Talk:Stormfront (website)

This Page is biased

Hey, not sure if you guys noticed but the SPLC is not a neutral source. They are on opposite sides of the idealogical spectrum and have clear and obvious reliability issues when it comes to being biased/unbiased. ~D2525 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.120.205 (talk) 00:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if you noticed, but saying the SPLC is not a reliable source on the subject of Stormfront is a little like saying the FBI is not a reliable source on Dillinger. It has no reliability issues at all on this subject and if you think it does, you'll have to show an example of something they got wrong. There's no reason not to use that source in this article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

That's like saying that the United Kingdom is a racist country because different peoples views are allowed and free to be aired (at least for now...). Whether or not Black was a KKK member etc etc etc is irrelivent, that's like saying that because a criminal sets up a forum discussing crime, that it's a site that JUST promotes crime.

The fact that there are lots of citations calling Stormfront a Nazi organisation and such is also a ridiculous reason for Wikipedia to state such an idea as fact, rather than the article being written as: "many organisations consider Stormfront racist... etc". If lots of Nazis, KKK members, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, or whoever, made websites and statements online claiming that a Jewish forum was a Semite supremacy website would that mean Wikipedia would state that as fact aswell?

There are pleanty of citations that state Golliwogs and other visual stereotypes as racist; that doesn't make such accusations fact.

If there were 18 citations saying/suggeting Adolf Hitler was a nice guy, would Wikipedia start off the article saying "Adolf Hitler was a nice Austrian bloke who loved his dog Blondi."? No? I didn't think so.

Having been on Stormfront to read some bitsnbobs a while back, I can say that it is full of Nazis and other such people; however, not everyone on there is, as far as I'm aware; nor does the site itself actively promote such things - Black, moderators and other members may, but to say Stormfront is a Nazi site is like saying Islam is against freedom, despite there being pleanty of Muslims who aren't. People are individuals: there are people on Stormfront who are just members because they hate the double standards that work against white people in todays Western societies; I expect this article is included in their lists of such doublethinks. --Kurtle (talk) 14:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is by asking a rhetorical question about Hitler. The question is clearly irrelevant. I think it's pretty clear if you've read Stormfront that it is a neo-Nazi website. You admit that it's full of neo-Nazi's. Just because the administration is careful about trying not to look like a hate site doesn't mean that they don't advocate neo-Nazi ideology. Even if many of the stormfront posters hate what they consider double-standards, that doesn't change the primary vision and ideology of the website. It's very obvious that most of the posters there dislike people who are non-white, want to maintain geographically separate borders for non-whites, blame the "decay" of western civilization on non-white, admire Adolf Hitler and the Nazi's (you can find discussions where the mention how the swastika makes them proud of what white people can do and fills them with hope), etc. It's clearly a gathering place for people who adhere to neo-Nazi ideology. Even if not everyone there would consider themself a neo-Nazi, that doesn't change what clearly is the main attraction of Strormfront for its members. Yes, people are individuals, but the article isn't about exceptions to the rule. It's about the website and it attracts people for its neo-Nazi ideologies. I don't see how you can deny that. 74.13.3.57 (talk) 23:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC) Not logged in.

Here's something to think about. Wikipedia claims to be a free encyclopedia. BUT it needs to be paid for through private contributions. Is it "the free encyclopedia" or the "user-supported encyclopedia"? The moral: It's important to note what a website claims to be, and what it claims not to be. I've inspected the site in question fairly thoroughly, and it isn't a cut-and-dried neo-nazi site. Instead, it seems to discuss everything from neutral topics (civil rights, affirmative actions, etc) to hitler-worship. But it wasn't made for Nazi glorification (to my knowledge... though I suspect that an interview with the founders would yield an agreement to my assertion), even though there is an undeniable segment of the site located on there.

