Talk:Beothuk

I think they did an excellent job on this!! I did other research and it was almost right on!! GOOD JOB!:)

Is extinct the right word to use when a nation or ethnic group dies out? I've only seen extinct used about animal species.--Sonjaaa 13:06, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

I think extinct is the right word to use, at least for an ethnic group. I can't think of any other word that could be used. --Lairor 03:30, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Date of Santu's song changed from 1929 to 1910 on the grounds of Beothuk language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.238.5.5 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 12 January (UTC)2005

I was taught in grade 9 history/social studies that great numbers of the Beothuk were basically rounded up and mass murdered by european settlers, and this was largely how they became extinct.... can't remember any specific texts, but I find it interesting that there's no mention of that here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.91.171 (talk • contribs) 08:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This page contains quite few small erros, and should probably be rewritten. In response the the above person, that is completely wrong. The Beothuk basically moved inland and starved to death as Europeans drove them from the coast. Which I learned from a 3000 level Newfoundland History course offered at MUN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.153.96.40 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I heard that some of the Beothuks were reported to have red hair and other Norse characteristics, from contact with the norse during Leif Erickson's time. Anyone else heard this theory? Ernestleonard 04:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

MUN being Memorial University of *Newfoundland*, wouldn't it raise some questions for the university to completely deny that the Beothuk were eradicated by European settlers in Newfoundland? CKSCIII 00:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC) .....................................

Unfortunately, the link to the Beothuk song no longer works. I contacted the CBC about it but they said they could not release it due to copyright problems. I wrote a letter to the email address I got for the Professor who spoke about it on the program but never got any reply. Can anyone else help out here? It would be wonderful to be able to listen to it again.

As to the Beothuks becoming "extinct" - the situation is rather like that of the Tasmanian Aboriginals in Australia. There are, of course, no "full-blood" people left, and the culture has disappeared - however, there are descendants of the Beothuks (and my family claim to be among them). We are making arrangements at the moment to have DNA studies done and I will report here if and when we get some results. In the meantime you might like to check the link I have just made to an article (downloadable in pdf form) which refers to some fascinating DNA research done at McMaster University on DNA taken from Beothuk skulls.

Finally, as to the question about whether some of the Beothuk had Norse characteristics - I have never heard anything like this and imagine it is probably just a story based on the fact that there was a brief Norse settlement at Anse aux Meadows. As far as I know, the Norse sagas indicate that relations with the "Skraelings" were not friendly (can someone who really knows help out here please?) and so it is unlikely there would have been enough mixing (if any) to make such a major contribution to the gene pool. I would suspect that, if there were any Beothuk with red hair, etc., it would more likely have come from early English, French or Basque fishermen. The drawings of the Beothuk women taken to St. John's show them with straight black hair and features that look mainly Amerinidian. Also, photos of my ancestors, who family tradition insist were part Beothuk, show pronounced typical Amerindian looks. John Hill 22:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

In a visit to the new large museum in St. John's in June, 2006 I read that it is unlikely that the Beothuk existed in Newfoundland at the time of the Norse settlements at L'anse aux meadows. The thinking is that the Beothuk came to Newfoundland after the arrival and departure of the Norse. The museum text stated that the "skraelings" which the norse came in contact with were probably in Labrador.

The Song

Ah, that song, I used to actually have that recording too from the CBC, but at some point I must have lost it. It's nowhere to be found on my hard-drive now. If anyone out there does still have it, it would be good to hear it. User:Benstox 3:56, 14 August 2008.

Oh, yes, I would love to hear it again too! I wrote to the CBC about it once but they were very unhelpful. Can anyone else out there find it again, please? John Hill (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I've also had trouble trying to get this from the CBC. They didn't cite copyright however, but essentially told me they had lost it by claiming the file was no longer to be found on their network. Further, I also received no response from the professor via email. Looks like this language is still lost for the purposes of the general public. User:TheTyrant —Preceding undated comment added 01:24, 21 December 2009 (UTC).

