Talk:Golden Dawn (Greece)

Evidence of Golden Dawn being a neonazi party

Please see this extensive article from the Greek anti-racist blog "Jungle-Report". It has plenty of scanned material from Golden Dawn's own magazine, showing (a) Golden Dawn using and adopting nazi symbols, (b) Golden Dawn outright saying (and proudly) that it is a national-socialist (nazi) party, (c) Golden Dawn's own leader praising Adolf Hitler and his party. There's plenty of material to substantiate the claim that Golden Dawn is a neonazi party. Golden Dawn's trolls here on Wikipedia have perused and abused the language barrier for far too long to misinform other Wikipedians. Feel free to ask any Greek-speaking Wikipedian to translate the article and the scanned Golden Dawn articles for you; you'll all find it extremely interesting. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 10:14, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

And more, from "Business Insider". Truly a party that is "not racist" and "not neo-nazi", as its Greek sockpuppet supporters in here claim. Indeed. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 10:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

"Jungle Report" is blog and thus is not a reliable source. Dolescum (talk) 12:11, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, "Jungle Report", although it uses a blog platform, happens to do some actual reporting and it does bring up evidence that mainstream (see: corporate) media simply refuse to show (or instance, the videos of Golden Dawn rallies etc, as well as all the clippings from the magazine of "Golden Dawn" showing the nazi regalia and the articles that praise NSDAP members and foreign collaborators). In the same way, se should be considering rags like The Sun or The Daily Mirror to be by definition reliable, just because they are newspapers and not blogs. We should be examining the quality and verifiability of the information, not the type of platform used. A blog can be reliable, but it can also be unreliable - this depends exclusively on its owner. Oh, and I'd like to break the news to you: the English version of Wikipedia is considered unreliable in Greece, because (a) it does not pamper Greek nationalist views, (b) it does not flatter Greek Orthodox saints and monks, (c) it is not edited by people approved by the Greek government. In the meantime, I'd like to show you this evidence: it's a photo of Golden Dawn MP Panayiotis Iliopoulos, who recently drew his (most likely illegally owned) handgun against anti-racist protesters. In this photo, he proudly shows his "Sieg Heil" tattoo. Enjoy: https://twitpic.com/azvpwi Moderatelyaverage (talk) 19:37, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

That might well be true or they might be throwing out photoshopped images and politically motivated propaganda. The point is that if the Sun or the Mirror cook the facts up, at least in theory, they get fined and have to tell you as much. Bloggers? Not so much, just look at Answers in Genesis. Maybe pop over to WP:RSN? What Greek wikipedians do is up to them, there are similar issues with Spainards and the Falklands, it's still not an excuse for those of us working on this project to disregard policy and this isn't the correct forum to discuss what wikipedia policy should be.

