Talk:History of chess

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Talhand and Gav

Is there any place in this article for the apocryphal origin of chess as an explanation of the battle between Talhand and Gav over the kingdom of Hind referenced in the Shahnameh? It's a nice story and is referenced in the opening of the Broadway musical "Chess". It could be under a heading like "legendary origins". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.249.47.165 (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd say yes, that's a good idea. With some sources, a "Legendary origins" section would be a nice addition to the article. Quale (talk) 01:18, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, well, I saw that there was already a section in the Iranian section about the Shahnameh, so rather than create a new section I just added the bit about Talhand and Gav there.Knag (talk) 18:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Reverts on Chinese origin theory and lead section

I have reverted the edit by MountainPriest of oct 13 for the following reasons:

• That edit was in part a revert of my work on the china section in early history, in which I had neutralized the text and given an extra reference. Please give a good reason for that revert.
• The reference to Murray in the lead section was changed. The reference to Murray should be 1913, not 1985 (Murray died in 1955. The book A History Of Chess was republished in 1985, but was first published in 1913).
• I feel that the explanation about hasty-asva-nauka-padata does not merit mention in the lead section and should remain where it is (other material specific to the dynamics of chaturanga should go in the same section or should be on the Chaturanga page.)

HermanHiddema 08:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The statement about the origin of Chinese chess in India is flawed ("As a strategy board game played in China, chess is believed to have been derived from the Indian Chaturanga.[16]"). It uses the reference of Britannia Encyclopedia, which in fact just makes a simple statement without any reference or proof, a typical case of the blind leading the blind.

The conclusion of the origin of chess in India according Persian and Arabic accounts is also ambiguous. The methodology is simply flawed. You cannot draw a conclusion about the origin of Chess by reciting accounts. The Persian and Arab accounts only mean that they got to know the game from the Indians, no more, no less. However, this has nothing to do with the origin of the game! Let's use an analogy, there is no dispute about the origin of the game of Go, an ancient board game invented in China. However, the game was introduced first to the west by Japanese, as can be seen from its English name Go, a transliteration of the Japanese word for the game. So, following that flawed logic, can the rest of the world draw a conclusion that the game of Go originated in Japan, because the Europeans attribute the game to the Japanese (before they were told the real origin of the game)?

The origin of chess is better put in this way "Just as chess is a difficult game, its origin is a difficult puzzle. We may never know the truth of its birth." (http://chess.about.com/od/history/p/aa06a14.htm)

See WP:NOR. The mainstream academic opinion should be properly reflected in the article. Note that this is Wikipedia, an encyclopedia, and not a magazine or an article somewhere which can take sides or muse about alternate theories at large. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 09:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Neutral point of view policy. Without bias of significant views including that of the 'mainstream academic opinion' ChessCreator (talk) 16:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Havelock the Dane, "mainstream academic opinion", you make me laugh. "As a strategy board game played in China, chess is believed to have been derived from the Indian Chaturanga.[16]" is this your so-called "mainstream academic opinion"? I suppose the "mainstream academic opinion" about the origin of Chinese chess in the place where it is mostly played is quite different from this "mainstream academic opinion". Who defines which is the "mainsteam"?

No supposing! Do you have any sourced material to present? whoever you are?

Does anyone know Chinese academic opinion on this point? J S Ayer 03:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica defines the mainstream. It is an encyclopedia considered to be more scholarly than most others and it has not attached any weight age to such a claim.

The Sinologist Joseph Needham is there for the Chinese origins theory, as is David H. Li. We already have an objectionable amount of kilobytes dedicated to this theory as encyclopedias, like the EB, don't give it such massive weightage to it as has been given here.

Keeping sensational theories out of it and including only material of knowledge, as has been done in EB, should be our main concern while writing for this encyclopedia.

Havelock the Dane ^Talk 08:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Havelock, all that you say is true, but what I asked about is academic opinion in China. J S Ayer 02:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was talking to the user on the IP address who made contribs such as this.
Those comments were meant for him.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 12:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

In reply to J.S. Ayers question about chinese scholarship, I suggest reading Facts on the Origin of Chinese Chess by Peter Banaschak, which sets out 5 theories proposed by chinese scholars and discusses the evidence for and against them.
As a brief summary, Banaschak lists 5 theories, these are:

1. Origin in 28th century BC, proposed by a 14th century scholar
   • No evidence, probably an attempt to add status to the game by connecting it with a revered legendary emperor
2. Origin in 27th century BC, proposed by a 11th century scholar
   • No evidence, probably an attempt to add status to the game by connecting it with a revered legendary emperor
3. Origin in 12th century BC, proposed by a 16th sentury scholar
   • No evidence, probably a confusion between Zhou Wuwang (12th century BC) and Beizhou Wudi (6th century AD)
4. Origin in 3rd century BC, proposed by 16th century scholar
   • Earliest mention of XiangQi in literature is from this time, but the game is not described and XiangQi can also refer to other games
5. Origin in 6th century AD, proposed by 10th century scholar
   • There is significant evidence that a book called XiangJing about game called XiangXi was written at this time. This may have been a predecessor of XiangQi

Theory 5 (XiangXi) is also the basis of Joseph Needham's theory.
HermanHiddema 15:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced Edits

HermanHiddema, You made this edit on 12:39, 25 October 2007 with the edit summary "revert bad edit that removed properly sourced material"

I would like you to throw some light on the following questions:

1.) You claim that the lines "The oldest surviving remnant of ancient Chinese Liubo (or Liu po) dates to circa 1500 BC. Nevertheless, Liubo, though sometimes considered a battle game, was played with dice." constitute "properly sourced material."

Where are the sources for these lines in your revert ? If you don't have any sources for these lines then how is my removal of unsourced material a bad edit according to you ?

2.) You're using the German historian Peter Banaschak in the same lines as David Li, without mentioning what he has to say about Li's theories.

Do you not think that if you're mentioning Peter Banaschak in connection with David Li then it would be proper for you to mention this as well ?

As far as notability in an encyclopedia is concerned, Li made none I researched, and I still made sure he was represented in the article but representing Peter Banaschak in connection with Li will have to be done completely, not partially as has been done.

Of course then it would raise WP:UNDUE issues on why we're giving the Banaschak-Li connection such heavy place (in terms of kilobytes), so it's best to leave it only to what Li has to say, which again did not make any other encyclopedia of note.

3.) Why have you altered David Li's profession ? Why not let people know that he was an accountant who started writing books after he retired ?