Is a cafe full of nazis a "Nazi eating establishment"? Obviously, no. The presence of neo-nazis & co needs to be noted, but stormfront.org isn't a nazi site. Let's not let personal convictions get in the way; The world, reading wikipedia, deserves better than that. Mr. Kent (talk) 04:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Please review WP:RS. Please do not make any edits unless they are explicitly supported by reliable sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:24, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I did, and found that all of the sources listed identify that Stormfront is commonly believed to be a Neo-nazi site. Although it lacks anti-communist policies (a defining feature of nazism), the sentiment needs to be reported, but the existence of a sentiment does not make that sentiment a fact. Calling it "neo-nazi" is blatant use of a buzzword, which is entirely unsupported. http://nazi.org is a neo-nazi site; Stormfront.org is not. Mr. Kent (talk) 18:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the sources simply state that it is a neo-Nazi site, not that it is "commonly believed to be". Do you have any reliable sources that state that it isn't neo-Nazi? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear, but the majority of people state their opinions as facts. Why? It's easier, to start with. By the way, could you give me a concise description of a "neo-nazi", to see why we are disagreeing? Mr. Kent (talk) 22:07, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

An editor's personal opinions are not relevant to Wikipedia articles; Wikipedia only cares about the views of reliable sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:25, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

What I'm looking for is a definition of "Neo-Nazi." Seeing as you are opposed to honest discussion (where is this "previous consensus" anyway?), I looked it up on Neo-Nazism. "Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof." Nazism Says " It was a unique variety of fascism that involved biological racism and antisemitism." Now, find me a place on Stormfront.org that actually supports fascism. You seem very keen not to discuss anything... Mr. Kent (talk) 22:34, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Please review WP:NOR; Wikipedia editors cannot decide whether or not something is "neo-Nazi" based on their own application of Wikipedia's definitions of the term. Rather, they must rely on the views of reliable sources to guide them. Also, Comment on content, not on the contributor - that includes statements like "you are opposed to honest discussion" and "You seem very keen not to discuss anything". Finally, "previous consensus" will be found on this talk page, or in the talk page archives; please review them. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Now, find me a place on Stormfront.org that actually supports fascism" As already mentioned, that is OR and that is exactly what we should NOT be doing. Nobody is avoiding the discussion. It has been discussed over and over. I'm sorry you got here late. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree, this page is biased agaisnt everyone that is not politically correct. Seems like soon it will be a crim to be white Norum 01:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Yup, just plain political incorrectness. Comparing Jew's to Grima Wormtongue and calling for the genocide of Muslims is TOTALLY not neo-nazi or racist. (You can thank Cracked.com for that one: http://www.cracked.com/article_18568_the-5-greatest-books-with-psychotic-fanbases.html ) Soxwon (talk) 01:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Soxwon: Actually, it's not. The nazis didn't have much to do with muslims, as i recall. They ARE racist, it's pointless to argue with that. But neo-nazi is a contentious label. I honestly cannot see why you are so opposed to making sure that they are fairly represented. It's sad, actually.

Norum: Yeah, pretty much. Example? Backlash against the boers in South Africa. Mr. Kent (talk) 19:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources that cover the site's viewpoint 'fairly': feel free to add them. If not: drop the stick. Jarkeld (talk) 22:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

This is one of the worst articles on Wikipedia

I'm no fan of Stormfront, but the rampant POV and editorializing presented in this article shames us all. Does it really matter who considers Stormfront a white-supremacist or neo-nazi website? Does the fact that some reasonably prominent individuals hold this opinion of the website justify us including these OPINIONS as factual information in an encyclopedia? Yeah, i don't think so either. They claim to be a white-nationalist website, so that's obviously not in dispute, but they deny being white supremacist or neo-nazi. Perhaps the opening sentence should read along the lines of "X,Y,Z consider Stormfront to be a white supremacist website, etc." rather than "Stormfront IS a white supremacist website." This is just the tip of the iceberg however, the entire article is absolutely crawling with uncited editorials and original research. If this article can't be cleaned up, then it should really be a candidate for deletion. --24.179.209.239 (talk) 06:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it DOES matter who considers Stormfront to be supremacist or neo-nazi. Stormfront may not self-identify as such, but the forum meets the definitions and they are consistently described as such in the media. Playing the "Well, Stormfront doesn't say they are X" game would be shameful. A spade is a spade, even if it calls itself something else. The description is well-cited. If you have issues with other parts of the article, by all means be bold. But be sure to adhere to NPOV and verify. Glaucus (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"it DOES matter who considers Stormfront to be supremacist or neo-nazi." Um, forgive me, but no, no it doesn't. I also dispute your definition of "well cited." What you don't seem to understand is that this is supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA. An encyclopedia's job is to report facts, not opinions. No matter how widely held those opinions may be. The definitions of white supremacist/nationalist and even neo-nazi are themselves the subject of much debate so it makes little sense to attempt to state that SF objectively "meets the definitions." Who's definition? Some people believe 'white nationalism' and 'white supremacy' are the same thing, others dispute this. The point is that this is all very murky and you'll have to do better than that to justify attaching these descriptions to the website as a statement of fact in an encyclopedia.--24.179.209.239 (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

