Talk:List of Lost episodes: Difference between revisions
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::While I completely support the outcome here (to put it mildly), I'd like to propose that any time there's a proposed AfD on a ''Lost''-related page, someone post (say, on the main ''Lost'' article) that it's happening, so that everyone has an opportunity to voice their opinions. Perhaps that was done, and I missed the notice, but in any case, I missed this AfD vote entirely. Votes that aren't publicized aren't nearly as useful as ones that are. -- [[User:PKtm|PKtm]] 18:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC) |
::While I completely support the outcome here (to put it mildly), I'd like to propose that any time there's a proposed AfD on a ''Lost''-related page, someone post (say, on the main ''Lost'' article) that it's happening, so that everyone has an opportunity to voice their opinions. Perhaps that was done, and I missed the notice, but in any case, I missed this AfD vote entirely. Votes that aren't publicized aren't nearly as useful as ones that are. -- [[User:PKtm|PKtm]] 18:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC) |
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:::I completely agree, it's difficult to get to these AFDs unless we specifically searched for it. It would be helpful if the person who starts the AFDs provided links in the related pages. [[User:ArgentiumOutlaw|ArgentiumOutlaw]] 18:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC) |
:::I completely agree, it's difficult to get to these AFDs unless we specifically searched for it. It would be helpful if the person who starts the AFDs provided links in the related pages. [[User:ArgentiumOutlaw|ArgentiumOutlaw]] 18:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC) |
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:::I concurr as well. I missed the whole straw poll and debate, too. Plus the meta-debate about the meaning of the poll. [[User:Bldxyz|Bldxyz]] 23:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC) |
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Redundancy / Merge
I am astounded by the level of effort and will that is being expended to try and defy simple consistency.
The whole point of this page (and other lists like it) is that so there is a short overview of each episode and to provide a encyclopedic and informative listing of episodes.
By boiling down Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2) per consensus into Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts, you are just boiling down each episodes to a few paragraphs and provide listing of episodes-- the exact same thing this article is doing without conforming to guidelines, naming conventions, and the design/consistency of most TV shows' episode listings on Wikipedia.
Yes, we like episode guides like Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2) to fill us in if we missed an episode, but I would submit that for the vast majority of Wikipedians that a list like this page is more **encyclopedic** and informative than (what seems to me, and I'm sure many people would agree) a long, linear article like Episodes of Lost (season x) designed to feed you the linear story of Lost. Here's an experiment: show Episodes of Lost (season x) and this List of Lost episodes page to someone who hasn't seen the series, the audience for a general-purpose encyclopedia-- and see which one they find more concise, clear, and consistent. I think our passion for Lost is blinding our judgement here-- we just like Lost too much just for an episode listing that is concise and easily accessible to everyone-- otherwise it just feels so empty!
P.S. I'm not that concerned about the issue of individual articles, but what's worrying to me is that you're purging huge amounts of content from Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2) with the new drafts at Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts-- and I think it's better to create additional articles on each article (although yes, there would be [gasp] 50 more articles to Wikipedia's 1 million already) and suffer its consequences (e.g. more pages to maintain and watch) rather than deleting all this content that make an Episodes of Lost page the ~300-something largest page on Wikipedia-- especially when many TV shows have long, blow-by-blow recaps of episodes anyway.
So, basically what I'm saying is: that this page is more encyclopedic and that it follows the convention of most other articles out there on TV shows. Plus, Episodes of Lost (season x) does not follow naming conventions while this one does, and it's becoming more and more like this page anyway (see Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts) with shorter and shorter summaries. I propose that this page become the "official" Lost episode page-- and the links to individual episodes on this page point to either episode subsections on Episodes of Lost (season x) or (preferably) to individual episode articles to save the content that will be deleted when the drafts go live.
Cws125 20:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
- Even though this discussion has been had a dozen times over, I feel like it's necessary to have again, so here are my replies to what you said above:
- The rewrite of the episode guides was done with very strict guidelines to provide a synoptic overview of the episode without fancruft. Having each episode in its own article invites vast amounts of fancruft, which we spend a great deal of time reverting. It's barely manageable with all of the episodes on the same page, I'd hate to think what it would be like with all of the episodes on separate pages.
- The goal of the episode guides is not to "to fill us in if we missed an episode", it's to provide a brief, encyclopedic overview of what happened in an episode. If we were writing to fill people in, each episode would be thousands of words long, whereas we have a guideline to limit episode guides to 500 words.
- I have a feeling that if the authors who do want separate articles get their way, they're going to make the individual articles, and then leave them for us regular authors to clean up. Trust me when I say we do far too much reverts and clean up of fancruft the way it is (you can look at my history as proof, especially during January and February). Bottom line is that Lost is not like every other TV series on Wikipedia quite. People treat it too much like a fansite, so the best way to maintain data is to keep it short and conscience. I welcome you guys to stay here for a month and enforce the guidelines we have set for articles. You will end up cleaning up so much fancruft that I think you'll end up agreeing what everything I'm saying.
- Jtrost (T | C | #) 15:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- Each and one of your arguments can also be used against centralization. Hell, it's even worst when you have it cloggered together because if the article is edited various times in the same day your watchlist will only show the last modification done on the article, ignoring the previous one. You say it's barely managable while being on one single page; one can argue that such thing happens because information is centralized.
- You say there is a guideline stating that summaries must be limited to 500 words, but that contradicts the natures of wikis, that is meta:wiki is not paper and therefore there are "no size limits in the Wikipedia universe". A guideline is just a guideline, it is not a rule, it is a recommendation.
- I do not know why do you think the articles will be "left to 'us' the regular editors" when in reality the article(s) can and will be edited by many people, 'regular' or not. The 'regular' editors do not own the Lost articles.
- Lost is a TV series, period, it's no different than The Simpsons, South Park, or 24 (in a descriptive sense). It will have fans the same way that those series do, and be prone to fancruft the same way that they do. Stating that Lost is "different" from other TV series on Wikipedia is a personal opinion, not a fact. It can methodically and systematically be treated the same way that the other series were.
- You say that the best way to treat it is by keeping it short, and this contradicts the nature of Wikipedia enormously. We are not writing summaries, we are writing detailed and concise articles. There are no limits.
- I beleive that the reason why you are cleaning articles so much is because you made a set of unrealistic guidelines in the first place. You need to understand that one of Wikipedia's philosophy is that "with many eyes, all bugs are shallow". We want everyone to contribute to articles, not only 'regular' editors.
- I have made a suggestion to you personally which IMO is the best solution for this. We can have List of Lost episodes and individual articles for each episode, while at the same time having articles such as Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2). Anyone can contribute to both formats.
- Please leave the page as it is. Considering the nature of the show, it is very common to refer back to other episodes for reference or to refresh one's memory and if they are all on separate pages, that will be more trouble. Thank you, Lost Fan 99
- First of all, thanks for engaging in the discussion, guys. If anyone has comments, please do... comment.
- Fancruft and maintainability
- Yes, I realize that some people on Wikipedia go on and on with brilliant but totally unnecessary prose that span paragraphs but can just be said in one sentence-- and that it will be harder to enforce guidelines with all these different articles.
- However, putting in comments something like this at the episode article might work:
- ==Plot==
- <--This article has a policy adopted by consensus at Talk:Lost (TV series)/PlotSummaryPolicy. The plot summary for this article:
- * should be limited to 500 words.
- * should not contain brilliant prose, fancruft, speculation, or original research.
- * should only mention events important to the central character and his/her flashback, events that relate to the ongoing or future story lines, and events that emphasize the Story elements section in the main Lost article.
- -->
- Blah blah blah here goes the plot summary blah blah blah.
- Two separate goals, two separate pages
- When I think of "brief encyclopedic overview" for the episode listing page, I'm thinking of TV Guide-style one paragraph overview (like the ones on this page), not five paragraphs of plot summary in which the whole thing is a spoiler (argh!) and is too much effort to read unless you're actually interested in that episode-- the new drafts are still the same thing, just trimmed down! What if I just want to know what the episode is about, like "Claire with Kate and Rousseau try to find the place where Claire was taken so they can find a cure for Aaron's illness."?
- WHY NOT just a simple episode listing table like this with brief summaries, production code, airdate, etc. (which is more pretty, encyclopedic, organized, follows naming conventions, and exactly what many other shows like Star Trek, Family Guy, have standardized on) and links to individual article pages for those who want the plot summary (or want to go into more depth into that episode)?