Kindly refrain from making such colorful edit summaries,
With Regards,
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 20:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

• If we keep our cool, I think together we can make this article better. It has suffered from having a lot of unsourced and just generally bad claims, and both of you have helped clean them up. Personally I think Li is just wrong. If he was a professor of accounting then I would say his professorship grants absolutely no added status as a chess historian. Claims of Chinese origin of chess need to be discussed in this article, and Li's theory should be mentioned. Havelock, I like your recent work on this article and think it has really improved it. We should be able to work out language that would be acceptable. Quale 20:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I was in the middle of some re writing of my statement when your message came up. I have to ask one question:
What's so wrong with "An alternative theory contends that chess arose from Xiangqi or a predecessor thereof, existing in China since the 2nd century BC.[11] According to a hypothesis by retired accounting teacher David H. Li, general Han Xin drew on the earlier game of Liubo (or Liu po) to develop a Chinese form of chess in the winter of 204 BC–203 BC.[11]" ?[1]
It gives proper due, unnecessary due even, to Li's theories.

In my opinion, these lines are more than enough. The confusing Banaschak-Li connection added to already hefty mention will violate WP:UNDUE by adding unnecessary kilobytes to the section.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 20:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That seems very close to me, although maybe it would be better to not give Li any qualifications and simply let the reader click on David H. Li if they want to know more about him. Since Chinese origin of chess is a distinct minority view, a more detailed discussion of Li's theory probably belongs at his article rather than here anyway. Banaschak's views of Li's work should go there as well. We should see if anyone else has an opinion. User:HermanHiddema and User:J S Ayer may want to express their views. I have a reference or two to check that may pertain to this issue I will look up in a few hours. Quale 21:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Li's career as an accountant has been successful, he has worked with the World Bank Group it seems, and his qualifications should be mentioned since a reader must know who is making these claims. I agree that a more detailed discussion of Li's theory belongs in his article. I wanted to expand the article today but got caught in the whole Banaschak-Li thing. If only Herman Hiddema could have waited till a discussion before just reverting well thought out edits , I would be using my time to try and build the article.
Thanks for your efforts,
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your remarks, I plan to edit Europe in the near future. The European contributions on WP are almost always less informative than one would expect, I expect to try and cover it to the modern times, if possible. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 20:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This neutral description is good enough for the most part, but still retains "Literary sources indicate that xiàngqí may have been played as early as the 2nd century BC" by Peter Banaschak while the same man says "It remains a fact that the "Xuanguai lu ('Tales of the obscure and peculiar')" by the Tang Minister of State Niu Sengru (779-847) is the first real source on Chinese chess. Until now it has not been convincingly demonstrated that any text or archaeological find is of an earlier date." [2]
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 21:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The full text was "Literary sources indicate that xiàngqí may have been played as early as the 2nd century BC. Without extra-textual references from archaeology, it is unclear whether these sources refer to an early form of chess or to other games, such as Luibo". This is, I think a very reasonable summary of the source quoted. It very simply states the fact that such literary mention exists but is inconclusive without extra evidence. HermanHiddema 22:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Consider the following statements:

1) "Literary sources indicate that xiàngqí may have been played as early as the 2nd century BC. Without extra-textual references from archeology, it is unclear whether these sources refer to an early form of chess or to other games, such as Luibo"

2) "It remains a fact that the "Xuanguai lu ('Tales of the obscure and peculiar')" by the Tang Minister of State Niu Sengru (779-847) is the first real source on Chinese chess. Until now it has not been convincingly demonstrated that any text or archaeological find is of an earlier date."

Now, do you still think that Point 1 is a "reasonable summary" of Banaschak 's views ? Do the views not need to included in their entirety ? You did say that you were "aware of what Banaschak has to say about Li" ?

Havelock the Dane ^Talk 22:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I still think that point 1 is a reasonable summary of the source quoted. The line you quote is from a different article. In my opinion, the article Facts on the Origin of Chinese Chess is a better source than A Story Well Told is not Necessarily True. The first is a good neutral overview of several theories on the origin of XiangQi and what literary sources there are to support those claims. It researches the validity of these claims, and is quite honest in its evaluation that the evidence is inconclusive. The second is an article that deals specifically with a single work, that of Li, and is mainly aimed at discussing errors in Li's work. Regarding Banaschak's view, we might also quote his article Chess Historians and their Definitions of Chess, where he says The hypothesis of an Indian origin of chess games is the most widely propagated and best researched idea on the origin of chess, but it is still unproven. but that is starting to look like quote mining. I think Banaschaks Facts on the Origin of Chinese Chess is a very good article and is a very appropriate source for the section discussing a possible Chinese origin. I think the approriate way to include A Story Well Told is not Necessarily True is to state Li's theory and then add something like 'other chess historians are critical of the quality Li's work' and put the reference there. HermanHiddema 09:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

1.) The date of 1500 BC is referenced on the Liubo page, and could be repeated here, though I personally do not see any particular need for that. The bad edit part mainly refered to the fact that you removed the reference to Banaschak as being a dubious source.

2.) I am aware of what Banaschak has to say about Li. An earlier version of the article gave (IMO) undue attention to Li, and I edited the section by adding material from someone other than Li. My intention was not to make it seem that Banaschak supports Li, and I do not think the text gave that impression.

3.) Regarding the profession of Li, I feel the current edit by J S Ayer is neutral enough. I don't know why Li gets such attention anyway, why not refer to eg Joseph Needham?

HermanHiddema 21:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually,

1) The 1500 BC date has to be referenced here and not on the Liubo page. Kindly mention the source in a verifiable manner so that this can be taken care of.

2) Regardless of the intention, writing "Literary sources indicate that xiàngqí may have been played as early as the 2nd century BC" while not writing "It remains a fact that the "Xuanguai lu ('Tales of the obscure and peculiar')" by the Tang Minister of State Niu Sengru (779-847) is the first real source on Chinese chess. Until now it has not been convincingly demonstrated that any text or archaeological find is of an earlier date." does make it sound like "Banaschak supports Li," especially since you were "aware of what Banaschak has to say about Li."

3) The Profession has been dealt with well enough, his profession as an accountant can also be included.

Havelock the Dane ^Talk 22:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

1) The proper procedure in this case then would have been to add a 'citation needed' to the text, not to remove it.

2) See my earlier comment on the same subject.

