Talk:Polish people

Polish People in Greece

According to this article published in Warsaw, there are over 50,000 Poles living in Greece. Please recognize that! http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/1716 —Preceding unsigned comment added by SirGeorge8600 (talk • contribs) 23:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Kościuszko should be removed from the image

Kościuszko is an important Poland's national hero. Nevertheless, the article is about those who are ethnically Polish. Kościuszko was born on a territory which most of its residents where Ruthenians (today it's Belarus), so most of the chances his ethnicity wasn't Polish, while this article talks about the Polish ethnicity. 132.66.161.42 (talk) 07:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Most of the chances are" - this is a good explanation of the point you are trying to achieve. Perhaps you do not know that many Poles used to live and still live in those territories. And let's not talk about chances Tymek (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Polish People in Italy

according with this source the Polish immigrants in Italy are more than 100,000 many of them live in Rome . http://www.aduc.it/dyn/immigrazione/noti.php?id=148797

European Union section

Just a thought but the entire section on the EU seems really out of place in this article. None of the other articles on European ethnic groups have this and it seems really trivial in the scope of the entire history of the group. It's as if the only defining characteristic of Poles is their place in the EU. I suggest a removal of this section. A brief overview of language, religion, culture would probably me more informative here. JRWalko (talk) 03:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

poels

we would like to say that ....... we think that pole people are very interesting to learn about... lets just say we think you are very cool people Guess what my best friend is a pole just like you(maybe you no HER) LOVE CAILY —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.202.96 (talk) 23:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

"European Union" section

(for ethnic Poles living abroad see Polonia, for those living and working in the United Kingdom see Polish British)

A survey carried out by the CBOS public opinion institute, between March 30 and April 2, 2007, found that 86% of Poles felt that EU membership had had a positive effect, with only 5% of the respondents speaking against it, down from 22 percent in 2004. The institute also found that 55% of those surveyed prefer the EU to remain a union of sovereign states, while 22% supported the idea of a "United States of Europe". Principal areas of Polish life that have been improved by EU membership, are agriculture (according to 75% of those surveyed), the environment (61%), productivity (57%) and unemployment (56%). Among the ten new EU members, of which eight are Central or Eastern European, Poles are the most mobile, with considerable numbers of Polish migrants found in almost all ‘old’ EU countries, filling numerous vacancies on the European labour market, especially in areas where indigenous workforce is insufficient. According to Franck Duvell of Oxford, some countries, like Germany and Austria, missed on that opportunity by discriminating against mobile Europeans, granting them freedom of movement without freedom of employment, which resulted in the increase of numbers of illegal migrant workers there. “In fact, the EU accession process, and namely the Polish experience could possibly serve as a paradigm for easing some of Europe’s migration dilemma,” Duvell suggested. Take this elsewhere. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Religion

I changed the infobox section on religion to simply Christianity (Predominantly Roman Catholic) because the percentage of other religious groups is about the same or less as Spaniards and Italians and since those and other ethnicities' infoboxes generally don't include tiny religions I don't see why they should be here. Kasnie (talk) 03:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I make any mistake here - I'm not used to editing on Wiki.. I would like to emphasize that most of the Poles do not feel that they belong to any church at all. The information that it's above 90% is surely wrong - maybe it's due to the fact, that there's no mean of measuring that. Up to recent years the baptizing of the children was seen as "something traditional", people were doing that thinking "it's no big deal, I can do this if my mom/dad/grandma wants it". So you see, usually ('cause, surely, there is some amount of people who really believe) there are no religious thoughts behind that. And once you're baptized, you remain in the Church' documents forever unless you perform the apostasy, which obviously no-one who decides not to go to church cares about. So, in the end, in the documents owned by Church are people who, f.e., haven't been in church or haven't done anything "religious" for YEARS (this includes all of my family, which is really a bunch of people - we all have been baptized, some of us may believe IN SOME SORT OF SENSE, but none of us identifies with the Catholic Church, or any christian one at all). That's a different situation form the one you can see for example in Germany, where there is a tax connected to the Church and if you're paying, you're in - that gives you the exact measure. So I think you should maybe find some information about that and change this description a little. Especially young Poles, and that includes me, are tired of being called "religious", of hearing that we listen to the Pope and consider what Church says about the law, politics etc. We do not. Otherwise - that's a great article ;).