Posting images from twitter is comical, too. There is absolutely no way you can know that image hasn't been modified. Dolescum (talk) 21:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually no, I saw that image on the guy's own Facebook page. He was damn proud of it. And I found the articles in a local journalist's archive. They were not photoshopped; instead, they were scanned as they were in their original printed form. And... By the way, who can tell you that a newspaper doesn't alter images? They do and, especially in Greece, they even narrate things in an entirely different manner from what actually happened, according to each corporation's interests. Heh, "To Vima" reported a meeting between Erdogan and Karamanlis that never took place and it was the "unreliable" bloggers that pointed it out and then had a field day! When it comes to the "coverage" of neonazism in Greece, I've found that anarchist and left-wing bloggers are a lot more reliable than the mainstream media, which were the ones that actively promoted Golden Dawn (for instance, by inviting its members from various areas and presenting them - misleading the public - as "concerned citizens", hiding the fact that these people were actually members of the nazi party). And the mainstream media in Greece even went as far as to tell us that national socialism and nazism are different things! Bloggers, on the other hand, didn't do that. I have hundreds of such examples. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 21:53, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Iliopoulos posted that photo on his own personal blog (yes, he does have a blog). Here it is: https://panagiotisiliopoulos.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/aimodosia2s.jpg - and here's his own blog: https://panagiotisiliopoulos.wordpress.com/ See for yourself if there was any alteration to mislead. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 21:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I said before, we follow policy here, not decide it. If you have an issue with wikipedia policies, take them up with the policymakers in the appropriate forum. In the meantime, all your stuff, while very interesting, doesn't pass RS. Dolescum (talk) 22:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought we were trying to have verifiable sources, not say "well, this piece of info came from a newspaper, so it must be reliable" (regardless of that newspaper's practices). I know that journalists ought to try to cross-check the information they post. Maybe cross-checking the information being published here could help us? For instance, in the early '00s, a hoax started circulating in Greece; it was about the "Hellenic Quest", an alleged project and application allegedly co-developed by Microsoft, Apple and the CNN, with which top execs around the world would be taught the "superior" (yeah, right) ancient Greek language, which supposedly enhances their management skills and IQ and is, in the words of the hoax, "the only language that computers understand" (sic). It was on newspapers, on magazines - it was republished by nearly everybody, his brother and his brother's dog. No one bothered to look for original references and announcements in the parties involved (they didn't exist). No one bothered to look for factual errors or even errors in logic. But it was news: it was published in magazines and newspapers. Even the magazine of Greece's Technical Chamber (to which I subscribe by default, as I am an engineer by profession) republished it! None of the journalists in Greece did any kind of research. It was blogs (which by default are not considered reliable soures) that pointed out that what we had there was a hoax. Fun fact: No Greek journalist at the time bothered to say "wait a minute, why can't we find ANY original sources in English about this?". Food for thought mainstream media credibility and reliability - especially that of Greek mainstream media. Of course, this doesn't make our job any easier. Considering mainstream media to be reliable by default and blogs to be unreliable by default is easy. But what happens when we're presented with a pattern of unreliability displayed by the "old media"? Like I said, this doesn't make our job easier, instead it only gives us more headaches. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sources have to be both verifiable and reliable. Yes, media organisations are't infallible, that's well known, but their businesses depend on telling the truth, hence wikipedia policy. I've suggested a couple of things you might like to do about that if you're unhappy. Anyway, if the content is so stunning, surely it'll show up in a media corporation report at some point, yes? Dolescum (talk) 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

That depends on many factors; it depends on how impressive the information is (let's face it, sensationalism does play an important role in many media's policy); whether it hurts the interests of the newspaper/TV/radio station's owner (and the ones of his/her favored politicians) or not; and so forth. More often than not, the public gets extremely important information too late or in a distorted form. Like I said, all this doesn't make our job here any easier and we end up having to read between lines. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 02:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

How many times

Can you people use the word 'nazi' in the introduction to an article?

Seriously, I doubt very much that this political party has anything to do with 1930s Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.254.163 (talk) 20:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck... It is a duck. A party whose official magazine heaps pages upon pages of praise, admiration and worship for the likes of Adolf Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Léon Degrelle and Savitri Devi, praises the Security Battalions, adopts and proudly displays nazi regalia, badges and symbols (including the symbols of the Thule Society), publishes articles in which the party itself openly describes its ideology as National Socialist and tries to justify the crimes of the Nazi armies in Greece; a party which has commited hundreds of crimes of racial violence; a party whose members post death threats against artists, journalists and human rights activists... Well, this party can only be called a nazi party. Like it or not, Golden Dawn is a nazi party and its supporters are, well, nazis. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 02:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:The duck test is applied for inner-Wikipedian matters, not for the content of Wikipedia articles. The article says that scholars consider it a neo-Nazi party, that it used to display Nazi symbols and praise Nazi leaders (which is all verifiable). How much more explicit do you want to convey it? --RJFF (talk) 13:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it is an oversimplification to call all the supporters of Golden Dawn nazis. Most of them are people who are just desperate because of the crisis and the immigration problems in Greece; they are not nazis. In any case, as regards the article, I have some serious doubts about the inclusion of the "neo-nazi" ideology in the article's infobox. Mainly because the party itself has recently distanced itself from the symbols, badges and pro-Nazi publications, which characterized its past. It still has a quasi-military structure, but they deny any connection with the Nazi ideology. Michaloliakos himself during the pro-election period was asked about an article of his which lauded Hitler, and he answered "Am I going to be judged from what I was writing 20 years ago"? Additionally, its political opponents regard Golden Dawn as far-right and extremist, but I think that they have generally dropped the "neo-nazi" accusation. What is for sure is the group characterizes its ideology as "nationalism"; that it does have a quasi-military structure (but I think that they are mainly influenced by the Metaxas party); and that its leader has publicly declared that he does not like elections, and that he does not regard them as useful.Yannismarou (talk) 12:56, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The fact that these "desperate" people praise the violent and downright criminal actions of the NSDAP-praising Golden Dawn leads us to the conclusion that they agree with quite a great deal of its platform. Also, as to your doubts, the fact that even today Golden Dawn members use the nazi salute (which they fraudulently and misleadingly call "Roman" or "ancient Greek" - even though it's a well-known fact to anyone that is not as illiterate as Golden Dawn supporters hope others are that this salute was never documented in any ancient text or source and first appeared in Jacques-Louis David's painting "Oath of the Horatii), the fact that they actively promote and sell CDs with NSDAP marches and music, CDs of neo-nazi bands, nazi memorabilia, as well as the fact that their own anthem is a rework of the NSDAP's anthem all lead us to the conclusion that they are indeed a neo-nazi party. And if its voters don't like being put in the same basket as the Golden Dawn neo-nazis, that's their problem, not Wikipedia's. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 10:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, what's going on? Why do so many Greeks defend this violent group and try to whitewash it? It uses nazi symbolism. It uses nazi music, salutes etc. It praises NSDAP leaders. It praises people who betrayed their countries and sided with the Third Reich. Why are Greek Wikipedians trying to tell us to ignore these facts and say it's not a neo-nazi party? Moderatelyaverage (talk) 11:11, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

