Talk:The Australian

Removed section "In sections of the Canberra press gallery The Australian is nicknamed "The Government Gazette", due to its anti-Labor stance on key issues and the propensity for details of important government initiatives to miraculously appear on its front page, complete with direct quotes from ministers, before the announcements have been made." - definitely POV

The newspaper is outspoken in its support of action to improve the lot of Aboriginal Australians.[1]

The citation here is not an example of this assertion, as it is muddied by the more consistent Australian theme of criticism of Labor policy and behaviour (of course entirely appropriate in this case.) Find a better citation to support this assertion. The paper does claim to be outspoken in its support of action to improve the lot of Aboriginal Australians, but this is not a neutral POV. --Spamburgler 23:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Recurring dreams 04:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Influental

The Australian is described as an influential paper not because of how many people read it but because of who reads it - the political elite and the business class.[1]

Remove this section. Reference doesn't work, and for claims such as these I think we would need a third party citation rather than the paper itself. Recurring dreams 04:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Influential? Possibly so. A pretentious, self-important rag for Australia's third-rate aristocrats and Nouveau riche. ZwickauDeluxe 18:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution. Zaxios 14:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

POV

I put up a POV tag, as the article is extremely biased when it comes to any perceived political leanings of the paper. Cheers, Rothery 10:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed though I think there's more issues than just that. I've put the POV tag back up there. There needs to be a criticism section for starters, because this paper has definitely had its fair share - Drthatguy (talk) 11:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I think you need to be more specific. The political leanings section is supported by refs and is reasonably accurate. What is wrong, and why? I suppose I'd actually put the paper as more centrist to right, rather than right of centre, myself.Greglocock (talk) 11:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

An editor has removed the pov tag. i think this the right thing to do. if you have a pov concern then by all means tag the article but please detail the issue here.Greglocock (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Ownership

Excuse me, I'm not a wiki person, but shouldn't it be mentioned that Rupert Murdock owns this paper? It's odd that his name does not appear once on "The Australian" wiki 67.187.236.0 (talk) 06:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

It says it is owned by News Limited. Is that incorrect? Greglocock (talk) 11:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind reply Greglocock. I'm 67.187.236.0 and I just created a first-time account.

Why does the Wiki entry for the "New York Post" have this entry, "Since 1993, it has been owned by media mogul Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation..." and no such disclosure is made for "The Australian" published by News Limited?

Right now the fact that "The Australian" is owned by Rupert Murdock appears to be buried, IMHO.

Would it be a defacement if I noted that publisher News Limited is owned by Rupert Murdock? One advantage would be the creation of a direct Wiki link to Rupert Murdock instead of a couple of degrees of separation as it stands now... or would that be considered too much information for Wikipedia?Davemartin7777 (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

That rather depends. Does Rupert Murdoch own News Corp? I get the impression that he holds fewer than 50% of the shares and hence does not own it. However there is no doubt that he effectively controls Newscorp.Greglocock (talk) 05:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

"Government Gazette"

Regarding "The Australian's perceived Liberal-Conservative views have led some to nickname it 'The Government Gazette', especially among some journalists, including sections of the Canberra press gallery." First, this is plainly not NPOV. Second, the SMH article cited does not support the statement. (It says "Perhaps bloggers' repeated reference to the paper as The Government Gazette tweaked the editor on a bad day." There is no reference to the Canberra press gallery or the use of the nickname among journalists.) Third, the insulting nicknames given to The Australian are not of encyclopedic value. So I'm cutting the line. Zaxios 14:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

If there are no objections I'll remove the POV tag as well. Zaxios 14:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Mitchell considers the newspaper to be of the centre-right

Is that before or after they allowed a comparison to the mythological protector of the Chinese? The newspaper is obviously not comfortable with the government's foreign policy, and it should be stated as such for balance. Ottre (talk) 18:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Real Climate award

For some time the following has been included and removed repeatedly from the "Persuasion" section.

