Talk:Tamara Toumanova

Georgian princess

Parents (Tamara Toumanova): a Tsarist colonel and a Georgian princess fleeing the Bolshviks. Examiner (Launceston, Tas.), Saturday 19 April 1952, page 12 [[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shulyatikov (talk • contribs) 09:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

"Sources"

The cited site http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm is not a reliable source. It is "an unofficial fan site created and maintained by Jorgen Wilhelmsson" [2] and believes that "Tamara Toumanova (Tumanishvili) was born in 1919 by Georgian parents" while it is a fact that at least her father wasn't a Georgian. Citations like Georgian Dancers, LLC Books, 2010 and International Encyclopedia of Dance, Oxford University Press, 1998 are not correct, authors and pages are not mentioned. See WP:RS and WP:Offline. 89.178.121.40 (talk) 07:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd love to make the references complete, but the page has been protected. Besides that, I assume that all sources not supporting her Armenian descent are unreliable... Antique Rose — Drop me a line 12:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

then what was the reason for editwarring, if you think all sources not supporting her Armenian descent are unreliable? it's better to think at first and then act. 85.141.14.195 (talk) 08:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I was being ironic... Antique Rose — Drop me a line 14:41, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

You're always more ironic than serious. but this is an encyclopedia... 85.141.14.195 (talk) 06:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is. So please stop your Armenian POV pushing. Tamara Toumanova was of Georgian ancestry. She has confirmed that in several interviews. You have yet to produce reliable sources supporting her alleged Armenian descent. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 10:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

As I asked earlier, you never provided any reliable sources. A source calls her mother "Georgian princess", you're using it as a source in support of her Georgian descent. Before starting editwarring please discuss and made consensus here. 176.14.208.162 (talk) 04:30, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I have provided several reliable sources, but you keep deleting them. That is considered vandalism. Toumanova has confirmed her Georgian descent in several interviews. Your sources are questionable at best. Toumanova's Georgian descent is an established fact. So, before you continue edit warring, please discuss. Your alleged sources lack ISBN, author and page references. One "source" refers to a search page of the Russian version of Google Books. Do you consider that being a reliable source? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 13:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear All, I don't understand why this is still being discussed as this issue was already addressed above in a section Sources. Firstly, she is of Polish/Ukrainian and Georgian descent, not just Georgian (or Armenian), her father was Khazidowich-Boretski, a Pole from Ukraine. Secondly, Tamara herself, her mother and her family and friends have stated that her mother is Georgian. These are primary sources and should be taken as facts, the rest is speculation and rumours. Thirdly, although we are mentioning an Armenian hypothesis, we don't need to put in so many sources, as most of the sources are citing each other, only sources from Lopato and Heppenstall are originals, the rest are citing them, so its in fact the same source (by the way of background none of them knew Tamara or her family well or at all, so its very much secondary sources). Finally, this information should not be in the first sentence of the article, she is known as an American ballerina and actress, period. This above info should be in the personal life section when describing her mums biography, so a request to admin should be to move this sentence about her descent further down the text and state that according to Tamara and her family she was Georgian, but some sources also note possible Armenian heritage. I believe this is objective and fair based on the information available. --DPetryz (talk) 22:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

If her father was Konstantin Zakharov, wouldn't she have been born Tamara Konstantinovna Zakharova?? Just curious. Quis separabit? 19:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Анкеты заполненые Тамарой Тумановой, родителями Евгенией и Владимиром.Не было фамилии ХАЗИДОВИЧ и Tumanishvili в документах Тамары и её роди...

Анкеты заполненые Тамарой Тумановой, родителями Евгенией и Владимиром ( Khassidovitch) можно посмотреть по адресам:

• http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?cj=1&srchb=r&gss=affiliate&rank=1&gl=allgs&gspl=1%2cAny+Locality&pcc=2&prox=1&gsln=Toumanova&o_xid=0001231454&o_lid=0001231454

• http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=ms_f-2_s&gsfn=Khassidovitch&gsln=Khassidovitch&uidh=000

'* Не было фамилии ХАЗИДОВИЧ и TUMANISHVILI в документах Тамары и её родителей. Во всех юридически значимых документах Тамара и её родители писали Khassidovitch и/или Toumanov(a) и одновременно указанием в анкетах одновременно двух фамилий. Это подтверждается множесвом имиграционных анкет и заявлений в официальные органы США, Канады, Австралии и др.Фамилия отца Тамары, мужа Евгении указывалась одна фамилия в основном Khassidovitch. Так писали Тамара, Евгения и Владимир в анкетах. Фамилия Владимира в России всегда была Хасидович. Khassidovitch, фамилия которую записал Владимир при выезде из России. В предыдущем разделе даются ссылки, которые каждый может посмотреть.Других вариантов написания фамилий в официальных, юридически значимых НЕТ Shulyatikov (talk) 19:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Khasidovitch was Eugenia's second husband, and it can be that she later converted to his last name, and then to many other last names as she married many more times. This, however, does not explain who Tamara's father is and what name she had at birth, so instead of this copy/paste work, I suggest you join us in research.--Andriabenia (talk) 19:53, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Khassidovitch-Toumanov(a)