They obviously can't admit they're National Socialists, but all their program and behaviour tells us that they share same ideology as National Socialist German Workers Party, except that enemy are not just Jews, but also Non-European immigrants in Greece. When they win power, you'll see it..They demand Istanbul and return of today's Turkish coast line to Greece and demand Cyprus. They are neo-fascists and we and you know it. Please call it with right names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.157.159 (talk) 05:03, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

In a magnificent display of the Freudian slip, Golden Dawn's spokesman Ilias Kasidiaris said on TV (it was recorded and documented on this video, skip to 0:31) the following "Ακούστηκε και από τον εκπρόσωπο του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ μέχρι και ότι είμαστε νεοναζιστική οργάνωση. Δεν είμαστε οργάνωση, είμαστε πολιτικό κόμμα" (translated from Greek: "It was said by the spokesman of SYRIZA even that we are a neo-nazi organization. We are not an organization, we are a political party"). Thus, we are left with two possibilities:

• One possibility is that Mr. Kasidiaris inadvertently admits that Golden Dawn is neo-nazi, but they want to be considered a political party rather than an organization.
• The other possibility is that we must be led to unflattering conclusions about the intelligence of Mr. Kasidiaris.

At any rate, this is most amusing, especially considering the sheer number of annoyed Greek neo-nazis who come here to try to censor the article so that people abroad will not have access to the facts about this "party". Moderatelyaverage (talk) 10:28, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

They are probably Nazis but we cant subjectively call a group something so this needs to be changed. Instead have a section with the claims by the citations of Nazi only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.95.129.245 (talk) 15:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's what UEFA has to say... http://www.epo.gr/refs/pdf/racist_symbols.pdf (page 26, it's the Greek translation of a manual to Greek Football Association). I translate what it says: "Golden Dawn is a far-right neo-nazi party in Greece" (original: η Χρυσή Αυγή είναι ένα ακροδεξιό νεοναζιστικό κόμμα στην Ελλάδα). Pretty clear, don't you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.135.9 (talk) 14:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

This site is not "UEFA", the article is anonymous, its sources are three german unofficial sites and the Greek football people would better concentrate on the manipulated matches. Btw, WP is not a forum.

Number of sources validating claim that Golden Dawn is far-right

I'm not sure we have enough to cover this point - does anyone have any ideas as to further websites/articles/journals we could be citing here? Surlyduff50 (talk) 20:22, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