- Why not both indeed? I support a single page listing all Lost episodes with a very brief (one sentence) description that then links to the season episode summary pages. As a trial, I've linked the Season 1 episode titles on the List page to the summaries. Take a look. I don't support a separate page for each episode. I can't think of any TV series that merits separate episode pages in Wikipedia. Perhaps in a specialized Wiki (Memory Alpha for example), but 79 articles on the Star Trek original series episodes? Too much. Rillian 14:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, we can have both. I don't remember which TV show uses that format but I have seen it on Wikipedia. Alien vs. Predator (film) used this format (it was changed, don't know when). You can have a Summary section that is a short and concise paragraph describing the episode, and a Plot section describing the episode completely. Both need to have a spoiler warning. About the guidelines, you can not have any guideline that *limits* the content on articles, none. That guideline is absurd in Wikipedia. I have reverted your edit on List of Lost episodes, leave that page as it is, that is, an episode listing linking to individual articles. If you want to do that on Episodes of Lost (season 1) go ahead, but leave List of Lost episodes as it is. You need to browse other shows on Wikipedia so you can notice that we use that format already. For example, South Park has a listing of episodes where each episode is detailed in a Plot section (example: Cartman Gets an Anal Probe). —Joseph | Talk 17:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just wanted to state for the record that I'm with the idea:
- [[List of Lost episodes]] providing links to [[Episodes of Lost (season x)]] and [[Title of episode (Lost)]]
- [[Episodes of Lost (season x)]] - pages with a short (one paragraph) summaries of all episodes of the season
- [[Title of episode (Lost)]] individual pages with long, detailed description for every episode
- I think this way everyone will be satisfied. NowotnyPL 17:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just wanted to state for the record that I'm with the idea:
- Excellent idea. Would you be willing to help? =) For example, each episode has its own article but they need to be reverted back because someone redirected them to List of Lost episodes. I have been doing so but only when I get the chance to look at each episode individually. —Joseph | Talk 17:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sure... when it comes to cleaning/other technical stuff I'm there... Since english is not my mother language I'm not so good with the writing though... But I think before we start reverting things a strong consensus should be worked out... So what do you say Jtrost? ;) NowotnyPL 18:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- It's a great idea, as well-- except the names to better comply with naming conventions for TV series:
- [[Lost (TV series)]] points to [[List of Lost episodes]] as the official page for episodes
- [[List of Lost episodes]] points to [[Lost (season x)]] for brief plot summary
- [[Lost (season x)]] points to [[Title of episode (Lost)]] for long recaps
- [[Title of episode (Lost)]]
- This way, we can have List of Lost episodes for table listing and REALLY brief overviews without spoilers (like most TV shows out there), have something like Lost (season x) (like 24 (season 5), for example) for those who want a brief plot summary that follows the 500 words/no fancruft/etc guidelines, and individual episode article pages for those who want blow-by-blow recaps. Is there anyone who disagrees?
- Cws125 08:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent idea. Would you be willing to help? =) For example, each episode has its own article but they need to be reverted back because someone redirected them to List of Lost episodes. I have been doing so but only when I get the chance to look at each episode individually. —Joseph | Talk 17:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Fine by me. Only I would like to keep this nice tables we have in List of Lost episodes and only add [[Lost (season x)]] link above it if we follow the plan above. Something like this for example. NowotnyPL 13:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with the idea of putting the List of Lost Episodes as the official page for episodes on the Lost (TV Series) page. I think that the [[Lost (season x)]] should be more easily accessible, as I think many people looking for episodes summaries would want to go to the [[Lost (season x)]] page rather than the List of Lost Episodes page. I'm not sure of an adequate solution to this problem, other than to either feature both the list and the [[Lost (season x)]] on the main page or to have a link to each [[Lost (season x)]] page at the top of the List of Lost Episodes page. --Kahlfin 20:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's more encyclopedic to have List of Lost episodes as the official page for episodes-- for fans of the series, you'd probably want Lost (season x). But for the audience of a general purpose encyclopedia, I think an alamanac-like listing of episodes without plot summary or spoilers would be more in line of what they would be looking for and more accessible (less information, organized into tables).
- However, I do think your solutions to make Lost (season x) and List of Lost episodes coexist are brilliant. However, out of (a) have both Lost (season x) and List of Lost episodes on the main Lost TV page or (b) have a link to Lost (season x) at the top of List of Lost episodes, I would prefer (b) but I would be more than happy with (a), too.
- Cws125 00:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- ALIAS has been using the current format for its 4+ seasons and it seems to have worked fine for those pages. I think the current format is much more efficient, but I would be fine with both. --Kahlfin 19:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Consistency is vitally important to Wikipedia We can't just change convention willy-nilly just because a few people want to turn Wikipedia in to a fan site. I vote for a merge. OldManSin 03:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Having a detailed summary for each episode (per episode or per season) should be left for fan sites. Leave all the tid bits and trivia and cross overs for the fans to devour in their speculation. This site should only have this page for Lost episodes, but with separate pages for each season to keep things shorter and more to the point. -DJM. (fan of Wiki, not an editor and don't want to be)
Individual episode articles
To clarify my position, I support having a List of Lost episodes article. I don't support separate articles for each episode. The season summary pages are more than enough. Based on the lengthy and repeated discussions on Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2) there is not consensus among Wikipedians for having individual articles. Perhaps a straw poll will help? Rillian 19:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- See List of South Park episodes, List of The Simpsons episodes, List of That '70s Show episodes, tv.com's Lost episode guide, Lost's official recaps, Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, meta:wiki is not paper, and information overload. There's really no need to discuss the matter further. It has been done before, other websites do it as well (the official website being one of them), and we have WikiProjects related to this. Basically the reason behind it is that while you see it as 'nough, other readers and contributors don't. Episodes can have infoboxes, quotations, trivia, analysis, etc. There are contributors willing to help with such tasks. —Joseph | Talk 00:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've seen all those episode lists and most of them look like shit. I just went to one of the South Park episode pages, and I found a ton of spelling errors, crap grammar, way too much fancruft, and pointless trivia. So don't use that as an argument for breaking up episodes into articles. Danflave 17:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- There has been an absolutely collossal discussion at the talk page of Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television_episodes about the issue of separate articles (definitely much larger than the one at Lost) with every imaginable argument against and for each side-- however, I found their guideline on "Creating articles on television episodes" that was adopted by consensus to be quite reasonable and wondering why Lost shouldn't also follow it.
More important than having many articles on TV episodes is having good articles on those TV episodes. Therefore, it may not be a good idea to create small articles on every episode of a television show. However, it may still make sense to add information about a television episode to Wikipedia. The following process is a suggested method of doing so:
- First, create an article on the television show.
- Once there's enough independently verifiable information to do so, create articles on each season, or some other logical division, of the show.
- Once there's enough independently verifiable information included about individual episodes, spin the information from episodes out into their own articles.
- In my opinion, Lost definitely has enough information to justify spinning episodes off into their own articles-- FOR ORGANIZATIONAL SAKE ALONE, I would absolutely demand individual articles. I have failed to see an argument why Lost is special or unique enough to not have separate articles-- not general arguments against this guideline (e.g. increases my watchlist, more articles to police, etc.)-- and I feel allowing the episode subsections to become "article-size" in a new article away from the main article is better than someone constantly maintaining (deleting stuff from) the main article so that the episode subsections are "subsection-sized".