It is a fact that the opinion of reliable sources is that Stormfront is neo-nazi. It's Wikipedia's job to report facts -- and the fact is, opinions exist and can be cited; and we're citing the generally held opinion that Stormfront is neo-nazi. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

That would be fine, so long as it's clear that what you're reporting is opinion. As of this moment that is not the case. The opening of this article states AS OBJECTIVE FACT that Stormfront is white supremacist and neo-nazi. I don't believe this can be justified for reasons I've already stated.--24.179.209.239 (talk) 04:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The consensus of reliable sources is that Stormfront is neo-Nazi, white supremacist, and antisemitic. That's pretty much what Wikipedia considers to be a fact. Do you have any reliable sources that dispute this assessment? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Virtually every one of the "reliable sources" cited is an article in online news service or journal. This is all moot anyway because, as I have stated, the very definitions of these terms is highly controversial. I'd have no problem finding numerous reliable sources, or at least what wikipedia considers reliable sources, that disagree on the very definition of these terms. At the very least, this murkiness should be acknowledged in the article in some fashion. By the standard presented here, we would be justified in stating as objective fact that the Mona Lisa is a brilliant work of art. It would be no problem finding numerous "reliable sources" that consider the Mona Lisa to be a good/great painting. Does that justify opening the Mona Lisa article with "The Mona Lisa is an objectively fantastic work of art?" We could state that the Mona Lisa is a highly influential work, or we could state that the Mona Lisa is widely regarded as a fantastic work of art, but simply stating that the Mona Lisa IS a great work of art is obviously problematic for an encyclopedia--24.179.209.239 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• How does their being available online have any bearing on their reliability? The only people this is "murky" to seem to be IP editors with relatively few edits on unrelated topics. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

"Virtually every one of the "reliable sources" cited is an article in online news service or journal". First of all, if true, why would that matter? Moreover, it's simply not true; half the sources are printed books. In any event, Wikipedia relies on the consensus of reliable sources. Do you have any sources that dispute the fact that Stormfront is white supremacist and neo-Nazi? Please make sure any future responses include references to reliable sources about Stormfront that dispute these characterizations. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The sources are not unreliable because they're online, they're unreliable because they're almost universally "special investigations" or editorials. This is all beside the point. As to the "murkiness" I point you to white nationalism. The entire article is devoted to the controversy surrounding the definition of the word. Can my fundamental complaint be addressed, and would anyone object strongly if i were to reword to the opening paragraph to something along the lines of "SF is a white-nationalist website that is also widely regarded as supremacist/neo-nazi etc" and then cite the pre-existing references?--24.179.209.239 (talk) 05:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Are you for real? The cited sources Time, NY Times, SPLC, Daily Telegraph all publish actual paper periodicals. The BBC is...well, the BBC, hardly a "online source". And 3 books are cited, as well as an academic paper. Even the Jewish Journal is an actual weekly paper. Simply put, you don't even make sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:38, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

24.179.209.239, right now, on the Stormfront website, there is an on-going poll for "Favourite Waffen-SS Division", and another lengthy thread which shows a video of a speech by Hitler about women, and dozens of responses in which his views are lauded, Nazi Germany praised, and regrets voiced regarding the outcome of World War II. Now, please stop posting nonsense about Stormfront; instead bring reliable sources about Stormfront that dispute these characterizations. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:54, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