HermanHiddema 22:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that particular edit has been unsourced since almost an year and there was no reason to keep an edit like that for another one just so someone might drop by and source it. In order to try and promote the article to a higher quality scale I'll have to further source the whole article and will do so once the Banaschak-Li discussion is over. Presently it reads "Category: Top-importance chess articles" along with "Category:B-Class chess articles," a very bad mix if you ask me.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 22:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Normally I would agree with HermanHiddema and say it's better to flag an uncited statement than to summarily remove it, but in this article I think removal of uncited claims is appropriate. This article has been plagued with so many junk edits that I would recommend that every claim be sourced before it is inserted. Also, I agree with Havelock that the previous wording falsely implied that Banaschak supports Li's views. That definitely needed to be fixed. Quale 00:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't much care for the date of 1500BC anyway. There is no dispute that Liubo is an earlier game than XiangQi, and those interested can find out how old it is on the [[Liu po|Liubo] page. As said before, the reason I reverted the edit was because it claimed Banaschak was a dubious source. Had the edit summary said something else, I probably would not have bothered. HermanHiddema 09:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The very reason I keep using <ref name=XYZ/> after every full stop even when a <ref name=XYZ>XYZ 19XX</ref> at the end ought to cover it is because I feel that we (the present set of editors) will leave WP in some time, and unless a footnote is placed next to every full stop (even in <ref name=XYZ/> format) some vandal will just insert POV of his choosing into the article and make it look like the footnote at the end covers simply everything. I will try and source every single line of this article so that every word is accounted for, and inserting unsourced material is made difficult. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 01:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

In these edits, I've added Banaschak's views on historic Chinese chess sources. The section looks good enough presently and I'll be moving towards sourcing the entire article and promoting it to a higher quality scale during my next round of edits,
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 23:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I think actually that Joseph Needham also needs a brief mention in the paragraph about theories of Chinese origin of chess, since his ideas (Science and Civilization in China (1962)) are probably better established than Li's are. (Looking at his wikipedia page I see it doesn't mention his theory on the Chinese origin of chess at all. Should probably fix that.) I think Needham is also wrong, but a very brief description of his ideas and how they are viewed by mainstream chess historians would be appropriate. I don't have a proposed edit yet, but this can be worked on later. If we think that the discussion of Chinese origin of chess gets too long or involved for this page (undue weight to a minority view), it might be possible to use summary style and investigate it in more depth on a separate page. Quale 00:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that we should mention Needham here as well simply because his works are more respectable than The Genealogy of Chess. I vaguely recall his works connecting Chinese divination with chess or something, but that's just a vague memory. Needham is available easily and I'll try mention him soon, probably as soon as my next round of edits. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 01:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Needham is now in the article, and I'm taking a break that may put me off WP for the coming 24 hours or so. Just one more thing, with all the sources that we're pouring into the article it would a shame if it doesn't make WP:GA when we're done.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 03:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, regardless of the Li/Banaschak/XiangQi discussion, I think you're doing good work on an article which badly needed it. The only reason I reverted you was because I had recently made this edit and this edit, in which I tried to neutralize the text on Chinese origin and make it lean less heavily solely on the work of David H Li. I added (IMO) a good extra source on XiangQi. When someone the makes a change back to a text leaning only on the work of Li, with an edit summary that calls Banaschak a 'bad source', I think it is only natural for me to revert that edit, and I still think that makes it a bad edit among many good ones. As you state above about the text after your edit: It gives proper due, unnecessary due even, to Li's theories. I agree, Li gets to much attention when there are other source with (IMO) better credentials (Needham, Banaschak). HermanHiddema 09:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This is good. Even if you don't feel that section is perfect yet, I think we can refine it to be acceptable to everyone (except Chinese origin of chess POV pushers, of course). It can be hard to judge intent based on the small amount of explanation that's available in an edit summary, but it sounds like everyone is agreed that we want balanced coverage, acknowledging minority views but without giving them undue weight. We can talk about adjustments again after the article settles down a bit, which probably won't be that long since Havelock seems to work quickly. This article has tended to frustrate conscientious editors because it attracts a lot of poorly sourced fringe theories and bad scholarship. It's been improving for a while now, and you've both made it better. Quale 18:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Chaturanga/Chaturaji

Given that Havelock is currently heavily editing, I will try not to touch the text until his work is done. I would like to point out however, that the current text contains the following:

Chaturanga was a battle simulation game played by four people; two players aligned against the remaining two.

The reference given for this statement is Wilkins 2002. Now as far as I know, the theory that chaturanga evolved from a four to a two player game was already discredited by Murray in 1913. Looking on the internet, I suggest reading this text by Cazaux for a good treatment of the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HermanHiddema (talk • contribs) 12:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a good link. I think we should include a brief discussion of 2-player vs. 4-player chaturanga in this article. Quale 19:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank You

For letting me edit the article uninterrupted and for waiting to discuss the nitty gritty until I'm done composing a rough draft (which is what this version basically is). I will be composing a "To-do" list after this rough draft is done (which should not really take very long now) and I hope the other editors add everything that's stopping this article's transition to a higher quality scale to it. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 06:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This rough draft should be ready as soon as the modern times are covered. I should be able to finish that in not too much time.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 11:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody mind if I move the article to History of Chess ? Origins of chess is a much limited subject and is relatively distant to the spread and development of the game when compared to "History of Chess."
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 11:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, go ahead HermanHiddema 09:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ! The new image looks good BTW.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 09:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Changes during the modern times are now covered. Will compose a To-Do list later since the article is just a well sourced rough draft at best.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 17:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

To-do list

Following is a list for things that can be done to further promote the article. I'll go ahead and add my concerns first, and will try my best to take care of them as soon as I find some time. I'll be signing above the list because this is meant for everyone so please add your concerns here before we nominate the article to WP:GA. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 14:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Some coverage of Japanese Chess.
• Extensive grammar/spelling checks.
• Mention of Modern tourneys. I can't think of a way to do that which can also stop every fan from adding his favs as an important figure in the "History of Chess" resulting in a chain reaction style series of expansions of the later modern times/recent times section. However, some mention of FIDE or other organizations must occur.

Some points I would like to see adressed: HermanHiddema 15:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Find another source on Chaturanga than Encyclopedia Britannica, because EB still erroneously presents chaturanga as a four player game (see also: Cox-Forbes theory).
• Find some way to rewrite/relocate the first section under India so that it makes sense. Maybe move it down?
• Find different sources for the India section, most of this is based on the erroneous Encyclopedia Britannica.
• Incorporate Chinese scholarship into the Far East section.