90.156.33.231 (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

"Great Poles"

I think that we should change that: First row: Skłodowska–Curie • Pope John Paul II • Copernicus • Wałęsa • Conrad. Second row: Gretzky • Jan III Sobieski • Kościuszko • Rejewski • Wajda • Kolbe. Third row: Piłsudski • Lem • Brzeziński • Warner • Wielicki • Wolszczan. We have bigger "heroes" than these bolded by me. For example, Ignacy Łukasiewicz, Adam Mickiewicz, Roman Dmowski and much more. I think that it is no need for placing former Soviet agents, Canadian sport heroes or other next to Piłsudski, Jan III Sobieski, Kościuszko or Pope John Paul II. --Krzyzowiec (talk) 18:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

While I understand your concern, the people selected for this image were specifically meant to come from all walks of life and all incarnations of the meaning of "Poles". The definition is very broad and so is this selection. See the other articles on ethnic groups and how they tackled the issue. JRWalko (talk) 21:12, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

--142.214.108.101 (talk) 17:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)--142.214.108.101 (talk) 17:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)--~~~~Hi, I was reading that article about fameous Poles and... Don't know how to say that. Well. I woul'd like to ask, why that set of pictures lacks one particular piano-guy? One Chopin guy? Is it becouse by many he is considered to be french pianist? I can live without Chopin's photo in that set, but why Delacroix? I'm almost certain that Delacroix wasn't Pole. Did french people give Delacroix to polish people in exchange for Chopin? We don't need Delacroix, we've got lots of poets. We'll take Zidane for Chopin.

Infobox image

There are couple issues with this picture that need to be resolved. Warner should not be included, because this article is about ethnic Poles. Harry Warner's ethnicity was not Polish, he was Jewish. So was Stanisław Lem. Also exceptional notability of Wielicki and Wolszczan is questionable. M0RD00R (talk) 16:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Lem was a Pole or Jew? Really his origins are jewish, but what decides of his ethnicity? His family was catholic, St.Lem was atheist, their nationality was Polish. Lem repatriated to Poland (not Izrael). Yes, from racist POV he was Jew, but from any other POV - Polish writer and philosopher.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I definitely can understand how Lem can be considered Polish. But still I fail to see what Harry Warner is doing here. Wayne Gretzky Polishness is also debatable, wiki article is inconsistent on this question (Belarusian heritage is also mentioned). Disputable entries should be left out of infobox in my opinion. M0RD00R (talk) 19:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Poles and non-Poles with Polish origins - two different topics.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I find these sort of feuds tiring. We're only one click away from the article Krasnosielc in the heart of Poland where Harry Warner born as Hirsch Wonsal (Wąsal perhaps?) came from. Yes, he was Jewish, we know that, but please read the introduction to this article. --Poeticbent talk 21:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Exists Poles sensu lato definition (so 250,000 Jews in Israel are from Poland and so Poles), and Poles sensu stricto (Lithuanians, Roma, Ukrainians with Polish nationality are not Poles). So all over the world is possible to find Pole who even does not know he is Pole. Civilized society recognizes ethnic (or ethnic descent) selfdefinition only, so blackskin Pole is possible and Jan Kowalski non-Pole is possible also. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 22:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed self definition is the key question here. So the question is - did Harry Warner ever referred to himself as a Pole, and how many of 250,000 Israelis listed here refer to themselves as Poles. M0RD00R (talk) 22:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't provide you with any surveys relating to the topic, but Being an Israeli of Polish background myself, I can assure you many of us do consider ourselves to be Polish(not to mention we still carry our Polish last names), despite the efforts of some nationalists to take away our Polish identity. BTW, 250,000 is an oddly low number. My guess is it's only counting Polish-born Israelis. The actual numbers of Israelis of Polish origin are much higher, est. to be around 500,000, if not higher.79.179.239.75 (talk) 01:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I have read the introduction, namely "Poles are a Western Slavic ethnic group of Central Europe" , I don't believe Harry Warner did belong to that ethnic group. The Poles can also be referred to ... Polish emigrants irrespective of their ethnicity. True as well, but this does not change the fact the scope of this article is Poles (ethnic group). Beeing born Krasnosielc (in Russian Empire then) does not make him ethnic Russian as well. If I'm wrong about the scope of this article - we'll need to work on the Polish Jews section. It looks strange when the Polish Jews are only present in the infobox image, without single word about them in the article space. Another point is that even if indeed sometimes "Polish emigrants irrespective of their ethnicity" are referred to as Poles, it does not mean that Harry Warner is referred to that way. So far I'm not familiar with any WP:RS referring to him as Pole. And if there are no WP:RS, it is WP:OR. M0RD00R (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• Krasnosielc (a short distance away from Warsaw), was once a town in Congress Poland (not in the Russian Empire in the usual sense). No foreign invader can change the ethnic make up of a nation with its prominent minorities, subjugated even for a century or more. But, perhaps the time has come to expand on the Jewish Poles in this article as per your suggestion from above. There's space for that. --Poeticbent talk 23:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Strictly speaking by 1881 when Harry Warner was born it was Russian Empire in usual sense, autonomy of Congress Poland was abolished long time ago. But let's not distract ourselves from the really important question of self identification, namely did Harry Warner ever referred to himself as a Pole, or is he referred that way by multiple WP:RS, or maybe we have a case of WP:OR here. M0RD00R (talk) 23:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

