Talk:3rd Cavalry Regiment (United States)

3d versus 3rd

Just so no one tries to rename this article again: "3d" is not a typo. The U.S. Army uses "3d" instead of "3rd". (Atfyfe 20:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

Can you source this? --ExarPalantas (talk) 09:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Somewhere there are official army documents explaining why and which units use "3d" rather than "3rd" (all of them?). However, instead of hunting that down, here is a good enough source: http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_acr/ It's the 3d ACR's unit website. Notice their use of "3d" rather than "3rd". - Atfyfe (talk) 10:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

You didn't say that just Third ACR uses that notation; you said "The U.S. Army uses...", so pointing me just to Third ACR's site doesn't support your statement. I can find numerous Army sites that use "2nd" and "3rd," like here for example: http://www.campbell.army.mil/units/101st/2BCT/Pages/2ndBCT.aspx If you're going to comment on the policy of an entire organization, you should be prepared to point to something supporting that. "There are documents somewhere" is not a source. ExarPalantas (talk) 07:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

A Rebuttal? I am not trying to prove anything to you. I was just trying to be helpful. If you want to change it to "3rd" then go ahead. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink. It's also the army's policy to spell "Soldier" with an uppercase "S", but I bet I can find plenty of instances of official documents where the world is spelled with a lowercase "s". You know why? Because it's a big organization with lots of people who don't always know the grammatical policy of the army about every trivial thing. In any case, the unit's site should be good enough evidence for the name of the unit. Do you really think the 3d ACR's site says “3d” instead of “3rd” just as a typo? Furthermore, there are plenty of official documents on the 3d ACR site (regimental history, policy letters, etc.) that uses “3d” rather than “3rd”, and I think the unit itself is the best authority on its own name. Perhaps this is where you are confused: I don't know what other units the army uses “3d” instead of “3rd”, I am ONLY claiming that the correct name for the 3d ACR uses “3d”. I have seen other units use it (and many who seem not to, as you pointed out), so I am not sure exactly how the policy works. But often the army has odd naming conventions. Perhaps because some unit names date from an earlier time when different abbreviations might have been prevalent and more modern units use today's abbreviations (e.g. the 3d ACR is a lot older than the 101st Airborne, which its the unit the link you gave describes). Perhaps it's a cavalry thing. I wish I knew, but that doesn't change the obvious point that at least the 3d ACR's name is with a “3d”. I'm not going around changing the names of other army units, I'm just making a claim about this one. When I said "The U.S. Army uses '3d' instead of '3rd'" I was refering to what the Army uses for the name of the 3d ACR. - Atfyfe (talk) 16:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

You're writing in an encyclopedia. The information you're telling the general public about the US Army should be verifiable and conform to doctrine. I think Third ACR's site says "3d" because the E-4 or whoever that put it together heard from some guy who heard from some guy that it was "3d," and never actually bothered looking it up. However, that's just my opinion (you know, not verifiable), so I'm willing to accept "3d" as an abbreviation for the unit. What you might do is look around online for a discussion of Army naming customs, and include a section in the article about the history of using "3d" instead of the standard abbreviation. ExarPalantas (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I think I might have jumped on you a bit there. We were talking past one another. I gave you the link to the 3d ACR site because I was trying to point out that “3d” is used by the army for the 3d ACR. I was not trying to establish a larger claim about how the army names other units. The army does seem to use “3d” for some other units, but I do not know what determines which units get “3d” and which get “3rd”. I was annoyed because I clearly the 3d ACR website is a good enough source for establishing the name of the 3d ACR, which is all that I have been claiming. - Atfyfe (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I put "rd" on my memorandums, because I think "d" looks damn stupid. It's embarassing if I'm circulating correspondence to non-DoD or foreign agencies, because they assume it's a typo, and now my documents look unprofessional. Once in a great while, a grumpy NCO will tell me that it's "d" and not "rd." Then I ask him what regulation it's in. He can't tell me; end of conversation. I have this short conversation about once a year, and so far, not one single person can even give me a hint as to what publication supports this. Above you mentioned "official documents." Have you ever seen these documents? Was it an AR? An FM? A policy letter? I can tell you it's not in the ARs for correspondence or the writing guide for army leaders. I looked it up a long time ago when someone first brought this up. I would love to know where this custom came from. ExarPalantas (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I am a Soldier in the 3d ACR, and would like to put an end to this argument. The Regiment of Mounted Riflemen, The Brave Rifles, are officially named the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, by an act of congress. The "3d" has been in use since 1861, when the Regiment was officially designated as the 3d United States Cavalry Regiment, during the Army's reorganization of it's mounted units. At the end of the WWII, our unit was redesignated as the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment. Here are some references, and everyone can look for themselves... Websites: 1) http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_acr/ 2) http://www.history.army.mil/books/Lineage/arcav/arcav.htm & 3) http://www.braverifles.org/OurHistory.aspx Also, I do not know why this is, and maybe someone can enlighten us here... It is true that Brigade Combat Teams and probably other units use the full suffix, such as -th and -rd. For example, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division. In 3d ACR's case, I agree that dropping the r in the rd suffix of causes confusion amongst the general public and to those outside these units. However, the arguments regarding the matter is arbitrary, and it is not a subject matter open for debate. As far as Brave Rifles are concerned, we are officially the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment. The official Regimental abbreviation is 3d ACR, as stated in our Regimental customs and traditions, page 61 of the Blood and Steel book. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.113.8.138 (talk) 21:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. In researching this I've also found that "3d" instead of "3rd" is not as uncommon as one might think. For example, the catholic church apparently uses "3d" instead of "3rd" for Popes. - Atfyfe (talk) 00:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

