Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas

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Who is the most knowledgeable and well known historian over this topic?

I will find out for you, since this article is terrible and in need of much work on economic/social/historic background, and made mostly on biased comments by his opponents, the "unitarios" (as Sarmiento). The power of Rosas cannot be explained solely by saying he had a lot of cattle and had a strong personality that appealed the gauchos. There are also other inaccuracies. I will list them in terrible order also, since I'm not used to work in Wikipedia and not used to your customs and rigour standards.

1.- He didn't control the whole of the pampa cattle frontier, if you consider that it was distributed in different provincies and amongst different "estancieros" or large ranch owners. 2.- Can't tell which European expeditionary forces he defeated. This is doubtful. He did battle an Anglo-French force that tried to establish free navigation of the Paranà river (and free trade), but the battery that tried to stop the ships was defeated ("Vuelta de Obligado"). When I say defeated I mean that they couldn't fulfil its objective: stopping the ships. 3.- Besides the term "nation" applied to what at that time was a confederation of provincies with loose political ties (there was not even a Constitution accepted by all), Rosas could not be defined as a "dictator" for all the provincies. It's a bit more complex. He was indeed the more powerful caudillo, but he was not the only one. He was only in charge of relationships with other countries, and had no formal power over the other provincies and caudillos -even if, informally, he was the puppet-master. To reach to that position, he had to fight unitarios and federales (his "own" "party"/or faction - even if he was not very "federal" himself), and -probably- kill other caudillos, as Facundo Quiroga. 3.- "Rosas attempted to reincorporate Uruguay and Paraguay as Argentinean provinces..." This is inaccurate. The "Pronunciamiento de Urquiza", the act by which Urquiza, Entre Rìos "caudillo", declared its intentions of owerthrowing Rosas, was triggered by other political events, but mostly by Urquiza's intention of liberating its trade with Brazil and foreign powers in certain goods for its own profit. Also, the puny "unitario" force in Montevideo could hardly represent a problem for Rosas, even if he besieged through allies and own forces the city for a long time before. There are specific economic reasons that can explain the rise and fall or Rosas ("saladero" cycle and new agricultural/pecuarian cycles rising at his fall) that can better explain this. Britain was a major player in all this period, trying to find a valuable associate in the pampas to introduce its industrial goods and buy cattle and grain, and Rosas was not the correct person for doing this at that time. 4.- "Rosas wanted to rid Argentina of European influence and cultivate a feeling of nationalism among Argentinians..." Well, in fact commerce with European powers thrived in some periods under Rosas, so we can hardly say that he wanted to "rid" Argentina of their influence. European businessmen were established in Buenos Aires and were influent during periods of Rosas government

I really need more reading on the subject, but I'll try to help with a new article for this guy, who influenced the "country"'s life for a good buch of years. FLRD

Something that must be told

I just wanted to tell that this was the most ridiculously hilarious excuse to revert someone else's edit I've seen to this day on Wikipedia. No wonder this article sucks. --Lecen (talk) 14:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I wonder by what criteria it's called "iconic"? Arguably, the picture on the money would be the most "iconic". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

<sigh> Go and see the 20$ banknotes, the monument in Palermo, the monument in Vuelta de Obligado, the tomb in La Recoleta, the portrait at the hall of Latin American heroes at the Casa Rosada, the cover of "Todo es Historia" in the issue about Rosas, the cover of most books about Rosas... or just a basic google image search of the terms "Juan Manuel de Rosas". Everywhere it is either the portrait by Gaetano Descalzi or a derivative work of it. It is easier to invert the question: by what criteria can you deny that it is iconic? Cambalachero (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The current picture looks fairly much like the one on the money. The one Lecen had posted doesn't even look like the same guy. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Removal of soruced content

I know that Cambalachero is engaged in a fierce quest to whitewash Argentine history, turning good people into bad, and bad into good. Having said, I want to make clear that I will oppose any GA or FA nomination of this article. --Lecen (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

He didn't fight the British. He was an ammunition boy. He also didn't fight with the Migueletes. He was part of that cavalry corps but was sick during the entire conflict. Anyone who had actually read a single biography of Rosas would have known that. But someone who uses a website as source... I wonder if you will include Rosas' monarchism too. Because he was a monarchist and his daughter was acclaimed his heiress. Not only that but he wanted to annex Uruguay and Paraguay and create an Empire in the Plata. What about the fact that he opposed the "May Revolution"? Will that be mentioned too? Whitewashing, whitewashing... --Lecen (talk) 22:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

A thread has been opened at the Dispute resolution noticeboard

A thread regarding this article's lack of neutrality and wrong view of historical facts has been opened at the Dispute resolution noticeboard. The link is here. --Lecen (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

About the lack of neutrality, the biased view and arbitrary choice of facts added into this article

I created this thread with the purpose of reviewing the article and reveal all serious issues in it.