In 1881 Poland existed in hearts ans mindes of Poles, but Wiki calls the Congress Poland a "puppet" with a fictional autonomy. But what does it changes? Who decides Warner ethnicity or his descent selfdefinition? It is an encyclopedic fact he was born at ethnic Polish land in a heart of the modern Poland territory. We can not decide of his selfdefinition. There are unquestionable Poles to choose. The chapter with a Polish place of birth or Polish roots personalities list can be useful, I guess, as it is made in a lot of articles in Wiki.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 00:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• Warner's family is being referred to as Polish Jews by Walter L. Hixson in his book The American Experience in World War II. Quote: "Harry and Jack Warner were the sons of Polish Jews who had earlier fled their homeland to escape persecution" Also, in a book called Celluloid Soldiers, Michael E. Birdwell speaks of his background directly: "Harry was a Polish-Jewish immigrant" in America (page 59, last paragraph). I think this well sourced information ought to be included in Harry Warner article. --Poeticbent talk 01:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• And that is not what I asked. This article is not titled Polish Jews. It is titled Poles. So I ask did Warner was ever referred to as Pole. It is quite simple question I guess. Answer is simple as well, and we all know what it is. M0RD00R (talk) 08:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• M0RD00R, you're being fixated on the racial divide. You know more than well about how many minorities live in France, Germany, England and in other European countries. And yet the Wikipedia articles on French, German, British, and other European people defined by their nationalities, backgrounds and language, speak of them in a unified manner. Harry Warner was Jewish, Polish and American, just like Einstein was Jewish, German and American. So please don't waste our time trying so hard to undermine this connection? --Poeticbent talk 17:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

And that's where the problem is. British people, French people articles speak about minorities, this article does not. So there are two options now - community consensus should decide what is the scope of this article. If it should stay the way it is written now, it means focused just on Poles (the ethnic group), or if its subject is the Polish nation in a broader sense. There is nothing wrong with either option. Either way this article can be written in an encyclopedic and consistent way. But if community goes with the broader scope, then this article should be substantially rewritten and expanded, and as you have mentioned examples of the French and the British people articles, minorities should be given proper article space (not just in the infobox). If community will go with latter option, British people article has some positive examples to follow e.g. attempts to present an Irish point of view on the British identity etc. So if we decide that the scope of this article is not the Polish ethnic group, but the Nation of Poland, then the history of the Jewish, German, Ukrainian, etc minorities in Poland, and their attitude towards Polish identity should be fully reflected.M0RD00R (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• The article on French people is 70 kilobytes long with a corresponding, long Table of Contents. The article on Poles, on the other hand, is only 17 kilobytes long, certainly, with a lot to be desired, but we had to start somewhere. --Poeticbent talk 22:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Either remove Lem and Werner from the infobox, or bring back the population figures for Israel. It's confusing. Lem and Werner are included, yet you don't consider Jews to be Poles!
I think it should include the Israeli Polish-Jewish population. Take the US for example - Many of those 10,024,711 Polish-Americans are infact Polish Jews; Most American Jews (~7,000,000) are the descendants of immigrants from either Russia or Poland. The same can be said for the Polish communities of Brazil, Canada France and Argentina. So even when excluding Israel, a large percentage of Poles in other countries are actually Polish Jews.79.179.239.75 (talk) 01:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes it is confusing. But as I said I'm not sure now what is the scope of this article. Categories that are applied to this article Category:Ethnic groups in Poland, Category:Ethnic groups in Europe, Category:Ethnic groups in Russia, Category:Slavic nations, would imply that it should be about Poles (ethnic group). But I guess it is obvious that Warner was not an ethnic Pole, nor was he a Slav. However if community consensus will decide that the scope of this article is much broader, when we'll have to expand this article by adding new sections about Polish Jews, Polish Germans, Polish Ukrainians etc. This would bring more consistency, because nothing is confusing as the fact that so far we had Polish Jews only pictured in the infobox, and they were totally ignored in the main article.M0RD00R (talk) 08:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity is a very fuzzy concept, as we can see. If quoting numbers, it would be good if we could determine on what basis they were counted, and mention that in the article. But as to the infobox image (which we can't edit, so it's all or nothing until someone produces a better one), I think it represents the set of "Poles" quite well, in all its fuzziness - provided the caption makes clear (as it now does) that not all those depicted are 100% Pole.--Kotniski (talk) 08:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• I can edit the infobox image any way we choose, because I uploaded one of its versions into Commons. I didn’t create the file, but I exchanged individual portraits already before. It is a lot of time consuming effort, so consensus has to be formed well beforehand. --Poeticbent talk 17:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Obviously there are two major issues, that need to be discussed separately, so I will split this discussion into two threads below. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Image

There are couple issue with this picture that still need to be resolved: 1. Current selection of individuals pictures is far from perfect - Wielicki and Wolszczan, clearly should not be here. Their notability clearly is not exceptional. What comes in mind first when Poland is mentioned - Mickiewicz and Chopin, or Wielicki and Wolszczan? Answer to this is an obvious one I would guess.