- Also, I found this quote (on the talk page of that article) from Jimbo Wales in 2004 (so his view may have changed) but I thought it summed up the argument precisely: "Why shouldn't there be a page for every Simpsons character, and even a table listing every episode, all neatly crosslinked and introduced by a shorter central page like the above? Why shouldn't every episode name in the list link to a separate page for each of those episodes, with links to reviews and trivia? Why shouldn't each of the 100+ poker games I describe have its own page with rules, strategy, and opinions? Hard disks are cheap. --Jimbo Wales" (emphasis mine)
- Cws125 09:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- You haven't seen an argument as to why Lost is unique enough? Lost has a completely linear storyline, and each episode relates to the next and many before and after it. And unlike other TV shows with linear storylines, episodes of Lost have details that can be incredibly important to the episodes before and after them (e.g. Locke and Boone, on their way to a plane, find the corpse of a Nigerian drug runner dressed as a priest; 14 episodes later, it turns out that this man saved Mr. Eko's life). This may not be the best example, but things like this happen all the time in Lost, and as such the episodes should be compiled in a format in which someone can get a general idea of the storyline at a particular point in the show, not an idea of what happened in a particular 42 minutes of the storyline that aired at a certain date. I know this from experience, as I once wanted to know a part of the Lost storyline that spanned seven episodes, and would have found this immensely difficult if I had had to visit seven different pages in order to find what I was looking for, especially if I had wanted to save it to disk and later paraphrase it. I think that when most people visit the Lost summary pages, they're there because they're looking for a general idea of the storyline at a certain point, not because they missed an episode and want to catch up. Lost is a continuous storyline, and thus requires a continuous page. --Kahlfin 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- That is an extremely weak argument. That '70s Show (List of That '70s Show episodes), Stargate SG-1 (List of Stargate SG-1 episodes), and Xena: Warrior Princess (List of Xena: Warrior Princess episodes) have linear storylines as well and their episodes are separated. The Sopranos is linear as well and recently some contributors have started to create individual articles for their episodes (List of The Sopranos episodes). —Joseph | Talk 23:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, in my opinion, the Lost storyline is more connected and detail oriented than any of the shows you mentioned. Second of all, the list format doesn't necessarily work for those shows either. Third, I wasn't disagreeing outright with the idea of a list of episodes, I was simply providing an argument as to why Lost was unique enough because Cws125 claimed not to have heard one. --Kahlfin 19:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- That is an extremely weak argument. That '70s Show (List of That '70s Show episodes), Stargate SG-1 (List of Stargate SG-1 episodes), and Xena: Warrior Princess (List of Xena: Warrior Princess episodes) have linear storylines as well and their episodes are separated. The Sopranos is linear as well and recently some contributors have started to create individual articles for their episodes (List of The Sopranos episodes). —Joseph | Talk 23:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, every show has fans who think it's totally unique and different from everything else. The fact is that regardless of what kind of show it is, it should still follow guidelines and precedent (and the ideals of Mr. Wales). Consolidating the season pages and writing individual episode articles worked well for the List of Futurama episodes and other pages; I believe it's what should be done here. CWMcGee 02:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wait a second... So you're saying that because it worked for Futurama that it's going to work for Lost because they're both TV shows (and have almost nothing in common besides that)? The guidelines and precedent may work well in general, but in my opinion I don't think they'll work well for LOST, and all personal biases aside, here's why: I think the current format is easier to read and research. Within the current format, if someone wants to look at any number of LOST episodes, they can easily do so without having to load many different pages. If someone only wants to view a particulat LOST episode but is confused because they do not know what happened at the end of the last episode, they don't have to go to the list, visit another page, and then go back to the page they were reading first. In addition, there's the point I made in the above paragraph: If someone wants to research and save to disk part of the LOST storyline that spans many episodes, they will have to save many pages, which is inconvenient. I know other linear storylines have adopted the list policy, and I'm curious as to whether they've considered this. That being said, it's not so much the list I oppose as much as the prominence that people seem to want to give it. I fear that with a list linking to 40+ seperate articles, the articles will no doubt be full of original research, fancruft and grammatical errors due to the fact that it will be much harder for the Wikipedia commmunity to watch 40-some (eventually 144) articles. By no means should such a page replace the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages as the main episode page for LOST. --Kahlfin 19:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, what do you think of maintaining both-- a season page (for season-wide plot summary) as well as an article page on each episode (episode-wide plot summary) like has been suggested above)?
- The main Lost TV show page would link to a standardized list of Lost episodes (this page) for an encyclopedic and bird's eye view of all Lost episodes, a format that is more consistent with other TV shows. That page would then link to [[Episodes of Lost (season x)]] (or Lost (season x) for better naming consistency), which is now being shortened into Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts with strict guidelines-- e.g. 500 words, no brilliant prose, no fancruft, etcetera.
- I think that's a good idea, except for one thing: I'm afraid that the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages will be overlooked by people who are new to the Lost pages and don't necessarily know about them. Here's what I think should happen: There should be links on the main Lost (TV series) page to both the List of Lost episodes and the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages. That way people can choose which one to visit. Are there any objections to this? Because if not, I'm going to add the List of Lost episodes page to the main Lost (TV Series) page and otherwise keep the Lost (TV series) page exactly the way it is. Does anyone have a problem with this? --Kahlfin 14:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- All of the content on the current Episodes of Lost (season x) that will be deleted would be saved on the article pages for each episode.
- Yes, there would be 40+ something articles, but seeing (a) how other fancruft-inviting shows with this format don't seem to be that problematic (b) we're saving content from deletion (c) and some people just prefer viewing articles on episodes (just click Next or Previous Episode to navigate), don't you think this satisfies everybody?
- Cws125 00:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wait a second... So you're saying that because it worked for Futurama that it's going to work for Lost because they're both TV shows (and have almost nothing in common besides that)? The guidelines and precedent may work well in general, but in my opinion I don't think they'll work well for LOST, and all personal biases aside, here's why: I think the current format is easier to read and research. Within the current format, if someone wants to look at any number of LOST episodes, they can easily do so without having to load many different pages. If someone only wants to view a particulat LOST episode but is confused because they do not know what happened at the end of the last episode, they don't have to go to the list, visit another page, and then go back to the page they were reading first. In addition, there's the point I made in the above paragraph: If someone wants to research and save to disk part of the LOST storyline that spans many episodes, they will have to save many pages, which is inconvenient. I know other linear storylines have adopted the list policy, and I'm curious as to whether they've considered this. That being said, it's not so much the list I oppose as much as the prominence that people seem to want to give it. I fear that with a list linking to 40+ seperate articles, the articles will no doubt be full of original research, fancruft and grammatical errors due to the fact that it will be much harder for the Wikipedia commmunity to watch 40-some (eventually 144) articles. By no means should such a page replace the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages as the main episode page for LOST. --Kahlfin 19:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- That's a preference. You would like it to be centralized, even tho individual articles are easier to navigate through. Your proposal is similar to how countries articles were developed years ago, until contributors found out that it was incredibly tiresome to edit and read an enormous article. Contributors then began to create summaries about sections while linking to main articles about a particular subject (example: History of the United States).
- Your format requires a user to download say, 50K, when he will only use the last 2K of the whole page. It's unnecessary, but you are forcing them to do so. I highly recommend that you read a book about web design. This kind of discussion has technical implications. It has been researched for years. Most users don't spend time reading long passages of text presented on a screen. A computer screen provides a limited view of a long document. Your first screen capture (1024x768 as of today, moving towards 1280x960) is what makes the user stay on the page. If you don't give them what they want in that space, they will browse something else. Long documents lose people. Links exists so you can create chunks of information that can be presented in a structured form. I understand your point of view and this is why I do not oppose that other contributors develop and maintain summaries by season, but allow other contributors to create individual articles as well. —Joseph | Talk 02:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree... plus, no one forces anybody to have 40+ pages in the watchlist... This is your choice... You don't want to keep track of all the changes in the episodes' articles...? fine... you don't have to... there are people who will... NowotnyPL 12:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- The point about a long document is a good one, however, I think it's best to keep both formats incase someone does want to look at the whole season. As for no one forcing anybody to have those pages on their watchlist, I agree with this as well, but I'm worried about who is going to do it. I know someone will eventually, because this is how Wikipedia works. But as most of the regular Lost editors seem to oppose the list (correct me if I'm wrong), I'm simply afraid that these 40+ pages will grow out of control with fancruft and speculation for months before anyone volunteers the time to watch them. I mean, sure, people will watch pages here and there, but I think it's going to be a while before every page is watched by a regular Wikipedian. --Kahlfin 14:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree... plus, no one forces anybody to have 40+ pages in the watchlist... This is your choice... You don't want to keep track of all the changes in the episodes' articles...? fine... you don't have to... there are people who will... NowotnyPL 12:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I really don't see how it's so much easier for someone looking at the whole season to scroll down a bit than it is to click a link on the side of the page. Furthermore, the "regular" editors not wanting do it is not an adequate argument. :( At any rate, do you really think smaller pages will end up containing that much more fancruft than a couple of giant pages? CWMcGee 18:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't say we shouldn't do it because regular editors don't want it, I said I was concerned about who's going to do it. I realize that it doesn't matter what "regular" editors want, but do we all want 50 bad articles that don't adhere to guidelines? Not that this is a reason not to do it, but I just thought I'd express concern. --Kahlfin 19:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I really don't see how it's so much easier for someone looking at the whole season to scroll down a bit than it is to click a link on the side of the page. Furthermore, the "regular" editors not wanting do it is not an adequate argument. :( At any rate, do you really think smaller pages will end up containing that much more fancruft than a couple of giant pages? CWMcGee 18:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- If we have individual episodes articles, which it seems we now do, should we delete Episodes of Lost (season 2) due to redundancy? --M@thwiz2020 01:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- There is a current guide under development at Talk: Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts, but since it isn't complete yet, we could either leave the article the way it is and have it be redundant until the new guide is done, or we could delete it and have no Episodes of Lost (season 2) page until the new guide is done. I'm really not sure which is a better option. --Kahlfin 21:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- The usefulness of the individual episode articles is still being disputed. The best course of action in my opinion is to keep using the articles with the episodes on one page until this is resolved. Jtrost (T | C | #) 18:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- If we have individual episodes articles, which it seems we now do, should we delete Episodes of Lost (season 2) due to redundancy? --M@thwiz2020 01:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- I Agree, I think it's much easier for people to have just a small list like the one in List of Lost episodes, then if one wan't more information they can click on it to see it's full information. Plus some episodes can go really deep such as Lockdown (Lost) and I bet you don't want to put that with other lost episodes and pile up god only knows how many episodes (or not) --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 02:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I Agree, I think it's much easier for people to have just a small list like the one in List of Lost episodes, then if one wan't more information they can click on it to see it's full information. Plus some episodes can go really deep such as Lockdown (Lost) and I bet you don't want to put that with other lost episodes and pile up god only knows how many episodes (or not) --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Flashback included = spoiler
Listing who is featured in the flashback in each episode on the List is a spoiler. Is it necessary to have this in the list? Rillian 19:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I don't consider it as spoiler and I think it should stay. NowotnyPL 19:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Second that. It is not really considered a spoiler to me. It's just telling you who is the character it is going to revolve around the most. Sfufan2005 20:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, but some of the episode descriptions do include spoilers, like "The clock counts down to 0." CWMcGee 20:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- So...? we are talking about flashbacks here, not the descriptions... Besides, there is a spoiler warning at the top... :/ NowotnyPL 16:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, ok. I didn't see the spoiler warning. 142.163.169.75 22:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- So...? we are talking about flashbacks here, not the descriptions... Besides, there is a spoiler warning at the top... :/ NowotnyPL 16:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, but some of the episode descriptions do include spoilers, like "The clock counts down to 0." CWMcGee 20:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Not to put too fine a point on it, but I wonder if there's a difference between a spoiler that tells people about the plot of an episode that has already aired as opposed to "speculation" or "episode descriptions" that stem from commericals or official website information about future episodes. I don't want to know who the flashback is about before the show begins, or anything else that might be found in TV Guide, so putting it here on the same page can spoil it for me. I guess it is my choice to read it or not, though. I just can't always avoid seeing details about a future episode while reading about a past one. Bldxyz 00:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Second that. It is not really considered a spoiler to me. It's just telling you who is the character it is going to revolve around the most. Sfufan2005 20:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Consensus to keep both formats?
