Talk:Van, Turkey

Move history

Move: Van (turkey) → Van, Turkey

common use for cities

• Support Tobias Conradi 23:08, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support Warofdreams 16:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. This was an old (2002) copy/paste move so the histories have been merged. violet/riga (t) 17:23, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tushpa

It says that Tushpa is its Kurdish name. Is is Zazaci or what?? Bertilvidet 21:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Monster of Lake Van

I just googled this silliness -- and was amazed to find it (not that I believe). --Moby 11:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The whole "Van, Turkey" entry is so full of silliness that I am surprised that you were surprised. Meowy 18:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW - the statue may be as real as the actual monster. I've been to Van on many occasions and have never seen such a statue! There is a statue of the monster in Gevas though. Meowy 01:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed that photograph from the entry. As I said, I've been to Van on dozens of occasions and have never seen such a statue there. The photo remains on the entry about the monster. Meowy 21:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I lıved ın Van for 2 and a half years and didn't see that statue. 99.236.250.221 (talk) 01:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Tatvan, Mersovan, and Erivan

Awhile back a user added this to the Van (disambiguation) page, and I couldn't help but wonder, do all these cities (Van, Mersovan, and Yerevan—come from the same word? None of these articles except Merzifon discuss the etymology of the word at all, and it would be interesting to know if the words are related. —Khoikhoi 05:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

loaed weasel words, pov, missing syntax, unveriable information

The city's Armenian population was devastated (what is devastated, killed?) during World War I by Ottoman troops as a part of the Armenian Genocide <--- there are sources that says Van rebelled, and I provided them, and it was deleted, it even syas below Van reblled and the rmenians were taking sides with Russians). According to Turkish accounts (according to Turkish but not according to Armenian accounts?), with Russian forces (and Armenian volunteer untis, you forgot that) approaching Lake Van, the regional administrator ordered the execution of five Armenian leaders (of whom were rebel leaders, right?) and a revolt resulted in Van on April 20, 1915 against the Turks (and the Turks were killed were thjey not?) and in favor of the Russians (this sentence negates the above claim that says this was all becuase of AG and not any other reason). However, most historians agree (which historians, where, how many, what country) that the Armenians, hoping to avoid slaughter, fled to the mountains of Van to defend themselves against the Turks (if they fled then they obviously weren't killed, so how can they be devasted?). The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres (why were they so sure they were going to be massacred, becasue they rebelled?). The Russians finally captured Van in late May of 1915 (anfd killed al the Turks, right?)

So this whole thing is gone. See my version which is sourced and unbiased. --Oguz1 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The Armenian name and sourced info on Kurdish majority were deleted by an anon. I readded. Andranikpasha 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Van and WWI

This part (like many other parts) needs to be cleaned up of heavy and one sided propaganda. The actual events of WWI in and around Van was obfuscated by ethnic propaganda imbedded. I tried but it is not complete. Porbably needs to be organized better and re-written, since it is an important and significant part of Van history. Added some fresh references also.--Murat (talk) 16:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-referenced POV analyis will be removed. Let's stay with facts not subjective analysis. Do NOT remove referenced paragraphs and references.

Rebellion at Van started BEFORE the officially accepted date of the alleged genocide, April 24th of 1915, so trying to tie this insurrection to a genocide that even according to Armenian sources that had not been put in effect is ludicrous. Let's respect facts and dates. Overzealous propaganda has its limits even on these pages. Van rebellion was in fact the primary reason for the Ottoman government to take very strong action against a large portion of its Armenian population. These are important historical points.

Muslim population in Van suffered terribly in the hands of Armenians insurgents, even according to the anti-Turkish and anti-Muslim Christian missionaries who had taken up Armenian causes and who were there at the time to observe all this. Is that being disputed here? Read the references. If there is any more knowledge or reference about the status of the Muslim population of Van during the Armenian rebellion, please, share.--Murat (talk) 17:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a photo of 10 Armenian intellectuals who were assassinated on April 24th, 1915, which I downloaded several years ago from an earlier version of this entry. I would like to see it up again. http://sites.google.com/site/grantminnaswebsite/Home/April24Victims.jpgIzmirlig (talk) 18:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

FYI, I'll be going to dig up the New York times articles related to Van at my local university library some time next week so I can add the proper references, but I'm sure that the massacres of Armenians in the area around Van started before April 20th, and before rebellion in Van, as reported by the New York Times, and were perpetrated by Kurdish tribes. Of course I'm weary of news reports during this period as there were clear efforts made to draw the Americans into the war. While I'm at it I'll do my best to find some sources about how the Muslim population suffered under the Armenians, because in that area there were definitely reciprocal massacres. Grant bud (talk) 02:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Famous people

