User talk:Honorsteem

January 2012

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article Reductio ad Hitlerum, please cite a reliable source for your addition. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. McGeddon (talk) 10:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi thanks. See my contribution on the talk page there. -- Honorsteem (talk) 11:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your argument; sure, eugenics is a bad thing and it is churlish to dismiss debate of it as "reductio ad Hitlerum". All I'm drawing your attention to is the need for clarity and sourcing - a Wikipedia article shouldn't say "there has been criticism, concern and trouble regarding this subject, but we're not going to tell you where", it should say "person X has criticised it, group Y is concerned about it, and newspaper Z regarded it as 'troubling'". WP:WEASEL has a bit more about this. It's our duty to the reader to tell them where a reaction is coming from, and if it's seeming to come from nowhere (either because it's the opinion of the editor writing the sentence, or because it's "common sense"), we need to take a look through some newspapers and find someone who's actually said it. Does this sound reasonable? --McGeddon (talk) 11:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Although I'd add that the article doesn't really need a "criticism" section - reductio ad Hitlerum is clearly presented as a "fallacy" throughout, rather than a useful and ironclad argumentative tool. --McGeddon (talk) 11:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I was more referring to the using of the term. If someone says "X is like the nazi's" - where X is a valid point, and then the opponent else says, "Hah! RaH!" - then the discussion is terminated. -- 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Sure, people can incorrectly mistake a reasonable argument for a reductio ad Hitlerum (just as a stupid person can misidentify any argument to be any fallacy in the book), but as I say, you'll need to provide a source that's considered this particular instance remarkable, if it's going to be written about in an encyclopedia. --McGeddon (talk) 12:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

February 2012

Discussion moved to Talk:Daniel Pipes#Moved conversation -- Honorsteem (talk) 09:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification

Hi. In your recent article edits, you've added some links pointing to disambiguation pages. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

Electricity sector in the United Kingdom (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

added a link pointing to Big Six

Nuclear energy in the Netherlands (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

added a link pointing to Reprocessing

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:40, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Honorsteem. You have new messages at Jayjg's talk page.
Message added 18:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Jayjg ^(talk) 18:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• Honorsteem, I added a comment to the ANI thread that I hope you will find of interest. Groeten, Drmies (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Blocked

I indefinitely blocked you for the disruptive editing and hounding issues. The clean start problems only add fuel to the fire. If you would like to appeal this block please place {{Unblock|Your Reason for being unblocked}} on your talk page. --Guerillero | My Talk 05:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Honorsteem (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

As for "One to the pillars of clean starts is that an editor leaves the areas that he was once editing in.": I've never issued the Jewish-topics before with my old account (as far as Im aware of). Nobody asked me for my old account details, though, so Im surprised by your conclusion?
Regarding the hounding accusation, it was dealt with at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance#Jayjg_accusing_me_of_wikihounding.
As for formal reasoning, I have not been notified there was a case against me at AN/I. The topic with moving the thread was resolved as it turned out I had all right to do so.
To me this seems like dirty case where Jayjg can't get his way the first time (deleting his moved comments), and gets back this way, comfortably shutting me down at List of Jewish Nobel laureates. If this is tolerated, I indeed have no business on Wikipedia. -- Honorsteem (talk) 10:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Decline reason:

WP:NOTTHEM. It does appear that you are not WP:CLEANSTART, but actually improperly using alternate accounts at this time. I suggest you re-read WP:CLEANSTART and WP:ALTERNATE to understand the differences, and try to be a little less battleground-like in your on-wiki actions. This is a collaborative project, and your actions overall do not suggest you understand this. Please do not submit another request until the ANI thread has finished, and you're prepared to follow the suggestions that come from there (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

I am aware of NOTTHEM, did you read the my actual unblock request? Question: Is it then okay for being blocked when the ANI thread is not yet finished? How am I supposed to make my case? -- 11:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The topic with moving the thread was resolved as it turned out I had all right to do so. - No, you do not and did not have the right to do so. And yes, being blocked while the AN/I thread is running is perfectly fine, especially since the issue here is improper use of alternate accounts - i.e sockpuppetry - in violation of the claimed WP:CLEANSTART. The continued insistence that you are cleanstarting, in the face of evidence to the contrary (not the least of which being this...), doesn't help your case. The claim I have not been notified there was a case against me at AN/I is verifiably false, as directly above Drmies pointed your attention to it following his raising the cleanstart issues there, and you even posted there after the cleanstart issues were raised - to attempt to summarily dismiss them. If you ignored AN/I after your attempt to say This issue is now closed - something you did not have the "right" to do - that's your fault, not theirs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Tanks for getting back to me.