But the image isn't there simply to tell people what they already know. (Chopin's absence does seem strange though.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

2. Harry Warner picture. Leaving aside the question of the scope of this article, and even WP:Due weight - Warner is not quintessentially associated with the Polish nation. There is simple technical issue. Licence of this image is obviously questionable, there is no proof presented that it was published prior to year 1923, and there is no source of this image. It is an obvious speedy candidate. And if (when) this image will be csd nominated, this compilation will be deleted next.M0RD00R (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Scope of this article

So can we please make at least an attempt of decision what is the scope of this article - Poles (ethnic group) or Nation of Poland in broader sense?M0RD00R (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideally, it should cover all the different interpretations of the term "Poles" that can be found in reliable sources. Since there is probably no clear divide between sets of such interpretations, it seems unhelpful and pointless to try to break them into separate articles.--Kotniski (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, we have Germans and Ethnic Germans articles. So I guess it is possible to distinguish between those two topics. M0RD00R (talk) 22:27, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I guess such a split would be possible. But I don't see the point unless/until the article becomes too large.--Kotniski (talk) 07:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Going by the Germans and Ethnic Germans articles, this one, Poles, would be the one for the broad, inclusive definition of the term. So Lem and Warner should stay here. Note that Germans does list Germans in Israel, a good portion of whom, presumably are Jewish. Likewise the number for Poles in Israel, many of whom do identify as Polish in some sense, or as having Polish roots, belongs here. The lead and corresponding portions of the article may perhaps be need to rewritten to emphasize the more inclusive usage of "Poles" in this article.radek (talk) 07:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Article Ethnic Germans, quote: "German: Deutschstämmige, historically also Volksdeutsche, collectively referred to as the German diaspora" has its Polish counterpart in the article Polonia which is 26,745 bytes long. There's no need for any new articles accenting Polish minorities, because both existing articles are a good enough base for further expansion. --Poeticbent talk 22:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly. Polonia is not synonymous with ethnic Poles. Currently Polonia article defines its subject as "people of Polish origin who live outside Polish borders", when Poles article is concerned with "Western Slavic ethnic group of Central Europe, living predominantly in Poland". So Poles article is much closer to Poles (ethnic group), and Polonia to Polish Nation if we take in account the just the scope of inclusion, but since the most important aspect of the definion of the term Polonia "people of Polish origin who live outside Polish borders",it can not be synonymous with the term Ethnic Poles by default. M0RD00R (talk) 23:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Polack

The article says: "The Polish word for a Polish person is Polak (male) and Polka (female), however, when this common noun is used verbatim in the English language (usually spelled as Polack) it is a polite way to greet a polish person [28]"

As far as I know, "Polack" is an offensive word for a Pole. It looks to me that someone has written the above on purpose. Or did I miss something?

Pawelkw (talk) 22:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for noticing the above vandalism. The anonymous vandal has already been warned. --Poeticbent talk 00:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• Hello, I'm polish. There's nothing wrong about calling us "polack". It's just how we say a Pole (male) in polish. And it's written without "c". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.210.63.235 (talk) 21:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Origin of stereotype jokes

I remember "Polish jokes" when I was young seemed very popular. In fact some of the earliest jokes I can remember portrayed Poles basically as idiots. Does anyone know the origin of this stereotype and is this something that could (or should) be explored in this article? --Brendanmccabe (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Poles are an Ethnic group in Russia?????

Excuse me but i just dont get it. Why did someone put Poles into "the ethnic groups in Russia" category? Poles are not some ethnic group in Russia. Russians and Poles are part of Slavs group but Poles are not part of Russians.

Adam81w —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.153.119.36 (talk) 13:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC) '

No, but Poles have frequently been deported there by Tsarist authorities. Polish minority in Russia is the article you're looking for. 80.167.179.233 (talk) 11:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Poles in Israel

Hello! The tens of thousands of Polish Jews immigrated to Israel, before and after the holocaust, are not mentioned anywhere in this article, nor in the table on the right. Today, there probably should be a few hundreds of thousands of people of polish descent in Israel. --93.173.7.99 (talk) 12:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