What, no famous turkish or kurdish people from Van? 87.113.119.89 (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Kapamacian readded by an IP, is surely not a notable pertson. We even untill now have not any reliable sources on him. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I reverted some propagandist material. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Hudavendigar, you have been reverted at least twice. I think it is time for you to start discussing your changes. VartanM (talk) 18:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You can start participate in discussion, by going over the discussion I had put above. That is how it is discussed instead of crude reverts. Discuss, by all means. Above all, is it being DENIED (note the irony!) that Muslims of Van suffered terribly? Something about this key fact is bothering someone?--Murat (talk) 22:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please show some reliable and third party sources for "Muslims of Van suffered terribly".--HyeTashnak (talk) 13:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"It was necessary to despoil and destroy all Turkish quarters so they could not nurture any hopes of returning" Mukhtarian, An Account, p.117.

"The Armenians seem perfectly debauched-plundering and revenge the only thought of the day and we may as well talk to the wall.... I think too the thought of Armenians is to make this a purely Armenian province", The American missionaries Mrs. G.C.Reynolds and Clarence Ussher, Eastern Turkey Mission, Woman's Board, Vol.1, Documents and Reports. Keep in mind these were very pro-Armenian folks. "The men they put to death, women and children they spared" says Ussher in a rare moment of objectivity. They mean the women and children who were able to escape to the Missionary compounds.

The first large scale massacres of Muslim civilians took place when the Russians invaded the Dir-Baskale and Saray regions at the beginning of the war. See Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens, pp41-42; Rustem, LaGuerr Mondiale, pp.11-13,31,97-98; Ermeniler Belgeleri, pp7, 10-11. There are of course countless Turkish documents, internal communications to the Ministeries, police and civil servants reporting various Armenian attrocities, names and details, even in some cases the names of the Armenian murderers. Many of them were their neighbors. Check http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/.

What do you think happened to the Muslims of Van and environs when the insurgents took over? Denial is a terible thing, one should know one's history and learn from it.--Murat (talk) 02:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Denial is a terible thing, one should know one's history and learn from it -

Perhaps you should try acting on your own advice rather than hypocritically giving it out to others. Meowy 18:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Soo... what happened to the non-Armenians of Van during WWI? Denial and more denial...--Murat (talk) 22:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Why was Ferit Melen removed from the famous people list? He was from Van.--Murat (talk) 22:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not get these so-called famous people whom we have never heard of and then they are labled as Armenian, or Russian, or American-Armenian, or French etc.. Where is Van? Where is Ottoman? This is an article about Van, no? If they were born in Van, or from Van, does not that make them Turkish-Armenian, or Ottoman-Armenian, or Ottoman at least? If not, why are they listed here? Unless this is fixed by someone who knows the difference, these bogus lists will be removed. There are plenty other places to spread propaganda.--Murat (talk) 12:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If they were born in Van, or spent much of their adult lives there, then they were from Van. Meowy 02:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Then they were Turkish-Armenian, Ottoman, Ottoman-Armenian, or Turkish. Yes, it would help if they were at all famous.--Murat (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

And which are you saying aren't famous? Of course some names, such as Arshile Gorky and Mkrtich Khrimian, stand head and shoulders above all the others in terms of the extent of their fame. Meowy 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Some exist mostly in other wiki pov inserts only. I guess it is ok, an emotional issue I realize. More significantly, why deny or ignore the fact that the were born Ottoman citizens, in Ottoman Turkey or Turkey and carried Ottoman passaports when they moved to their next country? How come Vankulu Efendi is just that, and Ruhi Su is "Turkish", and another is Russian-Armenian, and another Armenian? How come none is Ottoman or Turkish-Armenian? What is the criteria? It looks like other motives are in play.--Murat (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be a guide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Famous_Residents - however lots of Wikipedia articles seem to ignore it, so it would be difficult to use it alone as a basis to exclude a name. That said, I do agree that as a category within entries, the "Famous people" one is often overfilled. Meowy 16:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement vs Fact