From what I have read in this discussion, it seems that while there is dispute about where to put them, there seems to be a general consensus to keep both this page and the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages (by moving the current content on the season pages to individual articles and using the [Talk: Episodes of Lost (season x)/drafts] to replace the current [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages). As such, if there are no objections, I'm going to remove the mergefrom tags from both this page and from the Season pages. Does anyone have any objections to keeping both episode formats and/or to removing the mergefrom tags? --Kahlfin 19:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wait -- no. What is going on here? I am gone for 2 weeks and I come back and there are these hideously redundant episode guides?? Who are these "Joseph" and "Cws" guys? Why are these strangers dictating how long-term Lost editors should edit and maintain the page? These people are rudely imposing their whims on editors who have spent incredible amounts of time and energy on these pages. My question to "Joseph" and "Cws" and these other bullies who have suddenly shown up -- are YOU ALL going to be adding the 50+ new Lost articles to your watchlists? Are you all going to spend hours editing and cleaning up all the cruft and vandalism that these pages will attract? And don't use that argument that South Park and other shows have their own episode pages. I have seen those episode pages and THEY ARE CRAP -- absolutely glutted with spelling errors, bad grammar, outrageous cruft, pointless trivia, etc, etc, etc. I can't believe you people coming here and making these enormous changes and then abandoning all of us long-term Lost editors to take care of your mess. So NO -- there is NO consensus. I think having two episode guides is insane. KEEP IT THE WAY IT WAS. Danflave 17:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed that there is no consensus. We're trying here, collectively, to create a quality encyclopedia, folks, and a proliferation of fragmented articles pretty clearly has the precedent of doing the opposite (just look at the South Park and Simpsons examples that have been cited): poor grammar, spelling, tense, etc. We now have 40+ standalone episode articles with slightly varying text from the summary page, with cruft added daily in one or both places for multiple articles. What a fiasco, and we should set about putting all of these into AFD. Yes, let's keep it the way it was, and exercise absolute draconian control over the constant addition of "more more more" to episode summaries, so we can keep things short. "More" is not better, "more" is NOT encyclopedic in and of itself, "more" is just pushing us towards a junior high product in terms of level and sophistication. -- PKtm 20:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly, this a collective effort. Draconian control is contrary to Wikipedia's policies. I suggest that you read Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. While you may like draconian control, others have already argued that this is contrary to progress. About fancruft I suggest that you read Wikipedia:Fancruft which is NOT an official policy. It is still a hot debate simply because what you consider fancruft may be informational and useful to others. And about consensus, it seems that you haven't even read Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes, or meta:wiki is not paper. —Joseph | Talk 22:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- There has already been a discussion about this. Please read the following links: Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, meta:wiki is not paper, and information overload. About who I am, I'm a contributor, just like you. No one is dictacting anything, we are following conventions and consesus reached by other contributors (see Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes). About adding Lost to my watchlist, no I won't, because I don't even use the watchlist tool. I have had 0 articles in my watchlist for months. It helps immesively beleive me, articles are better built when many contribute to them, don't be overzealous about them. Like I said before, the 'long-term Lost editors' do not own the Lost articles. You need to understand that just because you dedicate more time to the Lost articles that other contributors, this doesn't make you its de facto manager. The articles will be edited by many (Wikipedia has 1,000,000 contributors), and not only by you or a small group. Keep this in mind. —Joseph | Talk 22:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Here's a quote from the centralized discussion: More important than having many articles on TV episodes is having good articles on those TV episodes. Therefore, it may not be a good idea to create small articles on every episode of a television show. What that tells me is that each show's editors must decide what's in the best interest of the quality of the articles. I think I speak for myself and many others here when I say that we strongly believe that the best way to maintain quality is to keep episode guides short and to the point on one page. We can hold a straw poll and see if that helps resolve our differences. Jtrost (T | C | #) 22:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- You speak for me, too, but up until now, as I've been one of the only ones even trying to keep the original episode pages, I was kind of hoping to work out a compromise. However, if a straw poll is the best way to resolve this, I'd definitely take your position. --Kahlfin 21:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)'
- Here's a quote from the centralized discussion: More important than having many articles on TV episodes is having good articles on those TV episodes. Therefore, it may not be a good idea to create small articles on every episode of a television show. What that tells me is that each show's editors must decide what's in the best interest of the quality of the articles. I think I speak for myself and many others here when I say that we strongly believe that the best way to maintain quality is to keep episode guides short and to the point on one page. We can hold a straw poll and see if that helps resolve our differences. Jtrost (T | C | #) 22:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Danflave, I respect your opinion-- but try to realize that some people think that the List of Lost episodes page (with sub-articles) is considerably more encyclopedic, prettier, and more standardized and that the current Episodes of Lost page is awfully long, full of fancruft and spoilers, and a little disorganized.
- I would prefer that the main article on Wikipedia on episodes of Lost to be nicely organized like an almanac and be more accessible for the audience for a general purpose encyclopedia, and link to additional articles for more detail. Some people prefer an episode-guide-like article with the plot summary all on one page.
- I think having two different formats is a good compromise, instead of degenerating into a cut-throat war of which one should be removed. I know there is some redundancy now between the individual episode articles and the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages, but that won't be an issue when the new drafts with the 500 words/no brilliant prose/etc. episode plot summaries go live on the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages.
- P.S. I think fancruft is definitely a problem with having separate episode articles. However, in my opinion, it's the lesser of two evils-- 1) constantly battling fancruft/quality/etc. when absolutely everything is all on one page since it leads to it having really super high visibility, or 2) having a really nice, accessible, short-and-pretty front page like List of Lost episodes that links to other subarticles-- when you have fancruft, it's on a less visible subarticle so it doesn't need to be as urgently fixed and isn't as bad.