• That is a clear oversight. The Polish Jews in Israel must be added to the template, so please look for references featuring statistical data (in English, Hebrew or in Polish, doesn't matter). I can help out with formatting if necessary. --Poeticbent talk 17:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe there is any official statistical data relating to ethnic-origin matters of the jewish population here in Israel. I also couldn't find any other estimation of the number of people of polish descent here in Israel. The only thing I found is an article on Ynet (news site, in Hebrew) about polish citizenship, estimate that there are 1,250,000 israelis eligible of polish citizenship in Israel. If that is correct, I guess the total number of poles in Israel might be higher. --93.173.7.99 (talk) 20:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• I went to Google translator and translated the page you mentioned, please take a look. Wikipedia respects foreign sources on good faith. The rough translation clearly indicates that at least 1,250,000 Israelis are entitled to Polish citizenship, which means, they have either been born in Poland or have strong Polish roots. – I included the above number in our article's template, tentatively of course. Thanks for letting us know about this. --Poeticbent talk 22:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Poles in Sweden

According to Polish Wiki there are 100,000 Poles in Sweden. But they are not included in the infobox.Mycomp (talk) 14:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Use of the term "Autochthonous"

The article uses the word "autochthonous," a synonym of indigenous, excessively. It is my opinion, which I think most would find agreeable, that it is awkward style to have this ungainly word used with such repetition. Even the built in spellchecker doesn't recognize it. People should not have to use a dictionary to find the meanings of words that should be clear when they are reading an encyclopedia, unless the subject matter cannot avoid the use of complicated jargon. I am replacing it, but I open the floor for dialogue, and please, if you rv, join me here with your reasoning. John Mytton (talk) 03:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Regions with significant populations

Can I just ask why Poland isn't in this list? As with other people articles, e.g. English People, German People and Han Chinese? I'm a bit unfamiliar with the guidelines and therefore why Poland isn't included. Jack?! 15:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

And, unless I'm missing something, this makes the whole regions with significant populations section wrong, as it says 'rest of world 1,145,000'. Without a mention of Poland, this means there are around 35 million poles not mentioned in the list? Jack?! 15:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Noticed an error in the section, USA and Poland were both listed as region one, meaning Poland's Polish population was not visible in the list; fixed it. Also changed UK population. Jack?! 16:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem still hasn't been fixed, the USA is not currently listed in the "regions with significant populations." Is the USA not supposed to be included for some reason? (Please forgive my ignorance if this has already been decided.) Lelapindore (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

See below. There are no reliable statistics as to how many Poles live in the US. The census bureau asks for ancestry, which, to a lot of Americans, is simply a box to tick and doesn't indicate self-identification. What could be useful would be numbers from the Polish embassy as to how many Polish citizens are currently living in the US. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Poles in the US

The article states there are 10 millions poles in the U.S. which seems to be wrong since the reference document (US Census Bureau) is about ancestry and not nationality. --Syrmonsieur (talk) 18:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Is Polish an ethnicity? If so then there are 10 million people who are ethnically Polish in the USA, their DNA Y chrmosome haplogroups match their Polish ancestors and by default modern Polish people (that is Polish people in Poland.) Zantorzi (talk) 00:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Being Polish is definitely not a ethnicity but a nationality, the same as for the rest of the people of Europe (unless you're reading 19th century books...). Polish borders and people from central Europe moved a lot during history. Makes no sense talking about DNA in such shorts periods. The "10 millions poles" in the U.S. has nothing to do with present day Polish people. It just denotes that 10 million people living in the US have Polish ancestry. => I remove this assertion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.78.142 (talk) 13:53, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The US census is merely about ancestry; few of those who check the box would call themselves "Poles". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Same problem for Israel (the figure indicates how many people are eligible for Polish nationality), Canada (same kind of statistics as for the US), and for Brasil. Figures indicating the number of Pole expat in those countries are welcome.--88.6.78.142 (talk) 08:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

curious that they are not a ethnic group but are genetically different than Germans with poles having a much much higher amount amount of y-haplogroup r1a1(a) compared to the Germans, of which their r1a is limited to east Germany, a remnant of the pre-10th century slavs that would later turn into poles and sorbians. you're quite wrong about "short periods" - perhaps you should read up more on genetic archeology, quite a fascinating science. population of "central" Europe have remained rather the same, exceptions being the post world war forced deportations of Germans to modern Germany, and eastern poles to the former homes of the Germans, regardless geneticists don't count such people in their research. Zantorzi (talk) 05:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not mean there are no genetic differences between the population of different states/areas, but those differences are not limited by an artificial limit, but rather shade softly from an area to another. State borders are the result of history, they are artifial and temporary lines (eg Poland moved west at the end of the War). Looking at the state to partition the genetic map is statistic error. If history had produced Bullshitland between germany and poland you would perhaps talk about a Bullshitian ethnicity...Same genetic repartition and different conclusion!

Finally, I agree it is appropriate to talk about genetic profile of the Polish population, but this is not a reason to say that Polish is a specific/peculiar genetic population.--88.6.78.142 (talk) 10:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Image of Copernicus in the infobox?