1. About the serviceaward: on WP:SVC it states "These awards are unofficial – displaying the wrong one carries no penalty, and displaying the right one does not indicate authority or competence.". Please explain me what I did wrong?
2. Did I not have the right to move the topic from my user page? That seems to have been the outcome of that part of the thread.
3. I'm sorry I was not aware of special etiquette ruling ANI (it is my first case there) and in other on-line forums this would be a case of thread hijacking. Also, I don't see how my interpretation has been disruptive?

• So I apologize for incorrectly stating the AN/I discussion was closed.

1. Now Drmies published my old user name, can you please in more detail tell me how I perverted WP:CLEANSTART? It still says A user who is not under current restrictions or blocks may stop using their current account and start using a new one. I gave a short and precise summary of my situation, and also my grounds for switching accounts here and I felt there was nothing more to say about it, so I WP:LETGO. For now I still do not see how my clean start invalidated my participation at the discussion of either the Jewish lists or WP/ANI, or, even worse, was disruptive.
2. Regarding the Hounding complaint, I refer again to the Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance-link given above. Editors there say more wise sensible things then I can. I admit my attention was drawn to the topic through Jayjg's edits, but to me, hounding indicates some kind of structural behaviour which I do not show. Also, it seems to me fair for first being warned, before being blocked indefinitely?
3. My statement that I had not been formally notified that there was a case against me at AN/I was a procedural point and you are welcome to disagree.
4. I was not aware I have been (also) blocked of breaching the sock-puppet policy. Drmies seems to collaborate that. Please elaborate? I deny accusations of sock puppetry. -- Honorsteem (talk) 12:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Obviously I won't tackle the unblock request, but I do want to say a few things. Contrary to your assertion, this note at ANI does not satisfy the clean start requirement, letter or spirit. You didn't disclose, you didn't put a notice on the other user/talk pages, you didn't place a redirect, nothing like that, and you did use User:Eiland to make another edit in January. That you wanted to make that edit in itself is understandable--someone asked you something--but it would have been so much better had you been clear that this was a retired account (which, by definition, it is since you evoked clean start). And I gave you ample opportunity at ANI to do so; why you didn't take me up on it is a mystery to me, and it does suggest there is something hidden. Couple all that with the 78,000 edit service badge, or whatever the amount was, and there is a cloud hanging over your clean start, a suggestion that you are avoiding scrutiny (note where the shortcut WP:SCRUTINY goes).

  I haven't delved into the edits you made before and after, but I am probably going to have a look at them to see if your claim is correct, that you haven't gone back to contentious areas with the new name ("will edit in new areas and avoid old disputes").

  For the life of me, I don't understand why you didn't meet the simple requirements of clean start, not even after this became in issue in the thread. BTW, of course that wasn't a hijacking: I cited WP:BOOMERANG, and those boomerangs fly all over the place at ANI--it is to be expected. You seemed to have some grudge against me, though I don't think we ever met--still, the advice I gave you was solid and the questions I asked were fair. I did notify you and tried to communicate with you, and that there was no good response just adds to the cloud of suspicion. I have no desire to see you blocked: I don't even know you, and I don't edit (I think) in the areas where you are active. I do have a desire to see that things are done in daylight. If you wish to be unblocked, I think the first thing you have to do is take care of the old accounts, one way or another (but I suggested this at ANI already, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=477384911 here, six days ago). I have nothing to do with your block on the Dutch pedia, and I don't even care. But as long as you don't understand, or don't acknowledge, that your behavior is what got this going, and to which extent a start is a clean start is determined by behavior. I've gone on too long; I hope this helps. Drmies (talk) 22:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Beste DRMIES,

