Talk:List of X-Men members

The current list

I have some huge complaints about the current list of X-Men. There are characters appearing in X-books that are not considered X-Men, yet there are characters that have been inactive for years (and NOT shown to be operating as X-Men) that are bold.

I say this needs to be fixed right away. First of, the characters that used to be on Utopia and have NOT been shown in any of the other titles since can be taken off as bold X-Men members. Warpath for example never joined Wolverine's school and has not been shown moving into the mansion or staying with the X-Men. Titles like Wolverine & The X-Men have done a good job showcasing the entire staff more than once and it is safe to assume, if a character hasn't appeared in an X-Title since 2010-2011 - then they are not currently X-Men.

Also, it's ridiculous to consider Scott's team part of the X-Men if you do not also include Uncanny Avengers and X-Factor (as well as X-Force.) If Cyclops, Emma Frost and Magic are to be considered X-Men (but simply rogue) as pointed out to me when I tried to edit, then so should Cable, Boom Boom, Forge and Colossus.

Also, X-Factor and the Uncanny Avengers are SANCTIONED by Wolverine (the current headmaster) and therefor should be considered branches of the official X-team. If we are including rogue X-Members as team members, then actual team members should also be included on the list, right? So, Sunfire, Havok, Polaris, Darwin and others should also be bold.

I think it's important to keep the page accurate. Either have all the CURRENT (and actual) X-Men Members bold (or have the rule that you use on some apply to all).

Please do not ignore or delete this - I just want Wikipedia to give out correct information. And having random people in bold and claiming that this is the current X-roster is pretty ridiculous. How about doing this right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MorbidChid (talk • contribs) 23:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll address this stuff more at a later date, but a few things:

1.) This is Wikipedia, so anytime you find yourself saying something like, "It's safe to assume"--well, it's not. You don't assume things that aren't actually in the comics, etc.

- Ariel said she quit the team. Mike Carey said she quit the team. She hasn't appeared since. She quit the team. Ariel has not been a member of the X-Men since she quit the team. If you read the comics, you might know this.

2.) When you add a new discussion topic to a talk page, please put it at the bottom of the page, not just inserted randomly somewhere on the page like this one and your Fiz comment.

- Sorry, I'm new to this. I didn't add it randomly, I thought it was suppose to go to the top. I apologize. The Fiz comment was meant as reply.

3.) Fiz fought alongside the X-Men during the "Twelve" storyline, but that doesn't make him an X-Man. Beast called him an honorary X-Man, which is why he's listed as such.

-I agree with that. I was more thinking about the other Skrull students being listed as students?

DeadpoolRP (talk) 00:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

First, just because you have a problem, doesn't mean that how you view it is automatically right. You say it needs to be fixed, but there are others that say it doesn't need to be fixed because it's not wrong. First things first, you need to realize that just because they are not currently seen in a title, does not mean that they are not X-Men anymore. S

- I didnt touch Lifeguard and Mimic. Both have not been active in the books for years but both were last seen as X-Men. So they are X-Men. The last time we saw Warpath, he was on an island fighting Wolverine's team. Why would anyone assume that he joined them off-panel. Shouldn't we wait for conformation that he joined the X-Men again? And Ariel quit on panel. And Husk also quit the X-Men on panel. What more proof do you need that they are no longer X-Men?

Similar to, just because they might not be teachers in the school, does not mean that they are no longer X-Men either. For example, lets use Psylocke. If she weren't in X-Force right now, we know for a fact that she isn't a teacher right now, and if we didn't have her in that, by your logic, she wouldn't be considered a member because she isn't serving as an official teacher at the school. - I'm not saying that at all. I just want people that are not with the X-Men, not to be labelled as X-Men. For example, the New Mutants were located in San Fransisco and were never a part of Wolverine's X-Team. Except for Karma. You can assume that they are still on a team, but the last team they were in was completely independent and none of the current X-titles have hinted at any of them joining the X-Men again.

As shown in Uncanny X-Force, members like Psylocke can act in a capacity as an X-Man without being a teacher, and just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't so.

Second, if you have to use the word "assume" to justify your arguments, just stop there, because that is not a way to justify any argument on this site because it is not a fact. Until we have seen them in something else or have them saying that they are done with the X-Men, then they stay bold.