And here I was thinking this was a website about the weather but no . . . I'm pretty sure this is now just the IP trolling. Sol (talk) 06:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Really, Sol? I was under the impression that you agreed that it was bad form to comment on contributors instead of content. I still agree that this IP has a valid point. The site is often described as neo-nazi and white power but that does not mean that it is. Racist site but WP:LABEL still applies. Cptnono (talk) 09:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed it does. From WP:LABEL "racist . . . best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject," Sol (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree we should use such terms. However, we need to put it in the proper context. Instead of applying it as the definition we should simply move it down a line saying that "it is often considered x".Cptnono (talk) 01:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The administrators of the site have seen fit to create a forum specifically for holocaust denial, a neo-nazi staple. But, sure, the site only HAPPENS TO HAVE a huge neo-nazi following. --King Öomie 13:33, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Yes. I don't object to the Neo-nazi associations that surround this site, but please remember WP:NPOV, specifically "Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as 'widespread views', etc. For example, an article should not state that 'genocide is an evil action', but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil.'" Mr. Kent (talk) 23:47, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

In this case there are many reliable sources that state the forum is neo-Nazi, and there are no reliable sources that state anything to the contrary. Therefore, this appears to be a simple fact, not an "opinion". Of course, if you can produce reliable sources saying it is not neo-Nazi, then we have something to discuss. I don't hold out much hope for that, though; we've been asking another editor to do the same for over 2 months now, with no success whatsoever. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I will change the introduction.

I have been to Stormfront and the site doesn't describe itself as neo-nazi or white supremacist but as white nationalist:

"We are a community of White Nationalists. There are thousands of organizations promoting the interests, values and heritage of non-Whites. We promote ours. You are welcome to browse our seven million posts, but you must register before you can post to any forum except those designated as open to guests." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.234.222.35 (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I reverted the change. The neo-nazi & white supremacist labels are reliably sourced. Jarkeld (talk) 17:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

// A gossip blogger from the Telegraph, an obscure article from Arizona and SPLC are neither reliable nor factual sources.

You cannot present an opinion as a fact.

I will remove this part again and once again I refer to the website which explicity describe itself as white nationalist.

"We are a community of White Nationalists. There are thousands of organizations promoting the interests, values and heritage of non-Whites. We promote ours. You are welcome to browse our seven million posts, but you must register before you can post to any forum except those designated as open to guests." 81.234.222.35 (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC) Nisse

Unless you can gain consensus here, on this talk page, for your desired change, it will not stay in. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you've overlooked the actual sources. There are more than a dozen references listed for "white supremacist" and four sources listed for "neo-nazi", ranging from the NYT to the BBC. Your personal opinion doesn't outweigh reputable sources. Glaucus (talk) 20:02, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes I only looked at the sources regarding neo-nazi. I thought that those source seem unreliable especially since nazism is a complete political system while Stormfront doesn't seem to endorse nazi ideology (corporatism etc). 81.234.222.35 (talk) 21:11, 3 January 2011 (UTC) Nisse

As I pointed out in the section above, when I visited the site last month, there was an on-going poll for "Favourite Waffen-SS Division", and another lengthy thread which showed a video of a speech by Hitler about women, with dozens of responses in which his views were lauded, Nazi Germany praised, and regrets voiced regarding the outcome of World War II. Stormfront is, according to both reliable sources and common sense, a neo-Nazi forum. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

You seeing a tread there means nothing here. You know that. Yes, some of the users must be Neo-nazi but the site is not officially. WP:LABEL applies.Cptnono (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

