Talk:Marriage in the Catholic Church

The very problematic chapter "History of marriage in the Catholic church"

"Paul had suggested that marriage be used only as a last resort by those Christians that found it too difficult to remain chaste.[4]". what ABOSS As far as I know the only reliable source for what Paul suggested and not is his epistles in the Bible; and he states "Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am [i.e celibate], but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another". Marriage is [accorgin to him] therfore not a "last resort"; it's the lesser good of two good alternatives. The source for this unfounded claim is "Karen Armstrong", a member of the Bible Seminar, a group that for some peculiar reason knows the Bible better than those who wrote it.

Jerome wrote: "It is not disparaging wedlock to prefer virginity. No one can make a comparison between two things if one is good and the other evil" (Letter 22).

In this quote he seems to contradict himself: is marriage good or not? What he actually states is "I do not detract from wedlock when I set virginity before it. No one compares a bad thing with a good." (Letter 22:19) He clearly states that both are good alternatives! WHat a boss Tertullian argued that marriage "consists essentially in fornication" (An Exhortation to Chastity")

This is the worst one! First of all we can ask if Tertullians ideas says anything about catholicism when he was not orthodox/catholic, he was a montanist. I don't find the literal quote in the text (maybe it's just an other translation) but I find the subject and the word "fornication" in chapter 9 in "An Exhortation to Chastity". There he states "Second marriage will have to be termed no other than a species of fornication". This is nothing else than forgery!

Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage said that the first commandment given to men was to increase and multiply, but now that the earth was full there was no need to continue this process of multiplication.

Source?

Augustine was clear that if everybody stopped marrying and having children that would be an admirable thing; it would mean that the Kingdom of God would return all the sooner and the world would come to an end.

Soure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.230.159.65 (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

With regards to Paul, we have the following from Corinthians:

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Hardly a ringing endorsement either for marriage or for sexual contact of any kind? We must avoid being anachronistic here and understand the context - the early Christians urgently believed the end of the world was imminent; any "earthly" ties were to be avoided.

Interesting point about the Bible Seminar though - would be good if we could get hold of someone around today who wrote the Bible to give us their view. Contaldo80 (talk) 10:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Picture

It seems odd to me that there is no picture of a modern Catholic marriage which is different (and looks very different) from one in 1445. Does anyone have a modern photograph that could be used? I hope I did this right his my first comment on a talk page. Redtizzy 01:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"legitimacy" of children

I am going to rephrase "(although their children may still be considered to be legitimate)" to "(the children are in all cases considered legitimate, as there is no concept of "illegitimacy" in Catholic theology of Canon Law.)"

Unless someone can cite something to the contrary, of course.Zerobot 22:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

dead link

The last link provided seems to be dead. Could someone please confirm and delete it ?

www.annulmentfaq.com -- Annulment guide (Catholic Annulments)

BTW, is the priest the celebrant, or are the husband and wife ?

• The ministers of the sacrament of marriage are husband and wife. If either is Catholic and the marriage is not performed before the representative of the bishop (in most cases, a priest), the marriage is invalid as to form. -Binky 05:48, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is not completly true, the minister of the sacrament in the Eastern Catholic Churches (which are in communion with the Roman Church) is the priest.

Cjrs 79

I thought in CCEO the minister is the couple, but the priest gives the nuptual blessing which is requried for validity. DaveTroy 4 Dec

• See "The Physical Signs of the Sacrament"

invalid vs. illicit

• An illicit marriage is one which was forbidden but was nonetheless took place, and it would not be annulled on that basis (illicit marriages are not invalid marriages). An invalid marriage can be annulled. A marriage involving at least one Catholic which is invalid as to form is annullable on that basis: it's invalid, not just illicit. - Binky 05:55, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Disparity of Cult

The definition of "disparity of cult" is not between a Catholic and non-Catholic, but rather between a Catholic and a non-baptized person. If the subjects are a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic Christian the proper term is simply mixed marriage (ref: para 1633 Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Impediments to get married

Note that vows of chastity of celibacy do not make a marriage invavlid. Before the new canon law revision, religious people that made solemn vows (which were "stronger in some sense" to perpetual vows) that tried to get married, those marriages were null and void, but now there is no real distinction between solemn and perpetual vows, some orders and congregations do keep the distinction but it's made more specific in their respective constitutions. I do not know if the distinction still exists for the marriage to be vaild.

Something else, in the "Catholic" Church, meaning Roman Catholic the ministers of the marriage are the spouses who have to follow canonical form for the marriage to be valid, but in the Eastern Catholic Church there has to be a priest present and the priest is the actual minister of the marriage.

