Talk:Intelligent design and science

Removing or amending the Peer-Review section.

Here is a list of over 50 pro-ID papers that would contend with the statements made from a citation from 2004!

PEER-REVIEWED & PEER-EDITED SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATIONS SUPPORTING THE THEORY OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN (ANNOTATED).

As I mentioned on the previous page. You don't have to use the Discovery Institute link itself, but you DO have to explain why all 50+ of these aren't valid. If even ONE of these articles is valid then this section just needs to be removed I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkl728 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, there is ample evidence that the DI make spurious claims about getting support from peer reviewed articles. If a reliable third party secondary source has made such analysis we can report that, but we certainly can't take the DI's statement as anything other than a primary source of their claim. . . dave souza, talk 19:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Pkl728, I don't think we want to remove that information because the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case was integral in the identification of ID as creationism and pseudoscience. It does seem that the list of peer-reviewed articles presented on that page were published after this decision, but as dave souza said, the DI is known for making false claims as to their intentions and specifically regarding the existence of peer-reviewed publications. I think the most we can do for you is add a prepositional phrase to the sentence in question, dating the reference. Something like, "In 2005, the Kitzmiller verdict stated that..." Would that suffice? -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 19:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

MisterDub, that would not suffice because it is a false claim. In order for you to say there are NO peer-reviewed papers that are pro-ID then you are going to have to explain to me why all 50 of those articles are "false claims" or "pseudoscience."Pkl728 (talk) 19:54, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. Dating the reference would make the statement true because it was certainly true at the time. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 19:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I see that someone has removed the additions made to the last paragraph on Peer Review, so a re-added them. I find that there are many editors here that uses this article as bias propaganda, which is unacceptable. Whatever your ideas are on Intelligent Design and the Discovery Institute, it is an irrefutable fact that the Discovery Institute do claim that they have published over 50 peer review articles, most of them not in their own journals but in mainstream science journals. To censor this information would be misleading, creating the perception that the DI have no reply to this charge. I understand that there are some strong feelings against ID and DI, but since intelligent design is the brainchild of the Discovery Institute, it would be ridiculous not to allow the views of the DI to be reflected in the article, provided that it is clearly stated as the view of the Discovery Institute, which it is. You cannot have an unbiased article on an idea, when only the contributions of its critics is allowed. The article might state that there are critics that disagree with the idea, but it cannot censor the idea itself. Hannodb (talk | contribs) 13:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC-2)

Please don't edit war to introduce ID spin from an unreliable source taken out of context. The other sources currently shown discuss the earlier incarnation of the DI list, and make valid points. The references shown below indicate that the same applies to the current revision of the list: if we add anything about this new list, it has to be shown in the context of mainstream views about the revised list.dave souza, talk 14:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are the one who is committing and "Edit war", not me. In the history, you state that the sources I provided is "unreliable". How exactly is a link to the Discovery Institute an unreliable source for what the Discovery Institute says? Note,my previous point: the edited line DOES NOT claim to be the consensus scientific view, but is clearly stated to be the view of the DI. As such, no factual error is committed. Since ID is an idea promoted by the DI, its views on the topic is relevant to this article, regardless of what its critics might think of it. When a statement clearly indicates that it represents the view of the DI, and you remove it anyway because mainstream does not agree, or because it might make the DI "look good", you are committing censorship and distorting the truth. Please feel free to add to the section that criticize this claim, but don't remove it. Hannodb, talk 17:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC-2)

