Talk:Workers' Youth League (Norway)

Notes on the massacre

I admittedly seemed angry when I undid the Texas IP's revision who was basically justifying the shooter. But we certainly can't go to the point of removing everything that's "politicized", otherwise we wouldn't understand much of it! It's an article about a left-wing youth movement, so it would be preposterous not to say that when its meeting was attacked, the shooter was motivated by far-right purposes. 82.240.207.81 (talk) 00:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Minimum Age

What has happened is awful and has shocked me deeply, and there is something else that is worrying me, and I would hope someone can put the answer in this article: what is the minimum age for this organisation? There is talk in the international media that there was an 11 year old at Utøya, and that there were 13 year olds killed. If this is true, then any real democracy knows there is something disturbingly Orwellian about having such young kids, below voting age, at a ruling party's political youth league camp - and that this must have contributed to putting them in harm's way. Harsimaja (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I assume you are American since 1) you didn't know such organization could exist 2) you look for answers to your questions on Wikipedia (arguably a place for finding missing facts, but not learning... more valuable is a research with keywords like youth politics or youth political organizations and read expert litterature on that)

Anyway, the first and obvious difference with the Nazis is that nobody is forced to enrol. In the US, Teenage Republicans and Young Democrats of America High School Caucus do exist, but given the popular reactions I've read from the US, they are probably near to unknown, or despised. In Britain however, Conservative Future has a history that stems from the early 20th century. In Europe, and particularly Scandinavia, there is a youth counterpart for each and every political party. And given that there are a lot of them, party competitiveness is much higher than in the US, so appealing to the youth is decisive. (in comparison, dems and reps take 2 and 1 third each and that's it).

In a nutshell:

• Members of YO help their party campaign
• They have a permanent say, through the use of Summer universities, like the yearly there is on Utøya, where they can discuss with the heads of the party (unless...)
• The YO are often among those who choose who gets party leadership, like last year in Britain
• The YO is the easiest path to a political career, because gaining power in a YO full of other ambitious people serves as a diploma for political (& oratory) skills. The current Norway PM was AUF leader at 31, Minister at 33.
• They help form networks, which is essential for a party's luck
• Last but not least, they introduce people to democracy by fueling debates within Universities, where the different YO have an office (debate being anointed in Scandinavia).

82.240.207.81 (talk) 03:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm an American? Never even be to that wonderful country, I'm afraid (note I used British spelling - and in fact I was born with secondary Norwegian citizenship). In that case, you must be French: you gave an automatic anti-American rant for absolutely no reason. Seriously though: I meant no offence, as I think was quite clear, and I expect more courtesy from someone so anxious to lecture. Unlike your response, my paragraph was not rude, merely concerned and inquiring, and I do not appreciate rants in bad faith: first and second rules of debating (important except for the more vicious career politician): never put words into people's mouths, and never pick an ad hominem fight. I never made any cliché comparison with the Nazis. This Youth League's predecessor used to be officially Communist, so if I wanted to rant unreasonably there would be some better unfair analogues... I did refer to Orwell, who was himself a Socialist, but had International, not National, Socialist dictators in mind in his books.

I resorted to Wikipedia late: I understand some Norwegian, and looked at the organisation's website first, but could not find the information I sought. I do not subscribe to political blogs (which are far more inaccurate and full of rants), and perhaps unlike you have no copious amount of knowledge about youth leagues' inner workings (forgive me, of course everyone ought to), so I used this in frustration. Though not involved with politics myself I have had to deal with a particular officially Communist youth league far worse than any in Western Europe - but I cannot but find it odd that in even in a perhaps naive democracy like Norway's children can be members: even the one I just mentioned is only for over-18 year olds. I agree this awful practice of both indoctrination and corrupting the minds of the (extremely) young with career politics of whatever ideology may be more widespread than I thought, though I have been aware of Britain's, America's, and other countries' Youth Leagues for some time.

It does not matter that they are not forced - I never dreamt they were - but the Norwegian government has something of an unjust hold over the state media, far from the BBC's relative neutrality (I find the bias and what failed attempts at political correctness there excruciating - does the NRK still report election results as 'Socialist vs. Non-Socialist'?), and I think there is something rather worrying about bringing people into a political party when they are legally deemed unable to vote, and should still be making up their minds without (even voluntary) indoctrination. I have now heard one victim was 14, which is sickening first for obvious reasons, but it is still a little worrying that he was there at all.

By the way, the Democrats and Republicans both do have youth 'wings', but members must be of voting age.

The only reason Wikipedia is not as perfect as you may like (at least in political and controversial issues) is because of those unbalanced, unreasonable contributors who rant, often with unwarranted personal attacks - though there is at least more of a moderating effect. Not only is it more balanced than Behring's evil rant of a document, I imagine it's more balanced than the material distributed by this youth league - which is party political - and this is the point - and I WAS looking for a simple missing fact. I do not intend to 'learn' about this deeply, or do a long depressing university course in youth politics - the student politicians I bump in to are annoying enough. Harsimaja (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

A matter of fact is that, just between the moment I read your question and the moment I typed my answer, I came across a quote of some far-right American radio celebrity, about the shooting. I couldn't help thinking of a common link. I ended up answering the prejudiced pundit and didn't even looked for the "I would"s and the adverbs put at the end of your question, let alone the different nature of the inquiry. I wish the idea that I actually doubted you were American can put you at rest on that point.

