Talk:Ante Pavelić

Suggestions / Concerns

Intro paragraph: "Ante Pavelić (14 July 1889 – 28 December 1959) was Croatian fascist leader,[1] revolutionist[2] and politician.[3] He ruled as Poglavnik[note 1] of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), a World War II puppet state of Nazi Germany in Axis-occupied Yugoslavia.[4] In the 1930s, he was a founding member and leader of the Croatian fascist[5] ultra-nationalist separatist movement, the Ustaše. In 1941, having been installed by the Axis occupation as leader of a Croat puppet state, he instituted a racial policy that led to genocide over hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Roma in the NDH concentration camps, along with Croat political opponents and resistance members. At the end of the war, Pavelić escaped abroad. He died from wounds caused by an assassination attempt in Madrid on 28 December 1959."

Incorporating the term fascist is POV. Ante Pavelic was not the leader of Croatia's Fascist Party (one has never existed). The term puppet state is also POV, out of all the countries mentioned in the Eichmann trial, Croatia was the only one that a notable Nazi considered to be a sovereign republic. If we can not change the "puppet state" tag, such information should be included because it would support the neutrality of this article. Axis-occupied Yugoslavia is also an irrelevant term as Yugoslavia did not defacto exist then (the one that was formed after the war was not the same as the one prior to, neither of them had defacto or dejure control) and today these regions have different names. If anything I would suggest that it be noted within Axis-Occupied Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina if anything. Saying that the Ustasa movement was installed is also POV. Hitler first wished to keep together Yugoslavia and tried to install Vladko Macek, which didn't happen. Slavko Kvatrenik declared Croatian independence prior to German's entering Zagreb and they simply accepted it. If the Ustasa movement was installed it couldn't have been by several parties at once, and if so, those parties would have recoginzed Croatia's independence that very day. Italy actually recognized Croatia a week or two before Germany did. The latter part about a racial party is nonsense. The Ustasa leadership instituted a Racial Policy towards only Jews. It should be noted that this Racial Policy was the only European anti-semitic policy that has unique notions granting special aryan status to Jews who supported the Croatian statehood cause prior to April of 1941. To say that Pavelic escaped is also misleading because ally special service agencies knew where he was the whole time. AP1929 (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There are copious amounts of sources which support everything you are refuting here, and even if you could quote a reliable source for your suggestions you would need to prove that these do not represent only a minority view (see WP:UNDUE). Whether Pavelić's party was called "fascist" is completely beside the point as historians are compelled to judge political ideas based on their concepts and not on their self-appointed labels. Using you analogy, Kim Il-sung was a democrat because he led the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

• Britannica.com says the following:

• On Pavelić - A "Croatian fascist leader and revolutionist who headed a Croatian state subservient to Germany and Italy during World War II."
• On Ustaša - "Croatian fascist movement that nominally ruled the Independent State of Croatia during World War II."
• On fascism - "The word fascism was first used by Benito Mussolini in Italy to describe the form of government he brought to that nation in the 1920s. The same type of government also appeared in Germany, Japan, South Africa, Argentina, and a number of other countries later, although it was not always called fascism. In its most notorious version, which developed in Germany under Adolf Hitler, it was called National Socialism."
• Axis-occupied Yugoslavia IS a relevant term as the country was still recognized as a sovereign state abroad and was represented by the Yugoslav government in exile throughout the war (e.g. it did have de jure control over it). The dismemberment of Yugoslavia was never officially recognized internationally by any country other than those which participated in the occupation. Using your logic, Croatia did not de facto exist until 1995 because of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Good luck with proving that.
• "Saying that the Ustasa movement was installed is also POV. Hitler first wished to keep together Yugoslavia and tried to install Vladko Macek, which didn't happen. Slavko Kvatrenik declared Croatian independence prior to German's entering Zagreb and they simply accepted it. If the Ustasa movement was installed it couldn't have been by several parties at once, and if so, those parties would have recoginzed Croatia's independence that very day." - If NDH was NOT a puppet state then why is Hitler's opinion relevant? But if it WAS a puppet state then ANY regime which subsequently came into power was by definition installed by the Germans. I can't remember Ustaše running in any elections to win power in the country. Do you?
• Concerning the racial policy bit - the lead says that "racial policy that led to genocide over hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Roma". Again, it is entirely irrelevant what the actual laws stated in light of the well-evidenced fact that many Jews, Serbs and Roma were exterminated. The point is that a racial olicy was instituted which made concentration camps and genocide possible.
• I don't see how "escape" clashes with the idea that someone knew where he was (which you should be able to prove anyway). It is safe to assume that he would have been arrested and shot had he not escaped towards the end of the war so it qualifies as an "escape". How would you describe it alternatively? He just happened to go on a state visit which just happened to coincide with the disappearance of his state and which just happened to last about 15 years? Timbouctou 10:03, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the term fascist, my logic did not imply what you have outlined but I can see where you would have come to such a conclusion. My point was that the term fascist is vaguely defined but under examination of what we know to be fascist and what the Ustasa movement was, it wasn't defined enough as a political movement in all aspects of political life to be coined fascist and the term is mainly used by the NDH's political opponents which immediately offsets the neutrality of this article. Through decades of yugoslav historiography which has been accepted as modern Croatian historiography one can not see any actual analysis or study proving the fascist nature of NDH. It was simply branded so through sourcing. However, I guess all that really matters here is what Britannica has to say as it seems to trump everything else. I don't see the point in a discussion page either if you really think about it.

Regarding the dejure control of the yugoslav government in excile: they capitulated and international law points to dejure and defacto control as necessary foundations to any type of sovereignty. The RSK for a large portion of Serbia's aggression on Croatia did infact have defacto control, but it had no dejure control - I think only one country recognized it. The NDH was recognized by dozens of nations both in and our of the Axis sphere. Today a familiar example would be to look at the recent happenings in Kosovo to understand how the process works. Looking back to the Republic of Croatia's situation, I should highlight that the RSK took up about only a third of the modern day Republic of Croatia, meaning the proclaimed and democratically created Republic of Croatia controlled over two-thirds of it's internationally recognized territory.