Hannodb, this type of language is not helpful. Please tone it down, and concentrate on article content, not on editors. You are attempting to make a change to the article which has been reverted. Please discuss it here and establish consensus before introducing it again. There are a number of problems with your proposal, not the least of which is that you're using wikipedia as a source. You also changed neutral language to words we avoid. Both of these are against policy. If you have an objection to the current wording, please state it here, preferably with sources, and we can discuss it. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I see it has been reverted again without any good reason provided. That's too bad, as I tried to get a little bit more balance into this heavily biased article. Jess, you accuse me of using Wikipedia as a source, but I did not. I used the Discovery Institute website as a source to back up the claims I made of the DI, which I clearly stated as the views of the DI. You also say I used "loaded terms" such as "pointed out". Though I don't see how that could be a loaded phrase (English is my second language) I don't see why it was necessary to revert my contribution, rather that to just change the sentence to say "The DI says". It seems to me that there are people here that are determined to remove any statement that is not does not paint ID in the worst possible light, and we are expected to find "consensus" with them. I find the Intelligent Design articles in Wikipedia to be hopelessly biased, distorted and one sided. While it is true that the mainstream scientific community condemns ID, that should really be a topic on its own: "Criticism of Intelligent Design". I find it preposterous that an article on any topic should spend more time on discrediting the idea, than to just neutrally state what the idea is about. (The paragraph in question was originally under "Intelligent Design", and consequently moved here after I made alterations) Since the idea of ID was originally created and promoted by the Discovery Institute, the DI version of it should be authoritive when it comes to explaining exactly what ID is. NOTE: By saying the DI view is authorative, I do not mean that ID is true, or is acceptable to mainstream science, I mean that the DI provides the authorative definition and description of what ID is about. I have no problem with a fair criticism of ID, but what is happening here goes way beyond this: It creates a strawman caricature of ID and then knocks it down. For instance, ID does not claim to be an alternative to evolution, but rather to abiogenesis. ID does not oppose the idea of evolution per se, but reject the Darwinian notion that mutation and natural selection is sufficient explanation for it. Though some ID proponents uses the idea to promote religious ideas, ID is not a religious argument, and ID proponents did not came to the conclusion of ID through religious presuppositions. ID certainly have nothing to say about the natural/supernatural nature of the designer, just as the Big Bang theory makes no claims about the natural/supernatural nature of its cause. And then ID scientists ARE conducting research based on their ID views, for instance Douglas Axe is conducting research on the empirical limitations on protein fold evolution. ID scientists HAVE published their ID based ideas in non-ID peer review scientific journals, but it seems that even mentioning that the DI makes this claim is unacceptable, even though it's factual. And though I am not allowed to make a neutral, factually accurate comment that the DI do present a list of peer reviewed articles in non-ID journals - in order to counter the false statement that it does not exist at all, it seems perfectly ok to compare ID to the "flying spaghetti monster theory", as if that is a factual statement rather than someone's opinion. With this amount of blatant hostility towards ID, I'm afraid will be impossible for Wikipedia to accurately reflect what the DI and ID actually states. Such intolerance is regrettable. Hannodb, talk 23:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC-2)

I'm sorry, but that's TLDR. I'm telling you in order to be honest, not to be mean. Rants about how wikipedia is biased fall under WP:SOAPBOX. Your edit did, indeed, use wikipedia as a source, under the very first paragraph you changed. I also didn't say "pointed out" was problematic specifically (though it is); I referred to WP:W2W, which lists a large number of problematic words, from which you used quite a few. Unfortunately, I'm not sure your proposed changes can be decoupled from the problematic language. You're going to have to make a new proposal which addresses these concerns before we can make any headway.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I would say that what the DI says about themselves should not be taken seriously nor considered reliable. SPSs from the DI are necessarily unduly self serving in the same way that a pedophile group making such statements would be. For instance, if a pedo group claimed to have "50 peer reviewed articles" stating the lack of negative effects on molested children we would not publish that, we would instead turn to a secondary source to comment on their claim, which is what we do in this article regarding DI claims. They are an organization that exists essentially to obfuscate the truth of the state of science (see teaching the controversy) and to promote non-science as science, so anything they say has to be considered in this light (or dark for that matter). N^oformation ^Talk 00:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

If there was a source to wikipedia, then it must've been someone elses link which I merely copied from a previous version. I'm pretty sure that I linked my sources to the DI. I even opened up the link everytime to make sure I have it right.

