Talk:Szepes County

1st comment

Since this is about the historic county, historic names should be used, instead of the present day names. --VinceB 16:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If all you are going to do is repeat the Spiš article using Hungarian names, then that will scarcely justify this new article. --Smerus 20:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Unless the articles are changed to clearly differentiate between the county and the historical region, this seems to be a fork. Olessi 22:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for helping separate from the region from the county. --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 14:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Magyar language was official language of Kingdom of Hungary in 1848-1849 and than from 1867. Slovak, Serbian, Romanian, German schools etc. was thanks to magyarisation abolished and about 2,5 milion people (mostly Germans, Slovaks, Ruthenians) was turned to Magyars. But during first 700 years of existence of Kingdom of Hungary, its official language was only Latin!!! (and sometimes in the 18th and in the 19th century also only German, sometimes all Magyar, Slovak, German etc. in counties with corresponding nation). So, please, either change official names of articles about counties of Kingdom to languages of present location of this counties or to Latin. But don´t use Magyar names! Although many present Magyars believe it was their country (until 1918) it wasn´t! Until 1918 Kingdom of Hungary was homeland for Magyars, Germans, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Romanians, Serbs, Croats etc. Magyars consist only 30-40% of its population although official statistics said 51%, but census wasn´t anonymous as you must know. --Kristo 19:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Szepes county or Spiš county

I just repaired the duplicate articles Szepes county and Spiš county. User:Svetovid moved Szepes county to Spiš county on 27 May, and User:Hobartimus copied the content back to Szepes county 4 hours later. This is not the way to do this, it smells like Wikipedia:Content forking. We agreed earlier that there should be separate articles about the (past and present) region, and about the Kingdom of Hungary comitatus. But there should only be one article about the comitatus. We can discuss about the name of that article, if necessary. Given the Hungarian names used for most other comitati (also in Slovakia), I would prefer the Hungarian name (preferred form: Szepes (county)). Markussep 12:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Previous discussions:

• Talk:Spiš#Spis region and Szepes county: the decision to split the article into one about the region, and one about the historic administrative unit. No real discussion about what title the county article should have.
• Talk:Ung county: discussion seemed to favour "Uzh county", was moved to "Ung county" a few days ago.
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Historical Hungarian counties#Article name says (a.o.): "In Slovakia the Slovak versions of the names are still used very often, so the Slovak names are used for the titles."
• Talk:Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary#Naming issues is the most extensive discussion I've found, and gives an overview of the argument pro and contra. I think the consensus was not to bother.

The current status is that all former Kingdom of Hungary counties in present Hungary and Romania have Hungarian article titles, all in Croatia have Croatian titles (but Croatia-Slavonia was an autonomous entity within the KoH), and Slovakia is mixed. Markussep 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Current discussion at Talk:Kingdom of Hungary#Names of the Slovak counties should be in Slovak. Markussep ^Talk 14:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Language

I wonder how the fact that the Hungarian name (Szepes) was not always the official one can be used to argue for using the Slovak name that has never been official.

Anybody to explain that?

--peyerk 12:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, could anybody tell me where letter š can be fount in the English alphabet? At first sight it's not easy to believe that "Spiš" is in English...

--peyerk 13:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to move an article, you shouldn't copy-and-paste it to another title, but use the "move" button. That way you don't destroy the article's edit history. In this case you will need an administrator's assistance, because the destination article already exists (see WP:RM). And probably there has to be discussion about this first. Markussep 13:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I know. Sorry for using inappropriate methods. Anyway, I was forced by some other editors doing the same in advance.

--peyerk 13:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Noone forces you to bypass discussion. Well let's have that discussion now. Markussep 13:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Eeer... funny. I try to return to the previous consensus to start discussion. What I see is someone has been working against consensus without debate for some days. And still gives me no answer.

Heh?

--peyerk 13:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Cutting and pasting is not the right way. Thanks to the Svetovid/Hobartimus/Peyerk edit war there is no simple way to repair it correctly, so we need administrator assistance. Markussep 14:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you just seriously claim that because š is not in the English alphabet names containing š cannot be used in English? So what about all those other names using letters not native to the English alphabet just because no "English-alphabet" alternative exists? What about all those French names with "é", for example? The funny thing is that those Hungarian names have their share of non-English characters too.--Svetovid 16:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear friend, you are the kind that fights with statements never stated. It makes me tired.

I did not claim that these names could not be used in English. What I did claim was that these names were not English. I stated it because you claimed that Spiš was an English name.

--peyerk 21:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim that it originated in English or anything like that. I claim that it is accepted/used in English. See, for example, Spiš Castle at travel-guides.com.--Svetovid 22:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You are the kind that tries to modify previous claims in discussion. It makes me tired.

You did claim that Slovak names are English writing "Names of the Slovak counties should be in Slovak (=English)" here: [1]

I cannot discuss anything with somebody trying to lie about his own past statements.

--peyerk 08:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Please... Yes I said Slovak names could be used in English therefore act like English names. Logic. --Svetovid 11:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

C'mon... Keep consistent. What you wrote was Slovak names are English names.

OK, let's say you meant "Slovak names can be used in English". But... this is same true for Hungarian names, isn't it? So is it an argument for Slovak names against Hungarian ones?!? Try to participate in a debate like this with serious arguments. Please!

--peyerk 12:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The Slovak names could and are. The Hungarian names, however, are not used in English.--Svetovid 16:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you give any justification, please? Enc.Brit. 1911 uses Hungarian names. That is not surprising given the fact that Hungarian names were official that time.

Any native English resource for Slovak names?

--peyerk 18:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Britannica also uses Pressburg for Bratislava (which is a conformed English name for Bratislava before 1919) and says "...capital of the county of the same name...". This shows that they immediately preferred "English" (borrowed from German) name of they could. Also, name are in Hungarian because they had Hungarian sources. Also see older maps at lib.utexas.edu, which use the German names for other Slovak towns too. Th reason why Slovak names should be used is obvious though - consistency. Slovaks/Slavic people always lived there in majority, and those regions are now in Slovakia still informally using those names. So those names are obviously best to avoid confusion. It's about time you explained your incentives for Hungarian names though.--Svetovid 21:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Counties of the old Kingdom of Hungary are all called on their Hungarian names. Hungarian was the official language from 1836 to 1918 (except the 1849-61 period), while Slovak names were never official and the counties were abolished in 1922. Present-day Slovak regions could have their own articles but renaming the abolished counties is anachronistic and an attempt of history falsification. Moving this article to Spiš was against former consensus and created confusion. Zello 16:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Zello, you posted a message on my talk page. As far as I know, the article titles for counties in present Slovakia have used the Slovak names for most of the time. The main reason for that was that the articles were also about the regions before and after they were part of the Kingdom of Hungary, and names like Šariš, Spiš and Gemer are still in use in Slovakia today. User:Baxter9 moved them to Hungarian names less than a week ago, Svetovid moved them back a few days later, and it has exploded into an cut-paste edit war, in which you're the latest contributor. See for instance the histories of Trenčín county, Nitra county, Spiš county, Šariš. This is a complete mess, especially Orava/Árva. Please stop this, and finish the discussion first. Markussep 19:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What language versions to be used for naming former KoH counties?

Could you join this starting debate: Talk:Kingdom of Hungary#What language versions to be used for naming former KoH counties?

--peyerk 16:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)