In 2008 the newspaper was named the 'Most Consistently Wrong Media Outlet' by the science blog Real Climate (Referenced at [2])

Earlier versions were much more POV and I tried to neutralize it. The question is, should it be included at all? It is a statement of fact - the blog did publish the "award" in 2008. The blog (as far as I can determine) is reasonably credible. The sentence could help to provide balance to the article (i.e. "criticism" as well as praise). I must admit I never liked the paragraph but, in fairness, I couldn't just delete it altogether. Any thoughts? Wikipeterproject (talk) 21:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree earlier versions were better. Without presenting context it seems to me that this is being given undue weight. Perhaps if there were a whole para on the paper's schizophrenic 'stance' on GCC, it would be enough to make this worth including. (That is some journos are believers and publish born-again articles, but the general weight of the articles is distinctly sceptical). I still struggle with using a blog as a ref. As a skeptic I'd actually proclaim that award as a sign of success. Greglocock (talk) 22:38, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

While RealClimate may not be as credible as a peer reviewed scientific journal, it is no less credible than The Australian, and significantly more credible on issues of science. RealClimate is by no means the only source that has criticised coverage by The Australian of global warming science and policy. Woood (talk) 02:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

So have any reliable sources criticised the paper's stance on climate change? THAT is the test. real climate is not an acknowledged authority on the media.Greglocock (talk) 10:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Persuasion

The persuasion section is particularly worrying to me, I don't disagree that it would be accurate to describe the paper as right leaning but the wording of the section seems overly loaded.Theworld2 (talk) 09:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's work on it. Look at The Melbourne Parish Magazine for comparison. Actually I think centre right is the wrong phrase, but that is what an editor said. I'd have said conservative, in its true sense. Persuasion might be the wrong heading as well. Greglocock (talk) 04:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think for a start we should get rid of the bit about left wing journalists naming it the Govt Gazette, the source for it is the SMH, clear bias/conflict of interest there.Theworld2 (talk) 05:59, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Whoa there, Dobbin. Sources merely need to supply the reference, they don't have to be unbiased or whatever. After all if the editor of the paper is quoted, that's obviously CoI/biased, for example. Having said that, i agree it doesn't add much to an encyclopedic article. The article on The Age is probably a good model for this one, its a lot less bitchy, since presumably the editors who are interested are all of one mind about it, whereas this one seems to have seen some edit-warring. I think changing the Persuauion header to say Outlook, or something, would be better. Greglocock (talk) 00:40, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Persuasion 2010

I removed the following edit, which replaced the entire previous persusion section:

The Australian is also an asset of media conglomerate News Corporation, whose holdings include Fox News, which has been the subject of criticism for a political right leaning at the expense of neutrality. (Referenced with this source).

This is original research. The source does not say anything about The Australian, so the editor was conducting their own analysis, linking two thoughts - implying that the newspaper is right-wing and not neutral because it is owned by News, which, in turn, owns Fox News. Wikipeterproject (talk) 17:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

None of that sequence of edits was useful, not worth mentioning imo. Greglocock (talk) 05:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Twitter libel/climate change bit

Is this not a storm in a teacup? If so why is it here? And I bet you cannot find a single reliable ref that supports Lomborg disagreeing with the consensus on AGW, that bit is pure pot stirring. If you read his books as opposed to repeating the alarmist drivel you'd know that. Greglocock (talk) 01:11, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Destruction of the greens

While the enthusiastic editor is making a fool of himself in public http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Australian&action=historysubmit&diff=408340133&oldid=407992464 I'd say that it is fairly unusual for a newspaper to recommend destroying an elected political party at the ballot boxes. Is this not worth a section? Greglocock (talk) 05:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've just re-instated some of this (fully referenced) material.121.45.193.48 (talk) 08:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that sections containing phrases such as "The Australian tends to lean quite erroneously to the right" and "biases/belittiling of Greens" are clearly POV. I was right to delete them. Please remember that since this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, it's meant to be neutral, merely stating the facts, not your opinions.

The main problem I have is with having a section devoting itself to The Australian's editorials and columns about the Greens. I'm afraid that they are simply not that notable. Having said that, I was perhaps mistaken in choosing to delete the lot. It's just that the section was originally extremely POV, and many contributors seem to want to devote large sections of the article to their grievances with The Australian's criticisms of the left side of politics in order to make the article reflect their personal attitudes towards The Oz. I think that it suffices simply to state what the newspaper's general political position is, and the fact that that arouses some controvery. In an effort to reach a compromise however I have amended the article to include the Greens controversy. I think a brief mention of it may be appropriate. Let me know if you are happy with it or object. (talk) 03:27, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks about right to me. Now, is that bit called Related Events really notable? Newspapers in oz have all had suppression orders at one time or another. and even if the material should be in the article, it is in the wrong place and mistitled. Greglocock (talk) 21:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Please retain the section regarding the controversy with the Greens - it is ridiculous to keep removing it. There are clearly sockpuppets from the Australian at work here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.212.62 (talk) 08:09, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it does need a section on it. However, your request is fairly hypocritical, since you fail to discuss why you ignore specific requests on the talk page and in the article itself. So don't expect much tolerance from me. Greglocock (talk) 10:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Political Alignment

