Talk:Reformation (disambiguation)

this is a bad ste you will nothing find here

February 2002

Please, someone have a look here, i don't feel like fucking you right know but competent to add anything, and redirect to protestant reformation i guess isn't enough!. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Szopen (talk • contribs) 16:43, February 25, 20023510rover six hut hut

July 2008

The disambiguation page should be at this article and not Reformation (disambiguation), because this is where the majority of links are pointing to. Please leave this page as a disambiguation page. Green Giant (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Links should not point to a dab page but straight to the target article. Abtract (talk) 13:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Making this not a disambiguation page

Please see the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation#Reformation about re-making this page a redirect to Protestant Reformation, and moving the disambiguation page to Reformation (disambiguation) -- Natalya 19:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

the reformation is a very important piece in history because it shows us different sides of how religion was descussed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.64.37 (talk) 19:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

No good idea - that is Euro-centric, and there may be other "Reformations" in other historical epochs, there might even be a starship in a C-rated scifi series with the name "the Reformation" (just an example). I think the Protestant Reformation is the topic that refers to all events in Europe around the 16th centuries, before and after, not just Herr Dr. M. Luther, who was most significant, but definitely not alone. It would be better to rewrite the text on the disambig to refer to all events, not just Luther, and rework the Protestant Reformation to deal with Leo X:es economical decisions, Luthers inflamed tries to evoke debate, and the subsequent schism, chaos, peasant wars, schmakaldic wars, thirty year wars and this-that-whatever. As much as I'm concerned, Kung Fu Tse made an important reformation in China more than 1500 years earlier. Said: Rursus (☻) 14:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

"Protestant Reformation" Should Not Be the Primary Topic

As can be seen on the disambiguation page, there have been several other significant Reformations throughout history that were just as important, if not more important, than the Protestant Reformation. "Protestant Reformation" should not be the primary topic, and so the pages "The Reformation" and "Reformation" should redirect to the disambiguation page, not to "Protestant Reformation". Wikitam331 (talk) 14:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for posting this, finally. This should be discussed, and a consensus should be reached before The Reformation and Reformation redirect here. StAnselm (talk) 22:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

• Reformations → Reformation
• Reformation → Reformations
• It makes no sense that "Reformations" is the disambiguation page. This is because the article title "Reformations" implies that every article on the disambiguation page refers to a Reformation, which is not the case. For example, the Music section does not have any "Reformations" listed; rather, it has albums and bands listed. The content of "Reformations" should be moved to "Reformation", and "Reformations" should redirect to it. Current article naming conventions are not consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions for disambiguation pages. The proposed change will cause the disambiguation page to be consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions. Wikitam331 (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
• Move Reformations to Reformation (disambiguation) and leave Reformation as a redirect to Protestant Reformation. Protestant Reformation is, I believe, the primary topic for Reformation - for one thing, there are a lot of incoming links to the redirect. But I agree that "Reformations" is an awkward title for the disambiguation page, since most of the entries are in the singular. StAnselm (talk) 23:28, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the number of incoming links to a redirect isn't a strong enough of an argument to prevent the disambiguation page from having the proper title. 12.165.27.130 (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose move of Reformation: it should continue as a redirect to Protestant Reformation. A Google search confirms that this is the primary meaning. Support move of this dab page to something sensible, e.g. StAnselm's suggestion. -- 202.124.73.99 (talk) 10:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The fact that Protestant Reformation is the primary meaning is also supported by the fact that the "Reformation in Country X" articles all mean "Protestant Reformation in Country X." -- 202.124.73.99 (talk) 11:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• That is not true. "Reformation in England", for example, yields English Reformation; "Reformation in Scotland" yields Scottish Reformation, and so on for "Reformation in Sweden", "Reformation in Switzerland" , "Reformation in Denmark–Norway and Holstein", and "Reformation in Iceland". Also, I disagree with your opinion that a Google search confirms that it is the primary meaning. A Google search yields three English Reformation results and a fashion clothing brand in the top ten results. It's clear that "Reformation" usually refers to either the Protestant Reformation or the English Reformation, which means Protestant Reformation is not the primary topic. 12.165.27.130 (talk) 13:39, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, you realise, don't you, that the English Reformation is part of the Protestant Reformation? So the latter is still the primary topic per WP:DABCONCEPT. StAnselm (talk) 13:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Same for Scottish Reformation and so forth -- all part of the Protestant Reformation. -- 202.124.73.147 (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, since Wikipedia search is not case-sensitive, users searching for "reformation" are not looking for Reformation (with a capital 'R') but are more than likely looking for reformation, which is the primary definition of "reformation" in any legal Dictionary. Which is more evidence that "Protestant Reformation" is not the primary topic of a search for "reformation". 12.165.27.130 (talk) 13:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I doubt that. The Protestant Reformation article got 272,015 views in the past 90 days. Rectification (law) only got 3,618. Reformation (law), which redirects to Rectification (law), only got 40 hits. Reformation, which redirects to Protestant Reformation, got 26,860. Even if half the readers of Rectification (law) came via "reformation," which I strongly doubt, that's still 93% of people searching "reformation" wanting Protestant Reformation. Protestant Reformation is the primary topic. -- 202.124.73.147 (talk) 14:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

