Talk:Genocide denial

Siemaszko

Their claims are quite controversial; including their claims on this article is non-nuetral POV: [1].Faustian (talk) 02:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I dont find any controversial claims in your source about Siemaszko--Paweł5586 (talk) 06:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The source clearly states that Siemaszko represents just one trend in Polish historiography concerning the events in Volhynia (the trend that represents the interests of the Communist-era Polish state). Another Polish trend does not consider it genocide. Nor is the murders of Poles in Volyn internationally recognized as genocide. This article ought not be a soapbox for one particular trend in Polish historiography. Władysław Siemaszko himself was a veteran of AK which as Yale historian Timothy Snyder notes engaged in retaliatory massacres of Ukrainian women and children. He is about as nuetral of a source as would be a vetran of UPA writing about the same events.Faustian (talk) 13:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Read this from begining. Ukrainian nacionalist sources are lying. Now in Poland even Motyka claims that was a genocide. Read Igor Iljuszyn book Ak and UPA, Struggle in West Ukraine. I dont have many English sources, but trust me in Volhynia and Estern Galicia UPA, OUN, and SB made many massacres on Poles, Ukrainian. Polish revenge was made mainly by Shutzman battalions, Istrebietylnyje batalions. AK didnt participate in massacres, it was rarely. Ukrainians has died about 10-20 th. Poles 80-120 th. --Paweł5586 (talk) 19:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

And now Ukrainian goverment and Juszczenko denies Ukrainian responsibility for that genocide. Poland is supporting Ukraine, needed distorting the crime isn't --Paweł5586 (talk) 19:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

• R: Siemaszko's - Ludobojstwa ... (1939-1945) vol 1 an 2 (2000)

• Ukrainian scholars criticize much of Siemaszko's work, in particular the population statistic which are often inaccurate and the inclusion of known forged document, and the avoidance of particular documents that would set a framework to particular facts. The attacks by Polish groups are given with very sparse details and without statistics. Despite the fact that he collected a massive number of eye witness accounts much of the value of his work is diluted by his poor scholarship and his tendencial use of sources. Bandurist (talk) 22:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Piotrowski relies on discreditted spurces such as Korman and is not a historian but a sociologist. More importantly, no country - not even Poland - has declared this to be a genocide. Nobody denies that 10,000s to 100,000s of innocent Poles were murdered in cold blood. But this article is about genocide. So far, only one group of Polish historians (and probably some Russian ones too) believe it to be genocide.Faustian (talk) 22:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You got not actual news from Poland, there were new conferences about genocide and new books. For example - W. Filar, What happens in Volhnia, 2008. In this book are many new documents - most Ukrainians with UPA orders. Look here, in Polish. --Paweł5586 (talk) 20:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Filar belongs to the same circle as Siemaszko: [2]. This article is about genocides which are being denied. Not about mass murder that a small group label a genocide. So far we have one school of Polish historiagraphy claiming it is a genocide, another school of Polish historiography claiming it is not a genocide, and no country in the world having officially declared it to be a genocide. Otherwise you will have to include the Polish state itself as denying this "genocide" of Poles.Faustian (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This Wnuks's text is not actual, now most of Polish historiagraphy are claiming it is genocide, e.g. Motyka. Only Misiło and Drozd are trying to to justify UPA--Paweł5586 (talk) 20:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

First - claiming that UPA's action is not genocide is not the same thing as "justifying UPA." Second - refrences for your claims, please. Third, still no country has recognized it as genocide. Fourth - what do you mean Wnuk's article isn't "actual?" Again, this article is not about a list of mass murders that may/may not be genocides. It is about clearly recognized genocides that are denied by some. It's a big difference.Faustian (talk) 22:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that apart from the Holocaust no genocide is universally recognised as genocide, where does one draw the line, at denial of the Holocaust, the Armenian massacres, the Holodomor. ... ? -- PBS (talk) 22:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