W:V and WP:NPOV apply, and those are what is used here. WP:LABEL, which is a guideline (not policy), is quite clear that labels should not be used unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject - which is, in fact, the case here: the terms "supremacist", "neo-Nazi" etc. are widely used by reliable sources to describe Stormfront. If you have reliable sources that contradict this view bring them forward. And my seeing neo-Nazi threads, of which there are many similar, means that the reliable sources are also accurate. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and I've just added 9 more reliable sources indicating that Stormfront is a neo-Nazi site, because there seemed to be some concern that "only" 4 sources described it that way. Please let me know if you need more, there are plenty available. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:58, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Or you could adhere to the spirit of the spirit of the MoS and NPOV by simply not making it a label. Describe it in the second sentence. SInce there are so many source3s available, just say something like "it is often considered.." or something. Citation overkill boarders on being POINTY and disruptive.Cptnono (talk) 04:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

This article adheres to both the letter and the spirit of the MOS and NPOV. Insisting that we not use the common, reliably sourced and factual descriptors, and objecting to additional reliable sources showing the descriptors are "widely used by reliable sources", itself "borders on being POINTY and disruptive". Jayjg ^(talk) 04:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:CITEKILL and then explain why you think that a label is better than a clear explanation. Which benifits the reader more?Cptnono (talk)

That's an interesting essay, though it has no actual authority; in any event, the article doesn't even violate it, since the cites are grouped, exactly as recommended by that essay. Also, please explain why you think weasel words are better than a factual and informative description that no reliable sources dispute. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Because NPOV is not only a policy but one of the five pillars of this project. You are doping a disservice to the reader by applying a contentious label over clearly explaining it. Even if you do not like my proposed wording, an alternative wording would be appreciated since it is a complete violation of what we are supposed to be doing here. Why do we need to apply a contentious label over spelling it out in a NPOV manner? There is zero valid reason.Cptnono (talk) 06:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's one of the pillars, which is why it's good the wording complies with it. Your attempts to change that are what actually is "doing the reader a disservice", since there's no indication the description is in any way "contentious". You have been asked many times to provide reliable sources that disagree with these characterizations, but have been completely unable or unwilling to do so. Your personal opinion that it's "contentious" is not good enough, nor is your view that "we need more white supremacists editing here"; rather, you need reliable sources. Please stop just repeating yourself, or defacing the article with tags; instead, bring reliable sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:48, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Primary sources can be used as sources in articles about the subject as long as they are handled with care.WP:ABOUTSELF This doesn;t even apply since we are not making a claim but expanding on the secondary RS. But you ignored the issue of why neutering the lead is better than explaining the issue. Of course the site is associated with all sorts of unPCness but there is no reason to apply the label without simply saying it is instead a common description. This is a fix that would take one sentence and a few words. The need to apply a label is just not needed and is very weird. And if the dispute was resolved it would not be edit warred over, would it? How about coming to a solution that will decrease further disruption? Why do you need it to be a label?Cptnono (talk) 06:57, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Primary sources can't be used where they contradict multiple reliable secondary sources. The answers to your questions have all been given, and your personal disagreement and willingness to continue arguing without any reliable sources to back you up don't actually create an NPOV issue. You must provide reliable secondary sources to back your viewpoints. No amount of rhetoric or argumentation here will do. Without them, the issue is moot, and the tag will have to go. Nothing but reliable secondary sources from now on, please. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:15, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure that there must be a page on http://stormfront.org that defends its collective beliefs, which would be useful as a non-point of view point/counterpoint type thing. Like "It is widely accused of supporting Neo-nazism and extremism, but <page> claims that "Quote." End of argument. Mr. Kent (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