So, now the Discovery Institute is compared with Pedophiles?? Of all the examples you could use to illustrate your point (911 truth movement, moon landing deniers, Young Earth Creationism,etc), you used pedophiles?? I rest my case. To some people, when it comes to ID, a "reliable source" is anything and anyone who criticize ID. These critics are using their numerical supremacy to ensure that falsehoods are being propagated against ID and the DI. The fact of the matter is, whether you agree with ID or not, ID proponents HAVE published peer review papers which is based on their ID views in MAINSTREAM journals. Those journals I mentioned should count as secondary sources, and people deserve to that they exist. Unfortunately, some people have a vested interest in keeping people in the dark about ID. What is happening here is about the same thing as when only the communist version of capitalism is accepted as a source on an article on Capitalism: The odds of getting a fair representation on what capitalism is about is virtually zero. Fortunately, when I look at the long lists of comments in the talk sections, it seems there are enough people who realizes what's going on. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the time and patience to continue fixing this article, only to be reverted within a couple of hours. So, you'll be pleased to know that you're rid of me....for now at least. Hannodb, talk 08:53, 6 February 2012 (UTC-2)

Convenience break: date of DI source

Looking into this, the reference Discovery Institute. Peer-Reviewed, Peer-Edited, and other Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design (Annotated); 2007 July [Retrieved 2007-07-17]. was misleading as the link goes to February 2012 list by the DI. We've no reason to think that this list is any better than previous lists, but we don't have a reliable secondary source giving a majority expert view commentary on this list so I've removed it and the new claims based on this revised list. Once we find updated references we can review this, but we clearly can't give undue weight to untested claims from an unreliable source. . dave souza, talk 20:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Copying my reply from Talk:Intelligent design: We have reliable secondary sources saying there are no (or few, questionable) peer-reviewed articles on ID: TalkOrigins; Washington University Law Quarterly. The only source you've presented to the contrary is an unreliable source, which lists several (primary) papers considered and rejected by our secondary sources. This is apparently for good reason; looking at your source, the first paper listed discusses biology and never mentions ID. We need a reliable secondary or tertiary source, independent of the DI, which says otherwise in order to include this information. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand what your saying.... but can we have better sources than websites who are spinning opinion? I would think secondary sources wouldn't be enough. What you're saying is that.... some website, who took a scientific paper, or journal or something and pastes his opinion all over it is counted as a credible source. But it wouldn't be right... if you disagreed with it? That's why I'm thinking perhaps only the main sources should be used. Pkl728 (talk) 23:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

See WP:SECONDARY and WP:PRIMARY. In fact we prefer secondary sources over primary sources and rarely if ever allow primary sources to contradict findings of secondary ones. Again, there are relevant policies here regarding sourcing and I have directed you to them. If you disagree with them that's perfectly your right but all that really matters is whether the article meets the policy requirements or not and it certainly does as far as sourcing is concerned. So one said anything about whether I, Jess or anyone else here agreed or disagreed, it's about whether it's inline with the mainstream of scientific thought. Me and Jess may be in a position where we understand mainstream scientific thought and can easily point it out, but that's just to help clarify for people who may not understand this. The bottom line is: do the majority of scientists in the relevant field accept or deny a particular idea? There's really no contest here, ID has been soundly rejected. N^oformation ^Talk 23:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources commenting on revised DI list

• On look! A secondary source on this exciting new list, including an aerial view of the major new intelligent design research lab!!! Not sure if we want to treat this as a reliable source for a paragraph commenting on the new list. . dave souza, talk 20:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