That's an excellent point. Surely a minimal standard (and maybe even too low) would be if at least one country declared it to be a genocide. With respect to the massacre of Poles in western Ukraine, no one doubts that 10,000s or 100,000s were killed and that ethnic cleansing occurred. But even Polish historians themselves are divided on the issue of genocide and no country, including Poland, has declared it to be a genocide. Wherever that line is drawn, the example of Volyn seems to be, so far, not genocide.Faustian (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

If only it were that easy! See the dispute at talk:Genocides in history#Azerbaijani Khojaly --PBS (talk) 08:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Read this.15th July 2009 Sejm of the Republic of Poland adopted a resolution unanimously about celebrating the tragic fate of Poles on the Eastern borderlands. In the resolution they reminded that in July he was passing 66. anniversary "of beginning the II Republic of so-called anti-Polish actions on lines by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - of mass murders about character of the ethnic cleansing and genocidal birthmarks".--Paweł5586 (talk) 11:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

What is a "genocidal birthmark?" Is it as bad as genocidal psoriasis?Faustian (talk) 13:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, though, the Polish parliament didn't declare it to be genocide. The relevant sentence [3]: "antypolskich akcji - masowych mordów o charakterze czystki etnicznej i znamionach ludobójczych". My rough translation - "mass murder with the characteristics of ethnic cleansing and the marks of genocide." Not very direct.Faustian (talk) 13:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes your translation is correct. Last words means - genocidal accidents. It is the same.--Paweł5586 (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

If the Polish parliament meant "genocide" they would have stated so. But they did not. They called it mass murder with the characteristics of ethnic cleansing and the marks of genocide. That's not genocide.Faustian (talk) 17:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Didnot becouse of Ukrainian ambassador protest. But word genocide is used.--Paweł5586 (talk) 06:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the reason it did not use the word genocide but "marks of genocide". If the mass murder in Volyn is considered genocide than you will have to state that all governments in the world - including that of Poland, most historians, a portion of even Polish historians (!), are denying this "genocide" which would be absurd.Faustian (talk) 03:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

subsectioning "Notable genocide denials by governments"

I reverted the revert of sub sectioning. I understand the reason for the revert, but I disagree. In choosing the names of the subsections I specifically avoided using the word genocide for that very reason. If you think the main section header is the problem, I didn't choose "Notable genocide denials by governments" and I'm not objecting to it being changed. As for the {{main}} tag, I was simply linking to the name of the articles. If you think the article names are poorly chosen because they imply the genocides actually took place, that's fine, go to those articles and suggest a rename. I won't object, I just think this article should point directly to whatever those articles are named. If this is almost, but not quite, enough of an argument, the manual of style prefers paragraphs to bulleted lists. Vicarious (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The article name would imply that these are genocides, so the section heading matters little. I think it is the presentation that matters. The paragraphs are a more balanced way to present this information, even more so for the Holodomor than the Armenian case as it falsely presents the information as if most agree that it was a genocide and only a few do not. BTW I do object to the term "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" see the talk page where I explain that I think it should be combined with the article "Recognition of the Armenian Genocide and called "Armenian genocide debate" or Armenian genocide dispute" (as it is by the BBC). --PBS (talk) 13:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I've tried what I think might be an acceptable compromise. I removed the 'main' from the start of each section. If you find this acceptable, my only request is that you find a place in the Holodomor section to link to Denial of the Holodomor. Vicarious (talk) 19:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So what is the issue here? Is it that a dispute about whether a link to Armenian Genocide should be called Armenian Genocide? With the article as it is, I would say "yes". If you want to start putting the other side and saying it wasn't a genocide, the best place to put your case is in the article itself (and on its talk page). If successful, you could get the article renamed and then have a link from here in its new name. Once you have done that, you could try changing this article so that it does not come down quite so hard on the side of "Genocide deniers are always lying". You will have a fight on your hands if you want to do any of that. Your best bet would be to be as reasonable as possible and try to make people see your point of view, rather than having a rant in capital letters, as I have noticed some people have already on talk:Armenian Genocide.