Regarding the need for elections in 1941: the Ustasa movement set up the country and proclaimed it, and was welcomed by plebiscite by the Croatian people, welcomed even by the leadership of the HSS - I would be extremely shocked if you could find me (after years of Croatian oppression in the first yugoslavia) any Croatian documentation of anything other than euphoria on April 10th 1941. It simply didn't exist and your notion of the need for a democratic process is very ethnocentric. According to your logic, most of the entities that existed in the world prior to the French Revolution simply didn't exist or were illegal. The Ustasa movement proclaimed the state, no one appointed them to do so, and by doing so, they were accepted by the Axis who really had no other choice as their first options fell through.

Concerning Racial policy in NDH, you go from a hundred thousand figure to saying genocide and then back to many people were exterminated. I'm very familiar with the camp facilities in Croatia and the demographics of that era. The camps were established as labor camps for those who were deemed enemies of the state - regardless of their nationality if they were not Jewish (which is a whole other issue). First you are claiming that what the law stated is irrelevant but then claim that the laws in fact enabled the establishment of extermination camps. So which is it? Could you please provide me a few sources on the laws concerning non-jewish citizens of the NDH which placed them in these facilities and which of these facilities were used for extermination and by what means?

Concerning escape, the idea that he escaped would indicate that he was in hiding from all enemies of state - which would obviously include the Western Allies.AP1929 (talk) 01:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Honestly this is getting kind of boring. I would much rather prefer to discuss these issues with people who aren't paid to be here to push the Republic of Croatia's alleged anti-fascist political agenda; who have legitimate Western educations and actually know how to communicate in the English language. AP1929 (talk) 01:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

"My point was that the term fascist is vaguely defined but under examination of what we know to be fascist and what the Ustasa movement was, it wasn't defined enough as a political movement in all aspects of political life to be coined fascist and the term is mainly used by the NDH's political opponents which immediately offsets the neutrality of this article. Through decades of yugoslav historiography which has been accepted as modern Croatian historiography one can not see any actual analysis or study proving the fascist nature of NDH. It was simply branded so through sourcing. However, I guess all that really matters here is what Britannica has to say as it seems to trump everything else. I don't see the point in a discussion page either if you really think about it."

• This is plain ridiculous. "Political opponents" of the Axis forces and their allies is pretty much the entire post-WWII Western world, probably extending to what qualified historians in the West (as well as in Yugoslavia) had wrote about it in the last 65 years. Where else do you suggest Wikipedia should look for sources for its statements? I suggest you read WP:OR, WP:FORUM and WP:UNDUE and return to his discussion when you have something to offer other than your personal musings about the topic.

"Regarding the dejure control of the yugoslav government in excile: they capitulated and international law points to dejure and defacto control as necessary foundations to any type of sovereignty."

• I assume France did not exist either in your world. You should definitely drop by at Talk:Vichy France and Talk:Provisional Government of the French Republic to share your revelations with the world.

"Today a familiar example would be to look at the recent happenings in Kosovo to understand how the process works."

• Really? While it is true that Serbia lost de facto control of Kosovo some 10 years ago and that it gradually lost de jure control in the meantime, I must have missed the memo about Serbia actually capitulating to a foreign power and then overwhelming the power and retaking control of the territory.

"Regarding the need for elections in 1941: the Ustasa movement set up the country and proclaimed it, and was welcomed by plebiscite by the Croatian people, welcomed even by the leadership of the HSS - I would be extremely shocked if you could find me (after years of Croatian oppression in the first yugoslavia) any Croatian documentation of anything other than euphoria on April 10th 1941. It simply didn't exist and your notion of the need for a democratic process is very ethnocentric. According to your logic, most of the entities that existed in the world prior to the French Revolution simply didn't exist or were illegal. The Ustasa movement proclaimed the state, no one appointed them to do so, and by doing so, they were accepted by the Axis who really had no other choice as their first options fell through."

• You seem to be a stickler for definitions so let me quote the definition of the word plebiscite - "a direct vote in which an entire electorate is asked to either accept or reject a particular proposal." So was there a direct vote in which an entire electorate was asked to either accept or reject the creation of NDH? Yes or no? If not, I'm afraid we have to accept your idea of the level of support NDH had as pure speculation. The comparison with the French Revolution is out of place - the French Revolution was a sudden and fundamental political change in which people who had little or no political rights became emancipated. HSS, HSP and even Ustaše were founded in a different century and had many options to legitimize their actions by simply asking voters. Even the Nazis in Germany had to win parliament seats fair and square in order to do with the country what they wanted to do. Pavelić and his crew on the other hand simply appeared out of nowhere and proclaimed whatever they wanted to proclaim (I suppose one could say he saw politics the same way you see Wikipedia). There are numerous books and studies discussing the popularity of the Ustaše and their pet project among the Croats and they all claim that HSS was by far the most popular party in the country whereas the Ustaše and even HSP were seen as marginal groups at the time - and even Pavelić himself admitted in his May 1941 filmed speech that people "used to call them nutcases". This is in contradiction with your perception of Croats being ecstatic about the whole thing.

"The Ustasa movement proclaimed the state, no one appointed them to do so, and by doing so, they were accepted by the Axis who really had no other choice as their first options fell through."

• The Axis had no other choice than to accept what the Ustaše had proclaimed? Really? This is some seriously acrobatic logic my friend. What do you suppose compelled the Axis to accept what the Ustaše had proclaimed? And you don't think that the fact that Pavelić was literally trucked in to Zagreb from an Axis country where he spent years before the war or that he officially proclaimed the country subject to a foreign ruler offers no hint as to who his political sponsors were?

"Concerning Racial policy in NDH, you go from a hundred thousand figure to saying genocide and then back to many people were exterminated. I'm very familiar with the camp facilities in Croatia and the demographics of that era. The camps were established as labor camps for those who were deemed enemies of the state - regardless of their nationality if they were not Jewish (which is a whole other issue). First you are claiming that what the law stated is irrelevant but then claim that the laws in fact enabled the establishment of extermination camps. So which is it? Could you please provide me a few sources on the laws concerning non-jewish citizens of the NDH which placed them in these facilities and which of these facilities were used for extermination and by what means?"

• Actually I think this bit is completely irrelevant to this article as it should deal primarily with AP's biography and his role in whatever the NDH was known for (which is, per consensus, wholesale killings). I admit I don't know much about the intricacies of Ustaše legal system, nor do I think this is relevant to this article as such. There is no doubt that some racial policies did exist and that scores of people were imprisned and killed in camps designed specifically for that purpose. If you (or the reader) happen to need more information about the details of specific policies introduced by NDH or the concentration camps in NDH or the legal framework which made it all possible I'm sure you are more than able to find some yourself in Wikipedia's own related articles or in other places on the Internet.