In France the membership age must be at 15, perhaps 14. Norway seeming naive, it is very possible that the youngest killed were simply attendants but not members. Since you know bits of Norwegian, you could ask on a Norwegian website, a forum or wikipedia, the requirements of the law. I am not an expert on herd instincts, so my knowledge of youth organizations is limited. But I tend to dismiss the idea they are more manipulating than the media to other people. In France, they are more gatherings of young who have time to lose and who are already persuaded they're on the right way. Their willpower is then used as workforce for sticking posters, distributing leaflets.

As for Norway, manipulation might be less useful, since most governements are coalitions. Also, I am surprised by the widespread use of 'camp', that makes me think first of bootcamps - not perhaps for a native speaker - when describing this annual meeting - still a camp. Slate describes it as "Debates, lectures, and regular summer camp stuff.", like sports activities, between teenagers from 14 to 25.

At the end of the day, I can't fake knowledge, so the last word comes down to someone who knows the country. 82.240.207.81 (talk) 17:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the link, which has confirmed that 14 year olds are included. Of course this should not be illegal, but I strongly stick with the not unheard-of view that childhood should be free from all party politics.

Indeed, as a native speaker, I find the word 'camp' can be positive or negative according to context (from 'happy camp' to 'death camp'). It's just the Old French for the modern 'champ', after all. Harsimaja (talk) 21:33, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I must admit I still don't understand why you think a blogger on Slate or a Norwegian political site carries more weight than Wikipedia: is this true learning either? If you glean correct facts from it, I suppose it is, but I might warn you it may not be much more reliable, especially without any moderation from other people. For example, the author pursues the idea of Breivik considering himself a Christian martyr because he considers himself a 'cultural Christian' and a 'crusader' - but he used the first term precisely to emphasise the fact he is NOT a religious Christian, and also states this explicitly in his manifesto. He uses the second term in the general sense of 'warrior for a cause'. Apparently he even jeered that he was 'God' to the victims, so he certainly did not want to be a 'Christian martyr'. Harsimaja (talk) 21:33, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

My remark on Wikipedia wasn't relevant, since you are looking for a fact - which age - rather than be taught about youth organizations. Cause if you were, I'm not sure Wikipedia would have been as straight to the point (though pedantic) as me. You would have had to find all of (what's in my first message) this by yourself. Each solution has its drawbacks, but it seems that everyone has given up learning physics with Wikipedia. 82.240.207.81 (talk) 23:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Conflict-of-interest editing

Toresbe (talk · contribs) has been requested to exercise due caution in light of the fact that he has declared himself closely associated with this subject. Recent edits by Toresbe and attempts to address the situation on his user talk page have been futile, so I have filed a report at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Workers' Youth League (Norway)‎‎. __meco (talk) 18:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

They haven't been futile; I've told you to look at any one of the previous COI allegations on my talk page. Please learn how the COI rules work before accusing people of having COIs. I'm getting pretty frustrated. toresbe (talk) 08:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Members list

I agree with User:Toresbe that a list of members of AUF is not needed. Such a list would have include thousands of people, be impossible to maintain and is thus POV. Please do not re-add such content. A listing of leaders and their deputies is acceptable because of their role within the organization at question. If folks want to work on this article, the history section would most probably be a good place to divulge. Arsenikk ^(talk) 21:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

And please do not add links to people on other languages of Wikipedia. If the people are notable, make a red link and consider making an article on them. If they are not notable, they probably shouldn't be in an article of this scope anyway. Arsenikk ^(talk) 21:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Heroical leaders in AUF during the Utøya massacre

Are there any AUF members that rank higher than Tonje Brenna, who have been portrayed as heroes, for their actions during the Utøya massacre?

I have added this text, to this [1] version of the article: "Tonje Brenna (General Secretary of AUF and member of the county council of Akershus, representing Ullensaker, who chose not to swim away from the Utøya massacre because she knew that at least one of the wounded would not be able to swim with her, and that [other] individuals might put themselves in more danger by starting to swim, simply because they saw the General Secretary swimming. Klassekampen wrote about her during the trial of Anders Behring Breivik in 2012, that her court testimony "is strong, not only due to her calm in the midst of chaos, but how she with few sentences describes how she fetches strength thru reciprocal exchange of confidence with others. At a given, hopeless point in time—her only faith was to pretend that there was hope. That probably saved the lives of some of those who were in the closest proximity."; [On] "decisive points she was able to act as if she could continue to live, in spite of seeing the mouth of the weapon (våpenmunningen) few meters above herself"."

--No parking here (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)