Nicolaus Copernicus, who apparently was added to the infobox in 2008, definitely has spoken and written German and Latin. Nothing is known about any knowledge of Polish language. He does not belong on this page, no matter how successful Polish claims have been since the 19th century. I'm replacing him with Henryk Sienkiewicz-- Matthead  Discuß   04:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Professor Stefan Melkowski of Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń writes that Copernicus spoke both Polish and German, see: "O historii i o współczesności" ("About History and Contemporaneity"), May 2003. He used Latin, knew enough Greek to translate the 7th-century Byzantine poet Theophylact Simocatta's verses into Latin prose (Armitage, The World of Copernicus, pp. 75–77), and there is ample evidence he spoke Polish while living and studying in Krakow (Norman Davies, God's Playground, vol. II, p. 26). During his several years' studies in Italy, Copernicus also learned some Italian. -- Poeticbent talk 05:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

pl:Stefan Melkowski, a literary historian but no proper historian, has compiled an abstract of events at the 2005 Festival of Science and Art at Thorn. One of them was a "discussion", moderated by pl:Sławomir Kalembka, between pl:Janusz Małłek and pl:Krzysztof Mikulski, whether Copernicus was Polish or German. So Melkowski writes that he recalls from said "exhibition match" - hardly a reliable source. Point me to a scientific work by Małłek or Mikulski covering Copernicus alleged Polish skills in detail, rather than en passant. And the proper quote from Davies 2005 edition at GBS is "From the cultural point of view, he came from a family whose connections in Silesia, and in the bourgeoisie of fifteenth-century Cracow, in Thorn, and in Frauenberg, were with the German-speaking rather than with the Polish-speaking element; but there is ample evidence that he knew the Polish language." Where is any evidence? Davies also wrote "Polish scholars have felt obliged to follow the German example and to mount exclusive claims over a generous man who would turn in his grave to hear their bickerings". Besides Coperncius being unable to rotate or rest in his grave as he was exhumed by Poles, there was hardly any German example, safe for a few non-scientific ones in the time of the World Wars, countering Polish propaganda. In fact, German scholars who had studied Copernicus biography in the mid-19th century had come to a balanced conclusions, for example the one in the 1875 Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie quote at Wikisource which is rather friendly to Polish POV. That was 135 years ago. Since starting to publish bold claims in the early 19th century, Poles ignore or belittle most biographical evidence unearthed since. Today, Poland is in the EU for 5 years or so, yet many Poles, from the government to Wikipedians, still disgrace their nation and themselves by making exclusive claims about many persons who clearly have a strong non-Polish aspect in their biographies. Are there not enough non-controversial famous Poles to fill eight spots in the infobox? Is there a need to fill gaps with Germans, Lithuanians, half-French persons, etc.? Whats wrong with Sienkiewicz? After all, he wrote the The Knights of the Cross. Polish patriots should be more satisfied with Sienkiewicz than with the inclusion of astronomer who was writing in German and Latin, and who in his book stated he made observations "in Frueburgo Prussiae", in Prussia's Frauenburg, rather than in Poland's Frombork. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There is a wrong image of Copernicus up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.27.169 (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Copernicus was at least half-German, and his family were native German-speakers. The fact that he's vehemently claimed as a great Pole is embarassing. Copernicus was an intellectual of the Middle Ages with German/Polish origins, who did most of his work in Latin. The bottom line is Copernicus can't be claimed solely by anyone. Vdjj1960 (talk) 1:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Kościuszko doesn't belong to the page image

Ethnicaly, he was not Polish, but of mixed Ruthenian and Lithuenian origin, and this article talks about ethnic Poles. Free Belarus (talk) 16:07, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This article is about Poles, ethnic or otherwise. He is a Polish national hero. Busy yourself with Belarusian pages and leave Polish subjects to the Polish. —Stephen (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicaly he was not Polish, and this article is about ethnic Poles. Free Belarus (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The opening of the article: "The Polish people, or Poles (Polish: Polacy [pɔˈlat​͡sɨ], singular Polak), are a Western Slavic ethnic group of Central Europe, living predominantly in Poland." So this article is about the ethnicity. Free Belarus (talk) 17:08, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

You are rationalizing. This article is about Poles, ethnic or otherwise. He is a Polish national hero. Leave the Polish to the Polish. —Stephen (talk) 17:10, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