"Concerning escape, the idea that he escaped would indicate that he was in hiding from all enemies of state - which would obviously include the Western Allies"

• I'm sure a stickler for definitions such as yourself will appreciate Merriam-Webster's definition of the term which defines to escape (the verb) as "to get away" or "to avoid a threatening evil". Alas, it seems that your excellent education failed to equip you with the basic capabilities of distinguishing the difference between "reading" and "reading into".

"I would much rather prefer to discuss these issues with people who aren't paid to be here to push the Republic of Croatia's alleged anti-fascist political agenda; who have legitimate Western educations and actually know how to communicate in the English language."

• Contrary to your belief, Wikipedia is not a forum. The purpose of this page is not to discuss issues regarding the topic, but issues regarding the article. If you are unable or unwilling to contribute to the article in a constructive manner (and btw I have yet to see any reliable source or reference for anything you cared to share with us here) then you are NOT doing anything constructive for the project. You have been kindly asked to follow Wikipedia's policies on more than one occasion, but you have stubbornly ignored every piece of advice given. Not only are you using this talk page as a soapbox, you are also incapable of expressing a minimum level of civility towards other editors. Long story short - we would all much rather prefer to discuss this article with Wikipedia editors who abide by Wikipedia policies. Please don't bother posting here again unless you have a reliable reference for whatever you want to claim. Timbouctou 03:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

A discussion page on wikipedia actually is a forum, that's precisely what a forum is. What I have written here specifically addresses the article which is not by any means neutral. I don't see the point in sourcing anything because between yourself and another user in particular - there is a totalitarian method of editing here specifically on NDH and yugoslavia related articles with a specific agenda at hand. I'm not going to waste my time here for now as I need to wait for modern studies on such matters to accumulate and by that time maybe you too will know something about NDH and or international policies; as so far you have demonstrated nothing beyond what kids in grades 4 to 8 learned in SFRY. Note to you, the Ustasa Movement was not the HSP and neither were allowed to legally act within the totalitarian Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The legitimacy of the HSS laid within the fact that it was the only party which was able to act freely within the democratic process after the pronunciation of the January 6th dictatorship. The Ustasa Movement was more involved secretly however within Croatia than it was in exile, and this is pointed out by the modern day guru of the pre-war Ustasa movement Mario Jareb.AP1929 (talk) 05:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

AP (who derives his user name from the founding year and leader-initials of a decidedly fascist totalitarian party :) generally likes to accuse all users who oppose him of "totalitarianism". Communist conspiracies will likely follow. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

You came to those conclusions yourself, and if you're going to accuse me of the former, know that the Ustasa movement was neither fascist nor a political party. The only person that worships totalitarianism and fascism (red fascism) and totalitarian dictators is you.AP1929 (talk) 16:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yugoslav

Someone added Yugoslav fascist leader, but the fact is, Yugoslavia had no fascist leader, except maybe Prince Pavle.

See here what Wikipedia says about Vlassov: "General Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov or Wlassow (Russian: Андрéй Андрéевич Влáсов, September 14 [O.S. September 1] 1900 — August 2, 1946) was a Russian former Soviet Army general who collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II.[1]"

So, as we can notice, he wasn't Soviet general, but Russian, even though, formaly, Russia didn't existed, but since we can't say he was a Soviet (chap was highly anti-communist and pro-Russian), we say Russian (becouse he was highly pro-Russian and Russian nationalist). I don't know how people can't understand so simple thing.

Adding Yugoslav fascist leader is nonsense, firstly it is not referenced, secondly how could he be Yugoslav fascist leader (maybe he represented Greater Yugoslavia, who knows?), and the most importantly he was highly anti-Yugoslav and higly pro-Croatian.

And adding nonsenses like this makes Wikipedia bad reputation, or political playground, so stop it.--Wustefuchs (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Secon thing. Section "Nationality" in infobox is highly unsourced, becouse Pavelić had many citizenships (and nationality isn't always necessary a citizenship, it can also be a ethnicity). Pavelić was, by citizenship, Austrian-Hungarian, Yugoslav, Croatian and Argentinian. His latest citizenship was Argentinian so... why should we write about his "nationality". And another thing about this, it makes article unstable, and, nobody sees him as Yugoslav in literature or anywhere and he had so many "nationalities". And my proposal is voting about that we erase "Nationality" section from infobox. Vote "yes" if you agree to be erased and vote "no" if you don't want it to be erased.

1. Yes--Wustefuchs (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. What is the point of this? If I had a nickel for each time I've seen this rhetorical ploy employed... xD Post a "vote" you just invented, and WP:CANVASS all the folks you think will vote your way. It is not so easy to circumvent sources and actual discussion, Erwin.

This is not how things are done on Wikipedia. I certainly won't accept any "vote" as an argument under any circumstances regardless of the outcome (per guidelines). I do however accept that the current lead is ambiguous so, rather than voting, I suggest we find a less ambiguous phrasing that does not make him sound like a "Yugoslav fascist leader" and mentions that he was a Yugoslav as well as Croatian politician.
As for the infobox, I don't think a global plebiscite on the question would do much to erase sourced historical facts. :) It will be a cold day down under when members of the Yugoslav Parliament cannot be described as Yugoslav citizens on enWiki... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

