Talk:Rockefeller family

Neutrality in question

"The members of the Rockefeller family are noted for their philanthropy simultaneously with their genocidal and eugenic philosophies, which is inherently an irreconcilable contradiction; a Rockefeller Archive Center study in 2004 documents an incomplete list of 72 major institutions that the family has created and/or endowed up to the present day, though using money created with the fractional reserve banking system, which manufactures it from thin air, forcing the rest of society to pay with inflation. These organizations have served as the fronts through which the Rockefellers have operated their philosophy of depopulation (read: murder) and population genetics ideals."

"The family is also known for its long association with and financial interest in the Chase Manhattan Bank, now JP Morgan Chase. The family also has also been involved in multiple treasonous acts in order to push forward the New World Order agenda. The family's fortune is estimated to be between $130 billion and $13 trillion dollars, enough to buy half the world's countries and enough to buy off politicians, bankers, and corporations in order to push forward the family's fascist agenda."

From the first part of the article.

Name - french origin?

The name is not French Origin, it is German. It came from Rockenfeld, Germany and the name originated as Rockenfeller. It was then changed to Rockefeller when Johann Peter Rockenfeller Jr. came to the U.S. He was born in Segendorf, Westerwald, Germany, on March 22, 1711, and died in about 1787 in Hunterdon County, New Jersey. He had 9 children. How do I know all of this, my last name is Rockefeller and I have whole family tree dating back to Germany in the origination in Rockenfeld, Germany. So trust me, it is not a French name.

I already referenced Scheiffarth, Engelbert. "Der New Yorker Gouverneur Nelson A. Rockefeller und die Rockenfeller im Neuwieder Raum." Genealogisches Jahrbuch, vol. 9, 1969, pp. 16-41, which states that the paragraph starting with

However, it is sometimes stated that the Rockefeller surname originated from the Roquefeuille,...

is wrong, more details below. If there is no reliable source given I would suggest to remove the paragraph.

Furthermore I would like to know whether the statement

Johann Peter immigrated to New Jersey from the German Palatinate in 1723

is sourced anywhere. --Dagox (talk) 11:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed the following paragraphs as no citations were given and they at least partially contradict with the sources given

However, it is sometimes stated that the Rockefeller surname originated from the Roquefeuille, from the 
region of Limousin,   France. If true, that may explain why they were located in the 
Midwest, where most of the French immigrants settled. This New France, which consisted of 15 states 
north of Louisiana, was home to more than 150,000  Frenchmen and women in 1803 
when Louisiana was sold to the USA. In France, the version Roquefeuille is also known as a family name. 
Back in the 16th century, some French nobles were Protestant and fled the absolutist Catholic regime 
to go to Germany. They dispersed throughout the German kingdoms and Switzerland. This is generally the 
favored version of historians to explain the ultimate roots of the Rockefeller name. 
The name may also come from the "Roquefeuil", a Catholic family from the region of Languedoc (France).  

The earliest known ancestor is Goddart Rockenfeller (1590, Fahr). 
The Rockefeller family is descended from Johann Peter Rockenfeller (1682–1763), grandson of Goddart, 
and Johann Thiel Rockenfeller (1695–1796), great-grandson of Goddart. Johann Peter immigrated to 
New Jersey from the German Palatinate in 1723 and acquired large landholdings.

--Dagox (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Nicholas Rockefeller

Any reason Nicholas Rockefeller is not on this list? (As if we didn't know) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.124.38 (talk) 11:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw Aaron Russo talk about him in an interview and came here to see who the guy was, why isn't he here? I mean, he does exist, doesn't he? --Piotr Mitas (talk) 21:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Founded?

What exactly does this first sentence mean? "The Rockefeller family, founded by John D. Rockefeller (1839-1937)..."

He was not the first Rockefeller, and how exactly do you "found" a family? This seems to be a nonsensical sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.151.209 (talk) 03:05, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the sentence give the impression of a company foundation.(cantikadam (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)).