I like both these lists. Mention of modern tournaments should be brief here, with possibly more extensive coverage elsewhere. We have list of strong chess tournaments, but that article could stand some improvement. Brief mention of FIDE is also appropriate. It has its own article (also could be improved) for more extensive coverage. History of the World Championship itself belongs mostly in World Chess Championship, which is in pretty good shape. As far as chaturanga goes, perhaps we could use Murray unless his discussion isn't sufficient. Quale 20:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Murray is basically sufficient for almost anything with regard to ancient chess, his work is by far the most extensive there is. One of the only issues on which Murray is weak, is Chinese Chess, because Murray distrusted Chinese scholarship (and did not read Chinese, while access to good translations was much harder in those days) HermanHiddema 21:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Shogi (Japanese Chess), I think we should do a brief mention and refer the reader to the Shogi page for a more detailed treatment. The Japanese pretty much went wild in creating new Shogi variants (see eg: Taikyoku shogi), so documenting that whole lineage is probably beyond the scope of this document. HermanHiddema 21:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Re

I think that we all agree to the following points:

1.) Japanese Chess needs a mention and then the user can/should check the many variants of the game for himself in the main article as it would provide him/her with details. I'll work to incorporate text pertaining to that view in the near future.

2.) The first section under India can be relocated. I'll get to it ASAP.

3.) A brief mention of the formation and rise of FIDE ought to suffice. Will do ASAP.

4.) I'll apply for a move to History of Chess and will attach a commons link as well.

I have been thinking about this, and perhaps it is not actually a good idea? Perhaps history of chess should be its own article? If we keep Origins of Chess as a separate article, Pages like XiangQi, Shogi, Janggi and Makruk can all refer there for their earliest history. An article by the name 'History of Chess' could then handle subjects like Introduction to Europe (through Italy/Spain), Evolution of the Rules (queen move, castling, etc), Setup of Competitions and Associations (FIDE, World Championship, etc). This way, we keep the option open to have articles like 'History of XiangQi/Shogi/Makruk', which would all refer to 'Origins of Chess' for treatment of the common origin of all chess variants. Including history of western chess in this article makes it a bit strange for XiangQi/Shogi/Makruk to refer here. HermanHiddema 12:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

We have to have 100% surety that everyone is on board when a thing like a move is considered. Since that is not the case here the move is off. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 14:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree on the following points:

1.) We have Joseph Needham and even the David H. Li + Banaschak mentioned in the main article and that's more than enough. These guys are seen as experts or popular proponents of the "Chinese origins" theory.
None of the other encyclopedias even care to mention what these sources have to say with regard to chess in such detail as this one currently does. An alternate theory is an alternate theory and that's it. No undue weightage, which would go on to undermine the mainstream theory, should be attached to it in any event. We're building an encyclopedia and not writing a magazine article; for better or for worse the mainstream views have to be represented as they are. Ditto for minority views which already have way too much space here.

2.) Making exclusive edits to source sections using regional scholarship is a bad idea. If such patterns are followed then one would not rely on academic libraries but would have to somehow find regional scholarship to source every line for every region. As far as "Chinese scholarship for China" is concerned I have to say that those familiar with Needham's work will know that he has no western bias whatsoever and is good enough on his own. David H. Li is there too.

3.) I have problems considering EB as "erroneous."

Evolved variations of Chaturanga were played by four people (as documented by Abu Rayhan al-Biruni) and the EB doesn't say that the two player version did not exist or when the game evolved. It just says that shatranj was a popular 2 player variant.

I don't know if the 2002 edition is different, but the 2007 online text reads:

One of those earlier games developed into a four-player war game called chaturanga, a Sanskrit name for a battle formation mentioned in the Indian epic Mahabharata. Chaturanga was flourishing in northwestern India by the 7th century and is regarded as the earliest precursor of modern chess

I don't see very much room for doubt here. EB is simply wrong, it seems. HermanHiddema 12:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The 2002 version has the same text which still doesn't say that the two player version did not exist and still does not conflict with the "already existing 2 player version evolving into a four player one" stream of thought. It simply says that at some point a four layer version was developed. We must type out everything clearly and I intend to make sure that a 2 player version is covered in the article. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 14:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing EB is something I'm not too comfortable with. However, we should make efforts towards promoting the "2-Handed game precedes the 4-Handed game for about four centuries" view by adding it to the article so no scope for confusion remains. I'll get to it but wholesale removal of EB is something I'm not too comfortable with.

Havelock the Dane ^Talk 04:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It might take me longer to make the edits this time though. Maybe a day or two but I'll try to get there soon. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 04:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I have some things to take care of before I can get back to my Wiki-affairs and make the edits. I've just been crazy busy so sorry for the tardiness. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 06:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Much of the material given here is almost exactly found in a very old version of Encyclopedia Britannica. The version is very old so I'll try and find out about other sources. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 07:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It gets better: the material can actually be found in the ninth edition of EB edited by Thomas Spencer Baynes. The ninth edition, published in 1875-89, is often remembered as the "scholar's edition." It embodied as no other publication of the day the transformation of scholarship wrought by scientific discovery and new critical methods.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 08:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't fully understand. What material exactly is from EB? The text that Cazaux criticizes? If that material is from 1875, it predates Murray and is only just after "Geschichte und Litteratur des Schachspiels" (1874). As such, it is very likely that EB 9th still contained Forbes' theory on the origin of chess. HermanHiddema 15:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you find a public access copy of the EB ninth edition. It is available in some libraries for reading without having a paid membership and such. I never said that EB-9 covers Murray but it does touch on Sir William Jones and Râdhakant and Ravana and Duncan Forbes and Bhavishya Purâna and Hiram Cox and the four handed version and the use of Sir William Jones's work and such. Keep in mind that EB 9 is considered especially scholarly, and the text here is identifiably found in there. Murray, obviously is one of the other references used in the "Four-Handed Chaturanga" paper. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 17:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to edit for a brief mention of FIDE, checking grammar etc. and perhaps add a short mention of the chess/AI connection ? I'll get to it in some time. Havelock the Dane ^Talk 15:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so much time. Trade Routes failed a GA nom so I tried to fix it. The article passed a second WP:GA review and now I'm trying for FA status. I'll take care of the above mentioned edits (a brief mention of FIDE, checking grammar etc. and a short mention of the chess/AI connection) shortly.
Havelock the Dane ^Talk 03:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Chess in the nordic contries

From this article:

A variation of chaturanga made its way to Europe through Persia, the Byzantine empire and the expanding Arabian empire.[6] Chess appeared in Southern Europe during the end of the first millennium, often introduced to new lands by conquering armies, such as the Norman Conquest of England.[7] Chess remained largely unpopular among the North European people — who could not relate to the abstract shapes — but started gaining popularity as soon as figurative pieces were introduced.[7]

The source is apperantly

Riddler 1998

So I'd like to know if anyone can verefiy that source..