Sources

The best source in English about the life of Juan Manuel de Rosas is John Lynch's Argentine Caudillo: Juan Manuel de Rosas. This is the second edition of his biography and it was published in 2001. The first edition is called Argentine Dictator: Juan Manuel de Rosas and was published in 1981. It is regarded as the "definitive" biography of Rosas by Encyclopædia Britannica.[1] Hugh M. Hamill called it an "[a]lready classic biography of Argentina's most significant caudillo."[2] Daniel K. Lewis regarded it "[a]n outstanding work on the dictator and his historical significance".[3] Michael Goebel said that it is "a classic work about Rosas in English".[4]

No matter what edition you look after, both are universally used as main sources regarding Rosas in English-written books.

We do not need to stick to sources written in English when they are outdated merely because they are in English. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources, Wikipedia:Systemic bias and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Cost. The historiography of Rosas is a topic in itself, with books about that specific topic, and none of them considered Lynch even worth a single mention. Cambalachero (talk) 02:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Dictatorship

According to Cambalachero (also known as MBelgrano), the main contributor in this article, (see article's lead) "Argentine historians of the XIX century, such as Bartolomé Mitre, aligned with the Unitarian party, considered him a ruthless dictator" while "New historians of the XX century, such as José María Rosa, consider him instead a defender of national sovereignty". And he concludes: "historiographical dispute about Rosas is currently considered to be over, and most modern historians do not engage in it". In other words: only historians connected to Rosas' opposition regarded him a dictator, and that only in the 19th century. Since the 20th century he is no longer regarded a dictator and there is no doubt or dispute about it any longer. Wrong.

Every single work in English regards him a dictator. From Britannica ("...who was governor (1835–52) of Buenos Aires with dictatorial powers") to Lynch's Argentine Caudillo[5] and several other works which were conveniently removed by Cambalachero from this article.[6]

Even Rosas saw himself as a dictator: "I have always admired autocratic dictators who have been the first servants of their people. That is my great title: I have always sought to serve the contry". (Lynch, 2001, p.163) He regarded the dictatorship as best form of government: "For me the ideal of good government would be paternal autocracy, intelligent, desinterested and indefatigable..." (Lynch, 2001, p.75) A passage of Lynch's books is revealing: "In short, Rosas ws an absolute ruler. 'As he told himself', remarked the British minister Southern, 'he wields a power more absolute than any monarch on his throne.'" (Lynch, 2001, p.82)

It is not me who says that the dispute is over: it is the references, left at the respective section. Horacio González is more than just a simple author of the lot, he is the president of the National Library of the Argentine Republic. If he says that there was a paradigm shift in the way Rosas is considered, it is a voice to be heard. The current consensus means that modern historians do not explain the actions of Rosas based on personal impulses (such as evil, greed, hunger for power; or patriotism, loyalty), but on actual poltical contexts of the time. The Great Man theory is rapidly getting outdated everywhere, and it already did for Rosas in Argentina. The old manichaeisms are outdated. There may be an occational exception, but the body of the Argentine historians have left that stage long ago.

Are there books that use the word "dictator" to talk about Rosas? Perhaps. We shouldn't use a word merely because the usage is verifiable: we also have a rule to avoid Words that may introduce bias. If there is a dispute, we describe the dispute, we do not engage in it. Note as well that sources that make a mere use of a word in passing, without explaining the usage, do not count as "engaging" in the dispute. Cambalachero (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Elected governor or dictator?

This article, as written by Cambalachero, presents the idea that was en elected governor and that he was granted the "Sum of public power" (that is, the power to rule as dictaror) by a popular plebiscite where "[e]very free man within the age of majority living in the city was allowed to vote" (see "second government" section).