I don't think you 100% understand the clean start-idea? IMO: Not to be identified anymore with a (clean) old account. It would kind of defeat its purpose by making reference from the old or the new account to each other, now would it? And come on, my edit in January, get a life, will you? "The spirit of the clean start policy"... Also, do get in line with the other editors above with "well earned service badges", and feel free to complain on my not so well earned, and totally pointless service award.
Your offer to disclose to others, by mail, my old account credentials - or to even hash my password! - after I myself had offered exactly the same thing (the disclosure by mail) kind of lit the smoldering fire (do note other "uninvolved?" editors showing up at ANI). As nobody asked me by mail - and I assume nobody asked you? - I am even more appalled by you putting it on AN/I, blowing indeed this clean start. If that is the last of it I guess I'll ask the arbcom about it (how a donkey i can be). Maybe I'll propose User talk:KevinPerros to bundle our cases. Honorsteem (talk) 09:46, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you purposely misreading me? I didn't say I would hash your password; I suggested you do it. You could put a redirect on the old user page--some people do that--but I didn't say you have to. In fact, let me cite from the diff linked above: "Honorsteem, let me propose the following: go to your old accounts, properly logged in as that account, and put "retired" on them, and maybe blank the talk pages. You can even scramble the passwords." That's all. That's all you had to do. Instead, you don't do any of those things, and the "retired" part is mandated by WP:CLEANSTART: "To reduce the chance of misunderstandings, you should note on the user page of the old account that it is inactive, by using the {{retired}} tag or leaving some other message"--which you obviously didn't. You blew your own clean start, by allowing for suspicion of socking. And to be quite precise about it, you did sock, since you did use two accounts: Eiland made an edit in January--this one, while the first Honorsteem edit, this one, predates that by two months.

But I've said all this before. Maybe there's a language barrier here. Maybe you don't want to see what CLEANSTART says. Maybe WP:IDHT is the appropriate acronym to link to. You can complain about my putting this up at ANI all you want, but a. I have a right to and b. you invited this yourself, by charging someone with hounding, a charge which by its very definition will invite scrutiny! And not only did that claim turn out to be unfounded (at least, not supported by the community), but the block made on your account was endorsed without a single editor speaking out against it.

Now, I don't know what case you're thinking of bringing up to ArbCom, but Perros has nothing to do with it--they're not blocked, currently, and they were blocked for something entirely different, so I can only assume that you want to charge Jay with something: an RfC/U would be the proper route, but I think you'll stand little chance of succeeding. But don't let me ruin your party in advance. I hope you can find someone to do the legwork for you; obviously Eiland and Honormeets won't be able to. Good luck. Drmies (talk) 20:48, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right, I misread your hashing suggestion. The next part read If you like, I [Drmies] can block them, and then you can never be suspected of foul play again with those accounts, so thats maybe the source of my misunderstanding. FYI: I didn't complain at wikipedia etiquette, I just corroborated the complaints made by Gsonnenf. I think it is childish to complain on such a forum, but when I saw that complaint, I thought there might be some kind of pattern, so I mentioned it. Also, your initial cleanstart complaints date from before all that (17-2 vs 21-2), so I don't really see the causality you seem to suggest? As far as I can judge, the only reason the complaint there isn't going any further is because I am blocked (hence I am a bad guy) and Jayjg already had issue with CarelMooreDC, so we are seeing some kind of circular argument here, and I don't want to waste too much time on it. (Oh, and I never complained of hounding myself (or did I?) but I guess you mistook?)
Your next point, I have a different interpretation of the phrase "To reduce the chance of misunderstandings, you should note on the user page of the old account that it is inactive." But then again, I am not a native, so complicated grammatical structures might be too much for me. My teacher told me 'must' is used in case of absolute obligations? should is more like "ought to"? Until now it doesn't seem that anybody was confused by my inactive old account so I believe you are chasing a ghost, but indeed, that is your right. Finally, please read Wikipedia:Sock puppet and tell me what was misleading or deceiving in those edits from January. And you yourself write before I wasn't committing Sock puppet abuse, right?) I guess I just couldn't be bothered to login and logout, just like often editors cant be bothered to login to post a minor remark. Please charge me with something more substantial next time or just leave me in peace. -- Honorsteem (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Gladly. Drmies (talk) 02:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

2nd, last attempt

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Honorsteem (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

Please review above thread.