Oh, one last thing. You may find some help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative Views

Yaris678 (talk) 17:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Rwandan genocide

In the bibliography of the Rwandan Genocide, the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano has been cited as a likely source of soft-core genocide denial, by having publicly evoked the theory of the double genocide in several articles published in the period of 1994-1999. (War crimes: confronting atrocity in the modern world (p. 85) by David Chuter) ADM (talk) 00:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

That is an interesting source (particularly for what David Chuter say about the international tribunals and Bosnia), but I do not think one can argue from that source that Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano has been cited as a likely source genocide denial. -- PBS (talk) 08:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Notable genocide apologist

I reverted out a series of edit by user:Santasa99 because this is an article on genocide denial and the sources need to be reliable sources. For example WP:PROVEIT mean that if someone makes a comment on a blog page unless a reliable source quotes the blog and accuses the person of genocide denial we should not list it here. Further this article is about genocide denial, it is not about people who justify a genocide (odious as those views are). -- PBS (talk) 12:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

---

Well it is interesting that you reverted all of my contributions with only one explanation !? - I am not stupid, so I think that your explanation should be a bit more genuine. I listed all kinds of sources and refeerences for persons and institutions that I mentioned (What is your explanation for those institutes and organizations that are completely dedicated to the work of the Srebrenica genocide denial ?!). I did not cite blogs (in each and every case) dealing with comments, rumors, gossips and second hand informations , but only those where the authors have written many articles in which loudly and clearly deny or justify genocide and with certain publicity too. Further, what you mean "not about people who justify a genocide" - what are you talking about ??? What is justifing if not an apologetic manner of denial ?! If one say: "jews deserved gas chambers because ... whatever", for you that is justification not denial ? Or: "serbs had to revenge their forefathers" and slaughtered thousand in Srebrenica and around Bosnia, that is justification not denial ?

Well I am realy stunned and horrified with your removal and explanation of all those people and institutions with this petty explanation , so I think that others need to give their opinion about my contributions, but only after careful consideration of what I wrote.--Santasa99 (talk) 02:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:OR and WP:V and most importantly WP:BLP. If you would like to discuss specific cases, then please lets go through them one by one. --PBS (talk)

The first one in you list you write "DT is infamous by his notorious" -- who says he is notable, who says he is infamous? How is www.newscloud.com a Wikipedia reliable source? -- PBS (talk) 16:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

For the second one "DJ", in you list has an article on Wikipedia so we can take notability as given. But you have not produced one reliable source that says that she did or did not say that a genocide took place, so it fall foul of WP:BLP. We can go through the rest of the list once we have agree on wording/sources for these two. -- PBS (talk) 16:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

You didn't explain the rest, before you deleted all of the inputs (on institutes, organizations). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santasa99 (talk • contribs) 16:39, 24 October 2009

I thought it best to go through them one or two at a time, (and so picked the first two), because AFAICT all the entries suffered from the same sorts of problems. Is there any of the additions that you added to the page that you think does not suffer from these problems I highlighted, we could discuss that one first. -- PBS (talk) 17:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

In a few moments you will be able to "rewiev" new input on Trifunović with all reliable sources (and notable too), rest - later. (Sorry I forgot signature)--Santasa99 (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC) May I continue with my entries--Santasa99 (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The sentence that needs a citation is "The report denied that there had been a genocide and accused the International Committee of the Red Cross of having "fabricated" its findings on the killings." as the given sources do not say that the report denies a genocide, or that the ICRC fabricated its findings. What the current sources say is that they estimate the number massacred as far less than the ICTY. One can easily infer from that that the report's authors dispute that the genocide took place, but that is not what the current sources say. -- PBS (talk) 17:35, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

What you mean "given sources do not say that the report denies a genocide, or that the ICRC fabricated its findings", what you exactly want ??? I really don't know what you want from me, I provided more sources then all others together , stop harsing me. It can't be more clear that he wrote a official report (government document) that provoked worldwide outage and that report was attempt to denied genocid. You asking me to provide evidences for somerhing that is evidence for itself. Do you making a joke with me ??? Should I read a report to you or you can read for yourself? Shoud I find someone to say or write " yah, that is exactly what the report state, denial of genocid, if you READ Report." Stop asking proves or evidences for evidence, thats unnecesary and often impossible !

