Talk:Ancient Macedonians

Macedonian's competed at Olympics as self-identifying Greeks

Nearly the entire section focuses on some minor point by Herodotus (regarding the legitimacy of whether Macedonians should be allowed to compete in the ancient Olympics) while ignoring the fact they competed as SELF-IDENTIFYING Greeks in those Olympics for centuries. The way it's currently written (undue emphasis) it's as if Ancient Macedonians weren't seen as Greeks when it should be saying the opposite if anything. Ancient Greeks (at least at the Olympics) considered ancient Macedonians Greek enough to compete.

Personally I think modern political views are tampering with ancient Macedonian articles(see name dispute). If self-identification is what matters most though, we should be rationally consistent and apply those same rules to ancient Macedonians as well.

e.g.

"Men of Athens, In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, " Histories", 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.134.31 (talk) 22:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Someone undid my edit twice suggesting the second time "this was still a claim about his own family, not about the whole nation". Nowhere did I suggest anything in my edit about whole nation. I simply made some minor edits to reduce undue emphasis. Macedonian's competing in the ancient Olympics (as self-identifying Greeks) is hardly a "con" argument against ancient Macedonians being Greeks. At the moment, the section in question is entirely focused on one passage by Herodotus questioning Alexander-meanwhile it glosses over centuries of Macedonian participation in the ancient Olympics as self-identifying Greeks? (e.g. some other notable Macedonians that competed in the Olympics as self-identifying Greeks-including several kings of Macedonia-names that used to be part of the section but were erased)

480 Boxing Theagenes Thasos, 472 Boys' Boxing Tellon Orestheia. 408 Tethrippon Archelaos (King), 380 Pankration Xenophon Aigai, 356 Horse Race Philip II (King), 320 Stadion Damasias Amphipolis, 304 Tethrippon Lampos Philippoi, 292 Stadion Antigonos, 268 Foals' Tethrippon Belestichos, 268 Stadion Seleukos, 264 Synoris Belestichos

Alexander was ultimately accepted as Greek (by other Greeks) to compete in events and called himself Greek (if primary sources are to be believed this is fact not modern nationalist sophistry). Putting aside all discussion of what the term "Greek" actually means (or various definitions of ethnicity for that matter), the fact that Alexander was originally challenged is no more proof that Macedonians weren't self-identifying Greeks any more than Obama being challenged by birthers should be spun as "proof" he isn't a self-identifying American. (imagine in 2000 years people claiming Obama wasn't a self-identifying American given similar reasoning)

In my opinion, it is far fetched that all those Macedonians would have been allowed to compete by Athenians, Corinthians, Spartans, et al in the Olympics as non-Greeks (since it would have been viewed as sacrilegious to their Gods). It would also have been a slap in their face to the subjects of Macedonian kings that their own leaders would claim to be part of some other ethnic group and compete at foreign events (consider if George Bush competed in a Mexican only sporting events or at the Olympics as a self-identifying Mexican under a Mexican flag to get a whiff of how extreme an assertion that would be)

As far as I know even the minority of scholars that argue Macedonians weren't originally ethnically Greek (i.e. they are are defining their ethnicity beyond simple self-identification)-mostly agree Macedonians were self-identifying Greeks by the Hellenistic period.

e.g

"We have now become accustomed to regarding Macedonians as northern Greeks and, in extreme cases, to hearing Alexander's conquests described as in essence Greek conquests. The former certainty became true in Greek consciousness in the course of the Hellenistic age; the latter may be argued to be true`ex post facto'." (Greeks and Macedonians -Studies in the History of Art - Badian)

Frankly, the whole section (and the current ancient Macedonian articles) seem to be undergoing a transformation lately-an over emphasis of passages that are seemingly intended to create distance between Macedonians and the rest of the Greek world (the above being an example). Unless there has been some major archeological discovery lately that prove ancient Macedonians weren't Greeks this strikes me as modern politics at work rather than an objective reporting of history. If on the one side some suggest the right to self-identification an absolute-doesn't it make sense that same reasoning should apply to ancient Macedonians that competed as self-identifying ethnic Greeks in the Olympics? Which way is it going to be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.140.227 (talk) 00:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

One sided introduction

Recent edits in the opening paragraph made it look totally definite about the much debated issue of the origin of the ancient Macedonians. They are described as a nation, meaning a distinct ethnic group conclusively separate from the Greek nation, which was hellenized at some time, meaning that they were definitely not Greeks. The previous version reflected more accurately the present scholarship. While Dbachmann's edits in the Ancient Macedonian language look more moderate and neutral, his edits in this article leave no space for doubt that they could have been of Greek origin as well. Was this the point of these edits? Who knows.. - Sthenel (talk) 23:34, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

That was indeed a strange edit by Dbachmann! I edited it as before. I agree with you, the "They became mostly Hellenized by the 4th century BC..." part is misleading and is also opposite to the sources provided, it needs to be changed. A Macedonian (talk) 00:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The part about them becoming Hellenized is definitely problematic, as it automatically implies they were not Hellenic (only non-Hellenic peoples could become Hellenized). I think it's best we leave it at "They came to belong to the Koine speaking Greek peoples by the 4th century BC" or however it is phrased. Athenean (talk) 00:37, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I shaped up the lead, hopefully in the spirit it was initially written. I was careful with the wording regarding their language and kept the "Greek tribe" at the start. Unfortunately, I do not have much free time this summer, but I would advise anyone interested or involved to stop occupying himself with the lead and start adding material regarding the people. Where is the information about the Macedonian tribes? Information about their archaic political system? Their judicial system? Their distinct traditions? The numerous personalities of Macedonian origin (military leaders, writers, artists)? It seems the whole article is revolving only about their ethnicity and this is really a shame, for it could be an otherwise very informative and valuable article, distinct from Macedon. GK (talk) 02:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

So, people complain that the lead shouldn't "look totally definite" in presenting only one position (evidently, the one you don't like), but then you change it to a version that does just that, and in the most unambiguous way possible – mysteriously, now the lead presents the position that you do like, without any hint at a problem? Man, you all know perfectly well that there is no consensus about this in scholarship, so just stop it. "A nation of classical antiquity", in this context, is a far superior version. Sthenel's complaints above are unfounded: "nation", in this context, of course doesn't represent the modern concept of the ethnic nation-state. It just signifies that it was a group with a certain political and cultural identity; it says nothing about the degree of affinity to other surrounding groups. As such it is just the neutral wording we need here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

FP, I clearly stated that I shaped up the EXISTING lead, which was a mess. I kept all the "debatable" parts to be debated as was the case before my involvement. I challenge you to compare the before and after of my editing and tell me where I "changed" it to a version that presents only one opinion. In contrast, I even removed some direct allegations, but I guess that your crusading makes you see nationalist enemies all around you... Did you even look at my changes or did you just stick to the "Greek tribe" part, which of course you have been debating for so long? GK (talk) 07:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Hedging is all well and good, except that neither the Greek POV version, nor the current version, actually do any hedging. The current version makes no mention at all of the Macedonians' ethnic and linguistic affiliation. I think a mention of said affiliations, properly hedged, is not inappropriate for the lead of this article. I propose modifying the final sentence of the lead to: "Though their linguistic and ethnic affiliation, whether Greek or otherwise, is not definitively known, it is accepted that by the late 4th century BC they had fully adopted the Koine Greek and integrated into the Greek world." Athenean (talk) 03:50, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The section on archaeological evidence also leads to premature conclusions. A few scraps of pottery and greek inscriptions barely enables us to make such blanket conclusions that society in upper Macedonia spoke Greek in the 13th century. Mycenaen pottery was also found as far as the Carpathian basin. Were the Otomanni's also Greek ? So either the editors are putting their own spin on the evidence at hand, or the sources provided - Encyclopedia Britannica and a Greek internet site - are of themselves overgeneralizing. in fact, the Grek female author of the article in question is clearly biased. She has reconstructed an entire history based on pottery finds. "Undoubtedly", she claims, the people responsible for introducing such pottery to Macedonia in the 13th century were the historical macedonians. She must have no archaeological training, otherwise she would realise that there were no Macedonians in the 13th century BC. On what basis does she conclude such an anachronistic statement (b) she must be incapable of explaining the movement of goods by other mechanisms other than migration - ie trade, cultural diffusion, mimicry, etc. Nor does it appear she has the otherwise well documented knowledge that, if we are going to make cultural analogies of the findings in Macedonia, that the artefacts found throught the Bronze and Iron Ages have predominantly a Thracian and / or Illyrian (Glasinac) provenance. The 'Hellenic' world barely extended north of Thessaly as of the mid 1st millenoum BC. Such premature and narrowly focused conclusions seriously undermine the validity and reliability of such an article, if it is even an article ? I don't think "Ageo-Balkan history" is even a propper journal (!)

Moreoever, again blanket statements like, by the 4th century macedonia was fully hellenized. how do we know ? ? A region which, today, despite the population exchanges, standardization of languge, propaganda, etc, which are associated with modern governmental systems, is still ethno-linguistically heterogeneous, would have been even more mixed 3, 000 years ago. it should clearly be stated that the Macedonian military and administrative system fully adapted the koine. We have no evidence about what every other common man, so it would be OR to place such blanket statements.

Hxseek (talk) 05:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Hxseek, first of all we do not really care what the people in the broader region spoke in the 13th century BC, because the Macedonians as a tribe/nation/state etc started being present/known/acknowledged etc sometime between the 10th and the 8th century. Secondly, the evidence that we have from 5th and 4th century Macedonians (not Paeonians, Bryges, Illyrians, Chalkidikans etc) is that they were fully hellenized. 99% of the epigraphical evidence is from commoners (and we are talking THOUSANDS of items) and NOT from aristocratic/military/religious sources. Stop trying to connect the Macedonians with all other people that ever lived in the Balcans 5 centuries before or 10 centuries after the Macedonian kingdom. Like it or not, this is what ALL historians agree on. The question for some is not whether they were hellenized by the 5th or 4th century but whether they belonged to the Greek world BEFORE that. GK (talk) 14:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, this very article includes 'evidence' of Greek pottery from the 13 th century in Macedonia, which has been sythesized by an editor as undoutable 'proof' of the presence of Greek-speakers as early as then. I am merely highlighting that such conclusion is a fallacy obviously constructed on the basis of an editors POV, in turn, based on a dubious source. So it is not me that's focussing on the 13th century.