Althou I don't have any good enough evidences right now(and therfore can't edit this yet), I'm told chess where introduced in the nordic contries when vikings visited Mikligarðr, or Byzantium as it was realy named, during trading journeys. This was before the people of normandy invaded england if I'm not much mistaken.. Also there is atleast some mentions to vikings playing chess and there are some founds of chess from during the viking age... I'll try to find some more information about this later one, perhaps even some english sources that's good enough for this article.. Luredreier 00:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, if chess didn't even arrive in Byzantium till 1100 I'd simply be wrong about chess arriving during the viking age by default as the viking age ended earlier. On the other hand there's some odd referances here.

In a book writen by Snorri Sturluson (1179-1241) a game is mentioned and atleast in this translation it's refered to as chess:

Heimskringla, or the Chronicle of the Kings of Norway (English)

Here is what it says:

162. OF KING CANUTE AND EARL ULF.

When King Canute saw that the kings of Norway and Sweden steered eastward with their forces along the coast, he sent men to ride night and day on the land to follow their movements. Some spies went forward, others returned; so that King Canute had news every day of their progress. He had also spies always in their army. Now when he heard that a great part of the fleet had sailed away from the kings, he turned back with his forces to Seeland, and lay with his whole fleet in the Sound; so that a part lay on the Scania side, and a part on the Seeland side. King Canute himself, the day before Michaelmas, rode with a great retinue to Roeskilde. There his brother-in-law, Earl Ulf, had prepared a great feast for him. The earl was the most agreeable host, but the king was silent and sullen. The earl talked to him in every way to make him cheerful, and brought forward everything which he thought would amuse him; but the king remained stern, and speaking little. At last the earl proposed to him a game at chess, which he agreed to; and a chess-board was produced, and they played together. Earl Ulf was hasty in temper, stiff, and in nothing yielding; but everything he managed went on well in his hands; and he was a great warrior, about whom there are many stories. He was the most powerful man in Denmark next to the king. Earl Ulf's sister Gyda was married to Earl Gudin (Godwin) Ulfnadson; and their sons were Harald king of England, and Earl Toste, Earl Valthiof, Earl Morukare, and Earl Svein. Gyda was the name of their daughter, who was married to the English king Edward the Good.

This could offcourse be a referance to Hnefatafl or one of the other tafl games. Modern chess is still sometimes refered to simply as "tafl" in Icelantic after all.

At any rate, this still don't prove that chess existed there in Snorri's time. We'd need to verify that the translation is correct.

If Snorri is to be belived, and the translation is accurate, we'd have to assume that chess where played by atleast some vikings before the Norman conquest of England in 1066 because Cnut the Great died in 1035. How popular or unpopular the game might have been I can't say I'm afraid although I resent the claim that it was unpopular here because of it's abstract shapes.. Abstract shapes where used to some degree among vikings. They used them in religion among other things and I wery much doubt that a people trading with most of the costal nations of europe at the time where unfamiliar with abstract shapes. The vikings might have been pirates, but they where also merchants with a high degree of interaction with other peoples in europe. Anyway, sorry for the ranting, but I felt rather offended and found it hard not to rant a little.. Going to try to find more information later.

At any rate, that's all for now. Luredreier 21:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Edward Pino

A recent edit has added Edward Pino to the list of twentieth-century leading players who were also leading analysts. I have never heard of him, and an Internet search does not turn him up as a chess-player. Can anyone substantiate this claim? If not, I suppose he'll have to be deleted. J S Ayer (talk) 02:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping an eye on this page—I reverted the edit. We don't need to search to know this is bogus. In the context of that sentence, only analysts who are famous enough to be known to all serious chess players qualify, and whoever Edward Pinot might be, he isn't that. Quale (talk)

Tafl is a predessesor

Should not Tafl be mentioned in this article as a predessesor? AWT (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Tafl was a predecessor only in a very limited sense: it was the predominant board game in northern and northwestern Europe before chess displaced it. Medieval chess was already fully formed when it came into contact with tafl. As far as I can see tafl contributed nothing to the evolution of chess. It is of course an interesting subject in itself. J S Ayer (talk) 02:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's two separate games... Luredreier (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Noshir Jesung's Contribution

A new section was recently added to this article, in which one Noshir Jesung retold the story of the origin of chess as narrated by Ferdowsi so that the war between the princes Gau and Talhend results in the invention of MODERN chess, with the far-ranging bishop (camel) and queen (minister). This is an engaging piece of literature, but in a serious discussion of history is simply preposterous; those pieces were invented in Europe and grafted into chess in the last quarter of the fifteenth century. The passage also uses curved quotation marks and apostrophes, contrary to Wikipedia practice. It also says that "shah" is an Indian word for "king", although from what little I know of Indo-Iranian languages it is Persian, not Indic. For these reasons I have regretfully deleted the entire tale. J S Ayer (talk) 01:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

New Links

I think the external links added July 15 go to very weak pages; what does anyone else think? J S Ayer (talk) 01:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

• Agreed. Quale (talk) 06:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

There was once a link to the Goddesschess website, which contains several essays on the history of chess like those on the IGK website, plus essays on various other subjects. It was deleted; I don't think a reason was given. I didn't object because I wrote one of the essays; I suppose it has been up a year now. Should we link to the several chess essays? J S Ayer (talk) 01:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

That might be to http://www.goddesschess.com/chessays/chessaystoc.html J S Ayer (talk) 02:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

All right, everyone is on vacation. I have just deleted those two weak links and added one that contributes more. J S Ayer (talk) 02:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Conflict here

". That is a conflict here isn't it? So I took what was put in the original chess article and applied it here. Everyone ok with that then ya? ARYAN818 (talk) 22:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

How is "originated in India" in conflict with "attributed to the Indians"? These statements mean roughly the same. The first is worded somewhat stronger, so given the discussion over this, the second one is preferable as being more neutral. HermanHiddema (talk) 12:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Did you not understand what I said? In the Chess article it says Chess origininted from INdia if you go down to the history section. Do you understand that? Yet here it says that it has "been attributed to the Indians both by the Persians and by the Arabs". Which one is it? Is the main Chess article right that it originated in India? Or is this article right that says the latter?.......and by the way......another reason this is a conflcit because in the chess article it says it originiated in India. Here it says it has been attributed TO THE INDIANS BY THE PERSIANS AND ARABS, (as if there saying an older version is from the Persians and Arabs? How can you not understand what im saying? ARYAN818 (talk) 18:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you do not seem to be a native speaker of English, do you know the meaning of the word attributed? The text here is basically saying "Both the Persian and the Arabs claim that the Indians invented chess", which is not conflicted with "Chess originated in India" at all. HermanHiddema (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Well I didnt understand cus it was a big confusing.....But thank you for the insult. Now if I would have done that I would have been blocked. But the dictators of wikipedia let people like u get a pass and insult me.......anyway......in the CHESS article, it says bluntly if u scroll down to the history section, that chess originiated from India. Here it doesnt come off that blunt. Why not? I mean obviously I got confused, so im sure there might be someone else who got confused as well. So why not just say Chess originated from India. Bam period. ARYAN818 (talk) 19:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you were insulted, that was not my intention. Your comment made it clear you misunderstood the meaning of text, and I tried to clarify it for you. HermanHiddema (talk) 19:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

To me it is just two different ways of saying the same thing. Bubba73 (talk), 02:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Well it's over a year now I think . Im not sure how many times, or if any times then, that I have come back and checked if the changes were made then. Maybe I came back maybe I didn't. But anyway it does say it better now!! So ha ha ha ha ha ha I won then!! lol lol ......