I would like to see some more supporting material for the outrageous statement : "However, most historians agree that the Armenian residents, hoping to avoid the slaughter inflicted on the rural population of Van, defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks[6]." Who are these "most" historians? Where is the specific reference to Van in the attached reference, which seems to be a generic and blanket add-on to any article involving Armenians? What exactly were they defending against since this Ottoman city was not under an attack by Ottomans? This was an armed revolt, supported by Russians and instigated by their tools, Armenians revolutionaries, even though there were many Armenians in Van who did not want to side with Russians who were invading their country (who were assasinated by Armenians eventually) and that is what history, not most, but all historians, record. Seems to be a vague POV opinion, a personal analysis, rather than a basic fact. It should be removed or corrected, or I will.--Murat (talk) 23:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Replacing the existing badly written material with your material that is full of marginal POV views is not an improvement. Meowy 18:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree with Murat on this one. "The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide" is certainly not a valid reference for an encylopedia article. In five minutes I can come up with a dozen "scholarly" propaganda articles, books and texts that state the very contrary. Please put in some valid resources and arguments. The phrasing "Most historians" is terrible and "banal". --Diren Yardimli (talk) 07:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Disputed Objectivity

"resulting in an uprising in Van on April 20, 1915, against the Turks and in favor of the Russians. However, most historians agree that the Armenian residents, hoping to avoid the slaughter inflicted on the rural populations surrounding Van, defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks[7]. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres. The Russians finally relieved the Armenian defenders of Van in late May 1915"

- Most Hisorians do NOT agree with the above. References added to the contrary, McCarthy and Feigl have been removed repeatedly. - Armenian rebellion(s) came first, then the Government attempt to quell by force. The article creates the opposite impression. - Throughout this article references are made to "self-defense" and such fake-named articles in an obvious attempt to hide the simple fact this was a very violent armed rebellion. - This was a rebellion as decribed above: "defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks". Fighting against their very own state and army. - Violence against Armenians who did not share the bloody vision of the "Revolutionaries" were treated worse than the Turks. Any attmpt at presnting this fact has also been snuffed by POV editors. - Russians did not "relieve" Armenians, they invaded a Turkish city helped by the Armenian insurgents. - Even the "official" Armenian propaganda puts the start of the so-called genocide AFTER the rebellion at Van. Events here precipitated even harsher measures by the Government later. Any attempt to put this in perspective have been rudely removed. The article contradict this simpe fact by referring an Armenian Rebellion as Genocide. - There is NO mention of the majority Turkish population of the city AND the province. One would not know that this is an ancient Turkish city. Massacres of the Muslims in the area have been left out and any any reference to this fact has been removed repeatedly. - The whole article seems to be about Armenians and their sufferings. The fact that this is an old Turkish city and its non-Armenian culture, people and history has been systematically cleansed off the article. - This article, like many others, reperesents the worst of ethnic propaganda on Wikipedia. It is uninformative and apallingly biased.--Murat (talk) 18:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I am removing the POV tag. Hudavendigar has had almost 2 months to produce material to back up his allegations of bias, or to add aditional valid material into the article. He has not done any of that. I suggest that he has not because the material and the bias does not exist; a POV tag cannot remain in an article forever, and Hudavendigar's above comments are just POV warring, indicated by his use of phrases like "so-called genocide". Meowy 21:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

McCarthy is not a reliable source. Lida Vorig (talk) 04:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Who says? He is actually one of the few reliable sources and an expert on WWI history of Van. Of course you knew that and that is what the problem is.--Murat (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I see that Hudavendigar, returning from a 6-month absense, has reinserted the pov tag. I have removed it for exactly the same reasons as I gave on my 2nd Feb 2009 post. Meowy 14:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Your reasons make sense to you only. Until there is a concesus and the points I made above are satisfied, and there is no need for these discussions right here, the tag will remain there.--Murat (talk) 15:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