Secondly, ALL historians do not agree on anything. The broad concensus of scholars is known to me, however, this gets presented in this article as bible without further eloboration as to the difficulties which historians., archaeologists and linguists really face when investigating peoples from prehistoric times.

Hxseek (talk) 03:19, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The text reads :

"In 19th century scholarship, some scholars argued that the Macedonians possibly had an Illyrian or Thracian rather than a Greek origin. Professor William Mitchell Ramsay considered the Macedonians as a tribe of Thrace, the land north-east of Greece, akin to the Thracians. George Rawlinson, stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not Paionians, Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.[15][16]

Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.[17] Systematic excavations at Aiani since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the 2nd millennium BC to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.[18][19] Found with Μycenaean sherds, they can be dated with certainty to the 14th century BC.[18][19] The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like Θέμιδα (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of Upper Macedonia spoke and wrote Greek before the 5th century BC.[18] Other scholars, such as Nicholas Hammond, argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.[20]"

If I read well, alternative theories are presented. Secondly, the presence of Greek elements in the region is discussed, which is logical, since the region where Macedon would be formed had Greek elements before the Macedonians, a fact many proponents of the alternative theories tend to conveniently ignore. The inscriptions discussed are not from the 13th century BC but much later, produced within Macedon. I give you that the sentence can be read as if these texts are from the second millennium. They are not. GK (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the entire article could flow better and be set out more academically. Rather than placing virtually the entire emphasis on historical accounts (incl participation in Hellenic events), all the linguistic, literary and archaeological evidence should be synthesized into an "ethnogenesis" section; as it is done in journals and books which deal with ancient peoples (an approach adopted in some of the better quality articles here on Wiki) Hxseek (talk) 11:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Athenean's latest edits

About the wording [1] ("Though their linguistic and ethnic affiliation, whether Greek or otherwise, is not definitively known, it is accepted that by the late 4th century BC they had fully adopted the Koine Greek and integrated into the Greek world") – I'm in fact not quite happy with this, because the "though" implies there is some logical relation between these two statements – as if a possible lack of Greek affiliation before the 4th cent. was somehow "balanced out" by the fact of their later assimilation. There is no such link between these statements. They are entirely independent of each other and belong to quite different levels. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. How about: "Their lingustic....known; however, it is accepted...."? Athenean (talk) 18:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Same thing: "however" implies the same link as "though" does. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:39, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't have any problem removing the "however" and splitting into two sentences. Athenean (talk) 18:54, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Vergina (aigai) - Ancient macedonian names

Hello to all,

I was fortunate enough to visit the ancient macedonian royal tombs at vergina this summer, and I just can' t seem to reconciliate what I have seen there with what is being discussed in all ancient macedonia related articles in wikipedia (or elsewhere!).

Other than the royal tombs, numerous funerary steles where found (according to the archeologists who discovered all that, ancient macedonians considered it an honour to be buried next their kings which explains these numerous funerary steles). On these steles, one can read the names of the dead, and all names are greek. Moreover, some steles had a little "texto" if I may call it so, also in greek.. Also, I have read a couple of books on ancient macedonia ( in french and english), where they are listed as dorian greeks..

It is in fact something that I have never been able to understand, why so much doubt on the fact they were a greek tribe, since even before their supposed hellenisation, they bore greek names?

I have read numerous explanation none of them valid: 1) they were in antagonism with the southern greek city states ( yes but so were all greek city states beetween them)

2) they had a different political structure, namely a kingdom-state (yes, but so did other city states, some where democracies, other had kings, other had tyrants, and even a same city state would at different chronologies change it s political system from oligarchy to democracy..)

3) they were seen as barbarians by some southern greeks (yes, but so were the epirotes, the aeolians of lemnos, or even the spartans, to some athenians.

4) they did not have philisophers, great sculptors or poets caracteristic of ancient classical greece (yes, but neither did sparta ever produce such things)

Anyway, can someone explain to me what is the real reason why ancient macedonians cannot be understood as an ancient greek tribe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.165.193.73 (talk) 15:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The only problem I see with this is that trying to label ancient peoples into discreet sub-categories is based on a false logic that people in 300 BC were nations in the same sense that Greeks, or Iranians, or Germans are nations today, ie with definable borders, standard language, and a politically established culture. Clearly, they did not back then. Whilst Macedonian contains 1/3 Greek words, 1.3 are entirely non-Greek, whilst others are possibly related to Greek. There is then the differences in societal organization, a more archaic form or kinship, etc, which more approximated the Illyrian type tribes to north of GReece propper. Then there is clear archaeological documentation that Macedonia has always been a cultural cross roads, receiving influences from all corners of the Balkans and beyond.

This is the problem with wanting to simply say that they were Greek, or were not "Greek" prior to 5th cenutry, because it attempts to pidgeon hole many facets of their origins, language, culture, social relations, into a a false dichotomy.

However, what ultimately matters is how they saw themselves and how other saw them. Clearly, they aspired a Hellenic identity. However, does this mean "Greek" in the modern day sense of the word? one could argue NO. In the same way that many people of diverse origins were later considered "ROman", ie part of the civilied world and the cultural codes it upheld, as opposed to 'barbarians' Hxseek (talk) 10:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This question has nothing to do with the article. No matter what arguments you may find, there are scholars, albeit a minority, who suggest that the Macedonians were a distinct ethnos from the rest of the Hellenes up to the 5th or early 4th century. Most agree that they did belong to what is known as the Greek community of tribes. Both of these opinions are presented. You have to understand that even the proponents of the Macedonian's Greekness, as am I, do not dispute the existence of these theories, advocated by well-known scholars and not nationalist charlatans, but try to find the correct wording to present both theories in a way proportionate to the degree of academic consensus. GK (talk) 13:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, these theories are stated. However, i do not see exaclty why a discussion of what it meant to be a "Hellene" has nothing to do with this article. Is it not our duty, as perhaps more informed editors, to clarify this, so that others more inclined to nationalist-derived arguements better understand the the mattters at hand, thus obviate their need to interject unneccesarily Hxseek (talk) 07:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not. This is what we have to do in the appropriate article and not here. You know I disagree with your views and I would not like to have to again enter a discussion about issues that have nothing to do with this article. If someone wants to find out what a Hellene is or was, he can look it up or strike a discussion in the appropriate articles with acknowledged scientific arguments and bibliography. If someone wants to make a point because he truly thinks so, because he has heard so and because his parents told him, he is a troll and we shouldn't feed him. GK (talk) 11:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's your opinion. It is not out of place to clarify definitions and contextualize meaning. Hxseek (talk) 08:30, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Lead

First, I have to say that I am completely against these peculiar efforts to show the affiliation of the Ancient Macedonians with the Greek ethnos in general as they were developing through the past month. Let's see what I wrote, what FP's corrections and comments are and whether we can work along these lines to produce an exact and coherent text :

I wrote :

"It is generally accepted that the Ancient Macedonians consisted a Greek ethnos throughout their history, a fact disputed by certain scholars, who propose that they had formed a distinct nation before they were linguistically and culturally fully integrated into the Greek world by the 5th or 4th century BC."

FP commented :

"if "some" (notable) scholars "dispute" this, it's not "generally accepted", and not a "fact"."

and wrote :

"While many authors regard the Ancient Macedonians as a Greek ethnos throughout their history, some scholars propose that they had formed a distinct nation before they were linguistically and culturally fully integrated into the Greek world by the 5th or 4th century BC."

First we have to present the theory that prevails nowadays and we all know that this theory is supported by the overwhelming majority of scholars in universities and museums, as well as "authors". To this purpose I said "It is generally accepted", which clearly means that "most by far (scholars, authors etc) believe" I maintain that if "some scholars dispute this" then this is the expression we should use. If they didn't we would simply write "It is accepted", without the "generally". Also, a "fact" can be something that is not a universal truth. If I dispute a fact, then this does not make it less of a fat even if I am right. So, I suggest that my wording was clear and describes the situation well and with due weight on every aspect, it is non aggressive and to the point.

FP's corrections, to my mind, have weaknesses. Both words in "Many authors" can be misleading. "Many" we use to denote a number and not a proportion, so "Many" could be 6-10 scholars out of 100.000. Also, "authors" is too general and bears no academic value. What do we care what authors have to say? It is the words of scholars we are to use. The use of the word "fact" I will not insist upon. It is to me of low importance and only brought it in to make a contrast by using the word "dispute", which FP does not use. No problem with that. So, how about :

"It is generally accepted that the Ancient Macedonians consisted a Greek ethnos throughout their history, although some scholars propose that they had formed a distinct nation before they were linguistically and culturally fully integrated into the Greek world by the 5th or 4th century BC." ?

GK (talk) 08:44, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

No, sorry. "Generally accepted" has a very clear, very strong meaning: it entails that any opposing viewpoints are negligible. Which, in this case, they clearly are not. About the other points: "many" is just that, "many", relative (obviously) to the number of competent authors who have commented on this issue. Which is just right here. And in my wording the contrast between "many" and "some" already concedes a numeric preponderance (which, incidentally, I'm not even certain about, but I'll let that pass.) And "authors", in academic parlance, means exactly what is meant here: people who have contributed to the pertinent academic discourse on this matter. I don't think people would misunderstand it as "novelists", "poets" or whatever in this context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. "It is generally accepted" does not entail any overwhelming meaning. Nor does it imply that other opinions are "negligible". "It is universally accepted" does mean all the things you say. Exactly as "Tom is a generally quiet boy" does not mean that Tom is always quiet... In this case, "generally" is the correct word. It is not strong and it gives an amount of weight appropriate to the situation, which is that the (great) majority of scholars and scholarly institutions recognize that Ancient Macedonians were indeed a clear part of the Greek ethnos. Anyways, I don't have a problem with using another expression as long as it makes it clear that it is the majority of the scholarly world that accepts opinion A. "Many" does not contrast with "some" as you think it does. "Many authors maintain that the Earth is hollow" is a correct sentence as well. There are at least 30 such authors who have maintained such theories. "Many" allows for other opinions to have a bigger support. "Authors" are also authors of historical books and contributors to historical magazines who have no proof whatsoever of their expertise on the matter.

Your proposal is :

Many authors assume that the Ancient Macedonians were a Greek ethnos throughout their history, although some scholars propose that they had formed a distinct nation before they were linguistically and culturally fully integrated into the Greek world by the 5th or 4th century BC.