You mean that the multitude of articles, websites and journals that document Golden Dawn as a party that is not only far-right, but openly nazi aren't enough? Where exactly are you getting at? Moderatelyaverage (talk) 22:01, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Adding ten more sources to prove this point is more than unnecessary. Not the quantity of sources decides, but the quality. We already have a selection of three high-quality reliable, academic sources verifying this statement. Adding references to newspapers or Socialcam is not helpful. The first sentence looks ridiculous with its 13 (!) footnotes in the middle of the sentence now, instead of creating the impression of a reliable information source. --RJFF (talk) 13:05, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Having so many footnotes is indeed way beyond ridiculous. And this "oh, we don't have enough sources to say Golden Dawn is far-right" when, in fact, we have - as you have correctly pointed - high-quality, reliable, academic sources (of which we already have more than enough) doesn't contribute at all. I'm with you on this one and agree with you. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 15:46, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I prefer the term "far right" instead of "extreme right" because it is more commonly used both in scholarly sources and in other Wikipedia articles. TFD (talk) 16:25, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm on it. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 22:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with TFD. However, some editors here feel that they are distinct terms, but are as of yet unable to source that contention. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I have to object. "Extremism" is an established and defined term in political science. Extremists fundamentally reject the established, liberal democratic system, whereas the term "far right" only roughly describes the position of a party in the political spectrum. Greek LAOS, or well-known European parties, like the Freedom Party of Austria or the Dutch Party for Freedom can be described as far-right, because they are further to the right than the conservatives (who are centre-right), but they accept and work within democratic institutions, and have even joined, or supported, coalition governments. In constrast, Golden Dawn principally rejects and attacks multiparty democracy, and a liberal, pluralistic society, which makes it an extremist party. Therefore "extremist" is more exact and apt than the more general and vague term "far right". --RJFF (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

The most common use of the term "Extreme Right" in political science is describe parties that are to the right of traditional conservatism. See for example "A fourth phase of the extreme right?". Note that Laird Wilcox who is mentioned in the "Extremism" article includes the John Birch Society and the Christian Crusade in his book on extremism. As Clive Webb writes in Rabble rousers: the American far right in the civil rights era, "Radical right is commonly, but not completely, used to describe anticommunist organizations such as the Christian Crusade and John Birch Society.... [T]he term far right...is the label most broadly used by scholars...to describe militant white supremacists." Obviously these and other terms are often used interchangeably. TFD (talk) 21:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Golden Dawn gaining support in Greece

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that since the last elections, their popularity has dramatically risen to over 25% of vote intention, making it the 2nd most voted party after SYRIZA. 85.58.222.232 (talk) 18:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It might possibly be - but it would help if you provided a source for this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a news outlet. We should be careful and avoid WP:Recentism. As long as this is only about only short-term opinion poll ratings and not election results, it does not belong in an encyclopedic article on an organization that has existed for 30 years. --RJFF (talk) 23:09, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Golden Dawn New York and Montreal Chapters not covered

The recent addition of 'Golden Dawn New York' and 'Golden Dawn Montreal' Chapters are not covered in the current article. They have their own websites and party offices. The Golden Dawn in Greece stated that they are doing this to reach out to the Greek diaspora by expanding into other nations. This needs to be covered. Look on New York Times website for (biased) information. --Nikoz78 (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Biased? As in "not friendly to the neo-nazi party"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.135.9 (talk) 22:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

No, as in opinionated misinformation.--Nikoz78 (talk) 14:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Metaxism

The Golden Dawn is also a Metaxist party. Can someone add this to the ideology part of the infobox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.71.98.142 (talk) 11:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If you cite a reliable source verifying it. --RJFF (talk) 09:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Neo-Nazism/National Socialism still "disputed"?

In this article, there is a characterization of North Korea as a "national socialist" state, sourced by three (3) citations. As long as North Korea is characterized as "national socialist" (rather than Stalinist) in a Wikipedia page, why is there still a "dispute" about the Neo-Nazism of Golden Dawn, who have used (and still use) symbols associated with Nazism? There are notable citations sourcing National Socialism as an ideology of the party, so why "disputed"? You may say, the party itself disputes it. So? Did the North Korean Government ever say it is National Socialist? No. Still Wikipedia characterizes it as such, because there are notable academic sources claiming so. This could be also the case with Golden Dawn. Putting the word "disputed" next to Neo-Nazism just doesn't make sence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.69.183.144 (talk) 11:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Recently, the party has explicitly denied being Nazist. I don't have a strong opinion in this question. Parties' ideologies always must be described from a neutral point of view (POV), and not from the respective party's own POV. However, if the party firmly denies to have a certain ideology, I find it acceptable to add the word "disputed" in brackets. I would both accept adding or removing the word "disputed" (because it is not neutral scholars who dispute it, but only the party itself). The article's lead section already says that "the group rejects these labels". --RJFF (talk) 12:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Describing North Korea as national socialist i.e Nazi is definitely not the majority POV.Estlandia (Miacek) (dialogue) 12:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I am sure they mean nationalist socialism, not National Socialism in the sense of Nazism. --RJFF (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

"...with Kim Il-sung and his heirs adopting many aspects of Empire of Japan, especially under Tennō Hirohito in the 1930s, including propaganda style, “paranoid nationalism”, xenophobia, and racism[9] – leading to the most recent characterization by some academics as national-socialist state.[10][11][12]" from Politics of North Korea.

