Talk:Territorial evolution of Russia

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with this entry except it does not adequaltely cover ALL non-Russian territories of the empire.

NPOV

Currently, the article is quite useless. It seems like the author's intention was to spawn more revert wars, as if we don't have enough with similar idiotic entries, e.g., anti-Romanian discrimination. He alleges a certain capital flight (using an egregiously modern expression, by the way) from Ukraine to the Russian Empire, as if the former was not the part of the latter! This example is enough to show that his ability for logical reasoning is seriously impaired.

No mention is made of the enormous benefits that the Russian domination brought to its former satellites and to the capital flight and continual subsidizing of the "metropoly" to the "colonies". If other colonial powers drained the colonies of resources and finances, in Imperial Russia it was completely otherwise. As soon as the countries gained independence, most of them collapsed into the ruin of poverty, illeteracy, and corrupted administration. Those who didn't - like Ukraine, Belarus, and Baltic States - enjoyed billion dollars of Russian subsidies each year. In short, NPOVing is needed. --Ghirla | talk 15:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

• Wi should remind, on the other hand, that Russia and Soviet Union have benefited of natural resources in colonial territories. Very different is the case of Italy, that invested great amounts of capital in its colonies without any return.--Deguef (talk) 08:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Not really. I am a postcolonialism student. What you have just written is the typical narrative of a russophile historian. Origin of phrase is irrelevant; most terms to describe colonial practices were created after 1950. Ghirla, where did the wealth for these so-called subsidies come from? You need to source your information if you are to launch any sort of credible criticism.

• Postcolonial studies is not a POV. Until you find academic sources for your rebuttal, the NPOV tag is being removed. For sourcework surrounding reciprocity, see source: Subtelny.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakym (talk • contribs)

First of all, much of the article's content relates to Russification, a valid topic in itself, but a different thing from colonialism. The view that Ukraine was indeed a "colony" rather than the province of Russia is highly unorthodox and needs to be presented in an atributed form as an opinion of the specific scholar (or scholarship). Finally, removal of the explained POV tag is generally frown upon and, if not always WP:Vandalism borders it in any case. As per above, I will restore the tag. --Irpen 03:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, go on. The relations between "Great Russia" and "Lesser Russia" within Russian Empire were not unlike relations between England and Scotland within United Kingdom. Yakim, you don't think that Scotland is a colony, do you? Obviously, you need to revise the standard of your sources. --Ghirla | talk 08:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello, your comparison with Ireland is incorrect. Ireland was a colony indeed. Relations between Greater Russia and Lesser Russia are, on the other hand, closer to those between England and Scotland: used to have a common language, centuries of common history and religion, closely related ethnically. --Ghirla | talk 07:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback, Irpen. I will change the article to denote the difference of conventions of study. Note - many Russian historians (et al) shortly after 1900, including Lenin, referred to Ukraine and other regions as colonies of Imperial Russia. Until the early 1930s, there were many communist historians (ie Volobuev) who held similar lines, but were victims of the purge. The topic reemerged in the 1950-60s, but not within the USSR herself (Walter Kolarz). The postcolonial perspective on Ukraine and other parts of imperial Russia has been applied more actively since 1991, especially in the Baltic states and Ukraine, which I have noted in the talk:Kiev section. In Ukraine, colonial/postcolonial history has become part of history curricula (and verified in Catherine Wanner's anthropology book, Burden of Dreams). I will change the article to reflect this when I can access the Wanner book to properly cite all needed information. I also agree, much of the article covers Russification, but Russification is not an isolated policy; it does assist in achieving political goals (unity) and economic goals. Likewise, I will make necessary changes to denote this more clearly. --Yakym 23:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

As for the factual accuracy of the article, every fact in the article is sourced. Notice I do not refer to Scotland in the article, but to Ireland - as Ghirla incorrectly notes. Ghirla, you are the one needing to revise the (embarrassing) standards of your sources. Based on this, the factual tag is removed. --Yakym 23:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The policies of the Greater Russia towards Ukraine were indeed assimilationist and directed towards achieving and securing the concept of "united and indivisible Rus'". This, however, has nothing to to with colonialist policies whose primary goal is the pure economical exploitation and achieving the unity and uniformity between the metropoly and the colony is not ever in the picture. While to some extent, the colonialism concept may apply to Russian policies in Asia (better ask the specialist), Ukraine and Belarus were totally integrated in the empire or, at least, every attempt was made to integrate them. During the Russian industrial revolution, Ukrainian economy, as well as the Belarusian one, boomed as much as in the rest of the empire. Kiev boomed amazingly and became the third most important city of the empire by the end of the 19th century in whose beginning it was a sleepy and obscure town, a status at which it ever remained since its demise by Mongols and through centuries of Polish domination. Those times were indeed the times of "colonization" of Ukraine (by Poland) and this exact term is used by Britannica (see talk:History of Kiev for a quote).

There may have been some "exploitation" of imperial provinces by the imperial capital, but this is the eternal Russian problem and Ukrainian guberniyas were "exploited" in this respect no more than the provinces in the Russia itself. --Irpen 08:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Inline citations have been added for proof of economic exploitation, which should satisfy the requirements for the removal of the original research tag. As for the NPOV perhaps this article should be renamed Russian Colonialism in Ukraine and limited to this scope only?--Yakym (talk) 17:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Russian Colonialism

Russian Colonialism-term used in history to specific conditions and actions of Russian Empire that are similiar in form to colonialism in different parts of the world. Article should be improved, deletion isn't right for widely used term. Russian Identity, Nationalism, Colonialism and Postcolonialism Ewa M. Thompson, Professor of Slavic Studies, Rice University http://www.postcolonialweb.org/poldiscourse/ewt/1.html

I shall try to expand article. My country suffered from Russian Colonialism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TomLis (talk • contribs) 16:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

All right, I will wait a week, as you requested before submitting it for deletion. --Irpen 17:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

What about other regions?

This article seems to be centered solely upon Ukraine (with little accuracy). How about the conditions in other parts of the Russian Empire? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.97.122 (talk) 21:44, 19 January 2012 (UTC)