- P.P.S. Could some of you point out some specific examples of episode articles of South Park or the Simpsons that have bad grammar, spelling errors, or outrageous cruft so that we have a better idea of what you're talking about? I promise not to fix them... :)
- Cws125 11:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Future Episodes
I believe that as long as the Template:Spoiler exists, we can show future episodes that have been conformed,, like 1-2 episodes ahead,, if you don't want to see it then don't cross the spoiler message!--Muhaidib 21:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Added Seasons/DVDs Table
hey there,, what do you think? Please say what you think here before removing it just like that! because if you just delete it I will put it back and tell you to say what you think right here, Thanks, and please improve it if you can, I am not really that good in wikitables (it took me a lil while to do that lol)--Muhaidib 04:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's cool--70.81.11.195 18:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Where did you get the season 2 DVD cover from and how do you know that is the final cover for it? Jtrost (T | C | #) 19:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- That's not the Season 2 DVD cover. If I remember correctly, that picture came out on a promo poster for S2 back in June just after S1 ended. See here for greater magnification. It says, "Premieres Wednesda, September 21 9/8C" which obviously would not go on a DVD cover. Rather, I think Muhaidib put it there just as a picture for S2, not as a DVD cover. --M@thwiz2020 21:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- you are absolutely correct, The cover as you know has not been released yet. and it would look Bad if I just make it blank, So I think it's ok untill the DVD cover is released to put this picture, what do you think?--Muhaidib 00:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- That's not the Season 2 DVD cover. If I remember correctly, that picture came out on a promo poster for S2 back in June just after S1 ended. See here for greater magnification. It says, "Premieres Wednesda, September 21 9/8C" which obviously would not go on a DVD cover. Rather, I think Muhaidib put it there just as a picture for S2, not as a DVD cover. --M@thwiz2020 21:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Number of discs
Don't the DVDs, both UK and USA, have seven discs, not five? Amazon.com's page says "24 episodes of seven discs", and living in the UK myself, I know that the UK version has seven discs (four episodes on the first disc and Exodus, Part Three on the seventh with bonus features). Squidward2602 15:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes there are 7 discs. Jtrost (T | C | #) 15:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- opss sorry about the mistake guys, its a free encyclopedia feel free to edit it :D, i have the DVD lol,, i don't know what was I thinking, there are 6 Discs and 1 bonus stuff disc--muhaidib (Talk | #info) 18:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Failed GA
This is basiclly a nicely formatted list, not really an article. Also no refrences which is a key. Thanks --Jaranda wat's sup 03:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Flashbacks in 'Dave'
I just finished watching 'Dave' and I don't remember anything about Libby having flashbacks, unless you count the couple of seconds of her right at the end of the episode which could easily have been Hurley's flashback. DJ Clayworth 20:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, this episode was totaly hurley-centric,,, in other episodes (remmember in season one) where a shannon episode included jack in the hospital,, they saw jack for a split-second, that doesn't mean the episode is shannon and jack,, also in what kate did you saw a split second of sayid,, ABC promised a Libby episode (You will get your Libby episode. This season. Source: Matt Raggs at The Fuselage),, although later on this note came out,, (Note that some source say the Libby episode may happen next season instead.),,, so who knows.. --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 23:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- This has already been discussed at [1] and it's clearly a Libby flashback. Rillian 00:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- No, it hasn't. I tried to say this at that discussion, but they seemed to ignore my argument. As Wikipedians, our standard is verifiability, not necessarily truth. According to the official podcast [2], it's a "Hurley episode". To the best of my knowledge, no verifiable source, much less an official verifiable source, has suggested otherwise. Until one does, it's Hurley-centric as far as we're concerned. --Kahlfin 14:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- No one is saying it is not a Hurly-centric episode. If the list includes who has a flashback in each episode (I feelt that is trivia and doesn't need to be in the list but as long as it is there), then it should list every character who has a flashback. Libby clearly has a flashback in "Dave" so she should be in the list, just like Walt's flashback is listed for the Michael-centric epsiode "Special". Why would Walt be listed and not Libby? Rillian 15:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- No, it hasn't. I tried to say this at that discussion, but they seemed to ignore my argument. As Wikipedians, our standard is verifiability, not necessarily truth. According to the official podcast [2], it's a "Hurley episode". To the best of my knowledge, no verifiable source, much less an official verifiable source, has suggested otherwise. Until one does, it's Hurley-centric as far as we're concerned. --Kahlfin 14:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- my friend Rillan, I totaly understand your point, please try to understand mine, As a lost fan I assume that you seen yesterday's episode (IF YOU HAVN'T DON'T READ ALONG OR YOU MIGHT GET SPOILED), remmember at the VERY end of the episode, Rose drops a medicine can and Locke in his wheelchair catchs it and hands it back to her, she says thank you and locke says your welcome and goes on, so that's clearly a Locke flashback, and we learn something in that split second, that Rose remmembers and knows that Locke can walk now. so would you put the flashback as Rose, Bernard & Locke ?--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 16:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly. There's nothing definitive that says it's Libby's flashback and not Hurley's, because Hurley is also in the flashback. While I've heard the arguments that it is a Libby flashback (It zooms in on Libby's face, Hurley doesn't know that Libby was there, etc.), there's nothing definitive to say that it was indeed her flashback. Walt's flashback in Special (the one with Brian, Susan and the bird) is different, because Michael is not in the flashback at all, and in fact is not even in the vicinity of where the flashback takes place. Up until now, the podcast has told us exactly whose the flashbacks are. Hearts and Minds is not considered a Boone and Sawyer episode even though Sawyer clearly is in it, Abandoned is not a Shannon and Jack episode even though Jack appears in the background, and as Muhaidib said, S.O.S. is not a Rose, Bernard and Locke episode. There are many other examples, but I think you get my point. A flashback with Hurley and Libby in it, even if it reveals something that Hurley doesn't consciously realize, is not considered a Libby flashback. --Kahlfin 19:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- my friend Rillan, I totaly understand your point, please try to understand mine, As a lost fan I assume that you seen yesterday's episode (IF YOU HAVN'T DON'T READ ALONG OR YOU MIGHT GET SPOILED), remmember at the VERY end of the episode, Rose drops a medicine can and Locke in his wheelchair catchs it and hands it back to her, she says thank you and locke says your welcome and goes on, so that's clearly a Locke flashback, and we learn something in that split second, that Rose remmembers and knows that Locke can walk now. so would you put the flashback as Rose, Bernard & Locke ?--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
- Why is it "clearly a Locke flashback" at the end of S.O.S.? Rose is there and witnessed the events. Locke is appearing in Rose's flashback. And along those lines, are we sure that Bernard has flashbacks as well in S.O.S.? Rose is in every scene while Bernard only appears when Rose is present. I suggest S.O.S. only has flashbacks from Rose's perspective and Bernard and Locke are appearing in her flashbacks. Rillian 16:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's not clearly a Locke flashback. Just like the flashback at the end of Dave isn't clearly a Libby flashback. I would agree with S.O.S. being just Rose's episode, except that our official, verifiable source [3] tells us that it's a "Rose and Bernard episode". Wikipedia's standard is verifiability, not truth, and thus we have to go with what the official source tells us, not necessarily what it actually true. --Kahlfin 19:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- I followed the link Kahlfin provided but don't see where it confirms that S.O.S. features flashbacks from both Rose and Bernard. Can you provide a more specific link? Rillian 01:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- Here's one [4]. It's a link to the April 10th podcast, in which it is stated that S.O.S. is a "Rose and Bernard episode". --Kahlfin 14:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that it is a "Rose and Bernard" episode. The episode "...In Translation" is a Jin/Sun episode, but the table lists only Jin. Any particular reason? Rillian 18:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- "...In Translation" aired before there were podcasts, so there's no verifiable source that tells us that it's a Jin episode or a Jin and Sun episode. Three of the flashbacks in "...In Translation" are obviously only Jin's because Sun isn't in them. Another only features Sun for part of the flashback, so we can believe that it's Jin's flashback. The fifth one could go either way. I guess along the way, some Wikipedian just decided that it was a Jin episode. I don't know what it is, but I think that since we were told that "The Whole Truth", an episode which is clearly more Sun-centric than Jin-centric, is a "Sun and Jin episode", we should probably change "...In Translantion" to Jin and Sun in the table. Any objections? --Kahlfin 19:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- OK, this is how I see it. Jin and Sun had separate flashbacks during Season 1 with one shared during Season 2. Sun's was "House of the Rising Sun" and Jin's "...In Translation". I come to this conclusion because I've watched both episodes several times and though the episode may feature the other character, it is still seen in the point of view of the person experiencing the flashback. "HOTRS" focused on Sun escaping and "...IT" focused on Jin's involvement with Sun's father. "...And Found" was a combined flashback since it features a flashback from both sides. "The Whole Truth" is clearly a Sun-centric episode because Sun remembered of her English lessons and how the doctor told her Jin was sterile which Jin would OBVIOUSLY not know. However for "Dave", I still feel this is a completely Hurley-centric episode and S.O.S. was completely Rose & Bernard not Rose, Bernard and Locke. Sfufan2005 22:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with you. However, the official podcast told us that "The Whole Truth" is a "Sun and Jin episode", not a Sun episode. Therefore, since as Wikipedians our standard is verifiability, not truth, we have to say that the flashbacks are both Jin and Sun's unless we can find another verifiable source that says otherwise. However, no official source has told us anything about the flashbacks in "House of the Rising Sun" or "...In Translation", so if we can come to consensus that the former is Sun's episode and the later is Jin's, then it can stay that way. --Kahlfin 18:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- OK, this is how I see it. Jin and Sun had separate flashbacks during Season 1 with one shared during Season 2. Sun's was "House of the Rising Sun" and Jin's "...In Translation". I come to this conclusion because I've watched both episodes several times and though the episode may feature the other character, it is still seen in the point of view of the person experiencing the flashback. "HOTRS" focused on Sun escaping and "...IT" focused on Jin's involvement with Sun's father. "...And Found" was a combined flashback since it features a flashback from both sides. "The Whole Truth" is clearly a Sun-centric episode because Sun remembered of her English lessons and how the doctor told her Jin was sterile which Jin would OBVIOUSLY not know. However for "Dave", I still feel this is a completely Hurley-centric episode and S.O.S. was completely Rose & Bernard not Rose, Bernard and Locke. Sfufan2005 22:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- Works for me. Sfufan2005 19:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- "...In Translation" aired before there were podcasts, so there's no verifiable source that tells us that it's a Jin episode or a Jin and Sun episode. Three of the flashbacks in "...In Translation" are obviously only Jin's because Sun isn't in them. Another only features Sun for part of the flashback, so we can believe that it's Jin's flashback. The fifth one could go either way. I guess along the way, some Wikipedian just decided that it was a Jin episode. I don't know what it is, but I think that since we were told that "The Whole Truth", an episode which is clearly more Sun-centric than Jin-centric, is a "Sun and Jin episode", we should probably change "...In Translantion" to Jin and Sun in the table. Any objections? --Kahlfin 19:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- I followed the link Kahlfin provided but don't see where it confirms that S.O.S. features flashbacks from both Rose and Bernard. Can you provide a more specific link? Rillian 01:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's not clearly a Locke flashback. Just like the flashback at the end of Dave isn't clearly a Libby flashback. I would agree with S.O.S. being just Rose's episode, except that our official, verifiable source [3] tells us that it's a "Rose and Bernard episode". Wikipedia's standard is verifiability, not truth, and thus we have to go with what the official source tells us, not necessarily what it actually true. --Kahlfin 19:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- Why is it "clearly a Locke flashback" at the end of S.O.S.? Rose is there and witnessed the events. Locke is appearing in Rose's flashback. And along those lines, are we sure that Bernard has flashbacks as well in S.O.S.? Rose is in every scene while Bernard only appears when Rose is present. I suggest S.O.S. only has flashbacks from Rose's perspective and Bernard and Locke are appearing in her flashbacks. Rillian 16:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Straw poll