A page on that website will never be considered NPOV. Jarkeld (talk) 00:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Please review WP:RS as to why we couldn't use that primary source to contradict multiple reliable secondary sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:01, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The article should state the website's official line somewhere. If the perception of the website is different to insiders than it is to outsiders, then that should be made clear. There are many Featured Articles that use official websites as sources. The article Microsoft is good example of one. We use the United States Census Bureau website for census information on Wikipedia because it is the best place to get it. We use personal webpages in biographies in the right circumstances (Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves). The best place to get an organization's opinion of itself is its own website. We are allowed to do that. Jayjg, do you think Stormfront is unreliable for it's own official line. Yes or no? Bear in mind that Microsoft websites are reliable for the article on Microsoft, and that www.milliondollarhomepage.com is a reliable source for the featured article The Million Dollar Homepage. We just have to use official websites appropriately. Cut it the mindless wiki-lawyering. The opening sentences of this article are not written in stone.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The article does state the website's official line; the very first statement is that it is "white nationalist". And yes, Stormfront is unreliable for just about everything it says about itself; I don't think Microsoft is a good analogy. Which Stormfront page did you want to use as a source? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• Even talking about whether or not the site itself can be used as a source 1) has little to do with the intro. That starts looking like a debate which belongs elsewhere in the article. 2) A govt. agency or a Fortune 100 company is hardly the same at Stormfront's website. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:44, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't actually referring to the intro, or anything really specific. I really just want to bring Jayjg back into reality. It's not in our best interest to have experienced wikipedians driving away newbies with aggressive lawyer-speak. I understand that this website/article is quite different from the two I mentioned, but the point is some of our best articles use official websites as a sources. If this website disputes how it is termed in the media, or popular culture, or whatever, that would be a good thing to cover in the article; readers simply won't know it's an issue if we don't mention it. It seems to me that the website's outside perception must be an issue, or else this talkpage wouldn't be so lively. In my mind an 'official' statement from the 'official' website would be a good reference to use for that kind of thing. Not as a ref to 'prove' it's not not a hate-site, only as a ref to show that the website disputes how it is characterised in such a way. That should be reasonable. I can't give an example of something we could use from the site, but maybe someone reading this will come up with something and we could look it over. It's just that the constant tag-teaming of miffed newbies and less experienced editors isn't helping this article progress to the next level.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:23, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

• So you typed that whole thing to essentially say "sometimes the websites are permissible."? Niteshift36 (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

NPOV tag

I removed it, since the dispute seems to be not with Wikipedia but with the real-world consensus re Stormfront which we merely document. Guy (Help!) 14:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, obviously. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

And I have readded it. There is an ongoing dispute and tags should not be removed until it is resolved. Since neither of us is convincing the other, we could try an RfC or something along those lines.Cptnono (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it again. There is no "on-going dispute", since you have produced no reliable secondary sources to support your position. An editor cannot tag an article simply because they dislike it; rather, they must actually produce sources backing up the addition of the tag. Feel free to start an RFC, but the tag will stay out until such time as you provide reliable secondary sources, or an RFC supports your position. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Why are you edit warring over a tag? Like I said, we can chose to do an RfC, see a noticeboard, or other options. Edit warring over a tag does not improve the article and is bad form.Cptnono (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

What an odd question. Your tagging has been removed by three different editors,[1][2][3] and restored only by you. It is you who have been edit-warring over this tag, so you need to apply your advice to yourself. Start the RFC or noticeboard thread about your personal concerns, since your defacing the article with this unwarranted tag will clearly not improve it in any way. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

And all three are wrong in doing so. But how about I find diffs for every IP that has tried to remove the violating label? IPs are not only vandals, and you as an admin should know that and also not facilitate or participate in an edit war. So you mentioned sources. Keep in mind that we are allowed to use primary sources with caution. The website clearly states that it is white nationalist. And secondary sources can even be found. Just a quick search found one where the operator states (maybe incorrectly) that he is not a racist.[4] I can keep on going easily enough with google archive searches but I assume we are not playing a game and editors here are aware that it is disputed. I do not believe the organizer for a second but it doesn't mean that we can ignore WP:LABEL simply because their views are frowned upon by most of society. So please, provide reasoning for edit warring over a tag when it is clear that the label is contentious and disputed. I totally agree that we need to make it clear as day in the lead that the website is often called racist (BLP standards do not apply here so I will state that I full on believe it is a racist website) but it is not OK to apply demeaning labels if they are disputed. You have also failed to address why any label but "white nationalist" is needed in the first line. Why can't it be simply worded in a NPOV manner in the second sentence that they are called neo-nazis and racists? The bulk of secondary sources make it clear that they are white nationalist/supremacist while only some sources use other labels. Cptnono (talk) 06:47, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