It just jit me you don't understand the difference beetwen nationality and ethnicity. He was of Polish nationality, yes, and he was a national hero of Poland, but he wasn't Polish ethnicaly! Read the difference nationality and ethnicity. And it's really stupid of you to think only people of certain nationality can do certain articles :-) Not mentioning the fact he was ethnicaly Belarusian (at least partly). Free Belarus (talk) 17:14, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand the difference and the difference is irrelevant here. He is a Pole and this page is about Poles. It is for Poles just like Kościuszko. It is for Kościuszko. —Stephen (talk) 17:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This difference is very relevant here, that page is about Poles as the ethnic group, and he was not an ethnic Pole (at least you didn't bring links to that). He spoke Belarusian, he was born on the territory of Belarus, he was even baptised in the orthodox church like done by Belarusians. Yes, he had a Polish nationality since it was all the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth then, and he fought for the independence of Poland, yes, but that doesn't change the fact he was not of Polish ethnicity. Just for the record, in a discussion above they didn't enter Harry Warner because of him not being of Polish but Jewish ethnicity. It's the same case! Free Belarus (talk) 17:24, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

hmmm. Kosciuszko didnt speak polish????where did You get that from???  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.114.239.79 (talk) 18:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC) 

Polish people

I think there should be more faces added to the title block of famous polish people. There are currently only 8 and none of them are living. For comparison the page 'English people' is headed by 21 faces. Perhaps another row of 4 faces. My first suggestion would be Lech Wałęsa, then an athlete perhaps. And another two contemporary faces, suggestions please... And if anyone know the html these pictures should be posted to the Polish version of the page as well. 91.108.14.78 (talk) 00:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, it has to be decided first who is Polish. From my encounters the common consensus from modern day Poles (that is Polish people from the Republic of Poland in Central/Eastern Europe) is that they consider only people from Poland and grew up there to be Poles. Descendants of immigrants such as Polish Americans are not Poles from their standards, nor are Polish Brazilians. So that eliminates about 12,000,000 from the pool of whose pictures to choose from. (EDIT: oh i just discovered these groups have heir own categories and pages complete with faces!) There are plenty of athletes, warriors/soldiers, artists, and politicians to pick. So Lech Wałęsa, then that one Pole who plays for the Germans as an athlete I suppose (forget his name i dont follow sports,) annnnd cant think of another Zantorzi (talk) 17:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

PLEASE READ poles in the netherlands

according to the dutch official statistic thing there are 68.844 poles in the netherlands please add it to the list i don't know how it works please do it for me thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.202.137.41 (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Numbers by nation

The infobox section seems to have the number of Polish citizens by country, but the article itself is about Poles as an ethnic group. This should be returned to the old way which lists the number of ethnic Poles by nation, the way it does for the Italians, Scots, French, etc. Sbrianhicks (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

And how would you want to satisfy WP:V in that case? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 16:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Where are the numbers of Poles in USA and Brazil??? The list is not good... 187.107.37.63 (talk) 01:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Census surveys just like with all the other ethnic groups on Wikipedia. Sbrianhicks (talk) 18:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem here is (as noted in a previous thread) that not all countries have data on this. There is, for instance, no question about ethnicity on the US-census. The 2000-census only asked about ancestry (not equal to ethnicity, multiple answers possible), on the 2010 census, they didn't ask about ancestry at all. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

So, then why do we have such numbers on English, Scots, Irish, French, Welsh, Spanish, Italians, Germans, Czechs, Russians, Greeks, etc.? Sbrianhicks (talk) 23:33, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hm. You will notice that for Germans and Russians it says (XYZ ancestry). Maybe that could be the solution here. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

That's right, there's a mix of data with different meanings, here. Should those statistics express ethnicity or nationality is a question, but in any way the "10M poles in the US" is just ridiculous (same for Brazil). There might have been a lot of people emmigrating from this country but it's been several generations since so ethnicity is no longer relevant.82.67.124.143 (talk) 19:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with SEb_az86556. These statistics are obscene. The article is about ETHNIC POLES yet the population box seems to include German and Jews invariably. Why is this? Soundsboy (talk) 05:39, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

DO POLES REALLY HAVE SIGNIFICANT GERMANIC AND CELTIC ADMIXTURE???

I have read many books about Polish history and never seen information about so called "significant Germanic and Celtic admixture" (You would imagine that Poles are pidgin nation, e.g. 50% Slavic, 30% Germanic, 20% Celtic). The article which is cited (20th reference) Prehistory and protohistory of Poland clearly states: "Celtic, Germanic and Baltic tribes inhabited various parts of Poland" - and this is correct, THEY HAD INHABITED AREA BEFORE SLAVIC TRIBES ARRIVED, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY SIGNIFICANTLY CONTRIBUTE INTO POLISH ETHNOSIS.