The word "assume" means "to accept without verification or proof" which is clearly degrading and wrong. So, since you do not dispute the fact that it is the majority of scholars who agree with opinion A, I would propose :

"Most scholars propose that the Ancient Macedonians were a Greek ethnos throughout their history, although some have suggested that they had formed a distinct nation before they were linguistically and culturally fully integrated into the Greek world by the 5th or 4th century BC." GK (talk) 10:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable sentence, although I maintain we should use Hellenistic given it's more appropriate for the period in question Hxseek (talk) 08:33, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

We cannot use "hellenistic" in this sentence. Hellenistic is a term coined to describe the culture developed and the era after Alexander III while here we are talking about the period between the 8th or 7th century and 5th or 4th BC.. I think that it presents both sides properly and respectfully. I have no problem with "concur" of course. GK (talk) 10:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

|The slight problem I have identified, however, is that these "most scholars" which connect the Macedonians as being Greek simply mention this as a sweeping categorization. Ie many of the sources noted in footnote 16 simple state something like 'the Macedonians were a Greek tribe". It is only those which actually go into the issue on a deeper level which highlight that the issue is not so straightforward. Obviously Hammond, but also Mallory, amongst others. So if we look at the provided references accurately, the converse might be true. Most scholars who have actually studied their origins, rather than mentioned a Greek-Macedonian link passingly (as part of a general history of macedonia or Alexander, etc), actually express reservations rather than confidence about the nature of Macedonian civilization prior to the 5th century BC. Hxseek (talk) 07:32, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Hxseek that the question is not so clear cut. The book sources specialized in language are very reserved in favoring any of the hypothesis. They just leave all the options opened because there are no sufficient data. None denies that in 4th century koine greek was in use, but if another non-greek language was in use before ..... do the math yourselves. Aigest (talk) 09:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Personal opinions are personal. The sentence presents both theories with respect and due weight. What you claim Aigest is clearly put : "although some have suggested that they had formed a distinct nation before they were linguistically and culturally fully integrated into the Greek world by the 5th or 4th century BC." What Hexseek is suggesting is out of the scope of the sentence, since what no one doubts here is that "Most scholars propose that the Ancient Macedonians were a Greek ethnos throughout their history". Hxseek says "It is only those which actually go into the issue on a deeper level which highlight that the issue is not so straightforward." which describes any in depth work on every nation/tribe/people in the Balkans, Europe, Asia Minor...the world. The conclusions are more or less straightforward regarding the "ethnicity" of the ancient Macedonians as is generally accepted by the world's scholarly institutions BUT there are very competent and acknowledged voices proposing other theories and ways to approach the issue. Who is more or less academic is not for us to judge. I hope that we will let this sentence be and put this matter behind us focusing on improving the article. What was always the problem was a general lack of respect to what we did not agree to and this attitude should stop if we are to ever do something here that will last. When the academic community embraces as a whole the idea that there can be no purity in nations and as such the whole notion of nations should be discarded as a self-proclaimed or imposed illusion, then we may rethink our position about this and any other article that describes any group of people. I would not like us to again engage in endless theoretical discussions about the details of the issue, we should only accept the current consensus, whether we agree with it or not, whether we regard some of the academics (those we each agree with) more competent and scholarly than the others (we do not agree with) and put it in words in a respectful and as neutral as possible manner. I hope that this sentence achieves this goal. In the article we can present all theories in more detail but I hope laconically and in a manner that will not shift the interest from the people to the dispute. For example, the whole chapters about the participation of the Macedonians in the Olympics and those about the "ancient sources" should go. They only serve as an argument for or against the ethnic affiliation of the Macedonians to the Greeks and are of very little value to understanding the ancient Macedonians. Some of them (maybe a list of notable personnas and a list of sources without pinpointing certain texts) should be incorporated someplace in the end and all comments as for the Macedonians' Greekness or non-Greekness should be done away with. Right now the article looks like a forum thread. GK (talk) 10:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that personal opinions are personal, however I was noticing to you guys that in linguistic field, there is no majority of linguists whom affiliate Ancient Macedonian with any other language whatsoever. Or better said, the majority of the linguists don't agree in the issue. Before replying take a look at this chapter with a broad and multiple POV discussions on the subject. From what I see above you are pushing the things into "majority" area, while Hxseek was being more neutral. From what I know from linguistic field, I can say that his position is more based than yours. If you find the above author (Gandeto) biased and not expert in linguistic, I wish to bring your attention that apart Boardman(CH historian) Mallory (linguist) Woodard (linguist) which state that no conclusion can be done on ancient macedonian language, there is also another scholar Adrados (linguist) which says that "from this point on it is generally believed that we are dealing with a language that is different from Greek.". I am not saying that his opinion is right or wrong, but we can see clearly that linguistically speaking the situation is very different from GK opinion. Aigest (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Gandeto is a polemicist pamphleteer writting in a self-published book. It is telling of the paucity of your sources that you would cite him.--Anothroskon (talk) 14:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

JS Gandeto is actually a psycologist aka Josif Grezlovski ... A Macedonian (talk) 03:02, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I also have to agree that your choice of examples was rather poor. I will say that this should not be another "my sources vs your sources" game nor do I want to engage in a discussion about this (believe me, this topic has been exhaustingly discussed and if you need you could look it up in the archives). The fact that officially, ancient Macedonian is classified as a Hellenic language along with Greek is proof enough that the majority of linguists and historians view it as a close sibling to say the least. And of course, our focus here is not the ancient Macedonian language but the people GK (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you – again? – use the word "officially" in this context is proof enough that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to assessing academic consensus. Sorry for being blunt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:13, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Gandeto was an illustration of a different POV if you didn't get it. Now let me get this straight. Do you consider Bosworth, Mallory, Woodard and Adrados poor sources?! What do you think is the essence of their claims? Aigest (talk) 07:17, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you - again? - do your best to sabotage an effort to produce the compilation of an acceptable lead in articles that have to do with ancient Macedonia comes as no surprise to me. Your lack of understanding of what certain English words mean should make you more careful instead of more arrogant, FP. I have absolutely no idea of what I am talking about because I used the word "officially"? Did you think that officially only has to do with states only? Check out official first and then tell me whether that http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/get-familyid.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=IEG is or is not an official classification of the ancient Macedonian language compiled by the Institute for Language Information and Technology, an autonomous research center at EMU. What did you think? That I meant officially acknowledged by whom? By the EU? The UN? The US? Greece? RoMacedonia? Should I again assume (by now I hope you know what this word means at least) good intention on your part? It is really interesting the way you attack me for using a word you thought I used wrongly and let arguments uncommented that have nothing to do with the issue (the people), some of which are taken from books of acknowledged ultra-nationalist sources, while I, the "ignorant nationalist" (I guess), tried to just let it go and get back to the issue. A question like "officially classified by whom?" would have sufficed and would be very welcome and justified, since I did not give any more information but I guess that personal attacks work better for you. Sorry for being blunt. So, what is your problem yet again? Do you now doubt that it is the majority of scholars and scholarly institutions who classify the ancient Macedonians as a Greek people? Do you think that theory B amasses more support? Or is it just that you wish to say something without saying anything? GK (talk) 14:38, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

"Official" means: "published, done or approved by someone in authority", or "given a special position of importance by an organization" (Collins Cobuild Dictionary). The crucial term is "authority". In academic life, nobody has the authority to "officially" pass judgment on a controversial issue, and nobody in their right mind would ever pretend that's what they were doing. Nobody could possibly speak from such a position of authority conveyed by an organization, because there are no organisations whose business it is to convey such authority on anybody or anything. Academic organizations such as Linguistlist are not in the business of having opinions, and therefore nobody and nothing could possibly pronounce an opinion on an academic issue officially in their name. Got it now? The list you refer to is an entirely informal, anonymously compiled resource, where somebody has tried to pull together data from whatever sources they felt most appropriate and cram it into a uniform scheme, for purely practical reasons, and they had to fit in XMK somewhere. The idea that by doing this they were making an "official" pronouncment on an open academic question, which is an object of ongoing normal debate, is just mind-boggling.

BTW, I didn't ask you what you were referring to, because I already knew. We've been through this before. That's why I'm so impatient with you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