"Reformation" with a capital 'R' is completely different from "reformation" with a lower-case 'r', the former of which is a proper noun, and the latter of which is a common noun and has absolutely nothing to do with the Protestant Reformation. By citing the number of page views for Protestant Reformation, you are mistakenly assuming that people searching for both "Reformation" and "reformation" are looking for Protestant Reformation. The reason Protestant Reformation has that many hits is because it is the primary topic, and has been the primary topic for many years. If, for example, Reformation (law) was the primary topic, it would get as many hits as Protestant Reformation did by people searching for "Reformation", "reformation", and "reformation (law)", regardless of what they are actually intending to search for. I disagree that Protestant Reformation is the primary topic. 12.165.27.130 (talk) 17:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason Protestant Reformation has that many hits is that it's a major event in history. 272,015 finish up at Protestant Reformation (in the past 90 days), while only 3,618 finish up at Rectification (law), which is a very minor topic in comparison. -- 202.124.72.213 (talk) 01:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Total hits for Reformation are more than seven times as large as for Rectification (law), which proves that the overwhelming number of people searching for "Reformation" are not searching for the legal term -- because they don't finish up at the legal term. What are they searching for? For Protestant Reformation, obviously, which gets 75 times as many hits as the legal term. -- 202.124.73.35 (talk) 03:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Reformation should remain as a redirect to Protestant Reformation, as it is pretty clearly the primary topic for the term regardless of capitalization. The disambiguation page be moved to Reformation (disambiguation). older ≠ wiser 17:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• It is reasonable to assume that a search for "The Reformation" would be somebody looking for Protestant Reformation, so I believe that Protestant Reformation should certainly be the primary topic for The Reformation. Moving the disambiguation page to Reformation would solve both the capitalization concerns as well as the primary topic concerns for "Reformation" and "reformation" searches. The best solution would be to leave Protestant Reformation as the primary topic for The Reformation and to move the disambiguation page to Reformation. Wikitam331 (talk) 17:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support; the disambiguation page should be at the singular title. "Reformation" alone, without the definite article, cannot be held to be unambiguous. Powers ^T 18:17, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The ambiguity is best handled by the current system of (1) redirecting Reformation to Protestant Reformation, and (2) placing a hatnote there to catch the relatively small number who were interested in something else, and sending them here. -- 202.124.73.35 (talk) 03:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, as StAnselm points out, changing this would mess up a huge number of incoming links, which link to Reformation with the intended meaning of Protestant Reformation (and they do this because the literature doesn't normally have the prefix "Protestant"). -- 202.124.73.35 (talk) 03:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

And as user 12.165.27.130 pointed out, the number of incoming links is a weak argument for preventing proper redirections from being set up. Wikipedia is continuously being changed and made better. If everbody in the Wikipedia community made the argument that improvements shouldn't be made because it's too much of a hassle, then nothing would get done and Wikipedia would become static. We don't want that. 76.125.166.228 (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

But it wouldn't be an improvement. The large number of incoming links reflects the fact that "Reformation" in ordinary usage almost always means the Protestant Reformation. -- 202.124.73.182 (talk) 04:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Most of the incoming links use the term "the Reformation" with both the definite article and the proper noun usage. They do not use "reformation" without a definite article or a proper noun to describe the Protestant Reformation because they are completely different things. 76.125.166.228 (talk) 06:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

"Reformation" without a definite article almost always refers to the Protestant Reformation too (generally as an adjective). Without a capital letter, properly speaking it doesn't, but most searches for "reformation" are indeed looking for "Reformation." -- 202.124.72.134 (talk) 06:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support; Users Wikitam331 and Powers make the case for why Protestant Reformation is the primary topic for The Reformation but not for Reformation. The disambiguation page should be moved to Reformation and Reformations should redirect to it. 12.165.27.130 (talk) 18:33, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The primary encyclopaedic topic for "reformation" would be the Protestant one. The word reformation doesn't belong here at all (it belongs at Wiktionary), so we actually need only worry about what encyclopaedia-worthy reformations or things-called-reformations could vie for primacy. Srnec (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

But there are Wikipedia articles about "reformation" in the common noun sense, such as Reformation (law). Whether that page (and other Wikipedia pages that use "reformation" in the common noun sense) should exist on Wikipedia or Wikitionary is a completely unrelated topic. If you wish to delete them, you should discuss it on their respective Talk pages. 76.125.166.228 (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no article at reformation (law); it is a redirect. Even so, it is a technical usage and not the "common noun sense". Srnec (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The redirect implies ambiguity: reformation (law) is the same as rectification (law). All English Dictionary definitions for "reformation" clearly indicate that "Reformation" with a capital 'R' refers to the Protestant Reformation, while other definitions use a lower case 'r'. 76.125.166.228 (talk) 06:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. "Reformation" should be the disambiguation page, and "Reformations" and "Reformation (disambiguation)" should redirect to it. "The Reformation" should continue to redirect to Protestant Reformation, as it is clear that the definite article implies a search for Protestant Reformation. Without the definite article, "Reformation" is not ambiguous in the same way that "The Reformation" is. 76.125.166.228 (talk) 16:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
• Move Reformations to Reformation (disambiguation). Protestant Reformation is clearly the primary topic for Reformation. In addition to the page view stats above, all Google hits I found either related to the Protestant Reformation or something that doesn't have an article. TimBentley (talk) 18:08, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

There are plenty of Google hits for "Reformation" that yield results with the definite article in the title. 76.125.166.228 (talk) 06:18, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

You misunderstand -- TimBentley is referring to Wikipedia articles. All the top Google hits either relate to the Protestant Reformation, or to "Reformation" as a brand name for something without a Wikipedia article. Going by Google, Protestant Reformation is clearly the primary topic for Reformation (and going by Wikipedia views, the same is true). -- 202.124.72.134 (talk) 06:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)