My friend, then we sort that out very easly, just watch.--Wustefuchs (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you will also agree when I say that nationality can mean so many things, while citizenship is more correct. So I just changed nationality to citizenship, we all happy now?--Wustefuchs (talk) 16:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Another thing, it seams you are not completly aware what nationality means. Nationality is membership to a nation or in some state, so Pavelić is by nationality Croat.--Wustefuchs (talk) 17:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Assume good faith and adjust your tone accordingly, DIREKTOR. It seems to me that the issue is not whether AP was a Yugoslav national (he clearly was) but whether to include the fact in the infobox. Since we also know he held several other nationalities (in addition to "Croatian" if you count NDH) we are unlikely ever to arrive to an infobox-appropriate formulation which would be useful to our readers. Biography infoboxes are supposed to represent short summaries of vital pieces of information about a person - they are not considered article subsections themselves ad it is standard practice that if a bit of information requires a lenghty explanation the parameter referring to it should either be dropped altogether or it should link to a separate section of the article where this is discussed in more detail. If we select one of several possible nationalities we risk to make it look misleading. If we list all of them without explaining it further then it defeats the whole purpose of the infobox. I see no point in insisting on keeping this bit of information in the infobox (for comparison most biographies of Croats who were born in Croatia when it was part of Austria-Hungary DO NOT list them as "Austro-Hungarian" nationals - in most cases we simply omit that parameter). If you really want to be pedantic about it than Josip Broz Tito's infobox should state that his nationality was Austro-Hungarian (1892-1918) and Yugoslav (1918-1980) similar to what you can see in the Adolf Hitler article, and AP's entry should then list Austria-Hungary (1889-1918), Yugoslavia (1918-1959) and Croatia (1941-1945).
• Regarding the succession boxes mess - again, there are issues with them which defeat their purpose. I have yet to find out what exactly was the "Poglavnik"'s role in the administration of NDH. All Wustefuchs can come up with are references to the fact that he was indeed referred to as such but this does not shed any light on what being Poglavnik legally meant. We already had this discussion earlier and I thought that the previous version (before your "fixes") was the best way to present available information. The "fixed" version makes no sense and is totally confusing to an average reader (so according to the current version a reader may think that Aimone was prince designate before 1941 and Mandić assumed his Prime Minister office in 1945). Also, I find it ironic that you insist on describing AP as a Yugoslav national and supporting it with the fact that he was member of the Yugoslav parliament, but you refuse to put in the word "Yugoslav" in the "Member of Parliament" succession box (or the infobox for that matter). Any reader who skims through he article will automatically assume that he was MP in the same country he was later head of, and because of that will be puzzled by the "Yugoslav national" entry. Instead of exchanging demeaning remarks in the talk page this should be dealt with a new Template:S-par parameter for the Yugoslav National Assembly. This leaves the issue of his successors and predecessors in the parliament seat. I assume there were no successors as the parliament was disbanded in 1929. As for predecessors, we would need a referenced source to claim what constituency he was elected to parliament from and include his predecessors from that constituency (presumably the ones who won seats in the 1925 election). Until we get that kind of information, a succession box saying that he was succeeded and preceded by question marks doesn't really add anything to the article. (And if the Yugoslav election system was anything similar to what we have in Croatia today (proportional representation with people elected from party lists), the succession box probably is not appropriate at all, which is also the reason why we don't have any for members of the modern Croatian parliament).
• @ Wustefuchs: Yes, nationality means "mebership of a nation" and "nation" is defined as a "politically organized people" and "people" is an ethnic category defined as a group of person sharing the same language, culture, etc (e.g. it's synonymous with "ethnicity"). That's the reason why there are millions of Kurds and Basques in the world, but not a single one of them could be described as a Kurdish or Basque national, at least not until independent Kurdish or Basque countries come into existence. In Pavelić's case Croats (the people) were politically organized (e.g. had a nation state) only between 1941 and 1945 and it would make sense to list him as a Croatian national only for that period. A baby born in Zagreb in 1942 and who died in 1944 would be a "Croatian national" only, but anyone who lived here before or after NDH is considered to have had other superseding nationalities before 1941 and after 1945 (Austro-Hungarian and/or Yugoslav). There are many persons living in Croatia today who were born in the early 1940s in the Italian-occupied Dalmatia or in Istria and I know for a fact that they had the option to be listed as being born as Italian nationals in the 2001 Croatian census. Timbouctou 17:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

We agree in in almost everything you said now. Like I said, the best option would be if we would erase "nationality" and "citizenship" becouse that isn't so important. Why it is not important? Becouse it is not constructive in any way, moreover, reader can get impression, by reading, that Pavelić was Yugoslav extremist, a Yugoslav fascist, just by reading a infobox or begining of the aricle when it was stated "Croatian and Yugoslav fascist leader". I even think that we should erase ethnicity and his religion, becouse that can't tell about person very much. It is clearly he was a Croat, jut by reading the article, not importaint in wich way. And about his Catholicism, he was inactive catholic who stated that he would convert to orthodoxy if Orthodox people of Croatia would become Croats. heh. But, we will do all that later.

So, my point is, why to keep his "citizenship" or "nationality" when he had so many, he was Austrian-Hungarian, Yugoslav, Argentinian, Croat. Funny thing would be if we would put Yugoslav in Tuđman's infobox or for Adolf Hitler that he was Austrian-Hungarian. And even if we would follow his latest nationality, he would remain Argentinian. DIREKTOR stated that the proof he was a citizen of communist Yugoslavia is that they asked from Argentina his extradition, but Adolf Eichman was extradited to Israel, and even judged in Israel.--Wustefuchs (talk) 21:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I did Assume good faith, and my tone was just normal. I thought I had a good idea by changing nationality to citizenship, and so I "stabilized" the infobox for a while, that's why I said "just watch"... not threat... :)--Wustefuchs (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Adolf Eichman was not extradited to Israel and could not have been be extradited to Israel, he was smuggled out in great secrecy by the Mossad. I think they even made a film about that.

Wustefuchs, there is really no disputing he was a Yugoslav "national". What else was he? An NDH citizen?? xP If you can show he was a Spanish or Italian or Argentinian citizen/subject I will concede the point.

While I do applaud your ingenious stroke in the infobox, I do not see any solution for the lead problem... AP was a Yugoslav politician. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

I think this deserves a special section.

About that average reader could get confused with this Poglavnik, PM, Monarch etc. I suggest that we erase Mandić as succesor and maybe we also can erase monarch.

• Monarch didn't had so much authority, but also de iure he was a king, but only until 1943... so I'm still confused about this.

• Mandić didn't inheirt him as Poglavnik, but he remained Prime Minister, a de facto leader of Croatia when Poglavnik flee the country.--Wustefuchs (talk) 22:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The king-designate definitely stays, Pavelić himself invited him into the position. As for Mandić... he did succeed him in the function of prime minister so as these sort of infoboxes go he should stay as well I think... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I suggested this becouse someone could get confused becouse of that "Prime Minister".--Wustefuchs (talk) 15:41, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Then I hope this is the end of editing the infobox...--Wustefuchs (talk) 15:42, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

No it is not as we still haven't solved the Poglavnik issue. The dedicated article clams that the title meant prime minister 1941-43 and head of state 1943-45 (e.g. the two offices seems to have never been united in the title of Poglavnik). This should be reflected in the infobox with separate entries for head of state and prime minister roles, and the same should be done with the infobox. In fact, according to historical records the only tangible thing that Poglavnik's office actually meant was "head of the ustaše movement" - which means an additional entry for his role as Ustaše leader is needed and that entry alone should use the title Poglavnik (preferably linking to the Poglavnik article). Also, a stub about Bradina should be created (I'm not happy with the piped link pointing to Konjic) and his party memberships should be listed chronologically with the latest on top and earliest on bottom. Also, he was never a member of HSP but HČSP and this should be corrected. Changing "Member of Parliament" to "Member of the Yugoslav National Assembly" would also be helpful as the current formulation is misleading to readers. Also, I'd like to see a reference for the claim that he was Roman Catholic. Timbouctou 16:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

At this time I would like to point out the difference between "misleading" and "unspecific", because I think you mean the latter. The entry in no way suggests in which parliament he served so it cannot, by definition, be "misleading".