so... according to you, this list (http://linguistlist.org/about.cfm) (http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&CFTREEITEMKEY=xmk+++++++++++++++) is the unsigned work of some unnamed person, maybe even a student of sorts or even an amateur linguist or electric engineer (this is not how they describe it of course, but maybe you haven't really looked through the site?), which is kindly hosted by the said institution, supported by SIL International (http://www.sil.org/) (http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=xmk). Without an effort to convey judgment as to the credentials or quality of the said institution, I am no linguist myself and I really do not personally know the people, they have made a darn good job at making it clear that what they publish reflects their institution's position. On the other hand, since I have never exchanged a word with them they may as well have just sought to find a place to put xmk and that's about it. But, in this case, you had better take it out on them and not me. By the way, I contacted them, and I hope that they will answer back. If they do accept that the list only reflects the position of a certain editor and that they do not hold any academic responsibility as an institution for the content of the list I will not use the word "officially" again regarding the said list. Should they answer though, that they accept academic responsibility then the word "official" is correctly used, since they will have "officially" AS AN INSTITUTION voiced an opinion. Happy? GK (talk) 17:55, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Heheh. I just had a look at what the Linguistlist guys say about the sources they use. [2] Guess what their principal source was for their treatment of (modern) Greek? Me. (or, to be fair, our learned friend Pitichinaccio.) Other than that, the only part of the sources listed for their "composite tree" that would obviously have gone into the Greek/Macedonian part would seem to be Katičić (highly relevant, of course), and a bunch of unnamed "Multiple sources Integrated by The LINGUIST List." These guys are citing Wikipedia as their source!. Grin. (Oh, and, by the way, if you continue to insist on calling this thing an "official" whatever, don't forget to summarise its content correctly: if it is "officially" decreeing anything, it is that Macedonian was not Greek.) Interestingly, they also quote Bloomfield's classification, as an alternative tree, where Macedonian stands completely alone [3]. (Note: don't get me wrong, the Linguistlist compilers are good guys®, and it's a highly useful resource, for what it's worth.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, point made. If the same organization presents 2 trees then they most possibly do not have an "official" opinion on the matter. I stand corrected and hope that their reply will not change that. They give a sizable list of sources, but I will not go through them. Again I am content that the tree presenting xmk as a separate language is only given by Bloomberg, while their "composite tree" boasts a much more extensive base of bibliography. I also clearly stated that "that ancient Macedonian is classified as a Hellenic language along with Greek is proof enough that the majority of linguists and historians view it as a close sibling to say the least.", so your second point I think is invalid. I believe I was very clear on that. GK (talk) 09:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Aigest, we have already established that there are scholars who doubt the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians prior to the 4th or 5th century. We also know that there are scholars who express doubts on whether the ancient Macedonian language was Greek (as is the majority of your examples) and those who maintain that it certainly was not Greek, as is the case with this Gandeto guy, who is not a POV you should have presented unless you did not know who it was, which is understandable. It is as if Greeks tried to cite the authors of their ultra-nationalistic sites as "just a point of view". First, we are not discussing language here, you should make your comments in the appropriate article, not here. Secondly, asking us to give our opinion on your "sources" will not lead anywhere since we know their POV and we have already classified it. The only goal such a discussion would achieve would be to again see long lists of scholars and institutions who support that ancient Macedonian was Greek and other (always less extensive but sizable) lists of scholars who support that ancient Macedonian was probably Greek but we cannot be conclusive, more or less what we can say about most extinct languages we have only sparse evidence we can with certainty attribute to them. Lastly we also would see some lists (even less extensive) of scholars who claim that ancient Macedonian was not Greek but more akin to Illyrian (I suspect that this is your position), Thracian or, in some really extreme cases, even Slavic. The question here is NOT whether the Macedonians spoke Greek or not but whether at least 51% of scholars and scholarly institutions maintain that they were a Greek people. Even those who support that they most probably were a Greek people (or in your case that they most probably spoke a Greek dialect) fall in this category, since they give a probability of more than 50% that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek people (or spoke Greek respectively). So, again, do you people, and I do not mean only Aigest, REALLY doubt that it is the majority of scholars and scholarly institutions (and I am not even saying "vast" or "large" majority as many Greeks would feel better with) who claim that the ancient Macedonians were (or most probably were) a Greek ethnos? GK (talk) 14:55, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

@GK. I am not favoring neither of hypotheses already expressed. I am just saying that the authors I mentioned above remain skeptical about the Ancient Macedonian language. Illyrian, Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian, Pelasgian, Hellenic etc all are unprovable hypotheses, because we have too few data. From the language rules ph->p, dh->d bh->b etc, Ancient Macedonian is connected with the Old Balkan languages of Thracian, Illyrian, Dacian but not with Greek which has another rule on these consonants; on the other hand there are data linking it with Greek, (names, writings etc). Since the data are so few and very contradictory, the expert remain skeptical. This is the state of art of Ancient Macedonian language for the moment. Aigest (talk) 14:13, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

No. That is not what I'm doubting. The way it was worded - ie throughout their history - is , with no offence, slightly weasal. Because the sources which are later presented in support of such a statement actually do not go into such discussion. Any book that does objectively states that we do not really know much about 7th century Mcaedonians.

The problem will never be solved if we do not rapidly upgrade our way of thinking and continue attempting to sheepishly apply macroethonyms such as "Greek", "Thracian", "Celtic", etc, etc; labels which do not do justice to the reality of language shift, indentity adoption, fluidity of ethnicity, etc which has always occurred amongst human beings. That you, GK, personally do not "believe" in this is, I'm afraid, a shame, coz you appear to otherwise be an educated guy. Not to altogether dismiss 'traditional' theories, but traditionalism is about 4 decades out of date, and has obviously failed miserably at explaining the full picture of how peoples came to be. This does not change the fact that Alexander spoke GReek and saw himself as a Greek, so you needn't worry about blatant revisionism Hxseek (talk) 07:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

with "throughout their history" I mean from the day that the Macedonian state was "officially" established. This might be sometime during the 10th, 9th or 8th century BC. Before that it and into the 2nd, 3rd or 15th millennium BC of course it is of no concern to us. As for the fluidity of ethnicity and identity adoption, don't get me wrong, in theory it is very appealing and sometimes useful to use as an argument but as a theory it does not elliminate the need/practice to classify peoples (culturally, linguistically etc) nor does it negate the fact that the (vast) majority of scholars does it too. You seem to be concerned with eras much older than the specific timelines we occupy ourselves with here. We are talking 2-4 centuries long. The process you are advocating is what transformed the non-Greek Macedonians to Greeks according to the proponents of theory B and certainly what transformed the various pre-Greek tribes into Greeks. Of course a people can change, be amalgamated or even sucked into another culture but for some reason this debate exists and as long as we do not find a suitable, respectable and as neutral as possible description, all kinds of editors will understandably barge in and destroy the article. My efforts actually are to delete all this useless and irrelevant information in the article which only serve to "prove" that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. I think we all agree that the article now looks like a forum thread. If we clearly explain the situation in one sentence then we will at last be free to make it an informative article about the people. GK (talk) 09:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not referring to the second millenium, but as late as the 6th century BC ! Ofcourse some classification is required, don't get me wrong, otherwise it gets too 'airy-fairy', but then if we are going to classify we still need to take all components in in due consideration. My intention is not to turn this into an article on thoeretical frameworks of ethnology, but i think an explanatory sentence here or there is not inappropriate Hxseek (talk) 09:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Future could you please re-state your objections and proposals along with any supporting sources? We need to have excerpts in-context from the relevant sources to decide how to proceed. But most of all we need to be clear on what precisely the disagreement is about.--Anothroskon (talk) 10:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

What I was discussing above was not so much a disagreement about any particular piece of wording in the article, but about GK's use of a faulty argument here on the talkpage. The more general problem I have with the actual wording is, I guess, mainly that it still presents the whole issue as if it was a dichotomy: they either "were", or "were not", "Greek". Presented this way, both of these (alleged) positions presuppose that there is such a thing as an objective property of "Greekness", which objectively either applies or doesn't apply to them. But this is exactly the misunderstanding at the basis of the whole nationalist logic that distorts this debate so much in popular perception. Our best specialised sources (including e.g. Borza) simply do not frame the issue in these terms. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:19, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what I have been trying to say, F.P. ! If we look at their language, customs, organization, way of life, and the way they were seen etc, we would see features of both Hellenes and barbaroi. That is why we cannot say either A or B, and that is why ancient sources themselves were sometimes at odds as to the Greekness of the Macedonians (- something which appears to be continuously and intentionally neglected or removed from the 'ancient sources' section on this article - ie Thuclydies and Demosthenes)

I am working on a draft intro ethnology section. I will submit it on T.P. soon, I hope 152.76.1.243 Hxseek (talk) 21:33, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Everyone says A, B or maybe A or maybe B. Saying "none of the above" is not an option. There is no nationalistic approach on the subject, just opinions and theories. The Spartans had many "barbaric" customs and of course were called "barbarians" more often than the Macedonians, as were the Athenians. This has nothing to do with what we have to write. All this hiding behind our finger is really strange. If you people agree with what I have proposed then what the heck is the purpose of raising nationalistic arguments any more? So, FP, if you do not object to the wording of the lead, can we just go on with reshaping this article? I still have seen no one except Hxseek commenting on what I have proposed about deleting the whole article and start adding real information. Please, STOP trying to again transform all this into a sharade of endless arguments. The fact that I do not yet answer to the scholarly provocations is because I want to move on and stop arguing about things which are mainly irrelative to the article. As to an objective property of "Greekness" it is not what is or should be discussed and FP, you know that this comment is out of context here as was your selective attack on me. I surely do not trust your scholarly self reached opinions and you do not trust mine, so CAN WE PLEASE MOVE ON? Do we have a sentence that pretty much summarizes the situation so that we do not have to again deal with this issue? GK (talk) 22:06, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

GK, I am willing to work with you, however, you need to open your mind, so we can put this 'ethnicity' business to rest. However, in order for us to move on, you have to become familiar yourself with modern anthropological theories. Read Barthsl works on ethnicity, Renfrew's critique on language-based ethnicity and so-called Urheimats, etc, and come to grips that ethnicity is a tool of political and ecnomic factors, and is thereby complex, often multi-levelled, and liable to change. When you have done so, you will realize what I am trying to say and look past the fact that I am Slav who is merely trying to undermine Greek glory Hxseek (talk) 11:39, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Hxseek, when you produce some specific study based on any of these theories regarding the ancient Macedonians then we can also include it in the article. Synthesizing theories in order to make our own conclusions is not what we are supposed to do. I want to say LESS about the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, not more. This is why I suggest we present both theories in a single line and move on. This is not a study about general anthropological theories regarding ethnogenesis. This is an article about a specific people with hundreds of books and studies as references. All these arguments about how complex the whole issue is is not our scope. The same applies to any other people and any other process of ethnogenesis. Maybe you should write an appropriate article presenting these theories and not want to apply them in specific articles about specific people as original research. Whatever these books say about the Macedonians we may include if we see fit. This has nothing to do with Greek glory. If I wanted to do that I would suggest we leave the article as is, not change it. So, reading Barthsl and Renfrew is helpful, but unless they have occupied themselves with the specific issue, then we cannot include their opinions/theories in the article. What I am saying is that you make efforts to produce your own theory based on the writings of those or any other scholars. This of course is not objective and will never be accepted by those who will not like your personal conclusions. GK (talk) 13:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I suppose you're right about that, GK. We ofcourse should stick to the topic at hand and not get too general and discussion oriented. However, at the same time, we should not shy away from some discussion, especially when there are works which discuss the issue specifically about Macedonians. We should not shy away from it because of the controversy associated with modern political issues, but study it becuase it is interesting in itself. There is nothing wrong with this, it is not engaging in 'racialism' or what have you. the identity of Macedonians was shaped by a multitude of factors, and I will include this as discussed by some recent very good scholarly works. Hxseek (talk) 00:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Content

The whole origins section is awkward and out of scope. Both the "ancient sources" and the "participation in panhellenic events" sections should go. I propose that for starters we direct this section to Ancient Macedonia - Early history and legends. The atticization section also is meaningless, since it talks about language and attraction of Greek minds, which also has nothing to do with the Macedonians... Actually the whole article is crappy... I have always been a proponent that it should not be merged with Ancient Macedonia but it needs to be completely redone. I suggest that we start from scratch. Completely erase everything, have a good lead as start and start adding sections, even with very poor content at first. We should not concentrate on the ultimate question so that we are not thrown off track and start adding material that has to do with the Macedonians :

1. Appearance in History

2. Tribes

3. Culture

4. Traditions

5. Religion

6. Expansion of the Macedonian identity (conquests and macedonization of certain non-Macedonian cities within Macedon)

7. History of Migration (in Hellenistic times)

and anything else you would like to add, like funerary customs, inventions, famous artists, writers etc. I need you guys to agree with the almost total deletion of the contents in this article if we are to make something good out of it without endless reversions and empty debates as to the Greekness or not of the ancient Macedonians.