Should we have a straw poll here to decide the fate of Lost articles? --M@thwiz2020 00:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Define what you mean. Are you concerned (as I am) about the proliferation of articles on minor topics? Or does this pertain to the episode summaries? Or something else? -- PKtm 00:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- So this is like a straw poll to decide if we should have a straw poll :p I think we should have one to decide if we should stick to single page summaries or have a separate page for each article. Jtrost (T | C | #) 00:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- sure, let's do that--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 02:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that having both is also an option. --Kahlfin 14:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- We currently have three formats in existence:
- List of episodes with really short summaries
- List of episodes with really long summaries
- Individual episode articles
- We have to decided which of the three to keep. Hence, a three-way straw poll? Keep it open for one week - I can't vote until Saturday, unfortunately :( --M@thwiz2020 12:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- We currently have three formats in existence:
- three?? really,, I only know about two, the one with really long summaries Episodes of Lost (season 1) and List of Lost episodes, which one is the one you got labled (#1) in yout list? --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 13:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Season 1 contains short summaries (under 500 words each) and season 2 contains long summaries (many are over 500 words). Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- ohhh,,, I though you mean like a third type or somthing like that lol, anyways it's too early in the mornin' for arguing,, so good mornin' guys :P,, got classes to go to ;),,, peace --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 13:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- ohhh,,, I though you mean like a third type or somthing like that lol, anyways it's too early in the mornin' for arguing,, so good mornin' guys :P,, got classes to go to ;),,, peace --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
- Equally, see the shortened summary work that's been done at Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts. I don't necessarily like the specific summaries in every case yet, but I do think that keeping each summary to a defined (and relatively short) length is one way of keeping out the incessant insertion of fancruft. -- PKtm 17:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Season 1 contains short summaries (under 500 words each) and season 2 contains long summaries (many are over 500 words). Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- sure, let's do that--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
You people are just complicating too much. There is obviously enough material for separate episode's articles so why not having a list of all and one for each episode? This has been tested and works perfectly. See Startrek or Stargate.--Tone 21:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Read the above discussions. There are plenty of arguments not to do this, and I'm not going to repeat them here. An article for each season has worked for shows such as ALIAS and 24. I definitely think that a straw poll is a good idea, but until we decide to do one (or not to do one), I'm not going to argue this much further. My point is that there is clearly divided opinion on the matter, and that not everyone would agree with you're argument. That's why I think a straw poll is a good idea; we need a definitive solution to this. --Kahlfin 13:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- What I meant was that we have:
- Short summaries: List of Lost episodes
- Long summaries: Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2)
- Individual articles: Lockdown (Lost), etc.
- We should have three straw polls. The first is should we keep the list, yes or no. The second is should we keep the longer pages, yes or no. And the third, should we keep individual articles, yes or no. Then we go from there to decide the actual content of the articles. --M@thwiz2020 00:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- well really the short-list and the individual articles are kindda one,, they link to each other, so it's really between the one with all the episodes included in the page or the one with the breif list that has details on episodes articles, so it's only two not three--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 01:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think the purpose of this page is to replace the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages. It's to serve as a list that links to all of the episodes across every season. Jtrost (T | C | #) 11:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but my previous experience is that the individual articles start out the same as the summaries on the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages, they just become different because people will edit one without editing the other. Hence, maybe we can have a poll with three voting options:
- Keep List of Lost episodes and Dave (Lost), etc. but delete Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc.
- Keep Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc. but delete List of Lost episodes and Dave (Lost), etc.
- Neither of the above (please explain what you want to happen)
- Will that work? --M@thwiz2020 19:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. This page originally linked to the episodes on one page, and I supported creating this page because I liked the idea of having a link to each episode on one page. So I would like to keep this page and the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages. I think the options should be (I have bolded the changes I made):
- Keep individual episodes Dave (Lost), etc. and redirect Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc. to List of Lost episodes
- Keep Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc. and redirect Dave (Lost), etc. to List of Lost episodes
- Neither of the above (please explain what you want to happen)
- Jtrost (T | C | #) 19:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. This page originally linked to the episodes on one page, and I supported creating this page because I liked the idea of having a link to each episode on one page. So I would like to keep this page and the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages. I think the options should be (I have bolded the changes I made):
- Yes, but my previous experience is that the individual articles start out the same as the summaries on the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages, they just become different because people will edit one without editing the other. Hence, maybe we can have a poll with three voting options:
- well really the short-list and the individual articles are kindda one,, they link to each other, so it's really between the one with all the episodes included in the page or the one with the breif list that has details on episodes articles, so it's only two not three--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
- What I meant was that we have:
![]() |
Poll: Which Lost-related Wikipedia articles should we keep?
Keep the episode articles and redirect the season articles to the list article
Keep the season articles and redirect the episode articles to the list article
Neither of the above (please elaborate below in the "discussion" section)Discussion
I hate to say this, Muhaidib, but if you are going to be monitoring the new Lost episode articles for spelling and grammar, then I am very scared. Danflave 15:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Another reason why the season articles should stay: Stuff like this will happen... a lot. Jtrost (T | C | #) 23:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know what to vote for but what happens when the LIST article stays? what happens to the SEASON articles? I think they should just have a season synopsis no details about the episodes, maybe links to them, is that option in the vote list? --No time87 18:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC) I'm remaining neutral but I want to stress the importance that one of these solutions are reached, because the current format (lists with recaps + articles), is crazy! Arru 19:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
People who write fancruft and speculative stuff about future episodes are going to do it anyway, whether it's on the main season page or on individual episode articles. I would prefer they do it on a very low visibility article than do it on a high visibility season article that needs to be constantly watched by a dedicated team of Wikipedians. And these low visibility articles *are* cleaned up-- take a look: ? (Lost), Three Minutes (Lost), Live Together, Die Alone (Lost). They're clean. Yes, they were bad at one point, but I'm also sure that the season pages contained speculative fancruft and bad grammar at points, too. You know, I seriously doubt anyone goes to a future episode unless they're *looking* for speculation. If they don't want to be spoiled, they're not going to go there. Yes, it's bad that these articles usually contain speculation and content of bad quality-- but some good Wikipedian is going to clean it up. I would prefer this stuff be banished to a low key article (e.g. a "seedy" district of Wikipedia) where it can be fixed without much ado instead of constantly battling these guys on the main season article where innocent users can stumble upon fancruft and whatnot if they're at the right place at the wrong time. Cws125 10:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
You know, this has gotten insane. If you notice, the dedicated Wikipedians who have been diligently editing the Lost articles for months all voted the same way. However, a large group of random, overzealous individuals came in and basically just made an enormous change to the Lost articles even though they've put no effort into the pages (nor will they most likely be involved in the new changes.) They're all being led by some guy who doesn't understand Wikipedia rules and actually CREATED an article of complete Original Research. I am with PKtm and JTrost. I am done with the Lost episode articles. I am still happy to help maintain the main Lost page and the Characters pages, but I am not going to let myself be stressed by maintaining 100+ episode articles. And can I please just add -- over and over and over, people keep using this argument about how The Simpsons and South Park all have episode articles and it's "worked out fine." I want to ask all of you -- what are you talking about??? I constantly see bad grammar, original research, misspellings, cruft, cruft, and ubercruft in all of these episode articles. It's atrocious. And now this is what we'll have for Lost. Thank you Muhaidib. I hope you will maintain these new articles with better spelling and English grammar than you've displayed in your Talk comments. Also, you really need to read this. Danflave 15:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
|
Rose and Bernard Main?