TO CONCLUDE: I think that information: "with significant Germanic, Celtic and to a lesser extent Baltic admixtures" should be removed, otherwise it needs verifiable sources cited (genetic research, academic book etc). Regards! Wojgniew (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Poles i Belarus: new 2009 census data vs 1999 census data

Few days ago Belarus National Census 2009 data were officially published, so these data were added into the infobox. Previuos official 1999 data were updated with the recent census values. User Polish29 added 1999 census data again like an upper range value with the explanation:"two refs are acceptable (i.e. range)". It is surprising why we need outdated census numbers? Can we decide the range creation (mb possible original research?) using two official censuses 1999 and 2009 data? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

• The problem with census results (as shown in some Western countries in recent years), is that the questions asked by census officials change with leadership, resulting in segments of the population being left out. Over 100,000 difference is too much to be considered usual within a single decade. The original source (CIA) lists Polish ethnic minority in Belarus at 3.9% (1999 census). If the total number of citizens is correct (9,648,533 as of July 2010 est.), the number of ethnic Poles should be around 376,292 instead of 400,000 mentioned in our article. However, both sources seem equally credible. [1] --- Polish29 (talk) 20:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
  • CIA source uses official Belarus census data as the new data were not published yet. But CIA USES official (Lukashenka regime) census data. Decrease 100,000 is too much? I think so, but it is MY original research, I guess. But I can't change this legally published official census data, isn't it? If CIA Factbood had no time to use latest data just published - we need to do that and provide'em. It is our Wikipedia mission, I see.
  • Can you mix in this infobox outdated 1999 census data and 2009 up-to-date data? I don't think so, you can (or have) add a reference, where you add an old value and pay a user's attention to the strong pop. decrease, yeah? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 21:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
  • And about your calculations. You are making YOUR private decision with the census 1999 ethic Poles share being stable till 2010, next YOU are deciding to use U.S.Census Bureau projections (instead of the actual cemsus 2009 data) and YOU calculates YOUR estimation value and next YOU add this ORIGINAL RESEARCH to the infobox. Is is leagal for the Wikipedia? I don't think so as this value was not published in the relevant sources. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 22:20, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I downloaded the RAR file from the link you provided. The document is called Бюллетень_Республика.pdf. On page 22 (row #4, col. #6) it is said that Poles constitute 3.1% of the general population of 9,503,807. The World Factbook claims that the percentage point is 3.9%. It is NOT our fault that the numbers don't match. However, the obvious difference is worth mentioning. --- Polish29 (talk) 00:53, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

• These date CAN NOT match as these figures are from different official censuses: 3.9% from outdated 1999 census, but 3.1% from up-to-date 2009 census. These figures are coming from the same source, but 2009 census data are newest. Population dynamics need be located in the article but not in the infobox. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

• • Polish29 reverted my edition and added again Polish29 private calculations with the link to the CIA FactBook (these calculations are not present in this source). Does Polish29 claime (in fact) the 1999 Census data are still relevant even after 2009 Census? Why new census data can not replace outdated 1999 Census? WP: I just don't like it? Polish29 offered the RANGE - 2009 Census data comes from recent official source, but based on thePolish29 PRIVATE HYPOTHESIS of the constant 1999 Poles share value CALCULATIONS are Polish29 ORIGINAL RESEARCH. So (see WP:OR) is not any relevant contribution to the Wikipedia, isn't it? I've erased Polish29 original research - I have do that. But Polish29 didn't agree with my step.
  • And Polish29 made his irrelevant revert with the explanation " What is this? Attack of the Killer Tomatoes? CONSENSUS IN TALK PLEASE" which has (in my opinion) some signs of the not ethic behavior. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:52, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

• • IN MY OPINION YOU SHOULD DISPLAY FIGURES FROM BOTH SOURCES (1999 and 2009) WITH APPROPRIATE NOTE. Wojgniew (talk) 21:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • But what sources? One source is Census 2009 but the other - selfmade calculations declaring constant census 1999 Poles share. We can not add such kind of an original research, I see. You are sure in 1999 Lukashenka census? Or Soviet census 1989 is better with larger Poles share? In the infobox we are adding more recent values, history - into the article body. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 21:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Population mistake

This page says there are 38,860,000 Poles in Poland. According to Poland, Poland's total population in June of 2010 was 38,192,000. Do the math, guys. --SergeiXXX (talk) 06:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Provide the source and I'll add the updated figure. Soundsboy (talk) 05:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Collage

It's possible to link the pictures directly to the article on the figures, by adding the |Link=article to the image syntax. That will be a nice modification to the already good assemblage of pictures as a collage, as this technique allows. UncleSerajah (talk) 16:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

You should be ashamed of yourselves, having mention of the 4 ethnic types (Nordic etc.) in the article! These theories have been completely discredited tens of years ago, are just plain obviously unscientific, and provided ideological justification for German Fascism! You will not see any such thing discussed in any scientific journal! This should be plainly obvious to you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.42.58 (talk) 09:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

images

In the images in the infobox I'm thinking of replacing Domeyko with Stefan Banach who really really deserves to be in there. Any objections? I'd also like to fit Kalecki in there somewhere but don't think there's space.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)