Typical Wikipedia propaganda

No mention of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=2ZO&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=robber+baron+rockefellers&spell=1

Another hit on Wikipedias credibility. Sounds like the Rockefellers are donating to Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ergn (talk • contribs) 22:25, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to rectify this bias by adding a Criticism section User:Aequitas12345 —Preceding comment was added at 17:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

John D. Rockefeller V

There is no real assertion of WP:N on this page outside of being a member of the family. Ought to be redirected here instead of deleted, but I wanted to let it be discussed before I WP:Be Bold. -Jcbarr 22:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

• I would have to disagree. Because John D. Rockefeller V is the direct descendant and namesake of John D. Rockefeller, people will want to know who the descending John D. Rockefellers are. If John D. Rockefeller V has a son John D. Rockefeller VI, he too would receive an article because of his name. --Caponer 20:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The family page does not currently contain any individual biographical information, but rather serves the purpose of directing people to individual pages they might want to look at. I would support deleting JDR5 before I'd support merging it, but I agree with Caponer that he's notable enough just because of his name (it's what brought me here). --BlueMoonlet 03:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

List

After consulting the other Wiki language versions of this page that, I felt the list of Rockefeller family members was best displayed in the order of each Rockefeller's birth, followed by their children in birth order as well. I felt an alphabetical list of Rockerfellers was not very family-oriented and that the purpose of this page was to highlight how each Rockerfeller was related to one another. --Caponer 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• Agreed. Nicely done. --BlueMoonlet 03:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

name

Rockenfeld was first mentioned in 1280 as Rukenvelt, meaning a field on the top of a ridge (between Rhine Valley and Westerwald). The settlement Rockenfeld was abandoned after the last inhabitant had died in 1995. The buildings were completely destroyed, only exception is a memorial for the dead of the second World War.

Goddard Rockenfeller (*1682 in Wied (now Altwied), †1763 in Rocktown, NJ) was the first Rockenfeller immigrating to America. He had six children with his first wife Anna Maria (*1684,†1719). In 1723 he, his second wife Elizabeth Christina (since 1720) and five of his children left their home and settled in Hunterdon County, NJ.

From my perspective this may be an information of interest. In the last version before I added this, there was a wrong explanation given for the ethymology of the family name. If there are no objections, I'd like to insert this again.--Dagox 11:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a general-interest encyclopedia; this is detail better suited for a genealogical site. It should be sufficient to note the name's connection to the German town and the person who brought the name to the US. Wikipedia is not a genealogical directory (official policy), and this is not the only page or article that goes into excessive detail. The important part of the article would be the history of how John D., William, and Frank established a business empire that made them notable and provided the opportunity for notability to their descendants. --Dhartung | Talk 22:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this detail is not of interest here.--Dagox 14:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, I'm questioning both origin stories -- obviously the Rockenfeld locals would like to promote their version, but there are numerous claims for the Roggenfelder origin and a particular descent from one Johann Roggenfelder. A better citation will be necessary, and perhaps an NPOV treatment of the competing claims. --Dhartung | Talk 22:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't see a debate about this question: The variant Roggenfelder is mainly promoted in mirror pages of wiki's old version. It may be a false reconstruction of the original german name or an unusual variant of Rockenfeller, since no standart orthography for names was introduced in 1723.

The facts: Rockenfeller is a name frequently used in Germany, well localized in the district where Rockenfeld lies. In contrast, the name Roggenfelder is very rare in Germany - the 2003 telephone book shows 9 entries all over Germany - but the name is only found close to Rockenfeld [1]. In the Rockefeller Family Genealogy Forum [2], there are members that can reconstruct thier pedigree to Johann Peter Rockenfeller, e. g. [3]. In the whole forum no entry can be found relating to the name Roggenfelder. There's no hint that any of the american Rockefellers has an ancestor with the name Roggenfelder or to put it in another way: Johann Roggenfelder is the same person as Johann (Peter?) Rockenfeller in an unusual or wrong spelling.