Alright im kind of just messing around then waterd . . . . . 71.105.87.54 (talk) 06:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

A source?

The number 2 source on this article, is that even a source? ARYAN818 (talk) 22:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with Wilkinson? (note: when the above comment was made, the article was at this version. In the current version, Wilkinson is the number 1 source. HermanHiddema (talk) 13:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Click the source. IT just has links called A, B, C, D, and when you click th0ose sources it takes you to different parts of the ariticle sometimes? ARYAN818 (talk) 18:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

This is because this article uses a different quotation style than you are used to, I think. The a b c d are indeed links back into the article, which is normal if someone uses named references of the form <ref name="Name">. The reference is to "Wilkinson 1943". This is a common style to reference books and academic articles, of the form "Author Year-of-Publication". The full reference can be found in the "References" section below, where you will find an entry:

• Wilkinson, Charles K (May 1943). "Chessmen and Chess". The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin New Series 1 (9): 271–279. doi:10.2307/3257111

So this is an article by Wilkinson, published in 1943 in the Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin. The reference contains a link to a web version as well. HermanHiddema (talk) 19:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Why so complicated? Why not just have a simple source, if possible, that takes you somewhere simply. I mean to the average person who clicks that link, the link just sometime's takes you to different part's of the aritcle. ARYAN818 (talk) 19:15, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a very common citation style, in fact the wikipedia article on citation uses it. HermanHiddema (talk) 19:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I thought a citation was supposed to take you somewhere outside of Wikipedia? I mean if you can use citations in the wikipedia, then I should do that for other ariticle's. But then again they might not allow it cus some people in wikipedia pick and choose what can be allowed an what can't be allowed ARYAN818 (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Citation can be to books, newspapers, academic articles or other printed media. There may not be a copy available online, in which case someone who wants to verify the reference will have to go to a library and borrow it. Your own citation for the Indian origin, for example, is H.J.R. Murray's "A History of Chess". Which is not available online. HermanHiddema (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Map showing the diffusion of chaturanga from India to the world

I think the large map should be moved out of the section of East Asia because it shows the spread of the chess-like games, not only in East Asia, but even in Africa and Europe as well.PFlores3 (talk) 00:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why not ? I placed it in the East Asia only for practical reason, as it was the only section without a picture. SyG (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this map should be just removed from this page. This map is bearing too many wrong or unproved information, so it is very misleading. Most of the dates are wrong and not corroborated by historical facts. Most of arrows are mere speculations. Not to say that several names are wrong, for instance Senterej is not a North African variant of Chess. It is the name of Chess in Ethiopia and it was not attested before the end of 19th century. Let's forget this map.Cazaux (talk) 21:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

How do you know the information is wrong? Essentially the same map is in Henry Davisonson's A Short History of Chess, so it is referenced. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 00:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

From this edit I was under the impression that is was NOT the map from 'A Short History of Chess'. What am I missing? SunCreator (talk) 00:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

That is where I asked Krakatoa if it was in A History of Chess by Murray (1913) - he said no. Essentially the same map is in A Short History of Chess' by Henry Davidson (1949) (I have that book but not the one by Murray). Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 00:38, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I also think this map should not appear. It shows senterej in Libya rather than Ethiopia; it shows chess entering Germany about 1500, when Murray gives sources showing that it was known at least in southern Germany in the eleventh century; it gives no date at all for Central Asia, where the earliest definite chess pieces were found; it shows chess entering Russia from Byzantium, when linguistic and artistic evidence alike indicate that it entered from Persia; it shows a firm origin for chess in central India at 600 A.D. when modern scholarship favors the north of India and a date a number of centuries earlier; it shows no connection between Japan and south Asia, while Japanese scholars now take such a connection for granted. J S Ayer (talk) 02:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there a good modern book on the history of chess? Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 05:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I have deleted this article three times, giving reasons and asking anyone who wants it reinstated to give reasons. Three times it has been reinserted without discussion. I have therefore asked for arbitration. J S Ayer (talk) 04:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Content fork

The last 2 sections (1850 onwards) a content fork from World Chess Championship. They should be trimmed to a bare minimum (a paragraph, maybe two), with a pointer to WCC. Peter Ballard (talk) 00:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Things that should probably stay in are: informal matches in the first half of the 19th century; the emergence of national championships (nothing on them yet?) as well as the world championship in the second half of 19th century; FIDE; chess olympiads; womens chess; FIDE takes control of the world championship in 1948; FIDE establishes titles in 1950. It would perhaps be reasonable to end the article at 1950 and refer the reader to World Chess Championship. (Except perhaps the emergenece of computer and internet chess? And the explosion of chess theory also?) It's easy to confuse "History of Chess" with "History of the World Chess Championship", but they're two different things; including national, womens and teams championships helps add the balance. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Placement of the images

Shouldn't the image of the Iranian chess set be moved to the section on Iran? And the image of the Knights Templar playing chess be moved to the section on Europe, Early History? And the image of the map showing the origin and diffusion of chess from India to Asia, Africa and Europe be enlarged a bit?FadulJoseA (talk) 12:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

• Done! 119.111.86.72 (talk) 02:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

New file File:Chess players by Anthony Rosenbaum.jpg

Recently the file File:Chess players by Anthony Rosenbaum.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. I'm not entirely sure who's who in this image, although the NPG site lists all their names - I'm sure some of them could be cropped out to form portraits for players who don't have images yet. Dcoetzee 06:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that would be a good thing, especially if someone can produce a key to all those faces. The NPG site lists a dozen of the sitters, but there are more than that in the back row. J S Ayer (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are they all:

Es sind: 1 Professor Wayte, 2 Mr Salter, 3 Mr Minchin, 4 Mr Cubison, 5 Earl of Dartrey, 6 Mr Woodgate, 7, 8 Mr Wyvill, 9 10 Mr Greenhough, 11 Mr Day, 12 Mr Donnisthorpe 13 ? waiter, 14 Mr Tinsley, 15 Rev Mr Macdonnell, 16 Mr Lowenthal, 17 Mr Bird, 18 Mr Blackburne, 19 Mr Vyse, 20 Mr Mason, 21Mr Lord, 22 Mr Walker, 23 Mr Hoffer, 24 Mr Steinitz, 25 Mr Zukertort, 26 Mr Potter, 27 Mr Horwitz, 28 Mr Murton, 29 Mr Studd, 30 Dr Ballard Sen., 31 Mr Hirschfeld, 32 Mr Chapman, 33 Mr Clark, 34 Mr Thomson, 35 Mr Walrond, 36 Mr Gastineau, 37 Rev Mr Pearson, 38 Mr Kunwald, 39 Mr Rabbeth, 40 Mr Eccles, 41 Mr Wagner, 42 Mr Gümpel, 43 Mr Coburn, 44 Dr Ballard Junr., 45 Mr Mackern, 46 Mr Rosenbaum, 47 ? waiter. Gerhard Josten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.229.59 (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

bishop and rook

This sentence was recently changed, giving a reference to Bird: infantry, cavalry, elephants, and chariotry (originally navy), represented by the pieces that would evolve into the modern pawn, knight, rook, and bishop, respectively. Davidson gives the elephant as the bishop. So does The Oxford Companion to Chess. So does Golombek's Encyclopedia of Chess. Bubba73 (talk), 20:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I got it from Bird who states quite clearly that the elephant is cognate with the rook in several different passages. I also checked with one of the other references already in the article (don't remember which one but I can look it up if you need it) which seemed to agree. The "navy" part, also from Bird who makes the statement that the Chariot is also the Boat. SpinningSpark 01:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, please confirm that because the first three references I checked had it the other way. Bubba73 (talk), 01:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll get on it right away, meanwhile, here is a quote from page 46 of Bird,

The moves of all the pieces employed in the Chaturanga were the same as those made in Asia and Europe down to the close of the Fifteenth century of our era. The Queen up to that time was a piece with only a single square move, the Bishop in the original game was represented by a ship, the Castle or Rook (as it is now indiscriminately called) by an elephant, the Knight by a horse, the two last named have never at any time undergone the slightest change, the alteration in the Bishop consists only in the extension of its power of two clear moves, to the entire command of its own diagonal.

SpinningSpark 01:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I have Duncan Forbes, The History of Chess says this,

• The Elephant then, in the game of Chaturanga had precisely the move of the Rook

but I am beginning to suspect from his description that he is talking about what Wikipedia calls Chaturaji rather than Chaturanga and it may be that Bird is using the same terminnology (although I am not reading it that way). SpinningSpark 02:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The encyclopedia by Anne Sunnucks doesn't say and I can't think of any other book that I have that would discuss it. Bubba73 (talk), 03:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Bird was probably mistaken. The google books link is http://books.google.com/books?id=oJPVDNaSL8YC. On page 48 Bird gives a translation of a passage from the Bhavishya Purana: "Let each player place his elephant on the left of his King, next to the Horse, and last of all the Ship..." This contradicts what he wrote just two pages earlier in the quote given above. [Sorry, I see that this could be Chaturaji as suggested above]. Murray explains that rook=elephant was mistaken speculation by some early European writers on the history of chess, A History of Chess, p. 159:

Rukh is less simple. The European dictionary statements that the word means "an elephant bearing a tower on its back", or "a camel", are based upon guesses suggested by the modern carved Parsi pieces, and have no Persian authority whatever behind them. ... There can be no doubt that the chess-term Rukh means simply chariot.

Bird reported the work of Duncan Forbes, which was discredited perhaps 20 years later (see Cox-Forbes theory). We should explain this somewhere, certainly at Bishop (chess)#History and possibly in this article also. Quale (talk) 05:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information! Bubba73 (talk), 05:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

My apologies for the error. I also found An Introduction to the History and Study of Chess (1804) while searching which has much information. The link in the Chaturanga article to Chaturaji also seems to be perpetuating the Forbes theory without contention. The Chaturaji article mentions Murray but fails to make clear that this is the modern consensus. At the risk of more odium being heaped on me, I will put that right. I will also remove the bit I put in that originally chariot=ship as it is now clear that this is a consequence of making Chaturanga=Chaturaji.

I also have a mind to redo the diagrams in the Chaturaji article which use chess icons and thus tend to perpuate this error. I would appreciate some feedback on this as it is a non-trivial task and I would not want to put in the effort only to have it reverted. I propose icons for "elephant" and "ship", the rest the same as chess. The four sets of pieces to be coloured red, green, yellow and black at East, South, West and North respectively as described in Bird (quoting the Bavishya Purana).

SpinningSpark 10:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• Bishop, Knight, Rook were originally Elephant, Horseman, Chariot. But in some parts of India now, and in Russia, the rook became a boat or ship. And in some parts of India they became Camel, Horse, Elephant. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Dead External Link

The last external link, to chessmuseum.org, is dead, and I can't find a new location with a search engine. Can the person who originally contributed this link (or anyone else) help? J S Ayer (talk) 03:00, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Kshatranj... not chaturanga

Kshatranj is sanskrit for 'battlefield'

New claim of antiquity in China

Some nameless contributor has inserted yet another unsupported claim of great antiquity of chess in China, taking it back to the Warring States Period. It is buttressed by one link to a document in Chinese and one to Sam Sloan's essay. It contradicts Peter Banaschak's statement that the earliest definite reference to chess in Chinese literature is in an essay by a Tang Dynasty government minister in the ninth century C.E. I have therefore called for references at three points, and I hope someone who reads Chinese will evaluate the Chinese document. Failing support, these claims must go. J S Ayer (talk) 02:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

We have been through this before. I recently got Pritchard's Encyclopedia of Chess Variations, and it agrees with the non-China version. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 02:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The king is not dead

According to Checkmate, the phrase "Shāh Māt" means literally "the King is ambushed" (or "helpless", "defeated", or "stumped", but not "dead"). I suggest that this common misconception that it means "the King is dead" be corrected in this article. It would be nice if these two articles agreed on the translation. EdwardSabol (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I made the change. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 19:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I would go with "Helpless" as in "There's no way he can get out of this one!" The confusion apparently arose because "mat" means "dead" in Arabic. J S Ayer (talk) 04:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, since New Oxford American Dictionary says "helpless". Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 05:16, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

New claim of extreme antiquity in India

"Findings in the Mohenjo-daro and Harappa (2600–1500 BCE) sites of the Indus Valley Civilization show a prevalence of a board game that resembles chess." I don't know when I will be able to find a copy of the cited source. Please: how, exactly, does it resemble chess? J S Ayer (talk) 05:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I would see some examples of these games. There are chessboard ? I am interesting of this. --Andriolo (talk) 10:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Try an image search on Google. I also found a nice image in the following source in the local library: Angelillo, Maria (2007). India: history and treasures of an ancient civilization. White Star ISBN 8854403067. 208 pages. Wiki-uk (talk) 16:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Games on draughts board with military tactics in Classical Antiquity.