This argument started from Atfyfe's statement "The U.S. Army uses '3d' instead of '3rd'." It's at the top of the page. Explain how your references that Third ACR uses "3d" demonstrates that either A.) The entire US Army uses that notation, or B.) That "Somewhere there are official army documents explaining why and which units use '3d' rather than '3rd.'" That Third ACR uses "3d" has never particularly been in dispute here. Do you know what a red herring is? --ExarPalantas (talk) 14:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you're just misinterpreting what Atfyfe meant when he wrote that. I feel that he only meant to say "The U.S. Army uses "3d" instead of "3rd" [in naming the 3d ACR]", to inform people who were mistakenly changing the name of the article, and not as a blanket statement about the US Army's naming system. Hyalos (talk) 19:01, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

It's terrific you feel that way, but I'm afraid I can only interpret what someone actually wrote. If Atfyfe had wanted to inform people who were changing the name of the article that, in his experience, some units use "3d," then he should have said exactly that. Instead, he made two claims that he hasn't even attempted to back up, nor has he retracted them. --ExarPalantas (talk) 14:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Civil War service

When an article about the 3rd U.S. Cavalry Regiment is created, this page should be removed from Category:Union Army regiments and cross-referenced to those articles. Twisted86 06:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Corrections and Removal

I corrected several scattered instances of "3rd," "third cavalry," and the like to the standard "3d Cavalry;" as well as "[the] regiment" to "Regiment."

In the section about CPT David Rozelle, I removed this statement: "One of the contributing factors that caused this was that Capt. Rozelle had failed to line the bottom of his Humvee with sand bags. This was to supposed to help prevent the blast from entering the vehicle. Has he followed this order, the injury might not have been that substantial." In addition to the poor writing, this section is uninformed speculation. First, there is no reliable source cited for the existence of an order regarding sand bags (because there was no such order) and second, a sand bag-lined floor would not have mitigated the effects of an anti-tank mine explosion on the occupants of a Humvee.63.160.173.6 17:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree 63.160.173.6, I think the statement is out-of-line. I don't know how CPT Rozelle's Troop ran, but in my unit the idea that sandbags ought to be put at the bottom of our Humvees was not a command but more of a rumor that soldiers didn't know what exactly to make of. Plus the sandbags could only be fitted to a very small portion of the bottom of the Humvee. -- Atfyfe () 04:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Squadron sub-sections

I standardized the initial format for the squadron sub-sections in the "Origins" section to make them all look the same. I filled in most of the unit "nicknames" from memory, but I've forgotten some, namely HHT, 4th Squadron and HHT, Support Squadron. Also, the Howitzer Batteries for 2d and 3d Squadrons are "Lion" and "Regulator," but I'm not sure which one was which. I haven't been able to find a source for these at the official unit site, Globalsecurity.org, military.com, or anywhere else, so somebody with a better memory than me will have to fill those in.

Also, the Longknife Squadron unit history could use a little cleaning up, and the last paragraph of the Muleskinner Squadron section (regarding OIF III) is of questionable notability. Mike f 16:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

HHT SPT is Bullwhip - fixed that. I also cleaned up some of the Muleskinner history for OIF3, but I don't know enough about 4/3 to touch that. My suggestion would be to check the "Mounted Rifleman" magazine (posted obscurely on the ft carson website) for better info and history. Also, I noticed that at some point DarthBinky took out "At present, the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment is the only heavy armored cavalry regiment left in the Army," in the header, stating that the 11th and 2nd still exist. Well, yes, they exist, but they are light cavalry regiments, not heavy, as in, our 3ACR's Abrams will roll right over your 2ACR Bradley. Sorry, Binky, I'm putting it back. -Rich-cat the Pad God 207.135.154.248 00:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