- So instead of having a list of X-Men Members, we have a list of hypothetical X-Men members?

Next, look at how Marvel always portrays Scott's team. They're always listed as his "rogue band of X-Men" or some such similar take. In Marvel's eyes, they are X-Men, that is a fact, not an opinion like what you present.

- They are fighting Wolverine's team and this site makes it look like they are on the same team together. It's ridiculous. They are obviously not on the same team together. Why should they be listed that way?

Also, drop this whole "SANCTIONED" thing because it is nonsense. It is in no way a similar issue to Scott's current team because neither the Uncanny Avengers or X-Factor or Cable's team call themselves X-Men or are referred to as such by Marvel.

T-hey are X-Teams and X-Titles. The Academy X kids called themselves X-Men but they hadn't graduated.

Uncanny Avengers are an AVENGERS team, not an X-team. X-Factor are their own team who did a few things for Wolverine from time to time, that does not make them X-Men. Cable and his X-Force team are clearly doing their own thing away from the X-Men, and without their knowledge too, and have never referred to themselves as X-Men, so there is no reason to consider them as such. - Cable and his team are working just as independent as Cyclops - the last issue shows them even talking together. If Cable's team agrees with Cyclops or becomes his ally instead of being independent - would that make them X-Men?

And finally, to go character by character for some of the ones you've argued about. The last thing we saw Ariel do was leave with Rogue to go and join the school, which she said herself. Husk quit the school, doesn't mean she quit the X-Men, similar to Psylocke quitting the school but not the X-Men. The final issue of New Mutants said absolutely nothing about the team disbanding. Sunspot and Cannonball left the team to take time off, never said the whole team broke up, and they just happened to be invited to be Avengers during that time. In fact, in Moonstar's first issue of Fearless Defenders, issue #2 in fact, it was stated very clearly by her attackers, that they staged various distractions to keep her teammates busy while they try to take her down, so it is very much a fact that they are still together. Just because they aren't at the school, doesn't mean they aren't still X-Men.68.33.142.75 (talk) 01:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

- Whatever. I just wanted to see a List of X-Men that were actually members of the X-Men. Keep this convoluted mess the way you like it. I tried. It seems so illogical to have a bunch of inactive characters that we haven't seen for months or years listed as X-Men, while characters that appear in X-Titles are not X-Men. But whatever, I'm done.

Ok, get one thing straight. Having an "X" in a title that is not "X-MEN" with a team made up of mutants does NOT mean that they are X-Men. "T-hey are X-Teams and X-Titles" So? Again, that doesn't make them X-Men, so they are not labeled as such. X-Force and X-Factor =/= X-Men. "New Mutants were located in San Fransisco and were never a part of Wolverine's X-Team. Except for Karma. You can assume that they are still on a team, but the last team they were in was completely independent and none of the current X-titles have hinted at any of them joining the X-Men again." They never LEFT the X-Men, so why would they have to join it again? Wolverine even essentially gave his blessing in the final issue for them to continue on as a team doing their own thing which was proven in Fearless Defenders, which is a fact, not the opinion of yours that they broke up. Wolverine's team are not the only team of X-Men. Why is that so hard to understand? It's the same thing that happened when Schism came about. Two completely separate teams of X-Men, but still both X-Men. It's only been continued in a more extreme manner with Scott going to extremes to push how he feels the mutant race should be taken care of. "Cable and his team are working just as independent as Cyclops - the last issue shows them even talking together." Again, so what? The spoke to each other, that must mean they're in cahoots! No, it was Scott showing up on the last page and saying Cable's name, woohoo. It still means diddly squat until something is spelled out. You can't just jump to conclusions or form opinions and put them on here and expect them to stand without the facts to back them up. That is problem here. New Mutants never split up. I don't remember Ariel or Mike Carey ever saying she quit and the fact is the last thing we saw her do is travel with Rogue to the school. Husk said she quit the school, not the X-Men. Warpath, Mimic, and Lifeguard were last seen working with and listed with the X-Men, nothing said they left, so we don't say they did. You say they're hypothetical X-Men, but you're hypothetically saying they're not. 68.33.142.75 (talk) 03:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Hellions?

Shouldn't the original and King Bedlam Hellions be under "Enemies"?

Missing Villains

One of the first things I noticed was... where's Omega Red in all this? After noticing that, it's got me to thinking as to who else might not be there. Is there any more then?