How many of those IPs know anything about policy? And, as shown, it is you who are edit-warring, no-one else. Also, as has been explained before, this article complies fully with WP:LABEL. And finally, also as explained before, repeating yourself won't help or change anything; the only thing that will have any impact at all is reliable secondary sources that support your viewpoint. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I did, for one. Not every anonymous editor is a vandal... I found some fun stats on here. Mr. Kent (talk) 00:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

You did what? Not every anonymous editor is a vandal, but few of them understand policy. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

My viewpoint? You mean that the site is without any doubt "nationalist" and is often called "neo-nazi"? That one? It looks like you and those arguing for the label have a viewpoint (that it is a neo-nazi site). I don't believe I have said that it is not. I have simply said that ti is a contentious label that is not the most often used.Cptnono (talk) 04:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)Cptnono (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

As explained before, repeating yourself won't help or change anything; the only thing that will have any impact at all is reliable secondary sources that support your viewpoint. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:27, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

"As explained before, repeating yourself won't help or change anything . . ." If only Jayjg would listen to his/her self, this article might stand some chance of coming into compliance with the NPOV standard.

Bandying about the term "Neo-nazi"

I've made a change to the opening paragraph, concerning the aforementioned word. Now, what are Neo-Nazis? People who glorify Fascism, anti-communism, militarism, with anti-semitic views. Does Stormfront fulfill this? No. Some people there glorify fascism, but most dislike the military, don't care about communists, and often express anti-jewish sentiment. Clearly, these are not Nazis. Lets keep the buzzwords out of here. Mr. Kent (talk) 04:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

That's how reliable sources describe it - please review WP:RS. Please do not make any further changes to the article unless they are explicitly supported by reliable secondary sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Again? Really? Why is anything archived? Niteshift36 (talk) 07:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Again? It is still not inline with our standards. This will continue to come up until it is. Most sources say "nationalist". Many say other things but those are contentious and disputed labels. It can be addressed out of the first line. There is no reason to keep it in the first line but it is easy to beat up on those who have views frowned upon by society. So if editors want to be serious and figure out how to fix what is a problem then the issue can go away. Until then, why are you surprised to see it come up so often?Cptnono (talk) 07:30, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Seriously? You're on the side of an editor who has made all of four article edits in his entire Wikipedia history, and has also today defended the National Association for the Advancement of White People and White nationalism? The fact that Stormfront readers are uncomfortable with this label is irrelevant. Go find some reliable secondary sources that say the forum is not neo-Nazi, as you've been asked to do many times. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:43, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Has it occurred to you that I read the pages in question, saw flaws, and fixed them? This IS how wikipedia functions, after all... As a matter of fact, I've made a few dozen anonymous edits(on a wide variety of subjects), but finally got around to making an account. Lets not discriminate based on my experience.

On the subject of labels, Mr. Obama has been 'labeled' a socialist. Is he one? That's up for debate. Does his wikipedia page say that he is a socialist (which would require publishing opinion as fact, while not allowing him a voice), or does it say that the sentiment exists?

Cptnono, You hit the nail on the head. Negative opinions can't get in the way of a rational approach to knowledge... The wikipedia-reading world really does deserve better. It's a lot of responsibility, but in the end it's worth it. ;) Even if no school will ever accept it as a legitimate source. (possibly due to significant POVs on fairly important subjects.) Mr. Kent (talk) 18:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Note: Discussion obviously needs to take place, hence the Neutrality tag. Discuss.Mr. Kent (talk) 18:48, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• This has been discussed. Consensus was reached. And every so often, another WP:SPA comes along and says "oh no, we can't call them that" and the same few hold-outs jump back in and repeat their same argument and fail to produce the RS's they've been asked to produce. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:37, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• As far as I know, there's just one "hold-out" who keeps doing this. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• I was trying to avoid pointing the finger at a single editor. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Have you reviewed WP:RS yet? There are many reliable sources that state the forum is neo-Nazi; do you have any that state it isn't? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:14, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The only source that I can cite is common sense; Therefore, popular opinion does not equal fact. Is it really so wrong as to fairly word something? Even if you(and most people) disagree with their views, they still have the right to be heard, and to be heard fairly. Also, Wikipedia:BITEMr. Kent (talk) 22:01, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