Wait, should all characters with flashbacks be main characters?
- well that's what I was hoping for,, but I guess they are still not credited as starring roles,, maybe later on, although bernard was really great this episode--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 05:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- well that's what I was hoping for,, but I guess they are still not credited as starring roles,, maybe later on, although bernard was really great this episode--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Future episode information and how to handle
The consensus arrived at elsewhere on Lost pages is that future episode information (e.g., whose flashback it is) can often be wrong or based on speculation from trailers for the episode, etc. This page should follow the same consensus, in my view, if we're to have it at all. Rather than just keep blanking it out, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this. -- PKtm 17:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. On one hand, I agree. However, on the other hand, if ABC releases five photos of Locke at a funeral, while it's still technically against official policy to say that it's Locke's episode (because to infer this is Original Research), I'm sometimes inclined to turn a blind eye simply because it's so obviously true (I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't, but I do). However, in an episode like Two for the Road (Lost) that is confirmed to guest star both John Terry as Christian Shepherd and Rachel Ticotin as Captain Cortez, I think to infer that it's Ana-Lucia's episode is blatantly against policy and should be reverted. --Kahlfin 14:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that sometimes it is obvious, but if we start making exceptions then where do we stop? Sometimes production notes leak onto the Internet. Should those be considered an official source? I think it's best to stick with the policy we've already passed and err on the side of caution. Jtrost (T | C | #) 14:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely. If Wikipedia were a fansite, that'd be a different story, but here, we have to be verifiable, encyclopaedic. Trouble is, in Wikipedia and its forms, if there's a blank cell in a table, people seem irresistibly driven to FILL it with something. -- PKtm 14:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Good point. From now on, I won't do that anymore. As far as I'm concerned, we should stick to official policy concerning future episodes, no matter what. If this whole seperate pages thing wins out (which I hope it does not), maybe we could even consider something as extreme as posting the official description, then proceeding to lock the page from edits until the episode airs. I'm not sure that there's another solution to this problem, except to keep reverting and removing. --Kahlfin 20:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that sometimes it is obvious, but if we start making exceptions then where do we stop? Sometimes production notes leak onto the Internet. Should those be considered an official source? I think it's best to stick with the policy we've already passed and err on the side of caution. Jtrost (T | C | #) 14:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I saw a picture of Ana-Lucia's mom (the captain) in the Two for the road episode, so I guess it's Ana' centric or it has her flashbacks --Crazy boy 555 21:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. It also stars John Terry as Christian Shepherd, so Ana-Lucia's mom's appearance could be a cross-over. Granted, it's more likely to be Ana-Lucia than Jack, but even if we knew for sure that it was Ana-Lucia's, actually editing the list or page to say that it is would be against official policy unless it's been confirmed by ABC, a cast member, or one of the writers/directors/producers. --Kahlfin 19:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The Foundation?
Just curious, but what is the source for the titles of the last two episodes for season 2? --Berger 17:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't belive there is one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't belive "?" or "Three Minutes" have been officially confirmed by ABC either, so I'm going to hide them until they are. --Kahlfin 19:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- It was wrong, the last episode of the season is Live Together, Die Alone--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 13:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. But wah, I wanted to learn about the Hanso Foundation, I bet the real episode will be just more cliffhangers like season 1 finale :-( --Jake11 22:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- yeah I know :( but they have to do this you know, if they don't keep us at a cliffhanger no body will watch season three, but the good thing is we'll find out alot of things before the end of the season :D --Crazy boy 555 04:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. But wah, I wanted to learn about the Hanso Foundation, I bet the real episode will be just more cliffhangers like season 1 finale :-( --Jake11 22:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- It was wrong, the last episode of the season is Live Together, Die Alone--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Days on the Island
For the first season, wasn't there only 40 days on the island and not 44 as it says in the second part of the dvd section.
- I believe you're right. I'm going to change it, at least until someone can cite it.
- No, it was 44. Locke said in "Adrift", (which incidentally was the same day Exodus and Man of Science, Man of Faith took place):
- KATE: We were in a plane crash.
- DESMOND: Where you now? And when was that?
- LOCKE: 44 days ago.
Squidward2602 09:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Season Colors
I think that (Salmon Pink) and (Pale Orange) are not really LOST colors; Don't you think? we should get blue or green. What do guys thinkk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy boy 555 (talk • contribs)
- Hi there Crazy boy 555, I see that no one welcomed you yet so welcome to Wikipedia. Here is something that you can keep in mind while you are here. Now back to your question, I don't really think it's that bad, I don't know who picks these colours but I think they are ok, Blue and Green are pretty good too so how about we make the third season blue ;) --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 23:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Muhaidib, I don't really mind the colors, but maybe for the next season we sould make a cool color--Crazy boy 555 05:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
"Faiths"?
The summary for "Lost: Reckoning" reads: The fourth recap episode for the series. This will recap the faiths of the survivors of Flight 815. I assume this is supposed to be "fates"? I'll edit the article accordingly, but I might be wrong, so I'm including this in Talk. Cromag 17:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- Well if that was official from ABC then i'm pretty sure it's what they said it would be. --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 13:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't live in America, I just download the episodes off of a university file-sharing program.
Erm, not that that's illegal at all, honest. But seriously, someone who lives in America and actually saw the flashback compilation should be able to tell us whether it was a collection of scenes that recap their fates or if it really does have to do with their Faiths. Remember Mr. Eko is a priest and Anna-Lucia wears a cross in some scenes. On a different note, cool choice of a username but isn't Muad'dib spelt with an apostrophy? Or is it just that you can't have punctuation in your username?
Numbers of seasons
Hey guys, (finally getting to know my way around wikipedia lol). How many seasons do you think lost will have? I really really hope it's three seasons, because I love lost and all but having too many seasons will kill me! --Crazy boy 555 04:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- No body knows yet, I think (and hope) it's just three --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 19:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know (or care especially), but I do feel the need to point out that these discussion pages are actually not for general discussion of Lost-lore, but are there specifically to discuss the articles and how to improve them. Speculation on the series duration etc. (i.e., other fan forum-like activity) thus isn't appropriate here; I'd suggest turning to Lostpedia for that. -- PKtm 02:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Desperate Housewives
Good morning guys and girls, I was just looking around at the Desperate Housewives (I don't watch it I was just bored) and I found something... in the List of Desperate Housewives episodes their episodes go as far as season 3! How come they don't follow the Future episode policy? thanks --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info | ) 13:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- Because the future episode policy we follow is one that we passed only for Lost. The authors of that article are welcome to make their own rules about future episodes. Jtrost (T | C | #) 14:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- really? I though it was like a wikipedia thing, interesting--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 16:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- really? I though it was like a wikipedia thing, interesting--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Consensus
![]() |
Reaching a consensusWe have to reach a consensus about which article to keep. The Poll was finished today with 22 votes to redirect the season articles and 12 votes to keep the season articles. How does it work? As I already explained, I don't want to DELETE the Lost season articles, I just want to make it a small and brief article that talks about the season in general, and have a link to the Lost episodes for more detail. Its really just common sense.
--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Wikipedia is not a democracy. There are plenty of TV series with articles on each episode, and more with articles about seasons and series. The rough consensus here is that each episode should have its own article, while the articles on the seasons should redirect to the list of episodes. I strongly recommend creating a template box with links to the previous and next episodes, to put at the end of each episode's page, so that people browsing through can go easily through the episodes. Finally, remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a fansite or a review site, so long reviews don't really have any place. Hope this helps. Stifle (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
|
Season Three
Why is the season 3 section hidden, yet it was announced by the producers.
- not enough info to show it, eg. a promo shot, season info, airdate, etc --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 03:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Awareness.
I've got the season 2 list of Lost Episodes in my watchlist and I look at it about four times a day, every day.
I often see people on the Talk page saying it should be changed into an index page with links to the individual episode pages, in the same way as South Park, Stargate SG1 and The Simpsons and I'm sure many others.
But I always ignore them because of the immense effort involved in making about 50 new pages. Despite the amount of time I spend on Wikipedia (And I love it, by the way) I still have a degree to study for.
This is the first time I've ever bothered to click on the discussion part. Now I see that there's already a page built like the episode lists for most TV shows I whole-heartedly agree with the idea of merging the two pages.
It looks like I'm too late for the Poll but if I had been there I would have voted to join the two.
I imagine there are many many others out there who watch Lost and edit Wikipedia who would agree that having them all in one long list like this is impractical.
The problem is awareness.
The only reason I bothered to click on the link is that all my friends are out tonight and there's nothing better to do. If only there was some way to raise awareness of the index page then maybe more people would vote to change it.
People like the status quo because there's too many different options and they often can't be bothered to research them.
If only we could use something more prominant than the little banner at the top of the page.