The title of the office he occupied was "Poslanik" (lit. "emissary"), which in English is always translated as "Member of Parliament". We really cannot invent titles such as "Member of Parliament of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes" here. Two more notes: 1) Listing his prime minister in no way means he was subordinate to him; 2) I'll leave the "Poglavnik" issue to Wastefox. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe you are mixing up "clarification" and "invention". Saying that he was member of parliament X is in no way WP:OR. We are not inventing anything if we are avoiding confusion that an average reader might experience. When in doubt it is always better to include a few extra words than to deal with comments by misinformed readers on this talk page down the line, which will be caused by us blindly following the established convention. The convention used on Wikipedia certainly was not designed to deal with people who were members of parliament in on country and then heads of state in another. Hypothetically, what would DIREKTOR do if he had to make an infobox for a person who at different times served in both the modern Croatian and Bosnian parliaments (which is a theoretical possibility). You would just list "Member of Parliament" twice? How informative. Also, "unspecific" IS "misleading" in this case. We should be idiots not to understand that readers will inevitably make a wrong assumption BECAUSE we insist on ambiguous wording. The reader automatically assumes that if no other determiner is used that MP naturally refers to the parliament of the country of his nationality. Besides, how would you, a fan of commonly used translations of offices held, explain FULL parliament and assembly names used in Template:S-par? Timbouctou 17:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll ignore this Waste-Fox. AP was named Poglavnik of the Ustaša Movement when he found his revolutionary organization in Italy. With proclamation of NDH in proclamation of Slavko Kvaternik from April 10, 1941 he was also named Poglavnik. Now, ther was never a definition by Constitution or by some law what Poglavnik realy means, but it is very known that he named Government, hold all state power in his hands. Between 1941 and 1943 in newspapers, on television, on parades he is refered as Poglavnik also. When king Tomislav abdicated he formaly becomed Head of State and he continued to hold title of Poglavnik, and at the same time he named Nikola Mandić as Prime Minister (Predsjednik Vlade).--Wustefuchs (talk) 16:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

If we are to be encyclopedic than we must stick with what the formal role of Poglavnik was. Sure, he was referred to as "Poglavnik" by the media and everyone else, but like you said, the title was NOT based on any law passed by NDH. In that sense it was nothing more than a nickname. NDH had a head of state (referred to as such) and it had a prime minister (also referred to as such) throughout its existence, and it would have continued to have them even if Ante happened to have been killed before the end of the War, although the persons who would have replaced him probably wouldn't have been referred to as "Poglavnik". The only legal meaning of the term is actually "Leader of UHRO" and that is exactly what we should tell the readers. Timbouctou 17:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

@Timbouctou. The infobox entry "title=" is for "titles", not clarifications. "Member of Parliament of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes" is not a title. What is there to discuss? By your definition of "misleading" every title in existence should carry the name of the state in it for Wikipedia purposes.

The reason why we don't use states in titles is because in most cases we don't need to (we don't need to specifically say that a French politician was member of the French parliament). But this case is different and we should. Also, you are completely right about "every title in existence carrying the name of the state in it for Wikipedia purposes". Also, if I choose to discuss things DIREKTOR-style I could use your argument and extend it ad absurdum to fit my purpose and suggest that the whole Category:Representatives in the Yugoslav National Assembly (1921–1941) is pointless and should be merged into Category:Members of Parliaments (because hey - it's always translated that way). In fact the more I think about this I'm becoming more convinced that the same formatting with the assembly name (or at least a demonym) should be used for ALL the people who were at some point members of defunct parliaments and assemblies in former Yugoslavia. And btw you did not reply what would you do with an article about a person who served in several different parliaments sme of which are defunct (like many Yugoslav politicians did) or in several present-day parliaments (like many Bosnian Croat politicians potentially could). Timbouctou 19:19, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The "title=" infobox entry uses the official title alone, without "clarifications". Wikipedia categories are supposed to have names that disambiguate between each other. Your ad absurdum is absurd :). Your whole argument above was based on the claim that it is "misleading", which is demonstrably not so since the entry mentions no country whatsoever, and even lists Alexander I of Yugoslavia as monarch. Its an infobox, Tim, its not supposed to explain everything. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

@Wustefuchs. The noun "waste" in its primary meaning is a synonym for "desert". A more literal translation of "Wüstenfuchs" would be "Wastefox" ("wüste" = "waste" = "desert"). I had not meant it as a provocation. (Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Field Marshal Rommel's nom de guerre was "Wüstenfuchs", rather than "Wüstefuchs" :)

--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 19:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's WusteNfuchs, but I forgot to add "n" when I registrated to Wikipedia, so I have unicate name now. Ok, I get it now, no problem.--Wustefuchs (talk) 11:15, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

To get back on the subject. Neither his title "Prime Minister" was described in any law or Constitution. Only king and Mandić had described titles by the law. Pavelić was de facto leader or Poglavnik of NDH. Like you said if someone would succeed him during the war he wouldn't have title of Poglavnik, well ofcourse he wouldn't. Same thing with Adolf Hitler, the Führer was succeeded by Karl Dönitz with title Reichspräsident.--Wustefuchs (talk) 11:21, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

And not to forgot, Hitler was de iure Reichskanzler and Reichspräsident, but still, refered as Führer.--Wustefuchs (talk) 11:26, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

No. His official title was "Führer" as well. It was not an informal form of address. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:38, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Is it? Can you show which article of the Reichs' Constitution describes duties of Fuhrer? But that is not even so ipmortant.