GK (talk) 15:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC) 5.

I agree, like i said earlier, we need to synthesie all the evidence to construct a decent ethnology section, ie include historical accounts, archaeological finds, linguistic evidence, customs, etc. Becuase all these things are reflective of their ethnicity and identity. And yes, we should not focus on whether they are A or B Hxseek (talk) 07:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I have ordered a few good books, hope to come in next few weeks. I will chew through them Hxseek (talk) 11:46, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

-> There is a promising new book about Ancient Macedonia to be released in Dec 2010. It looks to be quite useful. Should we postpone our re-do here until it is released, so that we may reference it ? Hxseek (talk) 10:20, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation of the term 'Ancient Macedonians'

Either this article needs Disambiguation, or portion of initial paragraph of the article should inform the reader that this article does not refer to the history of the people of the modern 'Republic of Macedonia'... There is much confusion about this on wikipedia !!

This situation is unique on wikipedia because today there are unfortunately two cultural groups who call themselves 'Macedonians'. This confuses people because when they read ancient sources they might think they are referring to the ancestors of the slavic people who make up the modern day Republic of Macedonia (RoM), when infact, they are referring to the ancestors of the Greek Macedonians who live in Modern day Greece.

Sadly due to this confusion, many people do not know that there are Greek Macedonians, and Slavic Macedonians (who live in the 'Republic of Macedonia) are different peoples and cultures.

For example, If I were to read about the 'Ancient Egyptian' people, I would assume that I would be reading about the ancient peoples who make up the cultural and historic background of the Modern day Egyptians living in the same geographical area. (i.e. the people who built the pyramids)

Imagine if the article was about a small town in Sudan called 'Egypt' that had nothing to do with what I was looking for!? This would require disambiguation, either to say 'This article is about the Ancient People of the small town of Egypt, Sudan' with disambiguation pointing to 'Ancient Egyptians', or vice versa.

If I am modern day Slavic Macedonian, and I come to this Article, I am very shocked to find that it is NOT talking about my country and my people. My children will come here to read about their country and slavic heritage, but they will find an article discussing different people culturally, from a different geographical area, and a different time period. it is in fact talking about the Ancient Greeks Macedonians!

I want to know about the Ancient Slavic Macedonians from the Modern day RoM so that my children can find out the truth about their slavic heritage. We either must have disambiguation, or some paragraph describing that this article does not describe the ancestors of the slavic modern day macedonians. Because in accordance with wikipedia rules, when two different articles share the same name, there must be disambiguation.

Should I create another article called 'Ancient Macedonians' myself, and declare that is is discussing the ancestors of the modern RoM? And then there will be a disambiguation page?

or should this article just be edited to eradicate any confusion?

I propose either A) 'The Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient Greek people inhabiting the alluvial plain around the rivers Haliacmon and lower Axius in the northeastern part of the Greek peninsula.'

or B) The Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient people inhabiting the alluvial plain around the rivers Haliacmon and lower Axius in the northeastern part of the Greek peninsula, not to be confused with ancestors of todays Slavic Republic of Macedonia'

This way the reader knows immediately which 'Ancient Macedonians' the article is talking about. It is very important to resolve this ambiguous issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.149.42 (talk) 09:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

About the unscientific allegations that the ancient Macedonians of Alexander's time were not Greeks please see the opinion of hundreds of international scholars here.

About the unscientific allegations that the ancient Macedonians of Alexander's time were not Greeks please see the opinion of hundreds of international scholars who wrote a letter to President Barack Obama regarding the issue.

Can someone still explain why this article is lacking the term 'greek' people in the opening line?

http://macedonia-evidence.org

"Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc. "