Decline reason:

Above thread reviewed - violation of WP:CLEANSTART still not addressed -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Just to elaborate a little (after email request). Re-use of old account, carrying on a total edit count for all accounts, not "retiring" old accounts, all add up to failure to properly follow WP:CLEANSTART - it really is a "spirit" thing too, and what I think we are not seeing is a commitment to make a proper break with the past. However, if we saw such a commitment, with old accounts put permanently beyond use (mark "retired", and scramble the passwords or ask for them to be blocked with no Talk page or email access), start an edit count afresh from the new account, commit to drop any past disputes and not revisit old areas, then I'd support an unblock if someone else chose to do it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me. I was just looking at Template talk:Retired, also "This user has permanently left wikipedia" seems to be a bit misguided? Anyway, I never really meant to make a clean start, I just wanted to change my user name, and to avoid sock puppet confusion - as that my first edits on my new account would seem to be that of an experienced editor - I added the reference to clean start. I thought I was being transparent, but it seems I've been waking dogs with that. So I'll remove the Clean start-reference from my user page, and insist on my right to have a WP:SOCK#LEGIT. In fact, I don't regret any of my previous actd in my old account, so there is no need. In retrospect it would have been wiser to ask for an account name change, but I didn't know of that option. -- Honorsteem (talk) 09:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh I cant, I'm blocked. In fact, suggesting that I would change something on my alternative user page with my alternative login, that would be block circumvention? -- Honorsteem (talk) 09:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

If you were to go ahead with Cleanstart "Retired" templates as suggested by reviewing admins, I don't think that would be counted as block evasion. However, now that you have said that you do not wish to go with Cleanstart, any current use of alternate accounts while blocked on this one would indeed be considered evasion. I suggest what you need to do is make a fresh unblock request here, explaining your new intentions and addressing the block reason in the light of them -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you estimate there would be valid complains about socking? -- Honorsteem (talk) 10:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Hard to say - but to avoid the risk, I'd suggest you propose your course of action here first and only act when/if you get unblocked -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok

February 26

This user is asking that their block be reviewed:

Honorsteem (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

I wanted to change my previous username due to personal privacy concerns, and unaware of the option to actually change an account name, I opened the current Honorsteem-account.
In order not to raise suspicion of sockpuppeteering - as my initial edits would clearly be those of an experienced editor, I put a reference to WP:CLEANSTART on my user page (its still there). That, however seemed to be a little bit too much in good faith, as at the first case where I asked for administrator assistance, after a few on-topic answers, the case was turned towards my allegedly not-so-clean-start, and I got blocked. Indeed, I admit, I have not intention to leave old topics I use to work on (one condition), and I have not learned from past mistakes (another) - as I have never breached serious policy with my old account! So therefore I think it is time to retract my claim to a clean start - I just find out that it is actually a fork from the sock puppet page! Guilty by association? - and just leave it as is: a user with a new account. I do not want to be associated with my old username, but there seems to be no policy suitable to support that. But I think that as long as I do not use my old, dormant account to disrupt the editorial process, fake votes, the usual sock puppet shebang, there should really be nothing to worry about?
I might put some kind of notice on my user page, but the last time I did got me into this whole mess in the first place, so maybe I better not. I am open for suggestions though (only not for those of 2x4-Drmies :). I apologize for the confusion raised. Honorsteem (talk) 11:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Notes:

• In some cases, you may not in fact be blocked, or your block has already expired. Please check the list of active blocks. If no block is listed, then you have been autoblocked by the automated anti-vandalism systems. Please remove this request and follow these instructions instead for quick attention by an administrator.
• Please read our guide to appealing blocks to make sure that your unblock request will help your case. You may change your request at any time.

