Talk:Tyler, the Creator

Bio Information

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.89.91 (talk) 03:41, 6 April 2011 (UTC) 

As stated by the template, this is a BLP. As such, we should be extremely careful about adding information that's not backed up by a reliable source or is original research. This page has been a target for vandalism so far but there have also been subtle additions like the Grand Prairie Texas High School thing that stayed in the article for several days despite not being supported by sources. 71.62.188.38 (talk) 00:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC) I'm just wondering why we don't have a redirect from "Tyler Okonma". I mean if someone searches for Robert Allen Zimmerman, the Bob Dylan page pops up, so why doesn't searching Tyler Okonma bring up Tyler, the Creator? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.230.7 (talk) 02:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The Roots -- a related act?

One user continually adds "The Roots" as a related act. Yes, I know that two or three members of "The Roots" played backup for Tyler and Hodgy Beats on their Jimmy Fallon show appearance but that doesn't really make them a related act. That's like saying Guns N'Roses is a related group to the Black Eyed Peas because Slash played with them in the Super Bowl Halftime show. Please try to engage in discussion on this issue rather than force in unsourced assertions. 71.62.188.38 (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)I've now registered an account, but I am 71.62.188.38. Chillllls (talk) 22:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Whoever keeps adding The Roots as an associated act please stop. Vette92 (talk) 03:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Real name

Anyone know what Tyler's real name is? that'd be nice to see on the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.217.182.46 (talk) 22:41, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Now we seem to have Tyler's legal name on the page (and the same has been added for Earl Sweatshirt) but there are no sources for the addition and a Google search doesn't really turn up anything. Can someone provide a verifiable source for this? Chillllls (talk) 21:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9371/32825294.jpg Tyler and Earl are brothers so they have the same last name. L Trey (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

An Imageshack image of a high school yearbook that shows someone who may or may not be Tyler the Creator is so far from WP:RS that it is laughable. Please read Wikipedia policies regarding reliable sources and verifiability. Chillllls (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Then we should wait until Tyler becomes famous. Some reliable source will write his bio. But in the interviews, Tyler many times said he has an African surname. L Trey (talk) 15:07, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

What interviews? Where? Please provide some evidence to back up your statements. Chillllls (talk) 16:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.piquemag.com/?p=110 L Trey (talk) 17:16, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Notice how he doesn't say his last name, he just says that it's "African." This doesn't meet the threshold for verifiability. Chillllls (talk) 17:36, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5Alud0G6s L Trey (talk) 06:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Comma

Is the correct styling 'Tyler the Creator', or 'Tyler, The Creator'? Both are used in the article, surely one should be chosen and stuck to. 94.192.45.239 (talk) 21:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

In terms of style, I think "Tyler, the Creator" is correct. I believe that the page is listed as "Tyler the Creator" because of the personal preference of the wiki editor who created the page. Chillllls (talk) 04:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, he always writes it as "Tyler, the Creator", the title of the page should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.151.130.71 (talk) 08:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Censorship

The "feuds" section doesn't seem like it's particularly necessary, but if it is, b.o.b.'s lyrics ought not to be dashed out as they are. According to wikipedia:offensive material, "... a vulgarity or obscenity should either appear in its full form or not at all; words should never be bowdlerized by replacing letters with dashes, asterisks, or other symbols." I tried to change it but the change was blocked by a filter. Someone else ought to take care of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.8.190.110 (talk) 08:05, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Tyler's real birth date

Alright, does anybody who knows Tyler in real life have any details on his actual birth date? No real name is fine, but considering how many people are likely to reference this page, being sure that we have accurate biographical data seems important.

My best guess is May 6, 1991 based on his Twitter posts (although he once stated March 6, 1991 and apparently also mentioned being 20 years old in a recent interview). It's worth mentioning that he openly states that he enjoys lying in interviews about his name/age/etc -- funny, but doesn't help us make this page... --24.13.224.40 (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Other biographical details

Tyler prominently reps his atheism, which starkly contrasts with most rappers out there. His history of self-injurious behavior also seems worth mentioning, especially given that it is an increasingly common problem in his generation. Anyone more familiar with him have good sources on these? --24.13.224.40 (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Atheism: [1] ; SIB: [2] --24.13.224.40 (talk) 18:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither of these issues seem particularly tied to his notability: he is a famous rapper who is also an athiest, not a rapper who is famous for his atheism (ditto for the injurious behavior). When reliable secondary sources discuss his atheism or self-injurious behavior in the context of his music or other notable activity, then it can be discussed in the article. Chillllls (talk) 15:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

A section of criticism based on one account of homophobia on his twitter account criticized only by 3 random bloggers? This obviously is a worthless section. Lil Wayne does the same but it isn't on his page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.50.113 (talk) 05:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The Guardian is not a "random blogger"--it is a newspaper with the second largest online readership of any English-language newspaper in the world. Neither is The Wall Street Journal. And neither is the other source cited--Tyler's own Twitter page.

Noting what is or is not included in another article is not within Wikipedia's guidelines for what it worthy of inclusion in an article.