Quote

I removed the following quote from the body of the article. The sentiment is admirable and apt, but I think our purpose here is to document, not mourn (not overtly, anyway). Regards, Rodney Boyd 14:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"The beauty and genius of a work of art my be reconceived, though its first material expression be destroyed; a vanished harmony may yet again inspire the composer; but when the last individual of a race of living beings breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again." William Beebe, The Bird, 1906

"The Labrador" Link

"The Labrador" Link is now bad. They only keep the past three months issues available online. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.116.223.190 (talk) 04:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

History and Culture

In the last sentence of the first paragraph, should "previous" be "subsequent"? I hesitate to change it, as it might reverse the contributor's intended meaning. DavidOaks 21:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a question. Should I put that "Nancy April was believed to have been the last beothuk"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.116.202.195 (talk) 15:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

DNA Testing

Until the DNA testing is done, I think the part about people having possible genetic ties to the Beothuk should be removed. It is only speculation at this point and might only be the result of shoddy research or rumour. Anyone could make such claims. Would they all get mentioned here? But, if testing proves otherwise, it should of course be added.

Jmutford 13:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)John

DNA Testing and oral histories

In reply to John's comments above - I would point out that the section about present-day descendants of the Beothuk is clearly introduced as "oral history" and "family history," so there is no chance that the stories can be mistaken for well-recorded historical "facts."

DNA testing is now being done on a female descendant of Susannah Manuel (Anstey) - who is directly descended through the female line - but it may prove inconclusive as so little is known about Beothuk DNA to compare it with. Only a couple of specimens from two skulls have so far been tested (see the link to the pdf article on these tests).

However, the stories are not solely based on "rumour" or "shoddy research," but on strong and persistent family traditions (maintained over the years in spite of prejudice against people of "Indian" descent). Furthermore, copies of a (rather unclear) photo of Susannah Manuel (Anstey), and a much clearer one of her daughter, Mary Pond (née Anstey, 1858-1895) are in my possession. The photo of Mary Pond, especially, clearly shows facial features indicating native American descent. While this certainly does not "prove" anything on its own (and could possibly be explained away as a result of Mi'kmaq or Inuit inheritance), it does add some credence to the strong family traditions of Beothuk descent.

So, my feeling is that, as the family traditions are clearly marked as "oral history" and, as so very little is known about the Beothuk and their ultimate fate, the stories should remain because of their inherent interest. They may also help spur further interest and, hopefully, discoveries. Also, I believe that, when there is a lack of firmly established historical facts and written records, there is a valid place for family histories, legendary accounts, and the like in the Wikipedia - so long as they are clearly marked as such. Many other articles in the Wikipedia refer to legendary and mythological material, and it is commonly accepted by scholars that such material often contains valid historical information.

If and when the results of the recent DNA tests become available (and depending on the permission of the person having the tests done) they may well be published. If so, they will be reported on here. John Hill 00:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

"extinct"

I agree with Sanjaaa that the use of the term 'extinct' is highly problematic, its modern usage is only appropriate in the context of non-human species. What happened to the Beothuk people was genocide and clearly fits the definitions stipulated in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948/1951). A more accurate reflection of land-theft, racist policies, and a chronology of Settler massacres of Beothuk communities needs to be added to this entry. Using "extinction" and minimizing the direct agency of European settlers in stealing Beothuk lands, massacring whole communities, and enslaving the people (most notably women) is highly problematic practice tantamount to genocide denial.