First let's talk about elections in Argentina and the role of the House of Representatives: "The House of Representatives remained a creature of the governor, whom it formally 'elected'. It was his custom to send his resignation to the House from time to time. It was never accepted, for the House of Representatives represented only the regime ... The assembly, lacking for the most part legislative function and financial control, was largely an exercise in public relations for the benefit of foreign and doemstic audiences, and it normally responded obsequiously to the iniatives of the governor." (Lynch, 2001, p.81)

What about Judicial branch? Let's see: "Rosas not only controlled the legislature but also dominated the judicial power. He not only made law; he interpreted it, changed it, and applied it. The machinery of justice no doubt continued to function: the justices of peace, judges for civil and criminal cases, the appeal judge, and the supreme court all gave institutional legitimacy to the regime. But the law did not rule. Arbitrary intervention by the execute undermined the independence of the judiciary. Rosas took many cases on himself, read the evidence..., examined the police reports, and, as he sat alone at his desk, gave judgment, writing on files 'shoot him', 'fine him', imprison him,' 'to the army'." (Lynch, 2001, p.81)

And the bureaucracy? "Rosas also controlled the bureaucracy. One of his first and most uncompromising measures was to purge the old administration; this action was the simplest way of removing political enemies and rewarding followers". (Lynch, 2001, p.82)

Rosas could rule over Buenos Aires province, but not over the rest of the Argentine provinces. Not at first, it's true. "The system of government Rosas and his colleagues operated was primitive in the extreme and completely lacked a constitutional framework. They did not govern Argentina. The thirteen provinces governed themselves independently, though they were grouped in the general Confederation of the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata. Even without formal union, however, the provinces were forced to delegate certain common itnerests to the government of Buenos Aires, mainly defense and foreign policy..." (Lynch, 2001, p.82) However, as time passed, "[h]is policy was to wear down the provincial caudillos [the rulers of the Argentine provinces], to conquer them by patience. In each of the provinces, he managed gradually to impose allied, satellite, or weak governors." (Lynch, 2001, p.83)

Ah, the myth of the "fake" resignations. I have seen that explanation sometimes, and I always noted a missing point in it: which was the purpose? If Rosas' power was so absolute, and he did not had the intention to resign, why bother with that charade at all? Ah, yes, of course he purged the old administration. Does Lynch give more detail about that "old administration" that he purged? No? It was the administration of Juan Lavalle, who took power by a military coup, executed the deposed governor Manuel Dorrego, and purged the old administration. Rosas purged Lavalle's men, and restored the administration that was ruling before the coup. That's how he got the nickname "The restorer of laws" in the first place.

The last paragraph is clearly faulty. The lack of a constitution does not mean there was no formal union: the provinces were still united by provincial pacts. That state of things was not created by Rosas, it predates his first term as governor. The provinces were not "forced" into it, and note that managing the foreign relations includes the payment of the external debt in the package. The provinces did not "delegate" their defense in Buenos Aires, it was a mutual defensive alliance. If any member of the Federal Pact was attacked, the other members would go to the defense. This benefits Buenos Aires (if attacked, it has allies), but also gave obligations (if other provinces are attacked, Buenos Aires must go to help) Cambalachero (talk) 03:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Elections under Rosas

"The system was a fraud and a farce: the government sent a list of official candidates, and it was the task of the justices of the peace to ensure that these were elected. Open and verbal voting, the rights of the justices to exclude voters and candidates whom they considered unqualified, the intimidation of opposition; these and many other malpractices reduced the elections to absurdity. Rosas frankly admited that elections had to be controlled, and he condemned as hypocricy the demand for free elections. His government, he told the assembly [the House of Representatives] in 1837, 'has sent many worthy residents and magistrates throughout the province lists which contained the names of those citizens who in its opinion were fit to represent the rights of their country, in order to favor their election, if so they wished.' In practice the Rosas lists were an absolute order, and those gauchos [the Argentine peasantry] who went to the polls did as voting fodder." (Lynch, 2001, p.50)