And, helpfully, a review of the first article on the DI's list :-) . . dave souza, talk 20:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Wait, so you are telling me that your "Source" is just some website? Isn't this just as bad of a "Source" as you are claiming the ID link is? This whole website just seems like opinion. I see no sources... its not a "peer-reviewed" anything. How can this be treated as a source? I'm seeing a double standard here Pkl728 (talk) 22:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Scienceblogs is considered an RS on WP because it is written by experts in the relevant field and has a good reputation for accuracy. On fringe and pseudoscience topics we are not required to use peer reviewed literature to balance the claims of the fringe because most scientists don't spend their time debunking what is obviously crap. See WP:PARITY for the relevant policy. Further, any DI source is only reliable for what they say about their own organization and not about science, see WP:SPS. Almost anything they say is going to be unduly self serving. N^oformation ^Talk 22:29, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the other source Dave presented, "Jerry A. Coyne, Ph.D is a Professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago and a member of both the Committee on Genetics and the Committee on Evolutionary Biology." This is more than enough to establish pretty much anything he writes on the subject of evolution as reliable. Yes, there is a double standard, mainstream scientists are taken seriously and fringe/pseudoscience is presented exactly as the mainstream sees it, that's the definition of NPOV. N^oformation ^Talk 22:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I find this a confusing line of reasoning. So... I can pick out a scientist who works in the particular field who believes what I believe but ignore scientists in the same particular field because.... I disagree with them? Or... they are crap because I disagree with them? Adam Wilkins, a molecular geneticist (and for full disclosure a non-Darwinist and non-ID), had his book reviewed here: Oxford University Press journal Genome Biology and Evolution An interesting bit being: "The book's contention that natural selection's importance for evolution has been hugely overstated represents a point of view that has a growing set of adherents. (A few months ago, I was amazed to hear it expressed, in the strongest terms, from another highly eminent microbiologist.) My impression is that evolutionary biology is increasingly separating into two camps, divided over just this question. On the one hand are the population geneticists and evolutionary biologists who continue to believe that selection has a "creative" and crucial role in evolution and, on the other, there is a growing body of scientists (largely those who have come into evolution from molecular biology, developmental biology or developmental genetics, and microbiology) who reject it. In contrast to Victorian scientists who regarded Darwinian natural selection as incapable of creating high degrees of biological complexity, the modern sceptics tend to regard it as of trivial importance: the "right" variant for the right place and time arises and, presto, the population changes! The two contemporary groups, divided over this point, are not so much talking past each another as ignoring one another. This cannot be a constructive situation though whether it has the makings of a full-fledged Kuhnian paradigm-crisis is too soon to tell." Do I get to put this up somewhere and cite it because I believe what it says regardless of what you believe? Its clearly not pro-ID, but it is obviously anti-Darwin. Is this rubbish too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkl728 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with this particular book but if it's an expert in the field published by a reliable publisher then it's probably an RS. It would of course depends on what it was being used to support and it would require WP:DUE weight since it's still not the mainstream. There is also the matter of WP:REDFLAG; essentially, extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. Since the absolute majority of biologists have yet to accept the aforementioned theory then it has to be presented in that way. This is nothing like ID, ID is just lipstick on the pig of creationism (not my quote but can't remember to whom to attribute it) - it's not science by any normal definition of the word science. There are plenty of aspects about evolution that are still unsolved and there's no issue with those things being discussed as long as they're published in reliable sources. It has nothing to do with what I or you think, it has to do with the sources meeting WP policy. WP:PARITY was written because crackpots and POV pushers commonly come up with the Next Best Idea™ and most scientists don't write about it because it's not worth the time. Rather than let crackpots write uncritical articles about things they believe in we came up with a way to allow WP to still present the mainstream take on a subject without requiring the normal stringent peer-review policies. Of course peer review is preferred, but sometimes this isn't possible and so we use the closest thing possible. N^oformation ^Talk 23:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you don't quite understand what the DI is all about. I've been monitoring their posts just to see what they are all about and they seem reasonable enough to me. Hell, they even OBJECT to the Indiana Law which wants to teach Creationism in school. DI Condemns Creationism Being Taught in Indiana Schools ID is not Creationism. They clearly state their differences from creationism: What is IDPkl728 (talk) 23:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you a biologist? Have you been published in reliable sources? If not then it doesn't really matter what you think about the subject. I have at least half of that, being a biologist in training, and I can tell you for a fact that DI is creationism. But my opinion isn't really relevant either. We have many, many sources describing ID as creationism; many, many biologists and even the supreme court. This is not contentious at all in the scientific community. No scientist is lying in bed at night thinking that ID might have merit. N^oformation ^Talk 23:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

