Genetics 4.4 Life cycle 4.5 Diet 4.6 Sleep 5 Sociology 5.1 Psychology 5.2 Consciousness and thought 5.3 Motivation and emotion 5.4 Sexuality and love 6 Culture 6.1 Language 6.2 Spirituality and religion 6.3 Philosophy and self-reflection 6.4 Art, music, and literature 6.5 Tool use and technology 6.6 Gender roles 6.7 Race and ethnicity 6.8 Society, government, and politics 6.9 War 6.10 Trade and economics 7 References 8 External links At issue now is whether certain subsections under the "culture" section better fit under "sociology" - ie. "tool use," "gender roles," "race and ethnicity", "society..", "war" and "trade.." appear to be sociological topics more than they are strictly "culture" topics. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 04:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Steve, you keep suggesting in your edit comments that others are unwilling to discuss issues with you, however, when I ask what exactly is the point you are trying to make you are somewhat evasive. Is there anything that you think needs amending or adding to the 'Spirituality and religion' section, and if so what? Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC) We are on to other issues now, Martin. Please try to keep up. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 00:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Do I take it that you actually have no problem with the article in this respect now? As nothing has changed, I wonder why you made such a fuss about the subject before. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Psychology already adequately describes the sections you've currently put under Sociology; I see no need for an unnecessary layer of hierarchy. I grant that whether Culture would be better termed Sociology is a separate, more reasonable thing to discuss. --Cybercobra (talk) 09:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Agreed, and note that about half of the "culture" section belongs under "sociology." -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 00:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC) I've gone ahead and changed the structure a bit to include a separate section for psychology, and to migrate much of the socological parts of the "culture" section to the "sociology" section. Ive cobbled a brief intro to that section based entirely on the relevant section in the lede, and it probably needs some work. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 01:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Re the "race and ethnicity" section, we should see about getting some better mugshots. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 01:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC) PS:The current outline status is: TOC 1 Name 2 History 2.1 Evolution 2.2 Paleolithic 2.3 Transition to civilization 3 Habitat and population 4 Biology 4.1 Anatomy 4.2 Physiology 4.3 Genetics 4.4 Life cycle 4.5 Diet 4.6 Sleep 5 Sociology 5.1 Sexuality and love 5.2 Gender roles 5.3 Tool use and technology 5.4 Society, government, and politics 5.4 Trade and economics 5.5 Race and ethnicity 5.6 War 6 Psychology 6.1 Consciousness and thought 6.2 Motivation and emotion 7 Culture 7.1 Language 7.2 Spirituality and religion 7.3 Philosophy and self-reflection 7.4 Art, music, and literature 7 References 8 External links -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 01:11, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Would an "anthropology" section make sense? "Tool use" for example doesn't fit well under either "culture" or "sociology." -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 04:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Technically all of this counts as anthropology, seeing as how anthropology is study of humans. Since anthropology is usually split into "physical" (or "biological") and "cultural" (or "social") subtypes, and we already have a "Biology" section, perhaps we should divide this article along traditional anthropological lines and have "Biology" on the one hand and "Society and culture" on the other? (With "Psychology" perhaps in the middle, as per Cybercobra's recent edit?) I'm not seeing the rationale behind why some things are being categorized as "sociological" and others as "cultural"; can you elaborate on that distinction? --Pfhorrest (talk) 05:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Some aspects of human development are sociological, meaning they are social in basis or societal in fruition. "Society and culture" might work in the short term, but I think the distinctions between these is important. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 01:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC) Steve that is not what sociology means, you are redefining the term again through a literal reading of its etymology (like you did with antisemitism). Sociology is the study of human society, that doesn't mean that human social behaviour falls more under sociology than under Socio-cultural Anthropology. It would make very much sense to do as Pfhorrest states and adopt a division between biological and socio-cultural perspectives of the study of humans.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC) My question, though, is what is it about language, religion, philosophy, and the arts, which makes them not "social" but instead "cultural" compared to the others? In my understanding, culture is a social phenomenon. So I'm not understanding where the line is being drawn and why. Why, for instance, is language not considered social, nor politics considered cultural? --Pfhorrest (talk) 02:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC) I thought about this point with regard to language. Because you've asked I've had to think about it and my thinking is that language, as we generally use the term, refers to natural language, and even more than that we reserve it to refer to surface forms of language (rather than its innate form) that we call "natural languages." Its true that if we speak of an innate language, we deal more with a psycho/sociological concept. However when we speak of the surface forms we deal largely with a cultural phenomenon - ie. a cultural manifestation of what internally is a psycho-social phenomenon. Politics has the reverse property - when we speak of politics we talk of the varied types of of intersocial dialogues as abstractions of what in local terms are cultural dialogues. When we talk of "politics" its understood that politics in.. the U.S. and politics in.. Iran (as examples) each have their own localizations, but the politics are similar - ie. people convincing people to do something or go along with something. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 04:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC) The Anthropology section doesn't make sense. All of the content of this article is subsumed in Anthropology which is the study of humans - (Humans do not generally fall under Zoology as the article would have you believe). As it is now the anthropology section is but a joke - material culture is of course within the area of anthropology, but only because material culture is culture, and culture seen as complex symbolic behaviour, is what defines us as humans. I am going to remove the anthropology section.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:08, 22 September 2010 (UTC) Science is Culture These are certainly among the aspects of human culture, things humans engage in: * 7.1 Language * 7.2 Spirituality and religion * 7.3 Philosophy and self-reflection * 7.4 Art, music, and literature but so is the practice of scientific thought, and investigation, including the modern/contemporary form, but going back to earlier forms as well. I would hope a subsection will be added in parallel to the above subsections, on human scientific (including mathematical) thinking, methods, analytical modes, habits, cultural norms and definitions of what constitutes science, etc. In any case, an alien visiting Earth would certainly list language, spirituality, self-reflection, and art/music/literature, but equally so, scientific analysis of their surroundings and environment, among the aspects of human culture. Harel (talk) 00:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC) That's a good point. Going even further, we can think of science as sociological, as it defines rules by which we engage in the common pursuit of inquiry. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 01:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC) See Cultural universals.Chrisrus (talk) 21:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC) Science section What is this new uncited section? Can we expect that it will be properly cited soon? It is, I suppose, a plausible "Just So" story about the origin of science, but just because we say so is not a very good bases for Wikipedia to publish a seemingly original history of the origin of science. Chrisrus (talk) 21:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC) Removed. It's probably at least one of original research, fringe, and wrong. Ucucha 21:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC) See history of science for a more mainstream treatment of the kind of content that may be included in this article. Ucucha 21:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC) Is it the consensus view among commenters here that a science section is out of place in this article? Note that proper placement of this section is as a subsection of the previous. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 23:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure, but I lean towards including one—science has become an important component of human thought (or, if you will) culture. However, apart from the specific problems with the previous section, I am not sure whether its general approach was even correct; it may be better to have something about the role of science and its influence on society, rather than details of history. Ucucha 01:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC) Understood. I had projected that concerned editors would simply rewrite the section. Given the anthropological POV the article generally takes, talking about such a recent development as science seemed to require a long view - one that noted its anthropological origins and its synergistic relationship with rational thought in general. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 02:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC) Why science when there are so many cultural universals that would define the referent so much better? "A creature that boils water" defines the referent better than "mammal that does science". Unless you pushed the definition of the word "science" far beyond normal parameters. Chrisrus (talk) 03:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC) (cutting in) I appreciate the thought and the intellect behind this comment here, I just can't quite tell what exactly you are suggesting. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 21:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC) This sections looks like part of a plan to get, as yet unknown, personal opinion and belief into this article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC) Eh? Your comment seems to lack any good faith whatsoever (WP:AGF). -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 21:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC) Nit picking In case the editors of this article are not aware, the hatnote was also altered ("compressed")by Stevertigo on August 30th [1]. To me, now, it looks essentially the same as it was before he edited the hatnote. However the article editors would be the most likely to notice if this alteration is finally acceptable. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 16:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC) ANI thread This article is now part of an ANI discussion. The editors of this article may, or may not, wish to comment at here. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 17:01, 20 September 2010 (UTC) This would explain how people got news of the ANI. Just curious, where else have you advertised it? -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 00:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC) I just came by here from the ANI thread and took a look at the article: A very alienating experience. Seriously. It looks likle the article was written by Aliens. I don't think I can think of a better way to do it right now though.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC) LOL. I had thought it rather written by 'scientists' ;-). I had tried to introduce the subject in a more general way and the only thing that remains of that is the mention of "person."-Stevertigo (t | log | c) 04:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC) Content fork Apparently Stevertigo changed a redirect for this article into the article Human being. This is a content fork WP:FORK as related to this article. I have contacted him on his talk page here, and he appears unresponsive (changing the subject?).