Unless someone can convince me otherwise I think it is not unreasonable to ask that a RS be used for any change to this in the infobox. I'd have thought a direct quote from the editor is a pretty hard statement to argue with on this. I'd go one step further and point out that the spectrum of opinion in The Australian ranges far wider than that of The Age, yet the latter article doesn't even bother with the silly tag. Greglocock (talk) 04:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

This analysis gives no indication the paper provided a centrist view towards coverage of the 2010 federal election. Many of the columnists have a conservative perspective and/or are critical of Labor governments. I don't read newspapers but I am aware they publish opinion pieces skeptical of climate change and employ right-wing extremists like Andrew Bolt. What evidence is there to claim a centrist perspective? - Shiftchange (talk) 11:27, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

A) the editor says it is is centre-right (as comfortable with Rudd as howard) B) Bolt does not write for the Oz regularly, he writes regularly for a tabloid. C) "I don't read newspapers" -it shows, but yet you still have an opinion on them. D) "Many of the columnists have a conservative perspective and/or are critical of Labor governments. " true. Philip Adams, Mike Steketee, Errol Simper, and others are all also regular contributors. Not exactly a bunch of right wingers. E) "they publish opinion pieces skeptical of climate change" They also publish pieces that promote the AGW fairy tale.

So it would appear you don' know what you are talking about. However this is wiki so I have to give the impression that I take you seriously. Greglocock (talk) 23:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Shiftchange has observed on my talk page that quoting what the editor /thinks/ the political stance is, is not really a secondary source for that stance. I agree. Greglocock (talk) 02:33, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is this paper without 'political alignment' in the info box? Reading over the above i am amazed that there is ambiguity about its political alignment. It is clearly a conservative paper. No reasonable person could doubt this. It is openly 'socially conservative', and openly to the right of politics in its economic support of unfettered free market policies. Australia's only dominant Left Wing Party (The Greens), and its centre-Left Party (the ALP) have regularly and persistently noted the papers conservative leanings for over two decades. The paper employs arch conservative political commentators almost exclusively. It is referred to by other media outlets and newspapers as 'conservative'. Do you mean to tell me that because its editor once stated that it supports the economic policies of the know defunct Rudd government that we should deny commonsense and pretend it is 'centre-right'. It is a conservative paper and known as such internationally. Like all papers on WIKI this political alignment should be noted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crapeblaser (talk • contribs) 11:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, find a reliable source that gives a political alignment. FWIW none of the 3 Australian large circulation papers I checked (Age, SMH, Hun) bothered with this simplistic red rag classification in the info box. In this context I suggest the bar should be set quite high for what is considered an RS. Greglocock (talk) 00:47, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Unless the editor of the paper self-proclaims a political alignment for the paper, then none should be professed on the wiki page. One's perspective on political alignment is relative to ones own political position. Claiming as fact that the paper is "conservative" or "leftist" only reflects the political alignment of the reader, which should be omitted from wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhmailcenter (talk • contribs) 23:54, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Find a reliable source that gives a political alignment for the paper? You could try the already existing reference on the page (reference six) which states that the paper is "generally conservative". Academic Robert Manne's various articles on the Australian media reference the papers conservative political alignment also. I can chase that source up if it helps. The Australian should be exempt from political alignment because other Australian papers are? Seems a bizarre argument. Why should Australian papers be exempt from these classifications? Are you suggesting it is a given that Australian papers are neutral where other nations papers aren't? The Guardian is described on Wiki as centre-Left, The Times as moderate conservative. Why? Because that is an accurate description of those papers political alignments. Just as 'conservative' is an accurate description of the Australian. By the bye, claiming that a paper is 'leftist' or 'conservative' does not simply reflect the bias of the reader. The Times is conservative in its political alignment, that is why Tory's read it. The Guardian is leftist in its political alignment, that is why Left Labour and Lib Dem types are its audience. Similarly, The Australian reflects the views of its target audience - who are socially right leaning, free market neo-conservatives. Everyone knows this but wikipedia. I find it bizarre that it is possible to classify China Daily as conservative on wiki, yet impossible to state such a basic fact about The Australian!

