Talk:Stormfront (website)

NPOV tag

I removed it, since the dispute seems to be not with Wikipedia but with the real-world consensus re Stormfront which we merely document. Guy (Help!) 14:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, obviously. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

And I have readded it. There is an ongoing dispute and tags should not be removed until it is resolved. Since neither of us is convincing the other, we could try an RfC or something along those lines.Cptnono (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it again. There is no "on-going dispute", since you have produced no reliable secondary sources to support your position. An editor cannot tag an article simply because they dislike it; rather, they must actually produce sources backing up the addition of the tag. Feel free to start an RFC, but the tag will stay out until such time as you provide reliable secondary sources, or an RFC supports your position. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Why are you edit warring over a tag? Like I said, we can chose to do an RfC, see a noticeboard, or other options. Edit warring over a tag does not improve the article and is bad form.Cptnono (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

What an odd question. Your tagging has been removed by three different editors,[1][2][3] and restored only by you. It is you who have been edit-warring over this tag, so you need to apply your advice to yourself. Start the RFC or noticeboard thread about your personal concerns, since your defacing the article with this unwarranted tag will clearly not improve it in any way. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

And all three are wrong in doing so. But how about I find diffs for every IP that has tried to remove the violating label? IPs are not only vandals, and you as an admin should know that and also not facilitate or participate in an edit war. So you mentioned sources. Keep in mind that we are allowed to use primary sources with caution. The website clearly states that it is white nationalist. And secondary sources can even be found. Just a quick search found one where the operator states (maybe incorrectly) that he is not a racist.[4] I can keep on going easily enough with google archive searches but I assume we are not playing a game and editors here are aware that it is disputed. I do not believe the organizer for a second but it doesn't mean that we can ignore WP:LABEL simply because their views are frowned upon by most of society. So please, provide reasoning for edit warring over a tag when it is clear that the label is contentious and disputed. I totally agree that we need to make it clear as day in the lead that the website is often called racist (BLP standards do not apply here so I will state that I full on believe it is a racist website) but it is not OK to apply demeaning labels if they are disputed. You have also failed to address why any label but "white nationalist" is needed in the first line. Why can't it be simply worded in a NPOV manner in the second sentence that they are called neo-nazis and racists? The bulk of secondary sources make it clear that they are white nationalist/supremacist while only some sources use other labels. Cptnono (talk) 06:47, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

How many of those IPs know anything about policy? And, as shown, it is you who are edit-warring, no-one else. Also, as has been explained before, this article complies fully with WP:LABEL. And finally, also as explained before, repeating yourself won't help or change anything; the only thing that will have any impact at all is reliable secondary sources that support your viewpoint. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I did, for one. Not every anonymous editor is a vandal... I found some fun stats on here. Mr. Kent (talk) 00:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

You did what? Not every anonymous editor is a vandal, but few of them understand policy. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

My viewpoint? You mean that the site is without any doubt "nationalist" and is often called "neo-nazi"? That one? It looks like you and those arguing for the label have a viewpoint (that it is a neo-nazi site). I don't believe I have said that it is not. I have simply said that ti is a contentious label that is not the most often used.Cptnono (talk) 04:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)Cptnono (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

As explained before, repeating yourself won't help or change anything; the only thing that will have any impact at all is reliable secondary sources that support your viewpoint. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:27, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