About etimology of italian "Alfiere", eng. Bishop it is not sure that came from Arab language.

It is plausible that also the Arabs have taken the word from Latin Ferens the soldier who carries the flag. In Italy the word "alfiere" means the bearer of flag. Example in medieval Palio. During Roman Empire was called Aquilifer. So the word is returned in Italy from Arabs as in English much latin words are returned with Normans conquest. See http://www.etimo.it/?term=alfiere

Indeed can not to be two sets of knights. (Arab: Al-Faris means knight). In western world the Bishop is represented with an Partian catafratta armor. Which suggests also a possible derivation from war games on the board already present in classical antiquity as the roman Ludus latrunculorum war game played almost certainly in 64 squares chessboard. It is arrived perhaps from Ancient Greece, Anatolia, Egypt or Mesopotamia or born locally or born in other parts. We don’t know. The Indian chess probably is only a local variant of game already widespread in the world since immemorial time. Howewer modern rules are established in mediterranean world during medieval period. In medieval Italy, as in ancient Greece, for the things that it haven't clear knowledge about the origin. The origin was attributed to a mythical Orient (Indie). Indeed for medieval Europe Indie means generally Orient, could to be Persia or China to see Cristoforo Colombo that thought to arrive in Indie (plural word).

--Andriolo (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Central Asia Origin, and mediterranean board games influences.

I would only to throw the stone in the pond. Indeed the english articles of history of chess, is too much categorical. Some more “perhaps”…… it will make it better. The hypothesis of the subcontinent (not Asia), is British and was born with the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries and is based on Indian legends written, however several centuries after the facts. (The first indian source of chatrang are witten in XII century). In the sameway why not in Ancient Babil ? (An italian legend in Jacopo Cessole book say about Nabucodonosor. However the chess until the Italian Renaissance, in Latin, were called Ludus latrinculorum so we are unable to say if gothic Teodorico il Grande (500CE) played chess or latrunculorum. The mention of latruculorum as chess appared in Europe in sources of c.a. 900-1000 CE with the end of dark age. This mix of terminology has caused lot of problems.

Archaeology tells us two things: 1) the most ancient findings of boards that we use in chess are in the Mediterranean area (8x8 chessboard with two colors diagonal squares used probably for Dama). File:scacchiera2-300x231.jpg This is only one of innumerable examples. It is in pubblic area in Brescia in some roman ruins on Foro. The black is X. 2) the first discoveries of chatrang that we have are in Uzbekistan (c.a. 700 CE Uzbekistan was India at wide sense, in this period) I remember that Scythian kings was considered Indians for Greeks and also for the hellenized Parthians and Sassanids. As for Alfonso X.

The central Asia origin, in the Silk Road, between Caspian Sea until Afghanistan (in area influenced from Parthian or Sassanid empire), I think can explain lot of things and the possibility for other steppic tribe as the germanic Goths to play chess before the Arabs. About latrunculi type see also see Tafl games. About latrunculi archeological findings in this book http://books.google.it/books?id=NJMcQ3az2KUC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=ludus+lusoria+brescia&source=bl&ots=M9HsPFeqEf&sig=DK0lGlwwGuk2RF53q3VjQuramEI&hl=it&ei=YyB_TaaVI4vasgaB6MTuBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ludus%20lusoria%20brescia&f=false

Only the beautiful examples of Mohejodaro can resolve the temporal contradictions with mediterranean chess or lantruculi and sustain the Indian Origin. The Egyptians and Knossos zachitrion are indubitely too much different table games. Gupta origin is too much recent. Jacopo Cessole has reason, it must be know well before than Arabs. Howewer that modern chess with mediterranean 8x8 board could be born only in Central Asia with a mix.

(this is a fragment of a discussion open in chess article)

--Andriolo (talk) 08:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Mohejodaro board games resemble germanic Tafl and nordic versions Latrunculi with a central king  ??? ....... http://www.worldinprint.com/pictures_1182830/board-game.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.75.119 (talk) 14:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

VENAFRO CASE There is also an OOPART chess pieces in roman tombs, the range of dating of the chess is controversial, 700-1000CE, 95% 850-1000CE 68% c.a. radiology on the material but the discussion is open. There are scolars that say it is an example of pre-islamic chess in Europe. And there are scholars that say that came in Italy during islamic incursion and Sicily invasion, but the style is different from sicilian pieces. And it is open the question, how these chess are finished into the roman tomb. http://goddesschess.blogspot.com/2009/08/mystery-of-venafro-chess-pieces.html http://goddesschess.blogspot.com/2009/08/mystery-of-venafro-chess-pieces-part-2.html Howewer they are serious claim that they are very old contemporary Uzbekistan.

There are other controversial findings in Butrint 600-700 CE during Byzantine Empire. The two colored chessboard are common in roman empire for Dama, and there isn't mystic interpretations. I think that Murray is too much old book. Gupta thesys is unsustainable. If you want Indian thesys, the chess must be older. --Andriolo (talk) 00:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it is well documented how Chess was taken up by Persians first from India (there is even a manuscript with a pic showing an Indian explaining the game to a Persian emperor on the History page itself) and then Arabs. If I am not mistaken, there are book written about Chess during those times. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:47, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I do not know if it is born in India (subcontinent today) or not, because “India” in medieval time was an ambiguous word often meant East Asia in general.

Murray is an old book. he didn’t know modern archeological and archival sources.

The manuscript with the image that you are referring is very recent at time the venetians sold chess “in cristallo di rocca” to Mongols long the Silk Road. In medieval time, the cosmopolitan people of Silk Road (Westerners, Persians, Arabs, Greeks, Jews, Slavs, Mongols) played together in the caravanserrais and in the brothels.

Contacts between the North Africa and Spain Arabs and Western worlds until the thirteenth century were quite limited for religious and war reasons. The Arabs do not set foot in western cities. The Italian merchants could not leave the “fondaci” in the muslim harbours. If an infidel merchant left Alexandria to move down the Nile could be killed. The contacts were limited and left to Jews intermediaries.

Things were much easier in Terra Santa, Asia and around the Black Sea. The directly asian way is more valid, at least for Italy city-states and Byzantium.

The questions are still open...