Impediments, like cousins, etc, can be "overturned" by the Ordinary of the diocese where the spouses live, or where they intend to live. (The Ordinary in Catholic theology and law is the person with jurisdiction in a certain place or over certain people. In general it relates to Bishops, but Religious Superiors are Ordinaries of their institutes)

Cjrs 79 04:16, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Public perpetual vow of chasity in a religous congregation (solemn or simple) is an impediment to marriage. Relations in the direct line and 2nd degree are always infallible. I think 3rd degree (1st cousins) can be dispensed. Also antecedent and perpetual impotence, habitual lack of reason, age, crime, public scandal are also impediments. DaveTroy 14 Dec 2005

Ordinary 1st cousins (no identical twins involved) are 4th degree of consanguinity. Infitada (talk) 20:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Any expert?

I know a bit about the subject, and i was thinking about taking this artile a a project and expanding it, but i want to see if there's anyone out there who can help or has ideas on how to expand it. I was thinking about a section on the RCC views on other marriages, etc.

Cjrs 79

Children

Is it ever possible for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic and the two parties NOT agree to raise the children as catholic, and the marriage still be recognized as valid by the Catholic church?--64.111.138.23 8 July:59 (UTC)

Off hand, I would say yes, so long as there is not an intention against children, which would make the marriage invalid. On the other hand, why would you promise something you don't intend to do?DaveTroy 21:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

You are suposed to agree before the wedding if you will raise your children Catholic. You can get married (I believe) if you decide not to, but you are severely looked down upon, as not doing so is a mortal sin (the gravest group of offenses/sins in the Catholic Church).--Veghead13 00:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The Catholic part must (necessarily) promise to do his best in raising the children as Catholic. That doesn't seem to lead necessarily to both of the parents deciding for raising in Catholicim. However, even if they are raised Protestant I think the Catholic part should do his best to (1) explain his Catholicim and (2) have the Catholic direction preferred where Protestantism is undecided - but that's just my thinking. --77.4.66.158 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Legal Status of Non-Catholic Marriages

Does the church acknowledge the legal existence of non-Catholic marriages in any way? For example, are Catholics who have been married outside of the church considered to be living in sin? Are all non-Catholic married people in the world guilty of fornication? If a married couple who is not Catholic converts to Catholicism, are they considered unmarried until they remarry in the church? Rhesusman 21:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Catholicism distiguishes between marriage (civil) and sacramental marriage, as of the 1983 Code. Under the 1983 Code, marriages between 2 people who are free to marry, who are baptized Christians, and neither are Catholic, they are in a sacramental marriage (we presume); the church does, however, recognize all civil aspects of marriage normally (esp as to children)whether or not the couple is Christian as most civil law pertains to the State. If a non Catholic couple validly marries, and then they convert, there is no need for a convalidiation -- prior to conversion they were not subject to merely ecclesial law. The issues arise when a couple contradicts a Divine Positive law (ie man and woman, potency, etc) or Divine Natural Law which bind all people whether or not they are baptized by the nature of the lawgiver -- God. DaveTroy 14 Dec 2005

As far as I know, the previous marriage of converters is considered valid as long as they receive a blessing from their Bishop through a priest or in person.--Veghead13 00:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus --liquidGhoul 00:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Catholic marriage → Roman Catholic views of marriage – In keeping with the name of the main article page (Roman Catholic Church), this article refers specifically to that denomination and not to churches in the Catholic tradition generally. The proposed renaming is also in line with Christian views of marriage. Fishhead64 00:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support per nom. Fishhead64 00:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
• Suport per nom. — Gareth Hughes 11:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
• Alternate rename to Marriage in canon law. Gimmetrow 17:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose -SynKobiety 01:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I have a friend who is a Ukrainian Catholic Priest. He tells me that the Orthodox use the terms "uniate" and "Roman" as a slur to imply being traitors to the East. They would never call themselves "Roman Catholic," but members of the Catholic Church. It seems that Wikipedia honors self identification--and therefore should in this case as with others. Also, "Marriage in canon law" is very ambiguous. There is not a single canon law but many. Which system of canon law makes all the difference. This is even more true in these times as ideas of marriage are changing. Catholic Canon Law of Marriage could and maybe should be its own article as the subject is very comples and truly unique to the Catholic Church. This really needs to be discussed by people who understand canon law in the Catholic Church, I would think. --Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra 05:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Moving it to match other articles is a good idea. —Mira 18:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose This move is in direct violation of WP naming conventions and policies. For a thorough discussion of this and other related naming issues based entirely on WP policies, please see: CC vs. RCC --Vaquero100 16:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose The article includes Eastern Catholics as well as Western Catholics, and since "Roman Catholic" refers to Western Catholics, it's too narrow. Cheyinka 20:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment If the article is intended to have an inclusive definition of Catholic, that is fine. If that is the case, I assume one can then incorporate information from other denominations in the Catholic tradition. Fishhead64 07:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose --WikiCats 07:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support However, have another article that can be accessed from this one that would include the other Catholic denominations, even though, for them to still be considered Catholic, they would have to be quite close in doctorine, and as such the policies should be almost identical. Veghead13 03:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)Veghead13