You can't just do drive-by POV tagging of an entire article! You have given no valid points to indicate why you think the entire article is POV, or even why parts of the article are POV. All I see is your 6Dec post is a POV diatribe that could have come from a card carrying MHP fanatic. Meowy 17:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems that all you are intent on doing is inserting propaganda into Wikipedia articles. Your Turkish nationalist propaganda sources have no place in any encyclopedia. Meowy 17:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Some specfics on Murat's propaganda. His lies include "First Western visitors to the area were witnesses to the total destruction of the Muslim sections of the city after the Armenian retreat, and as Niles and Sutherland of USA observed: "Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed". The web page cited for this "Niles and Sutherland report" does not exist. Either it has disapeared in the couple of hours between Murat posting it and me checking it (unlikely), or (more likely) it did not exist when he inserted it and he actually lifted that content straight from a Turkish propaganda website. Content from this "report" (which is actually a tawdry pack of lies) has come up before on the Bitlis article, when Murat tried to use it to insert inaccurate content into the article. At the time I wrote "regarding Bitlis, the claim that every Muslim house was destroyed is so moronic that that statement alone should damn the entire report. Bitlis is full of old Muslim buildings to this day, and has thousands of intact pre-WW1 Muslim houses (I guess that might be why you wanted the section on the architecture curtailed - it disagrees with the lies in that report)". Murat has shown some audacity by citing a propaganda website produced by the Turkish government to deny the Armenian Genocide for his claim that "this was the most organized one of a series of Armenian revolts in the area, wich also took place while the Ottomans had engaged Great Powers at multiple fronts, it was a key factor in the government's decision to forcibly remove the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia"! Actually the "deportations" (i.e. masssacres) had started a week earlier and it was those massacres which had prompted the Armenian population of Van to rise up in self-defense. Murat's obscene misuse of the word "revolt" to characterise that self-defense is just another indication of this editor's aim of writing propaganda and of duplicating material found on the most rabid Armenian Genocide denialist websites. And as for his final claim "Modern Van had to be rebuilt from start some distance away from the scene of this destruction". This is his own OR, and shows his complete ignorance of the subject. Modern Van was refounded as a city in the 1930s and was actually laid out on the district of old Van called the "Garden City" (called that because many of the houses there had tree-lined back gardens). The main streets of that district's urban centre actually correspond to the main roads that still exist in the town centre of modern Van. Meowy 01:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

"your 6Dec post is a POV diatribe that could have come from a card carrying MHP fanatic"..."Your Turkish nationalist propaganda sources"... "straight from a Turkish propaganda website"..."Murat's obscene misuse of the word "revolt""...

Only one person sounds like a fanatic here, Van, not Bitlis. You need to stop foaming at the mouth and limit the discussion to facts here. Removing all that you do not imporve is not a way to defend facts, one does that only to protect propaganda. The very fact that we are having this so-called discussion here is the reason the tag is there in the first place. --Murat (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

What does "tat" mean?

maybe you dont know but, there is another city called TATVAN that located opposite side of lake van. does anyone know "TAT" means opposite or against in any language? maybe urartu language?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.237.249 (talk) 21:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The older name of Tatvan is Tadvan. So if its name means anything, it would the word "tad" we should be asking about. Meowy 02:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Population

I added some notes about the recent population. No one believes the official statistic in this case, as per the sources mentioned, but this could partially be because of seasonal migration as well. Additionally I added a part about demographics in the Ottoman Empire and moved some stuff from the "genocide" section into there, to contextualize the issues when dealing with population statistics in that area and provide a NPOV which lets the reader decide for him/herself. Grant bud (talk) 03:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

In Van I met a man who took part in the census gathering, and he told be that he thought the population was at least 700,000. He said that the local population was very reluctant to reveal actual family sizes, a lot of the data written down by the census gatherers was just guesswork, and that many men in Van had several wives and those unofficial wives and their children were not recorded on the census. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.143.19 (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Why Armenian alphabet?

For example, Gaza was a part of the Ottoman Empire, where is the Turkish name of it ("Gazze") on Gaza article? Böri (talk) 13:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Gaza never had a large Turkish population. Van was 50% Armenian (40-60%, depending on the sources) in 1915, and was the first capital of the Armenian Empire, occupying a major force in Armenian history. Grant bud (talk) 23:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Because Gaza is an Arab city, occupied by the Turks, and Van - Armenian city also occupied by the Turks, who massacred the entire Armenian population during Armenian Genocide

Remove photo of naked man

Someone has corrupted this article by inserting a picture of a naked man. It needs to be removed.

86.135.162.54 (talk) 16:37, 21 May 2011 (UTC) 21/05/2011. P. Growns

Less propaganda, more facts

"According to Taner Akçam(!), citing Osmali Belgelerinde Ermeniler 1915-1920, after the Turks took back the city from the Russians they killed all Armenians in the city..." I suppose no need to question the credentials of this esteemed researcher who is known for his "objective" analysis of the topic! Analysis is all he can do since he does not access a lot of original material. In any case, what is strange about this statement is that there is no real reference, I mean what did the Ottoman documents say, that "they killed them all"? Even more strange is the fact that missionaries and diplomats who visited the area a short time later found a small population of Armenians in the cneter of the city, under the protection of the soldiers since the remaining and returning Muslim inhabitants were anxious for revenge.Murat (talk) 03:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Sister City

It's claimed to be Odessa on this page, but on Odessa's page, there is no reference to this at all. In fact, Odessa is said to be twinned with Istanbul. 86.9.227.102 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)