No, finally, let's talk about the plebiscite where the Argentines willing (or was it?) allowed Rosas to become a dictator: "The plebiscite was held on March 26-28 in the parishes of Buenos Aires city, and the electorate had to vote yes or no for the projected law... First, the plebiscite was held only in Buenos Aires city... Second, whereas normally only a few hundred people voted at elections, this time greater numbers participated. The result was 9,316 for the new law, 4 against. If we assume a population of some 60,000 in Buenos Aires and a voting population of 20,000, Rosas received a vote of 50 percent of the electorate, and even this portion urged to the polls by a mixture of official propaganda and pressure from activists. The menace exerted by Rosas' political machine was real enough, as shall be seen. For this reason the heavy abstentions were significant; to abstain was a positive and dangerous act, and for many people a militant one. Rosas never repeated the experiment." (Lynch, 2001, p.80)

State terrorism

Rosas was not merely a dictator, but he ruled with terror. The words "Terror", "Terrorism" and "Terrorist" have been often used to describe his regime, his practices and himself (and his allies). There is an entire chapter in John Lynch's work aptly called "The Terror" that goes from page 95 until page 119. Theodore Link and Rose McCarthy said that "Rosas brutally repressed any opponents. His spies, the police, and the military led a reign of terror. He had housands tortured and killed and many people fled the country."[7] David Marley said that "Juan Manuel de Rosas returns to the governorship of Buenos Aires, establishing a terrorist dictatorship..."[8] James Schofield Saeger said that "[t]rhough his terrorist organization, the Mazorca, Rosas made himself master of the country."[9] James D Henderson said that "The blocaked damaged the Buenos Aires economy and gave Rosas justification for a wave of terror against his domestic foes."[10] Jason Wilson said that "Juan Manuel de Rosas (sometimes spelt Rozas), the rich and well-bred landowner who became dictator of Buenos Aires and ruled with terror, lived..."[11] Carlos Ramirez-Faria said that "Juan Manuel de Rosas pacified and centralized the country through a liberal use of terrorist methods."[12]

Rosas could be pleasant and charming when needed, but according to John Lynch, "he was a hard taskmaster and could suddenly fly into a rage and emit threats of throat cutting like the vilest of his henchmen." (Lynch, 2001, p.86) But what was the Terror? This article mentions the Mazorca only twice. The Mazorca, or officially, the Sociedad Popular Restauradora, was the paramilitary wing of Rosas' regime. It was the equivalent to Fascist Italy's Blackshirts and Nazi Germany's SS. According to the article here at Wikipedia (unsurprisingly created and written by Cambalachero) about it, the Sociedad Popular Restauradora (or Mazorca) killed "nearly 20 in 1840 and 20 more in 1842." They actually executed around 2,000 people, if not more, from 1829 until 1852. (Lynch, 2001, p.118) There is no mention of the thousands of political executions and tortured people in this article about Rosas.

Expansionist plans

Rosas wished to annex Argentine neighbors, Paraguay and Uruguay. This was said by Paraguayan historian Cecilo Baez (Bosquejo historico del Brasil. Assuncion: La Colmena, 1940, p.75: "Para Rosas, Paraguay y Uruguay no eran sino provincias rebeldes de la Confederacion Argentina") and even by Argentine revisionist (that is, pro-Rosas) Pacho O'Donnel (Juan Manuel de Rosas: El maldito de la historia oficial. Buenos Aires: NORMA, 2008, p.300). John Lynch, on the other hand, believed that Rosas wanted to annex Paraguay and keep Uruguay as client state (Lynch, 2001, p.140): "Rosas had never recoginzed Paraguaya as an independent nation. He still called it the província del Paraguay and sought its 'recovery', aiming to extend the frontiers of the confederation to those of the old Spanish viceroyalty. Uruguay was an exception because its independence had been secured by treaty and its conquest would be extremely difficult. So it was improbable that Rosas wished to destroy the independence of Uruguay; it suited him better to reduce it to satellitle status, the natural destiny of a weaker neighbor."

There is not a single mention of any of this in this article.

Platine War

The international war between the Argentine Confederation and an alliance of the Empire of Brazil, Uruguay and the Argentine provinces of Corrientes and Entre Ríos is not even mentioned in here. In fact, Brazil's role is oddly downplayed: "Without ships, Urquiza sought the help of the Empire of Brazil as well. However, he thought that the Brazilian help would be of little use, and only agreed to accept them by the intervention of Herrera" and "...where Entre Ríos and Corrientes would lead the operation and Uruguay and Brazil would provide only auxiliar armies. Urquiza defeated Rosas in the Battle of Caseros, on February 3, 1852".