NAME TITLE INSTITUTION

Anagnostis P. Agelarakis, Professor of Anthropology, Adelphi University (USA) Ioannis M. Akamatis, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Thessaloniki (Greece) June W. Allison, Professor Emerita, Department of Greek and Latin, The Ohio State University (USA) Georgios Anagnostopoulos, Professor of Philosophy, University of California-San Diego (USA) Mariana Anagnostopoulos, Assistant Professor of Philosophy, California State University, Fresno (USA) Ronnie Ancona, Professor of Classics, Hunter College and The Graduate Center, CUNY (USA) John P. Anton, Distinguished Professor of Greek Philosophy and Culture University of South Florida (USA) Dr. Norman George Ashton, Senior Honorary Research Fellow, The University of Western Australia (Australia) Lucia Athanassaki, Associate Professor of Classical Philology, University of Crete (Greece) Effie F. Athanassopoulos, Associate Professor Anthropology and Classics, University of Nebraska-Lincoln (USA) Harry C. Avery, Professor of Classics, University of Pittsburgh (USA) Dr. Dirk Backendorf. Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur Mainz (Germany) Elizabeth C. Banks, Associate Professor of Classics (ret.), University of Kansas (USA) Leonidas Bargeliotes, Emeritus Professor of Philosophy, University of Athens, President of the Olympic Center for Philosophy and Culture (Greece) Alice Bencivenni, Ricercatore di Storia Greca, Università di Bologna (Italy) David L. Berkey, Assistant Professor of History, California State University, Fresno (USA) Luigi Beschi, professore emerito di Archeologia Classica, Università di Firenze (Italy) Josine H. Blok, professor of Ancient History and Classical Civilization, Utrecht University (The Netherlands) Alan Boegehold, Emeritus Professor of Classics, Brown University (USA) Efrosyni Boutsikas, Lecturer of Classical Archaeology, University of Kent (UK) Ewen Bowie, Emeritus Fellow, Corpus Christi College, Oxford (UK) Keith Bradley, Eli J. and Helen Shaheen Professor of Classics, Concurrent Professor of History, University of Notre Dame (USA) Kostas Buraselis, Professor of Ancient History, University of Athens (Greece) Stanley M. Burstein, Professor Emeritus, California State University, Los Angeles (USA) Francis Cairns, Professor of Classical Languages, The Florida State University (USA) John McK. Camp II, Agora Excavations and Professor of Archaeology, ASCSA, Athens (Greece) David A. Campbell, Emeritus Professor of Classics. University of Victoria, B.C. (Canada) Paul Cartledge, A.G. Leventis Professor of Greek Culture, University of Cambridge (UK) Paavo Castren, Professor of Classical Philology Emeritus, University of Helsinki (Finland) William Cavanagh, Professor of Aegean Prehistory, University of Nottingham (UK) Angelos Chaniotis, Professor, Senior Research Fellow, All Souls College, Oxford (UK) Paul Christesen, Professor of Ancient Greek History, Dartmouth College (USA) James J. Clauss, Professor of Classics, University of Washington (USA) Ada Cohen, Associate Professor of Art History, Dartmouth College (USA) Randall M. Colaizzi, Lecturer in Classical Studies, University of Massachusetts-Boston (USA) Kathleen M. Coleman, Professor of Latin, Harvard University (USA) Rev. Dr. Demetrios J Constantelos, Charles Cooper Townsend Professor of Ancient and Byzantine history, Emeritus; Distinguished Research Scholar in Residence at the Richard Stockton College of New Jersey (USA) Michael B. Cosmopoulos, Ph.D., Professor and Endowed Chair in Greek Archaeology, University of Missouri-St. Louis (USA) Carole L. Crumley, PhD., Professor of European Archaeology, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill (USA) Kevin F. Daly, Assistant Professor of Classics, Bucknell University (USA) Joseph W. Day, Professor of Classics, Wabash College (USA) François de Callataÿ, Professor of Monetary and financial history of the Greek world, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes (Paris/Sorbonne) and Professor of Financial history of the Greco-Roman world, Université libre de Bruxelles (France and Brussels) Wolfgang Decker, Professor emeritus of sport history, Deutsche Sporthochschule, Köln (Germany) Luc Deitz, Außerplanmäßger Professor of Mediaeval and Renaissance Latin, University of Trier (Germany), and Curator of manuscripts and rare books, National Library of Luxembourg (Luxembourg) Charalambos Dendrinos, Lecturer in Byzantine Literature and Greek Palaeography, Acting Director, The Hellenic Institute, Royal Holloway, University of London (UK) Michael Dewar, Professor of Classics, University of Toronto (Canada) John D. Dillery, Associate Professor of Classics, University of Virginia (USA John Dillon, Emeritus Professor of Greek, Trinity College Dublin (Ireland) Sheila Dillon, Associate Professor, Depts. of Art, Art History & Visual Studies and Classical Studies, Duke University (USA) Michael D. Dixon, Associate Professor of History, University of Southern Indiana (USA) Douglas Domingo-Foraste, Professor of Classics, California State University, Long Beach (USA) Myrto Dragona-Monachou, Professor emerita of Philosophy, University of Athens (Greece) Stella Drougou, Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Pierre Ducrey, professeur honoraire, Université de Lausanne (Switzerland) John Duffy, Professor, Department of the Classics, Harvard University (USA) Roger Dunkle, Professor of Classics Emeritus, Brooklyn College, City University of New York (USA) Michael M. Eisman, Associate Professor Ancient History and Classical Archaeology, Department of History, Temple University (USA) Mostafa El-Abbadi, Professor Emeritus, University of Alexandria (Egypt) R. Malcolm Errington, Professor für Alte Geschichte (Emeritus) Philipps-Universität, Marburg (Germany) Christos C. Evangeliou, Professor of Ancient Hellenic Philosophy, Towson University, Maryland, Honorary President of International Association for Greek Philosophy (USA) Panagiotis Faklaris, Assistant Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Denis Feeney, Giger Professor of Latin, Princeton University (USA) Michael Ferejohn, Associate Professor of Ancient Philosophy, Duke University (USA) Kleopatra Ferla, Ph.D. in Ancient History, Head of Research and Management of Cultural Information, Foundation of the Hellenic World, Athens (Greece) Elizabeth A. Fisher, Professor of Classics and Art History, Randolph-Macon College (USA) Nick Fisher, Professor of Ancient History, Cardiff University (UK) R. Leon Fitts, Asbury J Clarke Professor of Classical Studies, Emeritus, FSA, Scot., Dickinson Colllege (USA) John M. Fossey FRSC, FSA, Emeritus Professor of Art History (and Archaeology), McGill Univertsity, Montreal, and Curator of Archaeology, Montreal Museum of Fine Arts (Canada) Dr. Athanasios Fotiou, Adjunct Professor, College of the Humanities, Greek and Roman Studies, Carleton University, Ottawa (Canada) Robin Lane Fox, University Reader in Ancient History, New College, Oxford (UK) Dr. Lee Fratantuono, William Francis Whitlock Professor of Latin, Ohio Wesleyan University (USA) Stavros Frangoulidis, Associate Professor of Latin. Aristotelian University of Thessaloniki (Greece) William K. Freiert, Professor of Classics and Hanson-Peterson Chair of Liberal Studies, Gustavus Adolphus College (USA) Rainer Friedrich, Professor of Classics Emeritus, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S. (Canada) Heide Froning, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Marburg (Germany) Peter Funke, Professor of Ancient History, University of Münster (Germany) Traianos Gagos, Professor of Greek and Papyrology, University of Michigan (USA) Karl Galinsky, Cailloux Centennial Professor of Classics, University of Texas, Austin (USA) Robert Garland, Roy D. and Margaret B. Wooster Professor of the Classics, Colgate University, Hamilton NY (USA) Hans-Joachim Gehrke, Prof. Dr., President of the German Archaeological Institute Berlin (Germany) Dr. Ioannis Georganas, Researcher, Department of History and Archaeology, Foundation of the Hellenic World (Greece) Douglas E. Gerber, Professor Emeritus of Classical Studies, University of Western Ontario (Canada) Dr. Andre Gerolymatos, Chair and Professor of Hellenic Studies, Simon Fraser University (Canada) Stephen L. Glass, John A. McCarthy Professor of Classics & Classical Archaeology, Pitzer College: The Claremont Colleges (USA) Hans R. Goette, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Giessen (Germany); German Archaeological Institute, Berlin (Germany) Sander M. Goldberg, Professor of Classics, UCLA (USA) Mark Golden, Professor, Department of Classics, University of Winnipeg (Canada) Ellen Greene, Joseph Paxton Presidential Professor of Classics, University of Oklahoma (USA) Robert Gregg, Teresa Moore Professor of Religious Studies, Emeritus, Director, The Abbasi Program in Islamic Studies, Stanford University (USA) Frederick T. Griffiths, Professor of Classics, Amherst College (USA) Dr. Peter Grossmann, Member emeritus, German Archaeological Institute, Cairo (Egypt) Erich S. Gruen, Gladys Rehard Wood Professor of History and Classics, Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley (USA) Martha Habash, Associate Professor of Classics, Creighton University (USA) Christian Habicht, Professor of Ancient History, Emeritus, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton (USA) Donald C. Haggis, Nicholas A. Cassas Term Professor of Greek Studies, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (USA) Judith P. Hallett, Professor of Classics, University of Maryland, College Park, MD (USA) Kim Hartswick, Academic Director, CUNY Baccalaureate for Unique and Interdisciplinary Studies, New York City (USA) Prof. Paul B. Harvey, Jr. Head, Department of Classics and Ancient Mediterranean Studies, The Pennsylvania State University (USA) Eleni Hasaki, Associate Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Arizona (USA) Rosalia Hatzilambrou, Ph.D., Researcher, Academy of Athens (Greece) Miltiades B. Hatzopoulos, Director, Research Centre for Greek and Roman Antiquity, National Research Foundation, Athens (Greece) Stephan Heilen, Associate Professor of Classics, University of Illinois at Urbana- Champaign (USA) Wolf-Dieter Heilmeyer, Prof. Dr., Freie Universität Berlin und Antikensammlung der Staatlichen Museen zu Berlin (Germany) Pontus Hellstrom, Professor of Classical archaeology and ancient history, Uppsala University (Sweden) Steven W. Hirsch, Associate Professor of Classics and History, Tufts University (USA) Karl-J. Holkeskamp, Professor of Ancient History, University of Cologne (Germany) Frank L. Holt, Professor of Ancient History, University of Houston (USA) Dan Hooley, Professor of Classics, University of Missouri (USA) Meredith C. Hoppin, Gagliardi Professor of Classical Languages, Williams College, Williamstown, MA (USA) Caroline M. Houser, Professor of Art History Emerita, Smith College (USA) and Affiliated Professor, University of Washington (USA) Professor Carl Huffman, Department of Classics, DePauw University (USA) John Humphrey, Professor of Greek and Roman Studies, University of Calgary (Canada) Frosen Jaakko, Professor of Greek philology, University of Helsinki (Finland) Dr Thomas Johansen, Reader in Ancient Philosophy, University of Oxford (UK) Vincent Jolivet, Archaeologist CNRS, Paris [French School Rome] (Italy) Georgia Kafka, Visiting Professor of Modern Greek Language, Literature and History, University of New Brunswick (Canada) Mika Kajava, Professor of Greek Language and Literature; Head of the Department of Classical Studies, University of Helsinki (Finland) Anthony Kaldellis, Professor of Greek and Latin, The Ohio State University (USA) Eleni Kalokairinou, Assistant Professor of Philosophy, Secretary of the Olympic Center of Philosophy and Culture (Cyprus) Lilian Karali, Professor of Prehistoric and Environmental Archaeology, University of Athens (Greece) Andromache Karanika, Assistant Professor of Classics, University of California, Irvine (USA) Robert A. Kaster, Professor of Classics and Kennedy Foundation Professor of Latin, Princeton University (USA) Dr. Athena Kavoulaki, Lecturer, Department of Philology, University of Crete, Rethymnon (Greece) Vassiliki Kekela, Adjunct Professor of Greek Studies, Classics Department, Hunter College, City University of New York (USA) John F. Kenfield, Associate Professor, Department of Art History, Rutgers University (USA) Dietmar Kienast, Professor Emeritus of Ancient History, University of Düsseldorf (Germany) Karl Kilinski II, University Distinguished Teaching Professor, Southern Methodist University (USA) Dr. Florian Knauss, associate director, Staatliche Antikensammlungen und Glyptothek München (Germany) Denis Knoepfler, Professor of Greek Epigraphy and History, Collège de France (Paris, France) Ortwin Knorr, Associate Professor of Classics, Willamette University (USA) Robert B. Koehl, Professor of Archaeology, Department of Classical and Oriental Studies Hunter College, City University of New York (USA) Thomas Koentges, Visiting lecturer, Ancient History, University of Leipzig (Germany) Georgia Kokkorou-Alevras, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Athens (Greece) Ann Olga Koloski-Ostrow, Associate Professor and Chair, Department of Classical Studies, Brandeis University (USA) Eric J. Kondratieff, Assistant Professor of Classics and Ancient History, Department of Greek & Roman Classics, Temple University (USA) Dr Eleni Kornarou, Visiting Lecturer of Ancient Greek Literature, Dept. of Classic and Philosophy, University of Cyprus (Cyprus) Haritini Kotsidu, Apl. Prof. Dr. für Klassische Archäologie, Goethe-Universität, Frankfurt/M. (Germany) Lambrini Koutoussaki, Dr., Lecturer of Classical Archaeology, University of Zürich (Switzerland) David Kovacs, Hugh H. Obear Professor of Classics, University of Virginia (USA) Prof. Dr. Ulla Kreilinger, Institut für Klassische Archäologie, Universität Erlangen (Germany) Dr. Christos Kremmydas, Lecturer in Ancient Greek History, Royal Holloway, University of London (UK) Peter Krentz, W. R. Grey Professor of Classics and History, Davidson College (USA) Friedrich Krinzinger, Professor of Classical Archaeology Emeritus, University of Vienna (Austria) Michael Kumpf, Professor of Classics, Valparaiso University (USA) Donald G. Kyle, Professor of History, University of Texas at Arlington (USA) Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. Helmut Kyrieleis, former president of the German Archaeological Institute, Berlin (Germany) Margaret L. Laird, Assistant Professor, Roman art and archaeology, University of Washington (USA) Gerald V. Lalonde, Benedict Professor of Classics, Grinnell College (USA) Steven Lattimore, Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of California, Los Angeles (USA) Francis M. Lazarus, President, University of Dallas (USA) Mary R. Lefkowitz, Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities, Emerita Wellesley College (USA) Irene S. Lemos FSA, Professor in Classical Archaeology,, S.Ioannou Centre for Classical and Byzantine Studies, Oxford University (UK) Ioannes G. Leontiades, Assistant Professor of Byzantine History, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Iphigeneia Leventi, Assistant Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Thessaly (Greece) Daniel B. Levine, Professor of Classical Studies, University of Arkansas (USA) Christina Leypold, Dr. phil., Archaeological Institute, University of Zürich (Switzerland) Vayos Liapis, Associate Professor of Greek, Centre d’Etudes Classiques & Departement de Philosophie, Université de Montreal (Canada) Hugh Lloyd-Jones, Professor of Greek Emeritus, University of Oxford (UK) Yannis Lolos, Assistant Professor, History, Archaeology, and Anthropology, University of Thessaly (Greece) Stanley Lombardo, Professor of Classics, University of Kansas (USA) Anthony Long, Professor of Classics and Irving G. Stone Professor of Literature, University of California, Berkeley (USA) Julia Lougovaya, Assistant Professor, Department of Classics, Columbia University (USA) Dr. John Ma, Lecturer in Ancient History, Oxford University and Tutorial Fellow in Ancient History, Corpus Christi College, Oxford (UK) A.D. Macro, Hobart Professor of Classical Languages emeritus, Trinity College (USA) John Magee, Professor, Department of Classics, Director, Centre for