• Khassidovitch - Toumanov(a) [[3]] Shulyatikov (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

How many time should I repeat that ancestry.com list that you provide does not prove Tamara's name at birth. It may, at most, be a clue as to what her name was at the time of naturalization or when she entered the United States. Is this really so difficult to understand?--Andriabenia (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Name at birth

Since ancestry.com search listing is not in any way a proof of Tamara's name at birth, I took out the birth name notion altogether. It should not be included unless there is a document or other reliable primary source that explicitly states it. I have also reverted the "references" to prove her Armenian origin because they did not support the proposed text, not to mention that all of them are rendered irrelevant given Tamara's own statement about her origins, which I included as the first reference.--Andriabenia (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources supporting her alleged Armenian descent

• Do Google Books search results constitute encyclopedically reliable sources? [4] [5]
• Александр Васильев Волшебное зеркало воспоминаний: ЛЮДМИЛА ИЛЬИНИЧНА ЛОПАТО – no page given.

And, people, please, do not add edit summaries like "rv deletion of sourced info, georgian nationalist pov-pushing". That's just plain rude. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 14:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Google books is a collection of books, both reliable and unreliable. For Lopato, the page is [6]. Rast5 (talk) 16:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

What sources we have?

The suspected sockpuppet removed information about Toumanova's father Vladimir and added that "Georgian Princess Eugenia Tumanishvili, was fleeing Georgia in search of her husband, Konstantin Zakharov, a doctor of the Caucasian Military District". It is sourced (falsely) by Examiner's article, as you can check here [7]. Rast5 (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It is not sourced falsely. The proper citation is ^ Arabesque: Georgian Ballet Magazine No 2 (15) 2010, p. 63, which is still there, but has a different citation number because of all the nonsense that you inserted in between.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Konstantin Zakharov

Konstantin Zakharov !? Shulyatikov (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Pardon me but this is not a free association session at your psychologist's office. You cannot throw puzzling statements like this here and there, especially that it took me a substantial amount of time to archive everything that you littered this page with in the past days.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this page for 3 days due to an ongoing edit war. Use the time to resolve this dispute. Users who continue to edit war after protection expires may be blocked from editing so that non-disruptive editors are not prevented from improving and maintaining this article. Regards, causa sui (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Please look in the archives of this talk page, do these accounts seem willing to settle anything?--Andriabenia (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Правильно заблокировали основной текст. Have correctly blocked the basic text

• Правильно заблокировали основной текст. Не вижу необходимости детально разбирать личную жизнь Евгении матери Тамары.Очень вероятно, что отец Тамары - Захаров Константин. То что фамилия Тамары с какого то времени стала Хасидовичь это факт.
• Вероятно существуют документы о первом браке Евгении: известы родители Захарова Константина, где и когда он учился в гимназии, получал медицинское образование.Наверно сохранились записи в церковных книгах о регистрации брака и месте где проходило венчание. Где? в Грузии? или нет?
• В Российских медицинских списках 1913, 1914, 1916 годов, в списках врачей СССР 1924 года Захарова Константина нет.Не ясно, видел ли Константин Захаров дочь Тамару после её рождения?
• Следует воздержаться от разблокирования основного текста.Я первым указал на текст грузинского издания, в котором упоминается Захаров Константин, как отец Тамары.Моя цель узнать более полную информацию о нем. Но не могу пока отнести это издание к АИ, так как текст содержит больше вопросов, чем ответов о родителях Тамары. Shulyatikov (talk) 06:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
• have correctly blocked the basic text. I do not see necessity in details to assort private life Evgenies of mother Tamara. It is very probable that Tamara's father - Zaharov Konstantin. That that Tamara's surname with what that of time became Hasidovich it is the fact.
• Possibly there are documents on first marriage Evgenies: известы Zaharova Konstantin's parents where and when he studied in a grammar school, received a medical education. Records in church books about registration of marriage and a place likely have remained where passed wedding. Where? In Georgia? Or not?
• In the Russian medical lists 1913, 1914, 1916, in lists of doctors of the USSR of 1924 Zaharova Konstantin is not present. Not clearly, whether saw Konstantin Zaharov daughter Tamara after its birth?
• it is necessary to refrain from разблокирования the basic text. I have specified to the first in the text of the Georgian edition in which Zaharov Konstantin, as Tamara's father is mentioned. My purpose to learn fuller information on it. But I can not while to carry this edition to АИ as the text contains more questions, than answers about Tamara's parents.Shulyatikov (talk) 06:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The only 'source' this Zaharov appears is a georgian journal. Many reliable sources like A. Vassiliev, Lopato in their books, "Motion picture" #67-68 of 1944, also [8] mention Khassidovitch as her father. Rast5 (talk) 10:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