Ther are many documents from 1941 to 1943 wher Pavelić brings a variety of laws signed as "Poglavnik, dr. Ante Pavelić". One of those documents is Provision for orders, medals and decorations of the Independent State of Croatia for Military Order of the Iron Trefoil declared on 27 December 1941 wher Pavelić signed a provision as Poglavnik Nezavisne Države Hrvatske Dr. ANTE PAVELIĆ v. r. ( Polavnik of the Independent State of Croatia Dr. ANTE PAVELIĆ v. R.) He signed this togehter with dr. Mirko Puk, Minister of Justice and Worship.--Wustefuchs (talk) 19:57, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Number of victims

At the beginning of the aricle it is stated that he is responsible for deah of hundreds of thousends people in concentration camps. Now, this is the list of NDH concentration camps and number of victoms:

• Jasenovac - 77,743-100,000 (we can say around 85,000)
  • This source says that ther was 77,743 victims in Jasenovac http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm#Jasenovac Death Tolls for the Man-made Megadeaths of the 20th Century. 100,000 says BBC over here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/1673249.stm , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4479837.stm .
  • Franjo Tuđman stated that ther was between 60,000-70,000 victims
  • Slavko Goldstein stated that ther was between 60,000-90,000 victims
  • Bogoljub Kovčić stated tat ther was 70,000
  • Vladimir Žerjavić stated 83,000
  • Centar Simon Wiesenthal estimated around 85,000 vitims

• Jaovno - 30,000-40,000
  • http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Hrvatska/tabid/66/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/107424/Default.aspx

• Stara Gradiška (part of Jasenovac) - 12,790-75,000
  • Jelka Smreka, Gradiška, ustaški koncentracijski logor
  • Davor Kovačić, Iskapanja na prostoru logora Stara Gradiška i procjena broja žrtava

• Pag - 8,500
• Đakovo - 3,500
• Jastrebarsko - 1,018
• Lepoglava - 1000

If we count all numbers of victms from those camps (I'll take the highest numbers) then we got 228,518 victms not hundreds of thousends, but two hundred twenty-two thousand and five hundred and eighteen victms.

Besides that people died elsewhere, as I stated in my earlier edit, and ther was around 300,000 and 350,000 Serbs killed in total (including the camp): Ustašas very rearly killed Jews and Roma outsied of camps, and total number of dead inocent Jews in NDH is, acconring to Slavko Goldstein is 39,500, and according to Žerjavić between 25,800-26,700. Number of dead Roma is around 10,000

So when we collect all that numbers we got around, as I said 300,000-350,000 maybe 370,000-380,000 victms, that are inocent (that is not partisans, not criminals not soldiers of any side).--Wustefuchs (talk) 21:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Hm. I hope you understand, Wustefuchs, this is a HUGE issue. We are absolutely not allowed to research or "add-up" the victims in the manner above - that constitutes WP:OR. Not only that, but the professional sources on this issue differ hugely on their total sum, and may I add what you have there are (unfortunately) the lower estimates.

I myself would start by trying to see what prof. Tomasevich has to say on the numbers. He generally does not utter a word without a ton of sources and a thorough objective evaluation... In any event I would seriously recommend we drop this for now. Its not a discussion for this article anyway, but for the NDH article itself. It would be necessary to open a new section on the talkpage there, probably post an RfM, invite other users, etc etc.. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not a big issue, but hundrits of thousends are many numbers. But you call on WP:OR, so I have nothing to do. And maybe this is place for article about NDH, so we can close this question for some time.--Wustefuchs (talk) 00:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

There's really no question at all that it is indeed a big issue. There is no question that it is hotly debated and disputed. I will also politely add that you should have already known about WP:OR yourself, thus eliminating the need for someone to "call on it". We generally do not follow policy only when it is "called on". --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

A discussion about the number of victims of Ustaše crimes is a big one. Numerous times contradicting numbers were presented on Wikipedia and fiercely quarreled over by nationalists. The numbers range between ridiculous extremes, from 70,000 to 700,000. Do this properly or don't do it at all. I myself suggest that you spare us all a repeat performance and simply leave the text at "hundreds of thousands", which seems accurate by most accounts. (Then again your perception of myself as some sort of an "adversary" may well prompt you to deliberately go against my advice - reverse psychology. C'est la vie... :))).

I will however say that your introduction is such accurate numbers is, at least, never going to stick. A proper estimate there simply has to be a synthesis of at least several studies, giving a range of numbers, exempli gratia "100,000-300,000"... The proper approach would be to try to find independent, non-ex-Yugoslav professional authors, published by reliable university presses, gather them here and display the data as it is uncovered. I however feel your research on this subject may be a tad biased in that you may simply be unwilling to present too high estimates. Am I being paranoid? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 03:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I won't say you are paranoid. But total number of victims in Yugoslavia, during the World War II is:

• Serbs - 487,000
• Croats - 207,000
• Bosniaks - 86,000
• Jews - 60,000
• Montenegrins - 50,000
• Slovenes - 30,000

Total - about 947,000 South Slavs

(Numbers are according to Ivo Goldstein)

On the other hand Yugoslav Federal Bureu, trying to drain the money from West Germany represented 1,671,000 victims (!). Germany refused to pay, so, very funny thing, they halved number of victims to get money, so in 1964 they represented in total 509,849 vitims.

• Serbs

It is clearly that Ustaše didn't kill all of those people, so, according to Ivo Goldstein and Bideleux's book (not my own research) on terittory of NDH (not whole Yugoslavia) lived 2,1 milion of Serbs. 330,000 of those Serbs perished and 217,000 perished as victims of fascist terror. Of that, 124,000 in their towns and villages; 93,000 in concentration camps; 82,000 as partisans (not crime to kill partisans, so we don't count those), 23,000 as member of Chetniks (killed by Ustaše and partisans, also we don't count them as crime).

• Croats (Bosniaks included)

3.4 milions of Craots lived on terittory of NDH, 135,000 perished; 46,000 as partisans (again, not crime) and 19,000 in camps. 70,000 of Croats were killed by partisans.

Again, I'll say, this is not my own research but research of Ivo Goldstein and by book of Robert Bideleux named The Balkans: a post-communist history on page 191. --Wustefuchs (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

A great many problems there.