The criticism included in this Wikipedia article represents a pattern of criticism from major professional critics and newspapers (as the included references indicate). Jtropp1 (talk) 23:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The Criticism section wasn't particularly neutral and had some poor sources in it, but given the amount of attention he has had for this issue it belongs in the article. I've tried to make it more balanced and added sources. If anyone has any issues with it feel free to discuss it here. If anyone removes this they'd better have a good explanation.--Michig (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Michig -- the addition of Tyler's response to the criticism (as cited) does add balance to the article, and that the artist saw need to respond to such significant criticism as has been levied in major newspapers, reinforces the importance of the Criticism section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtropp1 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Personal blogs are certainly not acceptable sources to use here to back up negative claims about a living person. Only the man himself can really know whether his use of these terms is out of a prejudice against homosexuals or just derogatory use in general (both 'gay' and 'faggot' have negative meanings beyond being references to homosexuals) albeit use that is likely to be construed by some as homophobic. If you want to add more than what's there now, please acquaint yourself with WP:RS and make sure you cite acceptable reliable sources.--Michig (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The only "personal blog" used as a reference (http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/) has been recognized for awards by GLAAD, The Village Voice, and the Weblog Awards (Bloggies). At a certain point a "mere" blog qualifies as a legitimate source. However, as the Wall Street Journal and The Guardian suffice as references for the relevant point, and as (per WP:SPS) self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer, you are correct that this site should not be used as a reference here.

You are correct that, as they are currently used in the vernacular, "gay" or "faggot" when used as insults may be intended to be generally derogatory and not specifically meant to demean homosexuals--just as one doesn't necessarily intend to demean Jews as greedy or Romani as dishonest when saying, "He jewed me down" or "He gypped me." Context matters. But within the context of the lyrics of Tyler's songs, for example (from "Assmilk"):

"I hate gays, gangbangers and fucking jerkers

Unless it's gay gangbangers that's fucking jerkers

Whoa yo, yo, no homo, I'm not gay, faggot,"

the string of synonyms makes it clear that Tyler is referring to men who have sex with men, and that he means "gay," "homo," and "faggot" as epithets directed specifically at homosexuals. (Note he does not say, e.g., "I hate gays, assholes, douchebags," as if "gay" or "faggot" were interchangeable with other generic insults.) To suggest that it requires a biased POV to see "I hate gays...no homo, I'm not gay, faggot" (esp. when spoken by a heterosexual person) as homophobic is like suggesting it requires a biased POV to see "I hate Blacks...no Afro-American, I'm not Black, nigger" as racist (esp. when spoken by a white person). Jtropp1 (talk) 21:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Twitter and copyright-violating lyric sites are also not good sources to use.--Michig (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

You're right about not citing (arguably) copyright-violating lyrics sites; I should have cited the song directly.

As for using Twitter: Since the controversy over Tyler's language is in part explicitly as reaction to his postings on Twitter, directly citing his page seems appropriate. The referenced Twitter page (https://twitter.com/#!/fucktyler) is confirmed by reliable sources as Tyler's (e.g., by MTV at http://rapfix.mtv.com/2011/05/10/tyler-the-creator-detained-not-arrested/). The guidelines at WP:SELFPUB suggest that using a confirmed Twitter account as the reference for a quote from the creator of that account is appropriate (though of course other sources should be used for an article as well).

I do appreciate your working to keep this and other articles up to Wikipedia's encyclopedic standards, and recognize the importance of erring on the side of omission over unverifiable, potentially libelous language. Jtropp1 (talk) 21:47, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Anything based on his lyrics needs to cite a reliable source stating what his lyrics are. I'm not saying you're wrong in your analysis, but it's important that any sources cited are suitable. If a reliable source can be found that has cited those lyrics and reached a conclusion based on them, it would be much better to cite that rather than reaching conclusions yourself. --Michig (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I hear you. At this point, I think the relevant, significant information on homophobia-related criticism of Tyler is fine for encyclopedic purposes as of your 18:35, 14 May 2011 edit. Jtropp1 (talk) 22:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, this is a serious violation of WP:UNDUE. There are only very fleeting references to perceived homophobia in the articles cited, except for the blog post (and I'm not convinced by your argument that the blog is a WP:RS simply because it won a blog award from GLAAD). Could you explain why you, Jtropp1, think it deserves its own section? Chillllls (talk) 03:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, I was looking at an old revision of the page where the blog was still being used as a source. I still have some issues with this section, however. Why is the only criticism being leveled at homophobia in his lyrics? The Guardian article, although it mentions homophobia in the title, equally addresses homophobia, misogyny and violence in his lyrics. I think that the reason you were accused above of POV editing is that the only criticism you (Jtropp1) are adding to the article is criticism of homophobia, when most sources offer much more criticism of the violence and misogyny in his lyrics. If anything, I believe the criticism section of this article should be expanded by a sentence or two to more accurately reflect the criticism in sources. Does that sound ok to you? Chillllls (talk) 03:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

Tyler, the Creator → Tyler, The Creator – All his albums and mixtapes are labelled as such. It is his official stage name. The redirect page and article page should be swapped around. The capital "T" in the word "The" is intentional and should be used in the title. The correct style of his name is shown on his record labels website here and on his itunes page here Kidstylez (talk) 16:49, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I strongly recommend that all parties cease edit warring over this issue and start discussing it here to achieve consensus, unless you want get blocked.--Michig (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

How is there any debate over this? His stage name is whatever his stage name is. Either it does or doesn't have a capital "The". In this case, any evidence I'm seeing directly from the source (that is, CDs, his Twitter page, etc.) has it as a capital "The". What's the other side's argument? 69.123.136.21 (talk) 13:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)ThatGuamGuy