What do we do about Troop names that have changed over time? When I was in C Troop 89-91, it was "Cyclone" Troop, not "Crazyhorse," and we had cyclones painted on the frontal slope portion of the turret of the tanks (don't remember about the Bradleys tho). 71.38.51.145 03:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

forgot to login, previous question is mine Aramis1250 03:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Organisation and History

I've been trying to track down the changes in unit size, organisation, and equipment over the years. Obviously, there's the shift from horses to tanks, but info on the US Army's armoured cavalry regiments is a bit thin. For instance, a lot of detail about the current unit, less on earlier times. Some of this just needs linking to the correct article, I'm sure, but a couple of references suggest that not all the periodic reorganisations of units were applied to all the ACRs. I get the feeling that it needs an insider to explain it all to the rest of us. Zhochaka 14:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Steve-o.JPG

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move. (While I personally disagree that we have to respect "official name" in every nitpicking aspect, especially like this one). Duja► 14:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't be too controversial ... the unit's official designation is "3d", NOT "3rd", so the article should be named accordingly (see WP:MILHIST#Military_units_and_formations). Also see http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_acr/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike f (talk • contribs) 17:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

However, all of the text uses 3rd, and 3rd gets double the number of Google hits, so it is obviously thought to be correct by someone... Conrad.Irwin 22:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The text of this article uses "3rd" because the same person who moved the article changed all instances of "3d" to "3rd" at the same time. I don't know why the Google hits are they way they are, but I would refer to the unit's official site again: http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_acr/ as well as a few official documents that use "3d": http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_ACR/content/history/unitawards/valorous_unit_award3.pdf ; http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_ACR/content/history/unitawards/valorous_unit_award.pdf ; http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_ACR/content/history/unitawards/valorous_unit_award2.pdf not to mention the unit's official history: http://www.hood.army.mil/3d_ACR/content/history/regimental_history.html . So, just because "someone" thinks "3rd" is correct does not make it so. Mike f 22:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is "helpful" people who come along every so often and switch everything from 3d to 3rd. I never corrected it only because I saw that this was probably both a re-occurring and systemic problem with all the units that should be "3d" instead of "3rd" (for example: 3rd Infantry Division (United States)). What we really need is a wide-ranging and permanent solution to keep “3d” safe from careless editors on all the entries it appears. - Atfyfe 23:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC) - Atfyfe 23:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Conrad.Irwin, it isn't correct it is just an easy mistake to make. If I asked any of the civilians in the coffee shop I'm in right now to write down the name "Third Infantry Division" I am sure they will all write down "3rd Infantry Division". This is wrong, but there is no reason they would know better. - Atfyfe 23:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

With the 3rd/3d Infantry Division, it's a little more debatable because the unit's official website uses "3rd" most often, with a few scattered uses of "3d" here and there. While that may or may not be "officially" correct according to the unit's MTOE or other such documents (I've noticed that the Army generally uses the all-capital form "2D" and "3D" on such documents), that appears to be the way the unit commonly refers to itself. With the 3d ACR, the unit invariably refers to itself specifically as "3d" -- not "3rd," not "3D," not "3RD," not "3ACR," or any other variation -- for reasons related to the unit's history. I'm sure if one looked hard enough, they could dig up an official document with "3rd ACR" on it, but that's a rare exception (usually a typo by an uninformed individual), not the rule. Mike f 00:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• I propose keeping the "3rd" designation as it is more usual and obvious. See other military unit names, as they are all designated as "3rd", not "3d". In my opinion, "3d" designation seems like an typing error to the most of the readers. --Eurocopter tigre 18:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, according to WP:MILHIST#UNITNAME "The name should generally be the official name used by the armed forces to which the unit belongs..." Whether most of the readers think it's a typo or not doesn't matter; "3d" is the designation used by the U.S. Army -- "the armed forces to which the unit belongs." Mike f 19:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

If WP:MILHIST regulations say that, I have nothing to complain anymore. --Eurocopter tigre 19:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Unit structure

I added a graphic of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiments structure. However this is the old structure, which will change with the ongoing Transformation of the United States Army. The new structure will be the standardized Heavy armored brigade structure, but as I did not find any information today about which units will survive the transformation, I created a graphic with todays structure. As soon as someone knows what the new structure will be (especially what will happen with the 4th Squadron), let me know and I will update the graphic. --noclador 19:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Image

File:3dAcrPatch.jpg

This image should fit in somewhere in this article. --rxnd (talk) 13:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)