@Pk1728, the DI says a lot of things... such as claiming there's controversy where there is none, or saying their goals are different than they clearly are. This is one of the reasons the DI is not considered reliable. They are a political organization, explicitly and objectively aiming to spread disinformation to promote their political agenda. Anyway, this is all off topic. If you have specific proposals to improve the article, please list them with sources. If you have questions about the reliability of a source, WP:RSN may be able to help.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Jess brings up a good point regarding RSN. If you ever think that it's just the local editors of a talk page who disagree with your take on sources then you can always go there to get outside opinion. N^oformation ^Talk 23:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that the recent DI list of 50+ papers they consider peer-reviewed is a primary source for what the DI considers to be peer-reviewed papers, should be given: http://www.discovery.org/a/2640. While many are in Bio-Complexity, a journal specifically for ID papers, and others are conference proceedings, and some are arguments or opinion pieces, there are a few empirical papers in actual scientific journals. I think the DI page should be given as a source (new to this, don't know how to do it), and the page made consistent with the Intelligent Design page. Elizabeth Liddle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elizabeth Liddle (talk • contribs) 19:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, the problem is that, as you note, the DI website is a self-published primary source for their views which have a track record of being unreliable. In policy terms, WP:PSTS requires us to be very cautious about using any primary source. In this case we need to give due WP:WEIGHT to how their claims have been received by mainstream science, and should base the article on secondary sources rather than on the primary source. So, we can use the scientists' comments linked above to give an overview of the latest list and in that context link to the list itself, but we would need a secondary source to support any suggestion that the list includes "a few empirical papers in actual scientific journals" to avoid "synthesis" in producing our own evaluation. This and the main ID page should both be consistent and each should be fully supported by reliable sources. . dave souza, talk 19:44, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Sure looks like a duck

@Dave souza this sure looks like a Peer-Reviewed paper to me: Dissecting Darwinism This is published in Baylor University Medical Center Proceedings, Vol. 25(1): 41-47 (2012). Or is this a fringe journal now because they would DARE to publish something pro-ID.... Pkl728 (talk) 19:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The words "Intelligent Design" appear nowhere in that paper. What part of that paper do you feel is relevant to this article?   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:59, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Now we're just being ridiculous. It has to explicitly say "Intelligent Design?" By this logic, I can say Darwin's Finches doesn't support natural selection because it doesn't say the words "natural selection." Darwin's Finches. The paper I described above is using many of the arguments that Intelligent Design makes, therefore Pro-ID peer-reviewed paper.Pkl728 (talk) 18:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

As noted above, we have a reliable secondary source commenting on this specific paper. That describes it as "merely a cobbled-together list of canards from the Discovery Institute" and it sure seems to pass the quack test. As an aside, as a recent visitor to the Hunterian in Glasgow I'm offended by Dr. Kuhn's presumption. However, if you'd like us to add to this article based on this secondary source and any other reliable secondary sources you care to present, do please start the ball rolling with fully sourced proposed wording. . dave souza, talk 21:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, I wouldn't call that a "reliable secondary source". It's a wordpress blog.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

A good point, but one we discussed above with reference to WP:PARITY and the fact that Jerry A. Coyne is published expert in the topic area (e.g. [1]) as required by WP:BLOGS. So in this instance it's a good source, of course if better expert secondary sources are published elsewhere we should also look at them. . dave souza, talk 21:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I see. I missed (or forgot about) the discussion above. I'm not sure this qualifies his blog as a RS on the topic of ID generally (as distinguished from Biology), but this proposed paper does not discuss ID, its goal being only to shoot down Evolution, and so Coyne is definitely a reliable expert to dismiss it. Thanks for the clarification.   — Jess· Δ♥ 22:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that he discusses ID in his book and other writings. The linked pdf actually gives a remarkably good overview of ID considering that it was written before the KItzmiller trial had reached a decision. Coyne rightly anticipated that ID and Dover would lose, and that "We can also expect that, if they lose, the IDers will re-group and return in a new disguise even less obviously religious. I await the formation of the Right to Teach Problems with Evolution Movement." Worth checking if there are other points for which it would be a useful source. . . dave souza, talk 00:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

@Dave souza Nice find on the article however I will agree with Man_jess's first point. I wouldn't call this a reliable secondary source. Jerry makes assumptions here which are not provable (RNA world and etc.) and then uses those to attack the article. Jerry provides no evidence what-so-ever. This website is just a soap box for him to rail against articles he doesn't like without having to provide much in the way of evidence. So the standard "OOOOOO Jerry talked about this paper on a blog, therefore its been refuted" doesn't hold much water. As far as I can tell, the article conflicts with his world view therefore it is false. Pkl728 (talk) 18:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)