"Unless the editor of the paper self-proclaims a political alignment for the paper, then none should be professed on the wiki page." So despite commonly held views, it is the subjects self description that becomes fact on a wiki page.

The Australian is a conservative read. It is right leaning. Not a massive call. Something that is commonly understood in Australia. Yet unspeakable on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freighttrain6574 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

You've messed up the format of this page. As to your stupid accusation, at least when people accuse me of COI they usually manage to get my employer right. If you had bothered to read the above properly you'd see that I agreed with another editor that my inital statement was not satisfactory, so most of your rant is a waste of electrons. Find a reliable source, put it in, and that is fine by me. Greglocock (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Note that Freightrain is removing parts of his rant so my reply may not make much sense. The history page reveals all. If anyone cares. Greglocock (talk) 23:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

History

This article is very lacking in the history of the newspaper. It's hard finding links because of the name:

• [3][4]
• [5]
• [6]
• [7]

--Surturz (talk) 02:53, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

antipathy this antipathy that

Does anybody remember any particularly sustained attacks by the The Australian on the Howard Government? Then we can go for a trifecta of antipathies. Greglocock (talk) 22:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't. Was that meant to be a rhetorical question. They don't work well on the web. If you want to make a point, make it directly. HiLo48 (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

No, not rhetorical. I am pretty sure there was a caustic series of articles on some aspects of the Howard govt, but can't remember what it was about. Greglocock (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yup. They sunk the boot in about many aspects. They very very pro-republican when the PM was pro-monarchy. They kept on highlighting the leadership chances of Costello. They were scathing about government cover-ups, dissembling and incompetence. As they should be. Attacking government failings doesn't mean they are tracking one party over another. --Pete (talk) 22:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Useful study on media slant

http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/MediaSlant.pdf table 6 is especially relevant. Greglocock (talk) 22:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. Please explain why you think so. HiLo48 (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Table 6 indicates that The Australian is not measurably different in editorial opinion at election time to most other newspapers. Many editors at wiki would be surprised to learn that, for instance the incoherent one a few paras up. Greglocock (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:ATTACK vio

OK, any day now I'm going to tag this article for violating WP:ATTACK. The "antipathy" rubbish has to go. There is no evidence of impropriety on behalf of The Australian, only a few vested interests' name-calling. No-one has been arrested or sued over any of this stuff. --Surturz (talk) 05:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The Australian: "We believe Bob Brown and his Green colleagues are hypocrites; that they are bad for the nation; and that they should be destroyed at the ballot box". Their words, not ours. But then again, the Greens *are* evil. Timeshift (talk) 05:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Surturz, do you work for Murdoch? If you can't see anti-Green and anti-Labor bias in the Australian's reporting over the past couple of years, you must have the same bias yourself. We all have biases, but The Australian' is certainly not a middle of the road one. It belongs in the article, but I'm not sure how. HiLo48 (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Surturz-Do you not think it is notable that a serious newspaper in a western democracy so strongly emphasises its disdain for a (n unfortunately) significant political party in an editorial? FWIW I agree, the ALP bit is just the usual cut and thrust, but since it doesn't bother me either way I reworded it to make it more sensible.

HiLo, cut the COI accusations. Greglocock (talk) 05:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

HiLo didn't make any COI accusations. Timeshift (talk) 05:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