Mirage

In point of fact, she was active as an X-Man in more than one mission. She appears on a mission in X-Men: Black Sun scouting the home of Dr. Strange in Greenwich Village for occult activity for Jean.

Copy edit

I just did my first (relatively quick) pass at a copy edit of this page, though I just got through the main X-Men team list, and it's still a rough edit. I also made a couple more substantive edits: I added Fiz the Skrull as an honorary X-Man (though I'd love it if someone who actually has ALL of those issues on hand could verify/expand the info), and I moved Lockheed to the main X-Men list because he's been listed as such in various Marvel handbooks (so his status isn't "other"--he's either an official member or an infiltrator, and I don't believe his "infiltration" went nearly as far back as his association with the X-Men; I mean, S.W.O.R.D. is a pretty recent organization, right?). Please don't do a blanket revert of my hours of work if you don't agree with something--discuss it here instead!

Oh, and does anyone know why the rule/line along the left-hand side (and top and bottom) of this page is so abnormal and how to fix it? Instead of having a solid gray line along the left-hand side, top, and bottom of the page (as appears to be the norm for Wikipedia--compare to the Main Page), this one has no line on the top and bottom of the page, and the left-hand side has a solid black line for most of the page's length, with sections at the very top and bottom with no line. Weird. DeadpoolRP

Fiz was an actual X-Man

Prior and after The Maximum Security storyline, Xavier takes it on himself to teach a group of Skrull Mutants. Fiz graduates and fought with the X-Men in some 1999 storylines. It's always bothered me that the Skrulls were never included on this page and someone can rectify it. - (User:MorbidChid) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MorbidChid (talk • contribs) 23:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Jean Grey

As stated in Phoenix Force Handbook, Jean Grey is dead. 200.164.174.243 (talk)Rainha Branca

New Additions

• i want to say we should include new additions in separate subsection like x-force strike team and uncanny x-force because x-force strike team was officially x-men team but uncanny x-force was wolverine's separate team and not included x-men(like deadpool,fantomex) and also wolverine's x-force is coming to end as part of marvel now! and then there will be a new pslocke's x-force team which we dont know yet whether will be a part of x-men or not.and as cable and x-force is coming in marvel now! so what's ur idea that it should continue cable's team section coz we know its also splinter team as cable is on run against uncanny avengers.
• . and i think there should be x-statix members section in splinter teams coz it was also a major splinter x-team.
• and x-factor portion is already divided into section i'm just giving it a more clearer view by slightly changing it.
• there is also a confusion sorrounding X-Treme X-Men coz it is written in this article that x-treme was storm's splinter team so then why have x-treme x-members been listed in official x-men members.shouldn't we create another splinter section for storm's x-treme team?? and also x-treme x-men vol. 2 is also featuring a splinter team of alternate realities mutants so we can also add them in also.
• wolverine and the x-men feature many new students like Broo,kid gladiator,genesis (apocalypse) so why are they not listed as x-men in training or students.

--Shoxee1214 (talk) 12:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

What approach do the secondary sources take for each of these cases? Morwen (Talk) 13:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Uncanny X-Force was still considered the same thing as the strike team Cyclops put together because while Scott wanted to end it, Logan picked it right back up with the same directive. We'll have to see what Psylocke's team does but it's likely it will be along the same lines. Cable's team also seem to be similar to his old one, so it would make more sense to do a new subsection within the current Cable led X-Force section.
• X-Statix is completely different from anything else on this list. They were a group who were using their powers to seek celebrity status, not to defend mutant rights or Xavier's dream or anything good like that. They're also already mentioned in the Ancillary teams section due to how little they have in common with the X-Men.
• X-Factor did not need that separation. That's what the gray boxes that separate the subsections is for.
• Where in this article does it mention that Storm's X-treme squad was a splinter group? Because everything I've seen has considered that team to be full members, hence why members like Lifeguard and Slipstream, who joined in that series, are on the main list. The vol 2 team would fit under the Alternate Reality team section toward the bottom of the page.
• Those characters aren't on there as they just likely haven't been added by anyone yet. 68.33.140.207 (talk) 14:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

you can see in "Genoshan Assault X-Men (2001)" wriiten "Magneto decides to strike after the Legacy Virus is cured. After losing many members when Storm started her splinter group X-Treme X-Men and Professor X was captured by Magneto, Jean Grey recruits a temporary team in Uncanny X-Men #392 (2001) in order to rescue Professor X." . so what now? was that x-treme x-men a splinter team or not? and by the way if you have read that book then you can see clearly that storm is running her own team away from the main x-men.--Shoxee1214 (talk) 15:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

and also why "xavier institute students" are listed in splinter section because it included "new x-men" and "young x-men" and those both junior teams were related to main x-men . infact they were their students then why have you put that whole "xavier institute students" in splinter section instead of substitute?--Shoxee1214 (talk) 15:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