Medieval Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Dr. Christofilis Maggidis, Associate Professor of Archaeology, Dickinson College (USA) Chryssa Maltezou, Professor emeritus, University of Athens, Director of the Hellenic Institute of Byzantine and Postbyzantine Studies in Venice (Italy) Jeannette Marchand, Assistant Professor of Classics, Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio (USA) Evangeline Markou, Adjunct Lecturer in Greek History, Open University of Cyprus (Cyprus) Anna Marmodoro, Faculty of Philosophy, University of Oxford (UK) Richard P. Martin, Antony and Isabelle Raubitschek Professor in Classics, Stanford University (USA) Maria Mavroudi, Professor of Byzantine History, University of California, Berkeley (USA) Jody Maxmin, Associate Professor, Dept. of Art & Art History, Stanford University (USA) Alexander Mazarakis-Ainian, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Thessaly (Greece) James R. McCredie, Sherman Fairchild Professor emeritus; Director, Excavations in Samothrace Institute of Fine Arts, New York University (USA) Brian McGing M.A., Ph.D., F.T.C.D., M.R.I.A., Regius Professor of Greek, Trinity College Dublin (Ireland) James C. McKeown, Professor of Classics, University of Wisconsin-Madison (USA) Richard McKirahan, Edwin Clarence Norton of Classics and Professor of Philosophy, Pitzer College: The Claremont Colleges (USA) Robert A. Mechikoff, Professor and Life Member of the International Society of Olympic Historians, San Diego State University (USA) Andreas Mehl, Professor of Ancient History, Universität Halle-Wittenberg (Germany) John Richard Melville-Jones, Winthrop Professor, Classics and Ancient History, University of Western Australia (Australia) Marion Meyer, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Vienna (Austria) Dr. Aristotle Michopoulos, Professor & Chair, Greek Studies Dept., Hellenic College (Brookline, MA, USA) Harald Mielsch, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Bonn (Germany) Stephen G. Miller, Professor of Classical Archaeology Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley (USA) Lynette G. Mitchell, Senior Lecturer in Classics & Ancient History, Exeter University (UK) Phillip Mitsis, A.S. Onassis Professor of Classics and Philosophy, New York University (USA) Peter Franz Mittag, Professor für Alte Geschichte, Universität zu Köln (Germany) David Gordon Mitten, James Loeb Professor of Classical Art and Archaeology, Harvard University (USA) Mette Moltesen, MA, Curator of Ancient Art, Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek, Copenhagen (Denmark) Margaret S. Mook, Associate Professor of Classical Studies, Iowa State University (USA) Anatole Mori, Associate Professor of Classical Studies, University of Missouri- Columbia (USA) William S. Morison, Associate Professor of Ancient History, Grand Valley State University (USA) Jennifer Sheridan Moss, Associate Professor, Wayne State University (USA) Aliki Moustaka, Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristotelian University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Mark Munn, Professor of Ancient Greek History and Greek Archaeology, the Pennsylvania State University (USA) Ioannis Mylonopoulos, Assistant Professor of Greek Art History and Archaeology, Columbia University, New York (USA) Alexander Nehamas, Edmund N. Carpenter II Class of 1943 Professor in the Humanities, Professor of Philosophy and Comparative Literature, Princeton University (USA) Richard Neudecker, PD of Classical Archaeology, Deutsches Archäologisches Institut Rom (Italy) James M.L. Newhard, Associate Professor of Classics, College of Charleston (USA) Carole E. Newlands, Professor of Classics, University of Wisconsin, Madison (USA) Andrew G. Nichols, Visiting Lecturer of Classics, University of Florida (USA) Jessica L. Nitschke, Assistant Professor of Classics, Georgetown University (USA) John Maxwell O'Brien, Professor of History, Queens College, City University of New York (USA) James J. O'Hara, Paddison Professor of Latin, The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill (USA) Martin Ostwald, Professor of Classics (ret.), Swarthmore College and Professor of Classical Studies (ret.), University of Pennsylvania (USA) Olga Palagia, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Athens (Greece) Beata M. Kitsikis Panagopoulos, Professor of Art History, Retired, San Jose State University, Caifornia (USA) Christos Panayides, Associate Professor of Philosophy, University of Nicosia, (Cyprus) Vassiliki Panoussi, Associate Professor of Classical Studies, The College of William and Mary (USA) Maria C. Pantelia, Professor of Classics, University of California, Irvine (USA) Pantos A.Pantos, Adjunct Faculty, Department of History, Archaeology and Social Anthropology, University of Thessaly (Greece) Eleni Papaefthymiou, Curator of the Numismatic Collection of the Foundation of the Hellenic World (Greece) Maria Papaioannou, Assistant Professor in Classical Archaeology, University of New Brunswick (Canada) Anthony J. Papalas, Professor of Ancient History, East Carolina University (USA) Nassos Papalexandrou, Associate Professor, The University of Texas at Austin (USA) Polyvia Parara, Visiting Assistant Professor of Greek Language and Civilization, Department of Classics, Georgetown University (USA) Richard W. Parker, Associate Professor of Classics, Brock University (Canada) Robert Parker, Wykeham Professor of Ancient History, New College, Oxford (UK) Robert J. Penella, Professor and Chairman, Classics, Fordham University (USA) Anastasia-Erasmia Peponi, Associate Professor of Classics, Stanford University (USA) Jacques Perreault, Professor of Greek archaeology, Universite de Montreal, Quebec (Canada) Patrick Pfeil, magister artium Universität Leipzig, Alte Geschichte (Germany) Edward A. Phillips, Professor of Classics at Grinnell College (USA) Yanis Pikoulas, Associate Professor of Ancient Greek History, University of Thessaly (Greece) Lefteris Platon, Assistant Professor of Archaeology, University of Athens (Greece) John Pollini, Professor of Classical Art & Archaeology, University of Southern California (USA) David Potter, Arthur F. Thurnau Professor of Greek and Latin. The University of Michigan (USA) Daniel Potts, Edwin Cuthbert Hall Professor of Middle Eastern Archaeology, University of Sydney (Australia) Robert L. Pounder, Professor Emeritus of Classics, Vassar College (USA) Nikolaos Poulopoulos, Assistant Professor in History and Chair in Modern Greek Studies, McGill University (Canada) Selene Psoma, Senior Lecturer of Ancient History, University of Athens (Greece) William H. Race, George L. Paddison Professor of Classics, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (USA) John T. Ramsey, Professor of Classics, University of Illinois at Chicago (USA) Christian R. Raschle, Assistant Professor of Roman History, Centre d’Etudes Classiques & Departement d'Histoire, Université de Montreal (Canada) Karl Reber, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Lausanne (Switzerland) Gary Reger, Professor of History Trinity College, Connecticut (USA) Rush Rehm, Professor of Classics and Drama, Stanford University (USA) Heather L. Reid, Professor of Philosophy, Morningside College (USA) Christoph Reusser, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Zürich (Switzerland) Werner Riess, Associate Professor of Classics, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (USA) Dr Tracey E Rihll, Senior lecturer, Department of Classics, Ancient History and Egyptology, Swansea University ( Wales, UK) Robert H. Rivkin, Ancient Studies Department, University of Maryland Baltimore County (USA) Walter M. Roberts III, Assistant Professor of Classics, University of Vermont (USA) Barbara Saylor Rodgers, Professor of Classics, The University of Vermont (USA) Robert H. Rodgers. Lyman-Roberts Professor of Classical Languages and Literature, University of Vermont (USA) Guy MacLean Rogers, Kemper Professor of Classics and History, Wellesley College (USA) Roberto Romano, professore di ruolo (II level) di Civiltà bizantina e Storia bizantina, Università "Federico II" di Napoli (Italy) Nathan Rosenstein, Professor of Ancient History, The Ohio State University (USA) John C. Rouman, Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of New Hampshire, (USA) Dr. James Roy, Reader in Greek History (retired), University of Nottingham (UK) Steven H. Rutledge, Associate Professor of Classics, Department of Classics, University of Maryland, College Park (USA) Daniel J. Sahas, Professor Emeritus, University of Waterloo (Canada) Christina A. Salowey, Associate Professor of Classics, Hollins University (USA) Pierre Sanchez, Professor of Ancient History, University of Geneva (Switzerland) Theodore Scaltsas, Professor of Ancient Greek Philosophy, University of Edinburgh (UK) Thomas F. Scanlon, Professor of Classics, University of California, Riverside (USA) Thomas Schäfer, Professor, Institut für Klassische Archäologie, Universität Tübingen (Germany) Bernhard Schmaltz, Prof. Dr. Archäologisches Institut der CAU, Kiel (Germany) Prof. Dr. Andras Schmidt-Colinet, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Vienna (Austria) Robert C. Schmiel, Prof. Emeritus of Greek & Roman Studies, University of Calgary (Canada) Rolf M. Schneider, Professor of Classical Archaeology, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München (Germany) Joseph B. Scholten, PhD, Associate Director, Office of International Programs/Affiliate Assoc. Prof. of Classics, University of Maryland, College Park (USA) Peter Scholz, Professor of Ancient History and Culture, University of Stuttgart (Germany) Christof Schuler, director, Commission for Ancient History and Epigraphy of the German Archaeological Institute, Munich (Germany) Paul D. Scotton, Assoociate Professor Classical Archaeology and Classics, California State University Long Beach (USA) Danuta Shanzer, Professor of Classics and Medieval Studies, The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Fellow of the Medieval Academy of America (USA) James P. Sickinger, Associate Professor of Classics, Florida State University (USA) Athanasios Sideris, Ph.D., Head of the History and Archaeology Department, Foundation of the Hellenic World, Athens (Greece) G. M. Sifakis, Professor Emeritus of Classics, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki & New York University (Greece & USA) Christos Simelidis, British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow, Lincoln College, University of Oxford (UK) Henk W. Singor, Associate Professor of Ancient History Leiden University (Netherlands) Prof. Dr. Ulrich Sinn, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Wurzburg (Germany) Marilyn B. Skinner Professor of Classics, University of Arizona (USA) Niall W. Slater, Samuel Candler Dobbs Professor of Latin and Greek, Emory University (USA) Peter M. Smith, Associate Professor of Classics, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (USA) Dr. Philip J. Smith, Research Associate in Classical Studies, McGill University (Canada) Susan Kirkpatrick Smith Assistant Professor of Anthropology Kennesaw State University (USA) Antony Snodgrass, Professor Emeritus of Classical Archaeology, University of Cambridge (UK) Gina M. Soter, Lecturer IV, Classical Studies, The University of Michigan (USA) Slawomir Sprawski, Assistant Professor of Ancient History, Jagiellonian University, Krakow (Poland) Stylianos V. Spyridakis, Professor of Ancient History. University of California, Davis (USA) Theodosia Stefanidou-Tiveriou, Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Rachel Sternberg, Associate Professor of Classics, Case Western Reserve University (USA) Dr. Tom Stevenson, Lecturer in Classics and Ancient History, University of Queensland (Australia) Andrew Stewart, Nicholas C. Petris Professor of Greek Studies, University of California, Berkeley (USA) Oliver Stoll, Univ.-Prof. Dr., Alte Geschichte/ Ancient History, Universität Passau (Germany) Richard Stoneman, Honorary Fellow, University of Exeter (UK) Ronald Stroud, Klio Distinguished Professor of Classical Languages and Literature Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley (USA) Sarah Culpepper Stroup, Associate Professor of Classics, University of Washington (USA) Dr Panico J. Stylianou, Lecturer in Ancient History, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford (UK) Thomas A. Suits, Emeritus Professor of Classical Languages, University of Connecticut (USA) Nancy Sultan, Professor and Director, Greek & Roman Studies, Illinois Wesleyan University (USA) Peter Michael Swan, Professor of History Emeritus, University of Saskatchewan (Canada) David W. Tandy, Professor of Classics, University of Tennessee (USA) James Tatum, Aaron Lawrence Professor of Classics, Dartmouth College (USA) Martha C. Taylor, Associate Professor of Classics, Loyola College in Maryland (USA) Petros Themelis, Professor Emeritus of Classical Archaeology, Athens (Greece) Eberhard Thomas, Priv.-Doz. Dr., Archäologisches Institut der Universität zu Köln (Germany) Michalis Tiverios, Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Michael K. Toumazou, Professor of Classics, Davidson College (USA) Stephen V. Tracy, Professor of Greek and Latin Emeritus, Ohio State University (USA) Prof. Dr. Erich Trapp, Austrian Academy of Sciences/Vienna resp. University of Bonn (Germany) Christopher Trinacty, Keiter Fellow in Classics, Amherst College (USA) Stephen M. Trzaskoma, Associate Professor of Classics, University of New Hampshire (USA) Vasiliki Tsamakda, Professor of Christian Archaeology and Byzantine History of Art, University of Mainz (Germany) Christopher Tuplin, Professor of Ancient History, University of Liverpool (UK) Yannis Tzifopoulos, Associate Professor of Ancient Greek and Epigraphy, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Gretchen Umholtz, Lecturer, Classics and Art History, University of Massachusetts, Boston (USA) Panos Valavanis, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of Athens (Greece) Eric R. Varner, Associate Professor, Departments of Classics and Art History, Emory University, Atlanta (USA) Athanassios Vergados, Visiting Assistant Professor of Classics, Franklin & Marshall College (USA) Frederik J. Vervaet, PhD, Lecturer in Ancient History. School of Historical Studies The University of Melbourne (Australia) Christina Vester, Assistant Professor of Classics, University of Waterloo (Canada) Dr. Zsolt Visy, Leiter Universität Pécs Lehrstuhl für Alte Geschichte und Archäologie, Archäologisches Seminar (Hungary) Emmanuel Voutiras, Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) Speros Vryonis, Jr., Alexander S. Onassis Professor (Emeritus) of Hellenic Civilization and Culture, New York University (USA) Michael B. Walbank, Professor Emeritus of Greek, Latin & Ancient History, The University of Calgary (Canada) Dr. Irma Wehgartner, Curator of the Martin von Wagner Museum der Universität Wurzburg (Germany) Bonna D. Wescoat, Associate Professor, Art History and Ancient Mediterranean Studies, Emory University (USA) E. Hector Williams, Professor of Classical Archaeology, University of British Columbia (Canada) Peter James Wilson FAHA, William Ritchie Professor of Classics, The University of Sydney (Australia) Roger J. A. Wilson, Professor of the Archaeology of the Roman Empire, and Director, Centre for the Study of Ancient Sicily, University of British Columbia, Vancouver (Canada) Engelbert Winter, Professor for Ancient History, University of Münster (Germany) Timothy F. Winters, Ph.D. Alumni Assn. Distinguished Professor of Classics Austin Peay State University (USA) Ioannis Xydopoulos, Assistant Professor in Ancient History, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) David C. Young, Professor of Classics Emeritus, University of Florida (USA) Maria Ypsilanti, Assistant Professor of Ancient Greek Literature, University of Cyprus (Cyprus) Katerina Zacharia, Associate Professor and Chair, Department of Classics & Archaeology, Loyola Marymount University (USA) Michael Zahrnt, Professor für Alte Geschichte, Universität zu Köln (Germany) Paul Zanker, Professor Emeritus of Classical Studies, University of Munich (Germany) Froma I. Zeitlin, Ewing Professor of Greek Language & Literature, Professor of Comparative Literature, Princeton University (USA)