Removal of Speculation

I removed the speculative part about the Beothuks having a bloodline that may or may not still exist today. Again, I maintain that it should only be added if proven, but not until that point- not even as "oral history." History, as is my understanding of the term, should be as close to fact as possible and does not include rumours. Reading John Hill's Wikipedia User Profile, I see the sentence "I am of English and French background with a dash of Beothuk" as if this is already an accepted fact. Romantic as an idea as that is, it isn't proven. I find the motivations of people making such claims too suspect and even offensive. I do not agree that mythological and legendary material has a place in this particular article, as John Hill implies above. They were a very real people. Jmutford 03:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)John

Speculation? Seeking others' opinions

Dear John: I am not trying to argue with you but the "oral histories" I referred to are not based solely on speculation - there is some evidence. Unfortunately, there is no complete "proof." But then, what and how is anything completely "proven"? After all, there are many articles in the Wikipedia with statements such as: "so-and-so had a French (or a Jewish or a German or an American) father". Now, how can this possibly be "proven" without actual DNA testing? Yet we generally accept church records and family traditions on such matters.

There is a very strong and persistent family tradition that we are part Beothuk (and my mother, myself and brother and sister have all been to Twillingate, Lewisporte and other places in northern Newfoundland, where we checked with a number of our relatives who all confirmed this story). Also, we have copies of photos of Susannah Manuel (Anstey), 1832-1911, who is supposed to have been half Beothuk, and her daughter Mary Pond (Anstey) 1858-1895, which show strong "Native American facial features". I can provide scans of these if anyone wishes - though the one of Mary Pond (Anstey) is much clearer than that of her mother.

Now, of course, someone might say that the facial features could have been due to mixing with Mi'kmaq or other native peoples, but this seems most unlikely to have happened so early in the region near the mouth of the Exploits River - and the family stories are quite clear about later mixing with the Mi'kmaq in some (but not all) branches of the family. All sources agree that Susannah Manuel (who was born in Lewisporte in 1832) definitely had a Beothuk mother.

This seems very possible indeed, as Shanawdithit (who died in 1829 and is often billed as the "last of the Beothuk") reported that a number of men and women (some 12 or 13 in all) from her tribe managed to escape when she was captured. Ingeborg Marshall in her excellent book, A History and Ethnography of the Beothuk, pp. 224-225, reports a number of sightings and incidents involving Beothuk in this region after 1829 - from 1834 to at least 1845, and there is a report that Beothuks "had lived in the watershed area of Bay St. George in the 1840s and 1850s and were said to have intermarried with the whites."

My mother and sister have paid to have DNA studies done and, while all the results are not back yet, it is unlikely they will "prove" much definitely either way - as there is only some DNA garnered from two stolen Beothuk skulls to compare it with - not enough for a proper sampling. Hopefully, though, they may give some supportive evidence. When and if any evidence is forthcoming from these studies I will certainly post it on this page.

While it is usual for material in the Wikipedia to require some well-referenced source for information such as this - it is my belief that, because so very little is known about the Beothuk people, whatever crumbs of information have survived are precious and should be recorded. The fact that a number oral stories and photos are the only "evidence" we have at the moment should, I believe, be of enough interest for a short entry with, of course, appropriate qualifications.

I would be very grateful to hear what other people think on this subject or if they have anything to add to these stories. Please reply on this page or, if you wish, contact me directly at: wynhill@bigpond.com Many thanks, John Hill 06:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

While it is interesting for a family to trace descent, that does not alter the fact that the ethnic Beothuk group, with its culture and language, no longer exists as a whole - that is the meaning of saying the group is "extinct". I don't think one family's descent has a place in the article. People do carry all kinds of ancestry. For instance, a while ago in England, they found that many contemporary males in Cheshire, England had Y-DNA linked to the 6,000-year-old "Cheshire Man", showing relative stability of population in the area. If a university undertook such a local study in Newfoundland, for instance, found persisting Beothuk genes, and published their results, such material would be valid for inclusion in Wikipedia.--Parkwells (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Murdered

Thanks again to another wandering Italian. Giovani Caboto and his imported Mikmak's, proceed to murder and starve the native population for the good of the foriegn country payings his wages. Think Columbus was bad. There are No more beothuks' left. 76.71.17.88 (talk) 06:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Perheps there are, at least some kind of ancestors. See here: Researchers turn over new Leif in Canadian Viking mystery --88.149.99.14 (talk) 07:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)