"do you work for Murdoch?" I suppose that was just a friendly inquiry as to his employment status? see veiled threat. You'll also notice some mouthbreather above asked me much the same question, it really is none of anyone's business. Greglocock (talk) 05:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I've been in talk page discussions on various articles with the two users over the years and to me it doesn't come across in the slightest as a serious question. It is not a COI accusation. Timeshift (talk) 05:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, sorry Greglocock (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/needed-a-policy-for-julia-direction-for-labor/story-e6frg71x-1225916087426 ref for the ballot box comment. Incidentally wp:attack refers to pages, not sections Greglocock (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Interesting view by News Ltd more generally. Who said journalism and opinion were two different things? Timeshift (talk) 05:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What my opinions are about The Oz and who I work for are irrelevant - see WP:NPOV and WP:OUTING. Greg's link is to the editorial and it is WP:UNDUE and WP:OR - you need some other WP:RS quoting the "destroyed at the ballot box" editorial to establish notability. Ultimately, accusations of bias should not appear in this article unless there is some reliable evidence that the bias actually exists (e.g. legal action). Otherwise, it's just politicians being politicians and mouthing off about unfavourable headlines/editorials. As for newspaper editorials and opinion articles, they're _meant_ to express a viewpoint. They're hardly evidence of bias. --Surturz (talk) 06:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I never really assumed you worked for Murdoch. It was just my way of saying that your biases seem to match his big paper's very well. We are all biased. My political bias tends to match that of the Fairfax papers. Yours matches more closely that of The Australian. That's not a criticism, just an observation based on you claiming that the paper is not biased. From your perspective, it's not, and that's fine. That's why it's better that the article speaks of particular attacks from the paper, as it has clearly done against the ALP, and more blatantly The Green in recent years. (I reckon Murdoch must be terrified of them, given what his papers say about them.) I don't see the problem in describing the paper that way. That's what it is, while the Fairfax papers are less critical of the Greens and ALP. It's the reality of spreadsheet publishing in Australia today. Let's tell the story properly. HiLo48 (talk) 06:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Surturz, in your opinion is mediawhine or crikey a sufficient secondary source? Or am i just chasing a dead red herring? Greglocock (talk) 11:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

You're not going to convince me that The Oz's "bias" is worth including, if that is what you are asking. As for secondary sources, the problem is that competing news organisations are always sledging each other (e.g. The Australian's "cut and paste" column, ABC's "Media Watch"). My opinion is that if we include any text on The Oz's supposed bias, then the article is inferring or alleging improper behaviour.

Newspapers are usually much more critical of the government than the opposition. This is right and proper. We need to be _very_ careful that we aren't confusing proper scrutiny of the ALP-Greens government with editorial misbehaviour.

Newspapers are certainly allowed to run opinion articles, to have an editorial voice, and even to recommend a way to vote at election time. As long as opinion isn't presented as fact, then there is no misbehaviour. What's the phrase? "Bias is better declared"! :-)

At this stage I'd like to point out that the "History" section on this article is woeful and needs work. Our energies would be much better spent on improving that section than trying to discredit the newspaper. --Surturz (talk) 12:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. And the lack of bias is right in the article!!!

In November 2006, The Australian journalist Caroline Overington was awarded both the Sir Keith Murdoch Award for Journalism and a Walkley for investigative journalism over her coverage of the AWB Oil-for-Wheat Scandal for the paper.[15] The following year, Hedley Thomas won the Gold Walkley Award for his coverage of the Haneef case.

So the paper went after the Coalition govt just as hard as it is now going after the ALP-Greens government. --Surturz (talk) 12:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the 'anti' Lib examples. Yes I agree, proper newspapers do generally give the sitting government a hard time. Cheers Greglocock (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

My impression is that the attacks on The Greens have been going on from way before they became part of the government. HiLo48 (talk) 21:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't classify the paper as being anti-ALP so much as anti bad government. Abbott and the Libs are not given the dream run by The Australian that a traditional political slant would necessarily require. Rudd and Gillard have both floundered in government policy and public opinion and the paper reflects this. If Abbott became PM I would expect to see him likewise the target of criticism if he failed to deliver. I rate all three prospects as near certainties. We cannot say the paper is biased unless there is some evidence. Directing strong criticism of poor government at that government is not bias but good journalism. --Pete (talk) 23:18, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The Australian has said they want to destroy the Greens. Good journalism doesn't indistinguishly blend fact and opinion togther. Pretty simple really. Timeshift (talk) 02:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