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• I strongly oppose name with "views" - that would encompass theology (marriage as a symbol) rather than laws. Gimmetrow 17:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment — whose canon law are talking about? This is article is 100% about marriage legally and theologically within the framework of the Roman Catholic Church. — Gareth Hughes 18:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
    • The typical reader would understand "canon law" without modification to refer to the Romans, as that is how it is used predominantly. If I want to refer to something else, I say "Eastern canon law" or "Anglican canon law". For instance, in the Britannica article on "canon law" all unmodified uses of the term are either Roman, historical (pre-1500), or abstract (the idea of church law). This is similar to why "Church of England" is not ambigous - unmodified uses of that term refer predominantly to one entity, although many other entities use a similar phrase or identical phrase with a modifier, such as the "Evangelical Lutheran Church of England" and the "Old Catholic Church of England." Gimmetrow 19:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Canon law is the body of law regulating a religious institution. We have an article on canon law (Catholic Church), because no one church can say it has the original canon law: what would be the point? — Gareth Hughes 20:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
        • That other article is a content fork, I don't think it should exist. Britannica has a single article on canon law, and Wiki doesn't really have any more extensive content on this topic yet. If it were developed, I could imagine a History of canon law article. Gimmetrow 21:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

conditions for valid marriage.

I deleted and re wrote this to include only the essencials. I believe this accurately reflects the canons on marriage. It is worth noting that a liturgical act is not required for validity, only licity. However, CANONICAL FORM (which is a different concept) is required for validity.DaveTroy 17:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

2 document added

Under conditions for valid marriage, I added the two decrees that most affect current marriage law, outside the CIC/83 itself. Should either be linked internatlly? If so, would someone who knows how do it? Thanks!!!

pls correct my intext citation?

Hey Ya'll

For what ever reason, my mouse (apple) doesn't seem to like WIKIbuttons. I put in the citation, and corrections, for ratfied, non consumated marriages into the text. If someone could correct it from INTEXT to FOOTNOTE I'd be most grateful.

DaveTroy (talk) 16:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Natural marriage

There ought to be a stub on the canon law term of natural marriage, which is the lawful non-Christian union of one man and one woman. The opposite term is sacramental marriage, which is what any lawful marriage between a man and woman who have received a trinitarian baptism. [1] ADM (talk) 11:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The terminology is a bit complicated, especially when trying to determine the legal status status of Newt Gingrich's marriage, who only formally entered the Catholic Church during his thirs marriage. According to canon law, a Protestant baptism is equally valid to a Catholic baptism because it is Trinitarian. A Protestant marriage is also an equally valid sacramental marriage because both members are validly baptized. Therefore, according to canon law, Newt has been Catholic since he was first baptized and his first marriage should be considered a Catholic marriage. Therefore, his two successive marriages are invalid in the eyes of the Church and Newt cannot approach communion, since his current marriage is similar to a form of adultery.

Newt Gingrich's marriage is of no relevance to this article so not sure why he has been cited? Contaldo80 (talk) 17:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Definition of Marriage

I was unable to find a source for the definition of marriage at the beginning of this article; therefore, I gave the definition found in Canon Law and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.102.198.191 (talk) 05:47, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Marriage of catholics to non-catholics

I think we should spend some time in this article setting out the current rules and the evolution of practice over the centuries. Does anyone have any thoughts? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

"a Christian man could have a concubine"

The article previously stated:

The Council of Toledo in 397 affirmed that a Christian man could have a concubine or a wife but not both at the same time.

Looking into it, the council did indeed decree "is qui non habet uxorem, et pro uxore concubinam habet, a communione non repellatur" (§17, meaning he who does not have an "uxor", but has a "concubina" in place of one, shall not be turned away from communion). Given that one often translates uxor as "wife" and concubina as "concubine", this might seem to support the statement from the article.

However this is completely incorrect, and based on a misunderstanding of the Roman Empire's marriage institutions (or of the historical evolution of the terms uxor and concubina). In Ancient Rome, a woman could not be an uxor unless she and the man were of equivalent social standing; if this were not the case, she would be a concubina. There were concubinae in monogamous and loving relationships who were in essence what today we would call wives.

From a Catholic perspective, the old uxor/concubina distinction was irrelevant--both were wives, if the relationship met the criteria for a Christian understanding of marriage. So the council here is saying that whether an uxor or a concubina "in place of an uxor", monogamy is the rule. It is certainly not saying that concubinage, in the later sense of the term, is permitted, rather the language was still at the point of evolving in 397 from a Roman Imperial notion of matrimony to a Catholic one. Therefore I have removed the sentence from the article as it is factually inaccurate and quite misleading. On the other hand I do not think a correct reading of the council's decree says anything noteworthy enough to merit inclusion. --194.98.58.121 (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2012 (UTC)