332 signatures as of June 22nd, 2009, that were sent with the update. The original letter sent on May 18th, 2009, had 200 signatures. For the growing list of scholars, please go to the Addenda.

cc: J. Biden, Vice President, USA H. Clinton, Secretary of State USA P. Gordon, Asst. Secretary-designate, European and Eurasian Affairs H.L Berman, Chair, House Committee on Foreign Affairs I. Ros-Lehtinen, Ranking Member, House Committee on Foreign Affairs J. Kerry, Chair, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations R.G. Lugar, Ranking Member, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations R. Menendez, United States Senator from New Jersey.

Addenda

3 Scholars added on June 25th 2009: Jerker Blomqvist, Professor emeritus of Greek Language and literature, Lund University (Sweden) Christos Karakolis, Assistant Professor of New Testament, University of Athens (Greece) Chrys C. Caragounis, Professor emeritus of New Testament Exegesis and the development of the Greek language since ancient times, Lund University (Sweden) 5 Scholars added on June 29th 2009: Harold D. Evjen, Professor Emeritus of Classical Studies, University of Colorado at Boulder (USA) Hara Tzavella-Evjen, Professor Emerita of Classical Archaeology, University of Colorado at Boulder (USA) Michael Paschalis, Professor of Classics, Department of Philology, University of Crete, Rethymnon (Greece) Vrasidas Karalis, Professor, New Testament Studies, The University of Sydney (Australia) Emilio Crespo, Professor of Greek Philology, Universidad Autónoma de Madrid (Spain) 2 Scholars added on July 8th 2009: Dr. Zoi Kotitsa, Archaeologist, Scientific research fellow, University of Marburg (Germany) Dr. Ekaterini Tsalampouni, Assistant Lecturer in New Testament, Graeco-Roman antiquity and Koine Greek, Ludwig-Maximillian University of Munich (Germany) 2 Scholars added on July 18th 2009: Karol Myśliwiec, Professor Dr., Director of the Research Centre for Mediterranean Archaeology, Polish Academy of Sciences, Warsaw (Poland) Stephen Neale, Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Linguistics, John H. Kornblith Family Chair in the Philosophy of Science and Values, City University of New York (USA) 1 Scholar added on July 20th 2009: Marsh McCall, Professor Emeritus, Department of Classics, Stanford University (USA) 1 Scholar added on August 10th 2009: Georgia Tsouvala, Assistant Professor of History, Illinois State University (USA) 1 Scholar added on September 3rd 2009: Mika Rissanen, PhL, Ancient History, University of Jyvaskyla (Finland) 2 Scholars added on October 10th 2009: José Antonio Fernández Delgado. Professor of Greek Philology, Universidad de Salamanca (Spain) Zinon Papakonstantinou, Assistant Professor of Hellenic Studies, Henry M. Jackson School of International Studies, University of Washington, Seattle (USA) 1 Scholar added on October 17th 2009: Eugene Afonasin, Professor of Greek Philosophy and of Roman Law, Novosibirsk State University (Russia) 1 Scholar added on October 28th 2009: Hartmut Wolff, Professor für Alte Geschichte (emeritus), Universität Passau (Germany) 1 Scholar added on October 30th 2009: Eleni Manakidou, Assistant Professor of Classical Archaeology, Aristoteles University of Thessaloniki (Greece) 1 Scholar added on November 3rd 2009: Pavlos Sfyroeras, Associate Professor of Classics, Middlebury College (USA) 1 Scholar added on November 11th 2009: Konstantinos Kapparis, Associate Professor of Classics, Department of Classics, University of Florida (USA) 1 Scholar added on November 14th 2009: Prof. Dr. Ingomar Weiler, Professor Emeritus, Ancient Greek and Roman History, Karl-Franzens-Universität of Graz (Austria) 1 Scholar added on November 15th 2009: Werner Petermandl, Universitätslektor, Karl-Franzens-Universität of Graz (Austria) 1 Scholar added on December 4th 2009: István Kertész, Professor of ancient Greco-Roman history, Department of Ancient and Medieval History, Pedagogic College in Eger (Hungary) 1 Scholar added on March 11th 2010: Nassi Malagardis, chargée de Mission au Département des Antiquités Grecques, Etrusques et Romaines du Musée du Louvre, Paris (France) 2 Scholars added on March 25th 2010: Gonda Van Steen, Professor, Department of Classics, University of Florida (USA) Robert Wagman, Associate Professor of Classics, Department of Classics, University of Florida (USA) 2 Scholars added on March 27th 2010: Angelos Barmpotis, Ph.D., Director of the Digital Epigraphy and Archaeology Project, University of Florida (USA) Eleni Bozia, Ph.D. Visiting Lecturer, Department of Classics, University of Florida (USA) 1 Scholar added on April 16th 2010: Timothy Johnson, Associate Professor, Department of Classics, University of Florida (USA) 1 Scholar added on April 17th 2010: Christos C. Tsagalis, Associate Professor of Classics, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece) 1 Scholar added on August 31st 2010: Potitsa Grigorakou, Lecturer in Hellenism in the Orient, Public University of Athens (Greece) 2 Scholars added on September 3rd 2010: Maurice Sartre, Professor of Ancient History, emeritus. Université François-Rabelais, Tours (France) Apostolos Bousdroukis, Researcher, Institute for Greek and Roman Antiquity, National Hellenic Research Foundation (Greece) 1 Scholar added on September 10th 2010: Alastar Jackson, Hon. Research Fellow in Ancient History, Manchester University (U.K.) 1 Scholar added on October 5th 2010: Frances Van Keuren, Professor Emerita of Ancient Art History, University of Georgia (U.S.A)