"As explained before, repeating yourself won't help or change anything . . ." If only Jayjg would listen to his/her self, this article might stand some chance of coming into compliance with the NPOV standard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.197.72 (talk) 18:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• It's not just him. There is no NPOV problem for most if us. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, and has no place in an encyclopedia, outside of an article describing its nature. The NPOV, as well as other aspects of this article are indeed in dispute, and no amount of "popular opinion" among the various editors is going to change that unless and until a unanimous consensus can be reached upon these matters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.197.72 (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not how consensus is defined on Wikipedia. Stormfront denizens will always disagree with the generally accepted and highly negative opinion of their website; however, it is the generally accepted and highly negative opinion that is also the uniform opinion of our reliable sources, and the consensus of editors involved with this article is that the article indeed presents a neutral point of view. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 20:05, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus has been achieved, if you, 24.x, have sources to prove otherwise, please post them. No sources: no new consensus: no need for the tags. Jarkeld (talk) 22:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Unanimous? Thanks for that chuckle. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Apparently, many of you fail to grasp (or intentionally ignore) the true meaning of words. Regardless of any "consensus" that might be reached in any controversy on any subject, as long as there is disagreement, there remains a "dispute". There is nothing funny about that. It is simply a fact. To ignore that fact, by any means, is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty. The trouble with this encyclopedia is that it has been infected by a resident group of editors who clearly have an agenda, and those same editors are improperly removing properly placed tags at the head of this article intended to draw attention to the very controversies over NPOV here discussed in its regard. The fact that this is happening is a disgrace, and leaves a serious stain upon the very credibility of the encyclopedia as a whole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.197.72 (talk) 01:18, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

  Of course there remains a dispute. You can use this talk page to attempt to gain consensus for your position; what you cannot do is repeatedly put tags on the article against consensus. Dealing with extreme minority positions (such as "Stormfront is anything other than a neo-nazi hate site") are dealt with in WP:FRINGE. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:43, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

None of our policies or guidelines say that one editor can keep an article tagged against consensus. This should be blatantly obvious, as if that were possible the most far out adherent to any weird idea could keep an article tagged saying there was a dispute holding an article hostage. That's not what the templates are designed to do. And you are edit-warring, you were warned about 3RR. Dougweller (talk) 02:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

• If is your grasp on more than just the meaning of words that I doubt Mr. Iwontgetanaccount. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

• I love people talking about policies when policy is ignored still. You will keep on getting anons complaining since there is a massive breach of NPOV. Sucks we do not know which ones are repeat commenters but you can do a whois if you want. I wish the anons would actually sign in since it is obvious that IPs do not count as people and it is hard to assume they aren't socking trolls. But I have come to the conclusion that since we can say whatever we want about pedophiles then we can say whatever we want about racists. No one wants to admit to trying to be neutral when the subject is so distasteful. It is the way Wikipedia is. Filibustering, ignoring policies, edit warring, and choosing to ignore time tested and easy solutions will keep this article and many others about racists below par. But it isn't just this article so don;t take it too badly. Cptnono (talk) 04:55, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

• Policies aren't being ignored. When multiple reliable third party sources call Stormfront things like "white supremist", then guess what...putting that in here isn't a neutrality problem. If this was just a case of a single, activist group saying it, that would be one thing, but that's not the case here. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

• Policies are absolutely being ignored. The fact that gaggle of like-minded editors with an obvious agenda have worked together as a team in order to deny the obvious anti-white bias in this article and elsewhere does not negate the demostable fact that this article violates NPOV guidelines in several ways. This bias is also reflected when various registered editors, some of whom may even be sock puppets display obvious arrogant attitudes towards IP editors such as myself, who raise valid concerns, but are treated as if they are lower life forms. Dr. David Duke, who figures prominently in this very article, even has another, quite relevant article posted on his own website titled, "Israelis Plot to Infiltrate Wikipedia" which probably sheds much more light upon the true situation here than many of these registered editors would care to admit. As I've noted before, it's simply 'disgraceful", but in this particular case, it clearly borders upon intentional racism. 24.254.197.72 (talk) 00:11, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Semi-Protection

Maybe we should get the page Semi-Protected Status? It seems like unregistered users are making reversions/additions in opposition of consensus.DriftingLeaf (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Probably not necessary for now. It seems to have stopped when the disruptive IP was blocked. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:27, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Founding myth?

>credits its mission to the founding myth of an America >myth

I'm no nazi, but it is a fact that George Washington signed into law a bill that allowed only whites to become citizens for more than a hundred years.76.78.246.59 (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)notanazi

Not clear what you mean. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)