---- Steve Quinn (talk) 06:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC) As an aside, I really like this proposed lede from Pfhorrest, and I think it should have been seriously considered (LOL! LOL!) "Humans are featherless bipeds indigenous to eastern Africa, which have since been imported to the other habitable continents and quickly become a nuisance species." NPOV enough? ;) (Just trying to lighten the mood here)." I got a real "belly laugh" from it. Thanks. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 06:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC) Early to mid 20th century history missing So as to fit in with existing overview, perhaps mention major 20th century events: - 2 world wars - advances in audio and video / film and television - nuclear bombs and the controlled used of nuclear energy - man in space leading to man on the moon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.53.222.21 (talk) 05:21, 6 October 2010 (UTC) Human oestrus and lack thereof There is some weight given in "Human" to "hidden estrus". I'd like to take exception or add information on what oestrus is, and why H.sapiens is without it. Please refer to: http://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/903 which presents an explanation for oestrus in mammals and therefore, speaks to the loss of oestrus in H.sapiens. I posit that the mitochondrial Eve was the first hominid without oestrus. The literature of oestrus always dances around the actual explanation as to why the mammal in heat acts as she does. And if you cannot explain it, then how can one hope to tell how it was "hidden", etc. ? Artist97 (talk) 15:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC) The article on WebMedCentral was submitted directly by the author to the site only a few days ago, does not appear to have been published in any established peer-reviewed journal, and has never been peer-reviewed on WebMedCentral. The ideas in it are thus original research, which Wikipedia does not publish. Please accept my apologies if I am wrong, but are you the author of the article in question? If so, you should certainly not cite your own original research or add it to Wikipedia. See WP:SELFCITING. Karenjc 08:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Here is some pertinent text from the "publisher" [2]Our Publication Policy - We publish articles in virtually every biomedical discipline. We aim to publish all articles within 48 hours of submission. All but the clearly irrelevant and unscientific work would be published. For all real purposes this is a self published work with out any review. Hardyplants (talk) 09:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC) The reply/comments are a wonderfully clear example of an ad hominem and petty attempt to reduce the entire topic of "hidden oestrus" to an attack upon the journal used as an example. The portion of the response that limits Wiki articles to those NOT the result of original research is valid. However, after noting that the writer decided to belittle the idea by belittling the journal. Fine if such is consistent but as anyone who has the slightest knowledge of "hidden oestrus" knows, it has been propounded in publications such as The New Scientist for years. And that journal takes as it's main thesis that our behavior is somehow drawn from that of our "hunter gatherer " ancestors. That IS the premise of so-called "evolutionary psychology" . It thereby makes our behaviors perform the magical trick of being constructed from whole cloth, ignoring the species ancestral to our own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artist97 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 9 October 2010 (UTC) No one is "belittle the idea" or "belittling the journal" it is not a valid source per Wikipedia policies. The idea maybe be valid or it may not be, but we need a reference that meets wikipedia guidelines. Hardyplants (talk) 20:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC) There are a number of books on human evolution that touch on this topic, here is a link to some of them: [3] they can be used as sources for this topic. Hardyplants (talk) 20:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I believe the subject is covered in Why Is Sex Fun? and The Third Chimpanzee and is referred to as concealed ovulation or cryptic ovulation. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC) @Artist97: if you construed my comment as an ad hominem attack I regret it. What I wanted to say, and am happy to try to explain again, is: Wikipedia has well-defined policies and guidelines covering original research and reliable sources. These are pretty strictly enforced, because they lie at the heart of what the enyclopaedia is all about. The material you proposed to insert in Human, and the only source you offered for it, appeared very likely to violate those policies and guidelines, so on the face of it it would not be suitable for inclusion and would probably be removed by another editor if it was inserted. I read the journal's submission and review procedures before I wrote my comment and I remain convinced that the article in question does not currently qualify as a reliable Wikipedia source for the reasons given, particularly if any new material relies solely on it. My belief that the proposed addition was probably original research was strengthened by the phrase "I posit that ..."; I'm afraid this is a huge red flag for any proposed addition to Wikipedia, which does not publish or cite new unreviewed theories. I also felt it appropriate to link to WP:SELFCITING, since a paper published for just a few days would be known to relatively few people including the author, who might just hope to cite his/her new publication as a source when adding ideas to a very public and popular site like this one, unaware that this is not permitted. The bottom line is that if you can add uncontroversial content on any subject to this encyclopaedia, supporting it with solid, reliable citations, it is (a) welcome and (b) almost certain to stick. If you can improve the description of "hidden oestrus" in Human without introducing new unreviewed theories by you or anyone else, citing only reliable mainstream sources for your edits, nobody will bat an eyelid, I assure you. Karenjc 18:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)