Actually, Rosas himself regarded Brazil as the main enemy and as the key player that led to his downfall. "Rosas had at that point [1851] a preoccupation and obsession: the Empire of Brazil" ("Rosas tenía en aquel momento una preocupación y una obsesión: el imperio del Brasil." (O'Donnel, 2008, p.300) Also important: "Rosas himself believed that he had been defeated not by the [Argentine] people but by foreigners. He asserted after [the Battle of] Caseros, 'It is not the people who have overthrown me. It is the macocos ["monkeys", a racist nod to Black Brazilians], the Brazilians." (Lynch, 2001, p.159)

The article also ignores that 12,000 Brazilians were about to invade Argentina when Rosas unexpectedly gave up after a single battle of that the Brazilian warships were blockading Buenos Aires.

Legacy

Cambalachero said in another thread: "Which proves that, unlike Hitler, positive views of Rosas are not at all a tiny minority, and are even sponsored by the Argentine state." Is this true? Let's see. The American historian William Dusemberry, in his article to The Hispanic American Historical Review, dated 1961, wrote: "Rosas is a negative memory in Argentina. He left behind him the black legend of Argentine history-a legend which Argentines in general wish to forget. There is no monument to him in the entire nation; no park, plaza, or street bears his name."[13]

What happened since 1961, then? When Rosas became, in the words of Cambalachero, someone whom many have a "positive view" and who is "even sponsored by the Argentine state"? The answer lies in another book written in English, Lyman L. Johnson's Death, Dismemberment, And Memory: Body Politics In Latin America. Let's see:

"Rosas supportes worked relentlessly... to repatriate their hero. They were aided by the growth in the 1920s and 1930s of the revisionist school of historiography that worked to rehabilitate Rosas' regime... Revisionists naturally focused on Rosas's strong suit as defender of national sovereignty... Also in the 1930s, the Pro-Repatriation of Rosas Committee was established, and by the 1960s it had become quite active, even seeking the aid of exiled former president Juan D. Perón. An ardent admirer of Rosas, Juan Perón, along with his wife Evita, had governed Argentina from 1946 to 1955, when he was ousted by a military coup... Perón was, in many ways, similar to Juan Manuel [de Rosas]: a military background, a popular base of power, strong nationalist sentiments, a life of exile...; and denigrated memory in the official histories of the nation... When Perón returned to office again in 1973, after nearly twenty years of exile, he appointed ... ambassador to England and gave him two specific charges... repatriate the remains of Juan Manuel de Rosas... the new president, Dr. Carlos Saúl Menem, who took office in July 1989. Having served as the Peronist governor of the province of La Rioja, Menem... capitalized on the populist tradition of Peronism and effectively employed federalist symbols from the Rosas era... Menem wanted to redraw the Argentine genealogical family tree, to displace Mitre's gallery of celebrities with a more inclusive pantheon."

Thus, the revisionist Pro-Rosas became a pewerful force (if we could theme it in that way) in the 1930s wheh it became common in the Western world to support authoritarian regimes. It was a dictator like Perón who supported the revisionism. And it were Perón's followers (the Peronism) like Menem and the Kirshner's couple that continued his struggle to rehabilitate a dictator like Rosas.

A good representation of how far-reaching is the goal of Cambalachero to whitewash Rosas' biography can be seen in the article Blood tables (created by Cambalachero and written by him). It is about a 19th century books about Rosas' executions. Cambalachero says in the lead: "The book was used as a primary source by the early historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas; modern historians consider it biased, inaccurate and unreliable." The source used? Carlos Smith's Juan Manuel de Rosas ante la posteridad, a revisionist work.

Another fine example of how biased the articles relating to Rosas have become at Wikipedia is Historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas.

What's happening in here is that Cambalachero is writing a series of articles through the view of a minority historical school with the purpose of following a political agenda. It's like someone else started working articles about Mussolini or about the Holocaust from the point of view of revisionists. And that's not how it's supposed to be. We could even add in a "Legacy" section something about the Revisionists, but not in the main body of text as it were a legitimate source. --Lecen (talk) 13:21, 17 December 2012 (UTC)