Not to memtioned that I provided 10 time more evidences and sources for every entries I made, than you see in all other cases together in this section, but you keep deleting my inputs anyway, I am sick of it ! Maybe, you should honestly state your position on these contributions on Bosnia and Srebrenica genocid denial, so that we can ask for arbitration, if your position is unclear on this (Srebrenica genocid denial) issue.--Santasa99 (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not harassing you, you have not provided "10 time more evidences and sources", and for those were you have provided sources, I have not deleted the text.

Please see Genocides in history#Brazil, in the Helmet Massacre four people died, nineteen were wounded, and ten disappeared -- with only 14 killed it was a genocide -- so just because the authors of the Report about Case Srebrenica query the number killed does not mean that they query whether a genocide took place, or that they specifically query the ICRC numbers. If we are going to include that sentence then we need a reliable secondary source to back up the sentence, or a direct quote from the primary source (Report about Case Srebrenica) that backs up the assertion. -- PBS (talk) 11:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You don't harassing me, its looks like you just don't want Bosnian genocid deniers on this list ! Why don't you read Report, and then you will maybe stop doing this !? You will find that sentence backed with primary source - the Report ! What is the primary source for Report if not Report it self ???? Rest of the qouts are actualy secondary sources. What is that you want, exactly ? It is needless to say that what happened in Bosnia isn't a same as what hapened in Brazil and Helmet M. Your comparison of these cases is offensive, atleast. You questioning what hapened in Bosnia and what the author had meant is maybe something else - not what international community (ITCY, UN, OHR etc.) said it si, denial of genocid ! You constantly deleting other geniocid deniers because, its seems to me, thay denying Bosnian genocid, and not because I did not provide reliable source ! Don't do that, thats really bad thing to do ! (talk) 17:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC) I am changing my response for the fourth time because I really don't understand what do you saying ! I don't want to accuse you, or anybody elese for that matter, for the same view on Bosnian genocid as people who denied genocid, but what Brazil and 14 deaths in the Helmet M. have to do with a case of Bosnian genocid deniers and this report.--Santasa99 (talk) 22:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC) Report consist exactly what that sentence summarizing - do you understand that ? If you read the report, or anyone who want to read it, you will find out for yourself.--Santasa99 (talk) 22:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

In case of the Report, author didn't denied just numbers, he denied everything - numbers, means, orders, all the facts. Finaly he denied genocid ever happened (not just in my mind if you afraid of me creating myth or personal interpretation).--Santasa99 (talk) 22:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

All you have to do to include this in the article is either quote the summary of the report (see WP:PSTS), or find a reliable secondary source that draws that conclusion, but without either it is an unsupported POV and banned by WP:BLP. -- PBS (talk) 08:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Diana Johnston published book (alongside with published articles in a far left media outlets) denying genocid in Bosnia (in the same fashon as the Report: numbers, means, orders, places, everything), after she provoked a great deal of anger in Sweden, where she try to publish her book on the first place. Swedish publishing companies refused to publish that garbage, after she explained what the book is about, in a few interviews given in Swedish and UK newspapers. I am trying to find more reliable sources (although I believe I already did !), more suitable to your interpretations of Wikipedia rules, for her denial (not just in that book). I really want to avoid draging this indefinitely because I don't have time nor nerves - I am too close to the suffering and prolonged genocid (denial is a yet another stage in committing genocid), physically and emotionally, but I also believe that people should be exposed where and when ever one can.--Santasa99 (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

See Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 14#Diana Johnstone (You may find the section before it "Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 14#Living Marxism" interesting as well). -- PBS (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for clearing this up, and pardon my naiveness. I thought your perspective in this matter is neutral, so I would probably continuously try to debate with you - an Administrator, and try to find out from where these double standards coming from and when will it stop and where your appreciation for consistency begins.--Santasa99 (talk) 19:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I read the primary source reference you added to the article and as far as I can tell there is no mention in the source on whether a genocide took pace. Also as the article seems to rely on some of the statistics of the ICRC I am not sure how you sum it up as "The report denied that there had been a genocide and accused the International Committee of the Red Cross of having "fabricated" its findings on the killings" do you have a reliable secondary source for this summary sentence? -- PBS (talk) 17:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Denial and Dispute