Most Wikipedia pages have some form of banner at the top, be it Proposed For Deletion or Cleanup or Merge This Page With [Whatever] or This Page Needs Sources.
To be frank, they melt into the foreground. Like roadcones or workmen's florescent jackets; they're designed to stand out but there's just so many of them that you don't even aknowledge their existence.
I don't know if it'd be feasible to have some other, more prominent announcement on the page that encourages you to look at the discussion, but it's worth concidering.
Perhaps the best way to deal with this issue is to change all the links to the long page with those to links to the index page, but leave the Discussion link in place.
Then if someone objects to the massive overhaul then they can go to the discussion to complain. But if they like it they will keep quiet and the page conforms to Wikipedia's standards for episode lists and then everyone's happy.
Just something to concider.
--Simondrake 23:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- No I think that this page is not that long, I mean the simpsons has 17 seasons and counting, LOST is not that big yet. and there are other articles that are longer then this, I say we keep it this way for now. Thanks for keeping an eye open :) --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 05:34, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Production codes
What is our source for the production codes? Are they best guesses or from an official source? Where did the 100/200/300/400 codes for the recap episodes come from? Rillian 19:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hi there Rillan, I got the codes from here. Thanks --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 16:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Images
For this to reach featured status, it would be good if people can explain the relevance of each screenshot in their individual description pages. In the case of images that aren't particularly descriptive of each episode, they should be replaced with ones that are. (For instance, the shots for Tabula Rasa, Whatever the Case May Be, etc). Sarge Baldy 16:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- That's a good poit, I would say that about %65-%75 of the images are discriptive of the episode, in your example of "Whatever the Case May Be", I belive that the image does explain the tension between Sawyer and Kate in which Kate tries to get the case --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 20:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- OK, well just as long as you can clarify that in the image's description. We basically need to make a "case" for each image as to why it should be allowed to stay on Wikipedia and how it's relevant to the episode. I guess people are pretty picky about how we use fair use images these days. But that seems to be the only obstacle to featured status at this point, so it's worth the effort. Sarge Baldy 04:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
- So,,, how do I "clarify" the image's discription?--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 05:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
- Go to the images and change the descriptions in a way that shows the importance of the image to people who haven't even watched the show. I've done the first episode as an example. [5] Sarge Baldy 06:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
- So,,, how do I "clarify" the image's discription?--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Just a note - the images for 'Do No Harm', 'The Greater Good' and 'Born to Run', and 'Exodus', Parts One and Two are all incorrect.
- Do No Harm’s is Boone's funeral, an event which happened in 'The Greater Good'.
- The Greater Good’s is Michael ill, an event which happened in 'Born to Run'
- Born to Run’s is Danielle, Hurley, Locke, Jack and Sayid at the hatch, an event which happened in 'Exodus, Part One'
- Exodus, Part One’s in inside the Black Rock - which wasn't entered until Part Two
- Exodus, Part Two’s is Jack and Locke talking at night - which didn't happen until Part Three
- Exodus, Part Three’s is the raft - I'm unsure whether the time of day is correct or not
I'd modify them myself, but I'm terrible with images. Squidward2602 14:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- ok :), done, if you would be kind enough to go to the List of Lost episodes and refresh your page (and clear your browser's chache) so the new images show up,, if there are any other images you want to me change please tell me :) thanks --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 15:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- ok :), done, if you would be kind enough to go to the List of Lost episodes and refresh your page (and clear your browser's chache) so the new images show up,, if there are any other images you want to me change please tell me :) thanks --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Homecoming picture is incorrect- that scene was never broadcasted EVER.
- are you sure? I think I saw it at the DVD --mo-- (Talk | #info |
) 14:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes i'm 100% sure- the fight scene that was shown at the end was between ETHAN and JACK not JOHN. In fact this is from a cut scene where initially the writers wanted to have the fight between ETHAN and JOHN- but as it was never aired I think you're better off putting another picture.
Season 3 Date Confirmed?
The article says that season 3 starts on October 4th, 2006. Where was this confirmed? ShadowUltra 00:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes
Lost timeline
I have just started a draft for a Lost timeline page, showing the events day-by-day from the airplane crash. It would be usefull? Shankao 14:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think this fits under the category of fancruft, and isn't encyclopedic. Jtrost (T | C | #) 14:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- This page might well not end up going anywhere, but just incase it does, there is a very comprehensive timeline here, which could be used as a sort of reference. Tomcage9 23:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Exodus part 2/3; Live Together, Die Alone part 1/2
This might already be answered or I might just be completely wrong, so if I am, I apologise, but this Wikipedia episode guide is the only place I can find Exodus part 2 split up into Exodus part 2 and 3, and Live Together, Die Alone spit up into part 1 and 2.
On the TV.com list of episodes, Exodus appears as follows:
Exodus (1) Exodus (2)
On this list, however, we seem to go on to split Exodus (2) up to also make Exodus (3).
This is the same for Live Together, Die Alone.
Also, according to the TV.com page, we have all the season 1 production codes wrong on this page, as Pilot, Part 1 aparantly has the production code of 100, then part 2 101, etc, meaning we are 1 ahead for every episode.
I hope somebody understands what I'm saying here. Tomcage9 23:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- TV.com is also editable by anybody and should not be considered a source for information on Wikipedia. As far as the parts of "Exodus", outside of North America the two hour finale was split up into three airings. Since Wikipedia is written for everybody and not just North American readers, it is split up by hour, not by episode. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lumaga (talk • contribs) 23:33, 18 May 2006.
I am not the kind of person to force my views on other people, so I won't, but I will say them. After looking at the page names for the episodes on the ABC website, I believe the production codes are as follows:
Pilot, Part 1: 100a (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/100a.html)
Pilot, Part 2: 100b (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/100b.html)
Tabula Rasa: 101 (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/101.html)
Etc, down to...
Exodus, Part 1: 121 (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/121.html)
Exodus, Part 2: 122 (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/122.html)
And then...
Man of Science, Man of Faith: 201 (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/201.html)
Down to...
Three Minutes: 222 (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/episodes/222.html)
I understand the point made about the fact that outside the US, Exodus isn't always shown as only 2 parts, it is sometimes split up further, but as this is an encyclopedia, my personal view (and that's all it is), is that Exodus should be left as part 1 and part 2, and Live Together, Die Alone should be left as one episode. If some country decided to split Exodus into 6 different parts, we wouldn't create Exodus, Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, etc. on this page. Tomcage9 00:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I would think that the abc.com website should be used as an offical source, and hence, if that site breaks up/consolidates a show, Wikipedia should display it likewise. Bldxyz 23:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Unexpected redirect
There was a lot of information at Episodes of Lost (season 2) which was recently wiped out, and the page redirected to this one. Was there consensus to do this? It seems like this messed up a lot of links, and lost a lot of information --Elonka 20:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know if there was consensus according to how I define the word. Perhaps there was a supermajority, followed by a neutral opinion. But if you take a look at the green and orange boxes above on this same page, you can see that the issue was discussed and debated (with some heat, I might add).
- In summary:
- Many people favored moving towards a list, linking to individual episodes pages. (What it looks like today.)
- A smaller, but not insubstantial, number of people favored the single season, Episodes of Lost pages. (What you point out is gone now.)
- Intepretation of the straw poll, including a meta-discussion on how to intepret polls, ensued.
- A third-party (an apparently neutral and qualified person) rendered an opinion that by my reading favors the episode list/individual episode page solution.
- Thereafter, consensus was not tested, nor confirmed.
- I suppose that is how things go, though. One of the sad byproducts about passion: hard for people to take things lightly enough to come to an agreement. Bldxyz 22:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- In summary:
Where has the Airdates of Lost article gone? -Ablaze (talk) 18:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- My mistake: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Airdates_of_Lost! -Ablaze (talk) 18:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- While I completely support the outcome here (to put it mildly), I'd like to propose that any time there's a proposed AfD on a Lost-related page, someone post (say, on the main Lost article) that it's happening, so that everyone has an opportunity to voice their opinions. Perhaps that was done, and I missed the notice, but in any case, I missed this AfD vote entirely. Votes that aren't publicized aren't nearly as useful as ones that are. -- PKtm 18:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- I completely agree, it's difficult to get to these AFDs unless we specifically searched for it. It would be helpful if the person who starts the AFDs provided links in the related pages. ArgentiumOutlaw 18:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- I concurr as well. I missed the whole straw poll and debate, too. Plus the meta-debate about the meaning of the poll. Bldxyz 23:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- While I completely support the outcome here (to put it mildly), I'd like to propose that any time there's a proposed AfD on a Lost-related page, someone post (say, on the main Lost article) that it's happening, so that everyone has an opportunity to voice their opinions. Perhaps that was done, and I missed the notice, but in any case, I missed this AfD vote entirely. Votes that aren't publicized aren't nearly as useful as ones that are. -- PKtm 18:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)