So, what secondary sources state is not something you think should be informing this article at all? I've added a new section below regarding this, and I would appreciate your input. Morwen (Talk) 15:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Shoxee1214: Feel free to remove the phrase "splinter group" in regards to Storm's X-Men team in the description of the Genoshan Assault X-Men section if you think it's confusing. Storm is a long-term X-Men leader, and her X-Men team that starred in the first volume of X-Treme X-Men has been treated as an official, full-fledged X-Men team, both in the comics themselves and in Marvel's handbooks, just like the blue and gold teams were in the past, etc. And the New X-Men and Young X-Men are listed in the splinter section under "Xavier Institute Students" because they were originally interpreted to be just students and not official X-Men. However, Marvel made clear in its handbooks that they're an official subsection of the X-Men, which is why the X-Men-In-Training section was added to the official X-Men section at the top of the list. I would assume that the individual New X-Men and Young X-Men lists haven't been removed from the splinter section because no one has felt strongly enough that they needed to be removed, or out of respect to the amount of work put into those sections, or both. However, they are redundant and could be removed.

Morwen: I would imagine that everyone would be happy to add information to this list based on other secondary sources, but I don't imagine there are a lot of secondary sources our there discussing the nitpicky details of X-Men membership. I could be wrong, but if so, you'll have to point us in the right direction. And since its inception, the mandate of Marvel's series of handbooks has included, in addition to being a secondary source compiling information from Marvel's comics, the addition of new, primary-source information to fill in some of the gaps. DeadpoolRP (talk) 16:24, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

If there aren't "a lot of secondary sources out there", then that raises questions as to why we even have this list. This article needs a lot of work to be compliant with WP:WAF and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists. I'd absolutely rather see that done, but debating about how to properly interpret the primary sources is not the way to do that, and completely misses the point. As I say, the Official Handbook barely counts as a secondary source, but it's certainly not an independent one. Also, generally in policy it's the responsibility for someone arguing for information to be kept or added to source it adequately. It's not my job to "point [you] in the right direction here. Morwen (Talk) 16:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I interpreted your below call to discuss secondary sources as meaning that you wanted to collaboratively discuss secondary sources to help improve the article, hence my "point us in the right direction" comment. If I misinterpreted that, I apologize. At this point I'm not even sure if you want to improve the page or get rid of it, because you seem to be saying both. (And I'll never understand the antagonism some people have towards Marvel's handbooks.) DeadpoolRP (talk) 17:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd love to discuss potential secondary sources. But I can't find any. Clearly there are people here who are more knowledgeable about the X-Men than me, so I'm probably missing something. I seem to be saying both because I am saying both: if this article cannot be substantially improved, I would find it very hard to defend. Morwen (Talk) 17:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

68.33.142.75, you claim, "if you're going to undo the edits, then explain yourself next time". You didn't do that whatsoever when you deleted the new additons to Uncanny X-Force (Storm, Puck, Cluster, & Spiral). If that's not hypocritical I don't know what is, and no, I don't think everyone is out to "get me" as you claim, but you insist on consistency or reasons for edits when it's clear your standards don't apply to yourself. Practice what you preach and then it might be possible to have a constructive conversation, until then don't suggest I have meltdowns as though "someone punched my mother". Completely inappropriate, and yes, you do have a "tone". So then, why did you delete the additions? Tomahawk1221 (talk) 04:54, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Wondering why Tempus hasn't been added to the main list? I'm unaware of a codename for her new counterpart, christopher, but aren't these two new official x-men on cyclop's current squad? Secondly, it's now April, havn't Cluster, Puck, & Spiral officially joined Psylocke's X-Force squad? It just seems like these additions would reflect the latest rosters..