Sources: The web page I linked claim to rely on The Transactions of the Rockefeller Family Association. The Rockefeller Archive [4] recommends among others Henry Rockefeller's Rockefeller Genealogy (available at [5]). Unfortunately I have no access to the books, so I couldn't check it. --Dagox 14:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at [6]. There you can reconstruct the Rockefeller genealogy from John D. up to Goddard in 1590. A reliable source is Scheiffarth, Engelbert. "Der New Yorker Gouverneur Nelson A. Rockefeller und die Rockenfeller im Neuwieder Raum." Genealogisches Jahrbuch, vol. 9, 1969, pp. 16-41. --Dagox 18:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

These are good points. An A9 search indicates that the Roggenfelder claim dates at least back to an H. L. Mencken book in 1936, attributed to Stephen Kekulé von Stradonitz (presumably a relative of the chemist), and it is widely propagated on Rockefeller-conspiracy web pages, so we should address it somehow. --Dhartung | Talk 19:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

According to Scheiffarth, Engelbert. "Der New Yorker Gouverneur Nelson A. Rockefeller und die Rockenfeller im Neuwieder Raum." Genealogisches Jahrbuch, vol. 9, 1969, pp. 16-41, the oldest known documents about the Rockefeller family are the parish registers of the Neuwied region. They were documented by Philipp Rockenfeller (†1916 in WW I). Scheiffarth gave copies of the documents in 1963 to the Gouvernor Nelson A. Rockefeller. The spelling in the registers is most often Rockenfeller, sometimes Rockefeller or Rockenfelder.

The documents reach back to the Thirty Years' War, since older registers were destroyed during this period. Two of the genealogic tables are related to the american Rockefellers. I give a summary with the important persons:--Dagox 15:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I. Johannes (*ca. 1634, †2.8.1684 in Niederbieber). Second marriage 
   with Elisabeth Margaretha Remagen from Segendorf in 1678
   9. Johann Peter I. (*1682 in Rengsdorf). Married 
      Anna Maria Remagen from Segendorf (*1684, †1720) in 1717 in Niederbieber. 
      Second marriage in 1720 with Elisabeth Christine Runkel from Bonefeld. 
      They move in 1723 to Ringoes, NJ.
      2. Johann Peter II. (*22.3.1711 in Niederbieber), son of Anna Maria Remagen.
         (*) William (*1750). Married in 1772 at Germantown Christina Rockefeller (=II.2.4.4.(*), see below).
             (*) Godfrey (*24.9.1783). Married to Lucy Avery (family of english origin).
                 1. William Avery (*1810, †1906). Married to Eliza Davison (*1813, †1889). 
                    He was looking for noble descent and a servile genealogist "found" his pedigree back 
                    to the french family de Roquefeullie, who had had to flee France since they were 
                    huguenots. The legend says they had changed the french name to Rockenfeller when 
                    they had moved to Neuwied, altough the name of Rockenfeld is well documented long before.
                    2. John Davison.
II. Johann Wilhelm (*ca. 1628 in Ehlscheid, †24.7.1702 in Rengsdorf).
    2. Anton (or Tönges) (*ca. 1658, †18.7.1707 in Rengsdorf), married in 1685 in Rengsdorf Gertrud Pauli.
       4. Johann Thiel (Theil) (*1695 in Ehlscheid). Married to Anna Gertrud Alsdorf from Bonefeld.
          4. Johann Simon (15.1.1730 in Ehlscheid, †1795). Married to Anna Bähr. Moved in 1735 to Germantown, NY.
             (*) Christina.

philanthropy "undoubtedly the greatest"?