• First and foremost: you posses no information on the actual victims of the Ustaše. Merely on "fascist terror". Need it be said here that the troops that actually did most of the real fighting for the Axis were (as usual) the Germans? "Fascist terror" can mean Prinz Eugen SS and Whermacht victims, far more than the Ustaše, who were actually a rather small military force (the Home Guard were large but practically useless, and mostly served as static defensive units). The bottom line is: we can discern nothing from the above numbers.
• I am suspicious as to the number of "70,000" dead Croats at the hands of the Partisans, can we see some corroboration? It does not fit, in which capacity were they killed?
• Is it a "crime" to kill Partisans? Why, yes. Lets not lose sight of the legal situation. The Partisans were the legal military of the (universally recognized) "Democratic Federal Yugoslavia". Ustaše members were rebels (in fact their name translates as "rebels"), the fifth column - they were not enemy combatants. So rebel citizens of Yugoslavia killing Yugoslav soldiers are indeed guilty of high treason and murder. Furthermore, Partisans prisoners and wounded were almost without exception executed on the spot by Ustaše. The Partisan death toll should be added without a doubt to the number of deaths. Chetniks should probably also be counted.
• Goldstein is just one of MANY authors that published such numbers. We cannot possibly write anything without additional sources.

--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 19:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

• Well, I qouted the book and wrote fascist terror, but how many people did killed "Prinz Eugen" division on terittory of NDH? Only a small number of people. Their main activity was in Serbia and Montenegro. And most of crimes comited in NDH was by Ustaše. We all know that Germans carried out mass murdering of Jews and Serbs along with Hungarians mostly in Banate and Vojvodina (not terittory of NDH).

• Well, this number of 70,000 dead Croats murdered by the partisans is also quotation from the book, and since it is not important to the article we have no need to discuss it... agree?

• And I said it is not a crime to kill a partisan. Recognized as a legal army or not, it is not crime (If they are recognized it is not crime becouse it was a war, and if not recognized [they weren't at first, I think they were recognized as allies at Teheran Conferetion in December 1943] they were only a rebels. But you should know that rebels are also considered as an army and should be treathed as a regular army (but rebels also need to be organize as an army, not bunch of terrists).

• You have also a source from Yugoslav Federal Buereu from 1964: 509,849 vitims in total (that is, in whole Yugoslavia).--Wustefuchs (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

• Its not just the 7th SS Prinz Eugen, I just mentioned them to differentiate from the Wehrmacht. Like I said, we have no way to discern how many of the victims of "fascist terror" were actually Ustaše victims, and not Italian or German victims. It is not something we can ignore.
• Agreed.
• Killing Partisans is indeed a "crime" in legal terms. Note: the sentence "it was a war" means absolutely nothing with regard to the Ustaše. The Germans were at war with Yugoslavia, the Ustaše were Yugoslav civilians in revolt and collaborating with the enemy (fifth column). They were NOT, under any circumstances, considered enemy combatants at war with the Allies. You're right, though, strictly speaking we should try to find out how many the Ustaše killed AFTER November 1943, but its a far bigger error to exclude the Yugoslav military entirely.
• Does the last source refer to Ustaše victims?

--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 02:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Well, Italians and Wehrmacht didn't killed significant number of civilians. But crimes in NDH were commited by Ustaše, Yugoslav partisans and Chetniks, mainly. And we are talking only about Ustaše crimes.
• And no, it's not a crime, especially in battle. We aren't talking about POWs. According to Geneva Conventions "Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall, at all times, be humanely treated, and shall be protected, especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity... ...Without prejudice to the provisions relating to their state of health, age and sex, all protected persons shall be treated with the same consideration by the Party to the conflict in whose power they are, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, religion or political opinion. However, the Parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war."

We are talking about the parties of the conflict, rebbels or not, ustaše or partisans, all the same. War is not a crime, killing POWs is diiferent story.--Wustefuchs (talk) 10:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, Kingdom of Yugoslavia and Independent State of Croatia had declared a state of war, that is very important. So officially, in both states, the war was conducted.--Wustefuchs (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I refuse to repeat myself constantly.

• Quite simply: no. Not all crimes in the NDH were committed by the Ustaše, not by a long shot. Find real information.
• This is really getting ridiculous. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: they were legally not combatants, but civilians. The Geneva Conventions have absolutely nothing to do with this. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I must agree with you, this is getting ridiculous. If so, only Chetniks were legal army in Yugoslavia, and all big battles of partisans was led by bunch of civilians (until december 1943). Heh... no energy to disscus any more.--Wustefuchs (talk) 17:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

And to tell you. US, Brits an' all allies were at war with NDH officialy. And NDH wasn't at war with SSSR, that's the reason Red Army never entered NDH, but they led partisans to advence. They didn't enter, becouse, officialy, Soviet Union wasn't at war with NDH, same reason, NDH couldn't send Croatian uniformed soldiers but volunteers in German uniforms. You, I hope, understand what means part of conflict.

Same reason, why Republic of Croatia declared Bleiburg masscre a crime against humanty - Partisans didn't respect Geneva Conventions about the POWs.

And to me, it seams you are playing legal farce lol. Look at this way, Croatian Parliament never officialy recongized Kingdom of Yugoslavia, then they are, officialy ocupators, and Ustaše are freedom fighters that is, they led Resistance movement. At least, NDH was recognized by Croatiam Parliament. :)--Wustefuchs (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

• There really isn't much to say. You are unable to understand that I'm speaking from a legal, de jure standpoint. De facto the Ustaše, and yes the Partisans before 1943, were indeed military organizations, but legally they were civilians. Both of them. The Partisans were quite illegal indeed before Tehran. How anyone could possibly contest all this is beyond me...
  This is exactly why nobody was persecuted by international WWII crimes tribunals for Bleiburg or for the Soviet massacre of the Cossacks. They were all legally Yugoslav and Soviet citizens, civilians summarily executed for high treason during wartime. This in not to in any way diminish the horror of either of the two events, mind you

• No. The Allies never diplomatically recognized the NDH, and did at no point declare war on it. To do so would be an utter fiasco. They fought the Ustaše, sure, just as they fought all Axis fifth column troops, but this has nothing to do with recognition. You have a lot to learn about this topic, methinks. The Red Army left Yugoslavia after assisting in the Belgrade Operation. They entered because the Partisans were no good at urban warfare and could not take Belgrade on their own. They left because Yugoslav Prime Minister Tito had Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin had agreed that they would do so some months before in their meeting where they agreed on all the details of Soviet involvement on Yugoslav territory. The very idea that they did not enter the NDH because they were "at peace"(!) with a fascist Axis puppet they never even recognized is such unimaginable nonsense its almost funny.