And that was statement was made in the opinion pages (in an editorial). Where do you suggest it should have been made? Greglocock (talk) 05:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Nowhere. For media organisations to come out in this day and age and call for the destruction of a party, it all harks back to Labor's early days when they fought with and eventually won against the conservative media. I refer to The Australian and it's content more generally when I say that they blend fact and opinion together. It's a disease that's infected all media outlets but some do it worse than others. Case in point. Timeshift (talk) 05:47, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Well we obviously aren't going to agree, but the fact is that most newspapers have opinion pages, and most newspapers have editorials, where whatever bee the editor has in his bonnet can buzz. The media was pretty unsupportive of One Nation, I suspect you approved of that. Greglocock (talk) 22:26, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't seem to recall The Oz treating One Nation any different than the other media outlets, and I certainly don't recall any media outlets calling for One Nation's destruction. But not like it matters anywhere near as much, One Nation never had anywhere near the influence on parliament that Labor/LNP/Green had. The Australian is biased against the left. They are a right-aligned media outlet that has troubles keeping their fact and opinion in check. They're not? Stuff like this is just lefty rubbish? Yes... that must be it. The Australian couldn't be just biased... it just couldn't. Timeshift (talk) 23:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course its biased. Great we agree on something. All newspapers are biased. I suspect you didn't used to read the Oz when One Nation were around. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if you don't read it now, you really sound like a typical Fairfax/ABC and they supply you with your little soundbites. That's fine, like I said I don't think we're going to agree on much, and frankly this is way OT for a talk page. Greglocock (talk) 02:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course, but i'm just answering statements/questions i'm asked - FWIW I read all news sources, i'm a big fan of google news and the search refinement features it has. Timeshift (talk) 02:09, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

Please see the ref I provided above in the History section of this talkpage [8]

The extensive literature devoted to the politics of the period and the 1975 constitutional crisis12 confirms Murdoch’s interventionism in both the affairs of the Australian and matters of state, and it goes some way to explaining the paper’s dramatic reinvention from the outspoken liberal paper it became under Adrian Deamer to the crusading right-wing paper edited under Leslie Hollings. Yet the rapidity and extent of this transformation, attributed to Murdoch’s own disillusionment with ‘bleeding heart’ liberal causes, require closer examination beyond the events of 1975. The issue of Murdoch’s proprietorial influence is not in doubt, but the extent and nature of that influence during the transitional decade of the 1970s and throughout the 1980s, at the time of News Limited’s unprecedented overseas expansion, should not be automatically assumed. The 1987 election, analysed in Chapter 6, complements the analysis of the 1975 drama and confirms the rise of radical right-wing ideologues and the influence of conservative think tanks on the paper while maintaining a

liberal counter-voice in Paul Kelly and the Canberra bureau.

--Surturz (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

More antipathy

I've removed a couple of statements claiming antipathy to Labor and the Greens. The statements are unsupported by the sources. If we are going to tell our readers that the Australian is hostile to a specific party, we need a reliable source saying precisely that, not an editor drawing his own conclusions and stating them as fact. WP:OR and especially WP:SYN are worth reading for guidance. --Pete (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Support There is a big difference between an editorial position, and biased reporting. Political parties of all stripes claim media bias when it suits them. The Australian went after the Howard government just as hard when it was in power, e.g. the Haneef case. It is right and proper that the fourth estate be critical of the government of the day. The only unusual factor at this time is that the Greens are part of the government. --Surturz (talk) 23:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Position on climate

Looking at this edit, we find three references supplied. The first, a Guardian article, does not mention The Australian at all. The second is a redlink. The third is a subjective opinion piece, but the estimates given do not match the text supposedly supported. We need reliable and relevant sources for our text. --Pete (talk) 11:21, 24 October 2012 (UTC) Good find on the media study. That's exactly what we need, rather than blogs and irrelevancies. --Pete (talk) 23:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

While the second source wasn't correctly formatted, the URL was always easily discernible (http://www.acij.uts.edu.au/pdfs/sceptical-climate-part1.pdf), and it appears to qualify as a reliable source. The source for the statement which was added to the article appears to be page 55 (the article appears to be using the stance of news stories, commentary articles and editorials towards the Carbon tax as a proxy measure of overall editorial stance in relation to climate change). Nick-D (talk) 10:55, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's a valid assumption. The Australian was highly critical of the Rudd government's Building the Education Revolution scheme, but you could not reasonably equate that to a negative attitude towards education. Likewise climate change and the carbon tax are two different things, and criticism of a cumbersome scheme is no more than that. Unless explicitly stated, otherwise. --Pete (talk) 11:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's the methodology those well qualified-looking academics used in researching and writing this paper, and not a reason to dismiss what appears to be a reliable source out of hand (they appear to note that general antipathy towards the government probably also coloured the choice of slant and editorials in their analysis and I presume that they know what they're doing given the positions they hold). Without wanting to engage in the debate over this issue, I have to say that I'm concerned about a) your attempts to dismiss this source as a 'red link' given that the URL was always easy to spot, especially to highly experienced editors such as yourself and b) the fact that you once again have inserted your political views into a talk page post for no apparent reason; this really makes it difficult to have any kind of conversation with you. Nick-D (talk) 11:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)