"Common sense" varies wildly from individual to individual; Wikipedia relies on WP:RS instead. Websites don't have a "right to be heard" on Wikipedia, they have a "right" to be represented in the way that reliable sources portray them. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but this does not vary: WP:NPOV 'Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as "widespread views", etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."' Mr. Kent (talk) 23:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Please review the previous discussions on this topic. In this case, there are many reliable sources that state the forum is neo-Nazi, and there are no reliable sources that state anything to the contrary. Therefore, this appears to be a simple fact, not an "opinion". Of course, if you can produce reliable sources saying it is not neo-Nazi, then we have something to discuss. I don't hold out much hope for that, though; we've been asking another editor to do the same for over 2 months now, with no success whatsoever. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:55, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• NPOV doesn't require that an article avoid stating the obvious, as stated by RS. It simply requires articles to be balanced. You, and you ilk, have been invited over and over to provide RS's that contradict what the cited RS's say. Thus far, you have not. Until such time, the only thing disputing the term isn't a reliable source, just your opinion. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Not true. One was already provided. Even if more are not found ( I certainly don;t mind looking for more) the scenario is simple: Sources all agree that it is white nationalist. Many add on to that. We are only obligated to define them as :"white nationalist". If you want to define it as neo-nazi or anyhting else then you are in the wrong place. Simply say that many consider it neo-nazi" not that it is. Doing otherwise is against WP:LABEL since it is not the most often used definition, it is controversial and it is contested. So again, I will ask: WHY? Why do editors need to define it as neo-nazi? Why rock the boat on something that is an easy fix especially when the guidelines and policies allow for either version dependant on interpretation. How about you instead focus on making it a better article instead of attack piece. Or even better yet: How about you try to make it an article that is not edit warred and bickered over every other week? You can provide the facts in a NPOV way.Cptnono (talk) 08:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Would you point to that source Cptnono I can't see it and you would need to look for more. WP:WEIGHT is pretty clear here. As to the hope that this will not be subject to edit warring I doubt that will ever happen. On all the extreme political sites you have apologists trying to argue NPOV means a position half way between their extremism and the main sources so it will always be there. So we use sources we apply weight --Snowded ^TALK 08:55, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I missed it too. Please point it out. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The article is fine, it is the behavior of editors who are suggesting changing the wording, and from the looks of it, are guilty of extreme wiki-lawyering and tendentiousness, that needs to be corrected. Having read most of the discussion above, I see many legitimate sources stating that site is neo-nazi, not sure what the hub-bub is about. Soxwon (talk) 07:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

And honestly, is a neutrality check needed? Look at this talkpage, NOT ONE ESTABLISHED USER OUTSIDE OF CPTONO HAS AGREED WITH THE PROPOSITION. Outside of SPAs like MR. Kent and Kurtle and a few IPs, no one has seen the need for change, I don't see the need for a debate. Soxwon (talk) 08:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Who declared me an SPA? I joined wikipedia a week ago and have consistently recieved nothing but abuse. I agree with the proposition... This page needs cleaning up Mr. Kent (talk) 15:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• You agree with what proposition? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

That a non-POV phrase is needed. Also, If you'd done your homework, you wouldn't be accusing me of being an SPA. Is it a crime to focus? Mr. Kent (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• First, you weren't being specific, which is why I asked you to clarify. Second, you've already came to my talk page, bitching and whining about the SPA thing. If you paid attention and did your homework, you'll see that I haven't mentioned it since then. But you are still complaining about it. Give it a rest already. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Sir, you truly lack courtesy, in the strongest possible sense. No one is here to be insulted, and you need to choose your words much more carefully. Mr. Kent (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

• You call it whatever you want. You complained about me using that term and I haven't since then. But you are STILL bringing it up, saying things like "if I'd done my homework" etc. Do you really want to open the whole SPA thing again? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:42, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Niteshift, that wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Soxwon. Mr. Kent (talk) 04:33, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

• Ok. Since it was directly under me and didn't specify different, it looked like it was a response to me. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)