Administrator use only:

If you ask the blocking administrator to comment on this request, replace this template with the following, replacing "blocking administrator" with the name of the blocking admin:

{{Unblock on hold |1=blocking administrator |2=I wanted to change my previous username due to personal privacy concerns, and unaware of the option to actually change an account name, I opened the current Honorsteem-account.<br>In order not to raise suspicion of sockpuppeteering - as my initial edits would clearly be those of an experienced editor, I put a reference to [[WP:CLEANSTART]] on my user page (its still there). That, however seemed to be a little bit too much in good faith, as at the first case where I asked for administrator assistance, after a few on-topic answers, the case was turned towards my allegedly not-so-clean-start, and I got blocked. Indeed, I admit, I have not intention to leave old topics I use to work on (one condition), and I have not learned from past mistakes (another) - as I have never breached serious policy with my old account! So therefore I think it is time to retract my claim to a clean start - I just find out that it is actually a fork from the sock puppet page! Guilty by association? - and just leave it as is: a user with a new account. I do not want to be associated with my old username, but there seems to be no policy suitable to support that. But I think that as long as I do not use my old, dormant account to disrupt the editorial process, fake votes, the usual sock puppet shebang, there should really be nothing to worry about?<br>I might put some kind of notice on my user page, but the last time I did got me into this whole mess in the first place, so maybe I better not. I am open for suggestions though (only not for those of 2x4-Drmies :). I apologize for the confusion raised. [[User:Honorsteem|Honorsteem]] ([[User talk:Honorsteem#top|talk]]) 11:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC) |3 = ~~~~}}

If you decline the unblock request, replace this template with the following code, substituting {{subst:Decline reason here}} with a specific rationale. Leaving the decline reason unchanged will result in display of a default reason, explaining why the request was declined.

{{unblock reviewed |1=I wanted to change my previous username due to personal privacy concerns, and unaware of the option to actually change an account name, I opened the current Honorsteem-account.<br>In order not to raise suspicion of sockpuppeteering - as my initial edits would clearly be those of an experienced editor, I put a reference to [[WP:CLEANSTART]] on my user page (its still there). That, however seemed to be a little bit too much in good faith, as at the first case where I asked for administrator assistance, after a few on-topic answers, the case was turned towards my allegedly not-so-clean-start, and I got blocked. Indeed, I admit, I have not intention to leave old topics I use to work on (one condition), and I have not learned from past mistakes (another) - as I have never breached serious policy with my old account! So therefore I think it is time to retract my claim to a clean start - I just find out that it is actually a fork from the sock puppet page! Guilty by association? - and just leave it as is: a user with a new account. I do not want to be associated with my old username, but there seems to be no policy suitable to support that. But I think that as long as I do not use my old, dormant account to disrupt the editorial process, fake votes, the usual sock puppet shebang, there should really be nothing to worry about?<br>I might put some kind of notice on my user page, but the last time I did got me into this whole mess in the first place, so maybe I better not. I am open for suggestions though (only not for those of 2x4-Drmies :). I apologize for the confusion raised. [[User:Honorsteem|Honorsteem]] ([[User talk:Honorsteem#top|talk]]) 11:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC) |decline = {{subst:Decline reason here}} ~~~~}}

If you accept the unblock request, replace this template with the following, substituting Accept reason here with your rationale:

{{unblock reviewed |1=I wanted to change my previous username due to personal privacy concerns, and unaware of the option to actually change an account name, I opened the current Honorsteem-account.<br>In order not to raise suspicion of sockpuppeteering - as my initial edits would clearly be those of an experienced editor, I put a reference to [[WP:CLEANSTART]] on my user page (its still there). That, however seemed to be a little bit too much in good faith, as at the first case where I asked for administrator assistance, after a few on-topic answers, the case was turned towards my allegedly not-so-clean-start, and I got blocked. Indeed, I admit, I have not intention to leave old topics I use to work on (one condition), and I have not learned from past mistakes (another) - as I have never breached serious policy with my old account! So therefore I think it is time to retract my claim to a clean start - I just find out that it is actually a fork from the sock puppet page! Guilty by association? - and just leave it as is: a user with a new account. I do not want to be associated with my old username, but there seems to be no policy suitable to support that. But I think that as long as I do not use my old, dormant account to disrupt the editorial process, fake votes, the usual sock puppet shebang, there should really be nothing to worry about?<br>I might put some kind of notice on my user page, but the last time I did got me into this whole mess in the first place, so maybe I better not. I am open for suggestions though (only not for those of 2x4-Drmies :). I apologize for the confusion raised. [[User:Honorsteem|Honorsteem]] ([[User talk:Honorsteem#top|talk]]) 11:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC) |accept = accept reason here ~~~~}}

Disambiguation link notification

Hi. When you recently edited Elektriciteits Produktiemaatschappij Zuid-Nederland, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Delta (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)