"The six-generation dynasty of John D. Rockefeller is undoubtedly the greatest philanthropic family in the United States, after Andrew Carnegie initiated the concept of major philanthropy in the 1880s. Its historical underpinnings are credited to John D.'s devout Christian mother Eliza Davison (1813-1889), who instilled in him the regular practice of tithing, which he began in 1855 when he started his first job as an assistant bookkeeper.[2]"

Not exactly neutral there, "undoubtedly the greatest", most money given to the best causes? Way off topic towards the end.
So I've changed it to "The Rockefeller family are noted for their philanthropy". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.4.223.79 (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

CARNIGIE IS THE GREATEST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.144.201 (talk) 00:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Genealogical fraud

There is a very unusual form of genealogical fraud that appears to be in action here. I have removed a group of children from the list of descendents of William Rockefeller, to wit a purported descendent "Sarah Elizabeth Rose b 1958" and her three children. It appears that no such connection exists. Go here to see the list of the real descendents that James Stillman Rockefeller had. Wjhonson 02:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

origin of money

moc.eivomtsiegtiez.www There is no mentioning in this article how they kept there money tree growing. For example we now this from I.G Farben company but not from the 'o so rich' Rockefeller family. Kind a strange isnt it?. Some history insights about this might be wise to make public. As it has a lot todo with some people's freedom.

Expand Criticism section ASAP

Much is lacking in criticism of this dominant capitalist family

As of Thurs, Dec 6th 4am, this article has two lines...two lines of critcism!!! Ludlow massacre etc...I shan't go on. Please add to this, as criticism sections are always very much important in adding other standpoints to any article. Let's get more than just "great philanthropy" up here please...possible whitewashing?

A proper Criticism section would be very welcome; delphic references to other Wikipedia articles (all that we had) are embarrassingly bad substitutes. Henry^Flower 16:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Is that better? Aequitas12345 12:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Howard Zinn anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.127.25 (talk) 14:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Dynasty?

As far as I know in U.S.A. there is no dynasty exists or am I wrong? I would ttry to be sarcastic but it is painfully explicit anyhow.(cantikadam (talk) 11:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)).

Remove This Line?

"The family was also the fourth richest family in history.[citation needed]"

I fail to understand how it is possible to measure a family's wealth, since a family is not a discrete entity. While Rockafeller's status as the wealthiest (inflation adjusted) man in history is arguable, I don't even believe this measure to be possible...and if it is, it certainly needs a citation. CelestialRender (talk) 15:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Christian Gerhartsreiter

Isn't it worth mention about the con artist from West Germany who claimed to be a descendant of Rockefeller? JustN5:12 (talk) 21:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticism?

i have added to the criticism section. Alas, over half of the content was deleted. will others please add to the section? its the smallest out of all of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.245.99 (talk) 21:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

"Jewish" canard

I removed the phrase "with jewish roots" (sic) from the first sentence. In addition to being unsubstantiated (no citation), it is a well-known Anti-semitic falsehood--not that were the Rockefellers Jewish it would impugn the Jews, but that supposedly the Rockefellers' "secret Jewishness" explains their business success, on the premise of a cabal. The Rockefeller family is Protestant, and there is no evidence that their ancestors were Jewish, secretly or otherwise. I removed the sentence rather than discussed it because (a) it is inflammatory, and (b) it is not an element of serious discussion. [Not signed]

It is well known in all the World that they are JEWS, just go in Rockefeller center in NYC and you can find out by the way how those who maintain the center dress, 90 % of them are Jews with Jewish hats. And there should be no reason why Jews hide their identity. Their time is coming anyway... —unsigned comment added by 89.248.194.212 (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

and your point is? 78.49.118.251 (talk) 15:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

This is silly. Everybody knows that Rockefeller are Jews. Just like David Letterman is. As a coincidence, have you every thought of why many successful persons in finance or media has german names? Explanation: Lots of Jews originate from Germany, just read about Ashkenazi Jews and Khazar Jews and you will see.

a. You removed the phrase... but in the article "Ethnicity" still says Jewish.

b. So it is unsubstantiated? Besides the "Jewish hats" are there any serious quotes of Jewish ties?