• @"The Croatian Parliament never officialy recongized Kingdom of Yugoslavia". As I suspected, you have a lot to learn about this stuff. This is exactly the sort of uninformed nonsense I exepected to hear at some point.
  The Parliament of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia voted to merge into the National Assembly of the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, legally transferring all its powers and authority into that body, and then joined it. The National Assembly then voted to merge with the Kingdom of Serbia into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Kingdom of Yugoslavia).Therefore:
  • When the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was created, the Sabor had dissolved itself for several months. Apart from the fact that the Sabor had transferred its powers to the National Assembly, its members were a part of the National Assembly when it voted (virtually unanimously) to unite with Serbia.
    It may be interesting to note that this particular myth, which has absolutely nothing to do with the facts, was invented by the Ustaše and used in their propaganda.
  • It may also be interesting that the "Parliament of Croatia" did not even exist at the time. What is roughly today's Croatia was represented by the Sabor of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia and also by the Diet of the Kingdom of Dalmatia (which also joined the National Assembly and voted overwhelmingly for the merge).

Nonsense on so many levels. Of teh quality of wartime propaganda, in essence... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 19:28, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

National Assemby didn't vote anything, that's the fact, but they sent delegation to Belgrade, you should know that...

Ok, that isn't even the point... we were talking what is crime, and what's not. If you have your source for number of victims, that is hundreds of thousands, then, please add it, if not, then I'll change that soon.--Wustefuchs (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's get to the case:

Book of Vladimir Žerjavić, named "Yugoslavia - Manipulations with the number of Second World War victims, published by Croatian Information Centre has numbers of people killed by Ustaše and Gemrans. It goes like this:

Victims	Number
Total	322,000
Partisans	82,000
Colaborators (Ustaše, Chetniks etc.)	23,000
Taken to the German camp in Zemun	20,000
Died of typhoid	25,000
Killed by Germans	45,000
Killed by Italians	15,000
Civilians killed in battles led by Ustaše, partisans and Chetniks	34,000
Killed in prisons, pits and other camps	28,000
Killed in Jasenovac-Gradina camp	50,000

Now, we see that numbers are around 300,000-350,000 by every source.--Wustefuchs (talk) 20:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Those don't give number of more then 300,000 killed Serbs (inocent civilians), but much, much less. So, I think that source of Goldstein of 217,000 dead Serbs is good. We can also add to the sentence died on terittory on NDH, and not to mention killed by whom....--Wustefuchs (talk) 20:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, Žerjavić, UN's expert, found 197,000 killed Serb civilians. So Goldstein's and Žerjavić's numbers are very, very close - 217,000 and 197,000. More then that is impossible. You should forget the old manipulative, propaganda books and investigations by former communist Yugoslavia about 1,704,000 killed so they can, as Kardelj stated, get more reparations. lol.--Wustefuchs (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sigh... I love those word-games. They voted to send a delegation to Belgrade in order to merge with Serbia. That was the decision. They did not have a choice, really, Radić was a moron to "oppose" that. The State of SHS had no international recognition and was already occupied by the Italian and Serbian army, if they did not vote the Serbs and Italians would simply have partitioned Yugoslavia. We'd be living in "Serbia" and Italy right now, good call Radić! :) The Italians were really pissed anyway they did not get Dalmatia.

The bottom line is: check the facts, look-up the data. We're so flooded with nationalist nonsense here in Croatia very few people actually know their own history. Croats did genuinely want to join into a Yugoslav state, it was the culmination of a century-old national goal of the Illyrians, e.g. Zagreb's Yugoslav Academy of Sciences and Arts. The fact that the Serbs ruled the new state and tried to Serbianize everybody :), essentially ruining the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, is a different matter entirely (though the Banovina of Croatia was eventually created, so..).

To business, though, you're right. Again, the two problems:

• That is for both the Ustaše AND Germans. The two may be impossible to separate since the Ustaše were under Wehrmacht command. This means we will have to mention that this is Ustaše AND Germans in the text if we are going to include this.
• I see the data, but its Croatian data. We need more sources, independent ones. For example: the Jasenovac victim count. Here you can read all about that [1]. "50,000" is the LOWEST known estimate, see especially the victim lists. I'm frankly not convinced Žerjavić is 100% neutral, or to be more clear, I think we need more, independent sources concerning total Ustaše victims. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, for the first number from wikipedia (600,000) is sourced by Yad Vashem, and they are, I will be polite, bad source. Becouse they officialy stated Ustaše murders in Jasenovac 600,000 people, and also, officialy, stated, that in total Ustaše killed 500,000 people. So, we can just ignore them.

Žerjavić's source about Jasenovac I don't whant to comment, I just qouted him from his book. Also, we should ignore research from communist time. They weren't very stabile about the numbers, they had habit of changing that te get more reparations. And let's stick to the some foreign historians (even though, Žerjavić is good enoguh, former partisan, Communist Party member, worked earlier with the number of victims for Yugoslavia, UN's expert), like example, a very good source, Simon Wiesenthal Center, says it was 85,000 dead, and I bealive that this is very good estimate, becouse it can be good compared with Tuđman's (60,000-70,000), Goldstein's (60,000-90,000), Kovčić's (70,000), Žerjavić's (very close 83,000)... Most sources say between 60,000 to 85,000-100,000 (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum) all other is exaggeration.

But, our problem isn't Jasenovac, but total number, and yes, we will also write that they were killed on terittory of NDH by Ustaše and their Axis allies (or something like that). And only historians who deal with people killed on terittory of NDH are Croatian or Serbian historians, so it is almost imposibble to find British, Russian or Georgian historian who will dedicate his book to this. But I did add foreign source, qotation from book of Robert Bideleux, he is French I think (like it's important). Croatian sources are very good, I hope you are not thinking that Croatian historians are lower class then others and that you don't think Goldstain and Žerjavić are being subjective to NDH or something.--Wustefuchs (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok, now, I'll add information about number in total (Serbs, Jews, Roma etc) at the beginning, and add number of dead Serbs at the bottom of the article. Also, I'll add that they were killed on terittory of NDH by Ustaše and their allies, we agreed on this, didn't we?--Wustefuchs (talk) 18:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I neglected this thread, as you can see we have a real situation with the Chetniks over there... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Blatant Forgery

Ante Pavelić (14 July 1889 – 28 December 1959) was a Croatian fascist leader,[1] revolutionary,[2] ...

Revolutionary?!

Read the referenced article here

--166.32.193.81 (talk) 18:04, 28 January 2011 (UTC)