"Possibly there are documents on first marriage", "In the Russian medical lists 1913,1914, 1916"....etc All of this requires sources. If we had access to Tamara's Russian medical records and documents on Evgenia's first marriage, this dispute would not arise in the first place. So I'm really confused as to what you are trying to accomplish by continuously publishing this nonsense. Find me her medical records, find me Eugenia's marriage certificate and that will be the end of the story.--Andriabenia (talk) 09:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if Khasidovitch was her father, we do not know whether that was her name at birth, because 1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was. 2.If Khasidovitch was a tsarist colonel, as the sources claim, then it was possibly unwise for Eugenia to let the world know that Tamara was his daughter, considering that in revolutionary Russia tsarist loyalists where themselves fleeing. That is why I propose that we drop discussing her birth name altogether, unless there is an explicit proof--Andriabenia (talk) 10:19, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

According to sources, Khassidovitch was her father, and her birth name was Khassidovitch (see f.e. Derek C. Hulme, 2010, p. 758). The only 'source' that thinks otherwise is that georgian journal, we have no reliable sources, and everyone except you sees its nonsense. Her Khassidovich surname is even proved by US Official Naturalization documents [9]. It is a primary source for Wikipedia! Rast5 (talk) 13:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Then show me that naturalization document, don't show me an ancestry.com listing. Ancestry.com search list is not a document.--Andriabenia (talk) 13:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• Уважаемый Andriabenia! Вы сами можете зайти на сайт Ancestry.com.Спор тут не уместен - ВАМ НАДО ПОСМОТРЕТЬ САМОМУ.По имени и/или фамилии Toumanjv(a) и/или Khassidovitch Вы без всякой регистрации можете посмотреть перечень документов связанных с этими фамилиями [[10]].Более полную информацию можно получить после регистрации (на этом же сайте) бесплатно в течении 14 дней. Имеет смысл набрать и фамилию Tumanishvili Захаров и др.(Вы убедитесь, что с этой фамилией документов на сайте нет).В отношении медицинских списков - они есть в библиотеках Тбилиси и других крупных городах. Существуют фонды церквей, гимназий в архивах Грузии. Из американских источников известна дата рождения Евгении 21 апреля 1899 года. Можно предположить и сроки первой свадьбы (если она была) Евгении.Я предполагаю , работники архивов Грузии Вам помогут.Я скопировал с экрана изображения и превратил их в рисунки (которые Вы вероятно смотрели), чтобы выложить их на своем сайте, так как вероятно указанные мной адреса Вы не смотрели (открывали).По этому адресу я выложу и другие документы, поэтому периодически смотрите этот альбом фотографий.Но почему Вы не указываете полные данные о Захарове Константине? Не вижу необходимости обсуждать публично личную жизнь Евгении (1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was.).Зачем? Успехов! Shulyatikov (talk) 05:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Прошу воздержаться от доступа к основному тексту статьи о Тамаре. Shulyatikov (talk) 05:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Respected Andriabenia! You can come on site Ancestry.com.Спорить here it is not necessary - YOU SHOULD LOOK САМОМУ.По a name and-or surname Toumanjv (a) and-or Khassidovitch you without any registration can look the list of documents connected with these surnames [[11]]. Fuller information can be received after registration (on the same site) free of charge in a current of 14 days. It makes sense to type and surname Tumanishvili Zaharov, etc. (you are convinced that with this surname of documents on a site is not present).В the relation of medical lists - they are in libraries of Tbilisi and other big cities. There are funds of churches, grammar schools in archives of Georgia. From the American sources the date of birth Evgenies is known on April, 21st, 1899. It is possible to assume and terms of the first wedding (if it was) Evgenies. I assume, workers of archives of Georgia will help you. I have copied from the screen of the image and have transformed them into drawings (which you possibly looked) to lay out them on the site as addresses possibly specified by me you did not look (opened).По to this address I will lay out also other documents, therefore periodically look this album of photos. But why you do not specify the full data about Zaharove Konstantin? I do not see necessity to discuss publicly private life Evgenies (1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was.). What for? Successes!

I ask to refrain from access to the basic text of article about Tamara. Shulyatikov (talk) 06:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Reverting to the pre-edit war version

I am going to revert to the pre-revert war version, which means that the so called "references" that have been inserted afterwards will be removed. To avoid later confusion, I am going to restate what I discussed endlessly in the archived talk, as well as edit summaries when I first cleaned up the article.

• Ancesty.com search listing is not a proof of anyone's birth name. It can be, at most, a proof that such person existed and carried the listed name when she entered the US or when she was naturalized. Since we have no better sources for the birth name, I'm removing any notion of birth name, as I had done before, and it should not be reinserted unless there is a source that explicitly states what her name was.
• The sources inserted by user:rast5 either do not support the proposed text or use each other as references. Different works should not be inserted separately if they are all based on a single source or one another.
• Furthermore, it is a matter of common sense that the statements made by the personality herself should carry more weight than the "he said/she said" information dug up on the web. Deleting it, which user:rast likes to do, or throwing it with other sources is, therefore, unacceptable.
• Lastly, this is an English wikipedia and discussions must take place in English. Pasting Russian-language texts, as user:Shulyatikov likes to do, or pasting rough google translations that confuse us even more, are not welcome. As you can see, I archived this talk page only a short while ago and it is already full with text that no one can make sense of.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It was your sockpuppet, that started the edit war and deleted the relieble sources putting the photo of a tomb as a relibale source. Deletion of reliable sources is considered vandalism. 178.176.133.57 (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)