Having just come from the heavily biased Armenian Genocide article I think there should be a section here on the difference between dispute and denial as genocide despute is very different from genocide denial. Denial is claiming an event didn't happen or attemping to revise history to suit personal opinion, while dispute (of a genocide) can range from whether the events in question where a "technical genocide" or not, usually whether or not a group of mass killings are pre-meditated with the final goal of eradicaton, to whether the disputed genocide actually did occur in the manner suggested by historians, which can sometimes lean to denial if deliberatly innacurate historical analysis is used to come to such conclusions.

A good example are various British-Irish incidents from 1550's to 1990's, which some will claim were acts of attempted genocide from the English/British governemt throughout this period, especially from Oliver Cromwell, while others will claim if that is true then so is the deliberate targetting of early protestant settelers in Ireland by the Catholic population and such arguments go in circles and will never be resolved. Genocide is an unusual and difficult issue, like rape or capital punishment, where what seems clear cut actually becomes blurred when you look at events more closely.212.183.140.19 (talk) 15:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

False claims of genocide is an effective form of hate speech. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Pamela Geller

American far-right blogger and conspiracy theorist, Pamela Geller, has denied the existence of concentration camps in Serbia during the regime of Slobodan Milosevic, whom she has defended.

I have no idea who this person is, but can someone tell me the names or locations of those "concentration camps in Serbia during the regime of Slobodan Milosevic"? --Faveladweller (talk) 17:31, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Srebrenica Denial?

Genocide Denial about Srebrenica?

Many people have found evidence from independent investigators that some of the eyewitness testimony was unreliable, like Dragan Erdemovic and that many of the people killed at Srebrenica were soldiers of the Muslim army and many dispute if Srebrenica was genocide. A massacre is not genocide because genocide is systematic, and massacres are isolated that happen in one place and the smearing of those who disagree with Srebrenica as genocide denial. Makes no mention of Edward S. Herman or Noam Chomsky who both deny that anything happened and there were Serbs killed around Srebrenica by Naser Oric and his band of warlords, several cleansed Serbian villages.

Some of the eyewitness testimony was unreliable and some Srebrenica victims listed as dead were later found to be alive in other places and Srebrenica is also a problem to criticize people's criticisms of it as genocide denial is ridiculous because there is no difference between legitimate criticism and denial of it and Srebrenica body counts messed up certain details and Serbs were killed around the area. Most of the dead were soldiers, as identified by investigators. Srebrenica was largely a massacre of civilians. One report says over 6 years, 6,500 bodies were found. Srebrenica was used as victimization by Bosnian Muslims as extreme ultranationalist anti-Serbian propaganda and the enshrinement was by many, considered ridiculous and many say so. Srebrenica many Muslims escaped the area by bus to Tuzla. Many survived. No matter how many times you say it, a massacre is not genocide!

Genocide denial is LARGELY A MATTER OF OPINION! THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT FORCING OPINIONS AND I FIND A PROBLEM WITH THAT!

02:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 (talk)

Are you sure it's denial or an alternate viewpoint on the massacre? It only says that the RS report is flawed and poorly written, but does not state why and only forces one viewpoint on the whole massacre incident, but does not really bother to go into detail about it and the ICTY report also has flaws as well, such as bad eyewitness testimony, finding Serbs and misidentifications of Muslims as Serbs. Look it up, it's all there on the internet. Srebrenica is a controversial event, but massacres are never genocide because massacre and genocide have two different definitions,.

Genocide is systematic and widespread over a large area. Massacre is an event that takes place within a single area. This is not genocide denial at all. I feel that the whole genocide denial thing is completely ridiculous on Srebrenica, as other sources not listed on here, contradict the official story found by independent investigators from many countries on the Srebrenica case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 (talk) 02:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

http://www.europeancourier.org/99.htm

02:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)