c. Could you please identify yourself? The antisemitic responder although calling to kill me (your time is coming anyway) is correct that you should sign your name.

d. Just a short response to 89.248.194.212's remark: Streptomicyn, rubber, Insulin, zip files, atomic power (civil use), list goes on a few pages. The Talmud says at the end of days all hatred will evaporate. Until then, many Jews - of all beliefs but probably with roots to their ancient extra-biblical religion, do a lot to make the world a better place for everyone. And a few, just like all other nations, do a lot to make it worse. BTW Autosigned, why are YOU hiding? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 13:42, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, see this to sum it up: A Genealogy book by Stern compiling famous Jewish people and families in America, listed the WIFE (Helen Gratz) of a COUSIN (Godfrey) to the Rockefeller brothers. Their children were raised in the Episcopalian church. Samuel Andrews may have been the descendant of an assimilated Mordecai Andrews 6 generations previously, whose daughter Ann (Hanna) converted and married the son of a Christian priest). פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 14:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah it's all pretty weird. The Rockefellers and others get blamed for a lot of nonsense just like the Jews do and so some people will think they're all one and the same. It's so silly. They're fine and mostly harmless people whom many Americans more or less worship because they're so wealthy and "secretive" and... well that's just so mystical! So there's this deep impression of a mystique and conviction they must be "hiding something" just like the Jews are always "doing hidden things". I don't know if I'm putting it quite right but that's close enough. DinDraithou (talk) 02:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Tree

The big list of family members might benefit from the use of Template:familytree, and being trimmed down to notable members. -- Earle [^t/_c] 03:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Improper to express critical comment on Rockefeller family from Public figure?

This had been deleted, but I don't see that it is out of place. What do others think?

Rockerfeller Influence and the "New World Order"

Some opponents of the the New World Order have seen the Rockerfeller wealth and influence as key components of a conspiracy to bring about One world government. One of these was Cong. Larry McDonald, conservative Democratic Representative to Congress from the 7th District of Georgia. Along with 268 other passengers, McDonald was aboard Korean Air Lines Flight 007 when it was shot down by the Soviets off of Sakhalin Island on Sept. 1, 1983. He was the only sitting congressman reportedly killed by the Soviets during the Cold War and his death further fueled opposition to New World Order.

"The drive of the Rockefeller family and their allies is to create a one-world government, combining super-capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control ... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."[18][19]

Here are my problems. One, you tried to add the exact same information to New World Order Conspiracy Theory article. (Which was also promptly reverted by a different editor) Two, you have COI issues since you are related to the congressman someone that died in the plane crash. Three, you show absolutely no connection between the Rockefeller family and that plane crash. Your only tenuous connection is McDonald mentioning the Rockefellers and the new world order. Four, it is UNDUE weight to mention one congressman's opinion of the Rockefellers in relation to the New World Order. If you can find other reliable sources, then maybe it can be added as a section. But campaigning to include that plane crash and Congressman McDonald in as many articles as possible is not good editing. Angryapathy (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with User:Angryapathy. --Loremaster (talk) 00:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Conservation

"Beginning with Rockefeller Senior, the family has been a major force in land conservation"

This has to be highly debatable. And where's the evidence? --Ceiteag Bheag (talk) 00:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Spouses

The way the spouses are currently shown makes no sense at all. Many of them are disconnected from who they are supposed to have married, so we can't even figure it out. The spouses should be merged into the main descent trail to make it clear who each person married.Wjhonson (talk) 14:39, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't make sense of this

"...The family, with its far reaching philanthropy, as well as its oil, real estate, banking, and international institutions, remains a benchmark for extreme wealth ("as rich as Rockefeller"), as "Senior" is still regarded as the wealthiest man who has ever lived, worth over $300 billion in today's figures, easily surpassing Bill Gates, in terms adjusted by inflation indexing.[25]..."

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)