The fact that the depiction of DPRK as Nazi is not the majority is indeed my point. As, even though it's not the majority, it is still claimed in a Wikipedia page. In the case of Golden Dawn, depiction as Nazi IS the majority. So why a majority thought needs to be continuously "disputed" by what a biased party line says? Wikipedia is edited from a neutral point of view, and the neutral majority views GD as Neo-Nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.69.176.160 (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree.Golden Dawn actively praises members of GErmany's nazi party,many of its posters are copies of the gernan NPD's ads,it uses nazi insignia, sells nazi CDs.It IS a nazi party, everyone says so.In fact, yestreday even its leader said so: "we may be nazis, but we are not thieves", and then gave the nazi salute to his followers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.135.9 (talk) 12:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh look! Teh New York Times call Golden Dawn "neo-nazi"! Everyone calls them neo-nazi, but still its disputed? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/nyregion/reported-golden-dawn-sightings-rattle-astoria-queens.html?src=recg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.135.9 (talk) 18:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Wait, they did it again! The New York Times again call Golden Dawn "neo-nazi" and mention support from the police!!! http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/world/europe/amid-the-echoes-of-an-economic-crash-the-sounds-of-greek-society-being-torn.html

And you'll looooooove this interview a Golden Dawn MP gave to BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19976841 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.135.9 (talk) 19:06, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Racism

Both neutral scholars, and the party's own leader identify Golden Dawn as racist. Racism is an ideology. (Martin N. Marger: Race and Ethnic Relations: American and Global Perspectives, 2009, p. 19; Robert Miles: Social Theory and Social Structure, 1989, p. 3; "Racism." Encyclopaedia Britannica Online) Therefore, there is no reason to exclude racism from the ideology field of the infobox. --RJFF (talk) 12:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Please add a source.96.26.39.11 (talk) 17:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Sources are cited in the lead section of the article. Please read it. --RJFF (talk) 19:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This again? *Sigh*. Again: regardless of racism being an ideology (I don't believe it is, but lets move on) it is already covered by the neo-nazi tag. Not even the NSDAP or the KKK has the "racism" in the ideology. So no. Arathian (talk) 03:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Infoboxes are supposed to contain concise information, not extensive detail. We should just state that their ideology is "far right", which includes neo-nazis, neo-fascists, racists and ultranationalists. While there are sources that describe racism as an ideology, I do not see it as a normal categorization of the ideologies of political parties. What is the racist view on economics, same sex marriage, social welfare? TFD (talk) 17:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

"Far-right" is a position in the political spectrum, while ultra-nationalism, neo-nazism and racism are ideologies. Ideologies do not necessarily have views towards all political issues or questions, compare e.g. nationalism, populism, economic liberalism, social conservatism. --RJFF (talk) 21:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

"Position is the political spectrum" is no longer part of the standard template because it is ambiguous. However, even though the term far right is derived from their perceived position in the political spectrum, it is used to describe a specific family of ideologies. See for example Webb, Clive. Rabble rousers: the American far right in the civil rights era. Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 2010 ISBN 0820327646, p. 10, "[T]he term far right...is the label most broadly used by scholars...to describe militant white supremacists." Can you think of a better term to describe the family of ideologies that includes both the KKK and the American Nazi Party? TFD (talk) 23:26, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

"Stance towards Turkey"

I was looking for a source that had Michaloliakos's original quote for wanting to "take back" Constantinople and Smyrna. Clearly, the Turkish newspaper distorted his words since in a highly nationalist statement like this, he would not use the Turkish names "Izmir" and "Istanbul" (are transliterations of these terms even used in Greek?). However, I could not find any reporting on this issue from non-Turkish websites, which suggests that it is an obscure statement by one person, and not representative of the party's policy towards Turkey. Shrigley (talk) 17:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)