Talk:List of football clubs in England by competitive honours won

Fairs Cup

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It Should be Taken Out of the Article As it Is Not Recognized By Uefa.

Well it was a major trophy once so should be in there, but i agree that it should not be included with CWC and UEFA cup. Maybe a separate column would be more appropriated.Gero13 (talk) 00:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's about the same stature as the UC and UCWC, and the UCWC, while still official, is obsolete too. Pellucidity (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

It should surely be included as it is the early format of the Uefa Cup. The inter-toto however should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.97.116 (talk) 00:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

The Fairs Cup should be removed from the records as UEFA themselves do not consider them to be a UEFA Recognised competition:-

http://en.archive.uefa.com/uefa/news/kind=1/newsid=2571.html

Fairs Cup The UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in the 1971/72 season. The list of finals from that competition are listed below, but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record.

Super Cup & Intercontinental Cup

These Cups are frequently mentioned by various clubs as major Honours. Why sre they not included here?Gero13 (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

To win these cups you only have to beat one team... the achievement is in playing in them in the first place by winning the European or Cup Winners'/UEFA Cup, which is recognised in this table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Villafancd (talk • contribs) 09:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added the Club World Cup, as that is a tournament rather than a playoff (and FIFA wants it to be a big deal), since an English team has now won it. For consistency, that means including the Intercontinental Cup it replaced, which is not ideal, but with only one winner, it's not muddying the data much. Pellucidity (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if the Intercontinental Cup needed to be included, firstly because FIFA does not consider it a predecessor, it does not merge the records. And on the Club world cup, what ever FIFA wants it to be, it still isn't a big deal, I wouldn't consider it major. — CHANDLER^#10 — 07:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a good NPOV reason to exclude it, as FIFA includes wins in both in their club profiles. Pellucidity (talk)

I think that both the Super Cup and the Intercontinental Cup should be included as major honours. What about the FA Community Shield? - Sthenel (talk) 12:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The Guardian cite is reasonable NPOV justification for considering the Shield to be less important than the others. Pellucidity (talk) 02:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of football clubs in England by major honours won/archive1 for more info about what to and what not to include. Peanut4 (talk) 02:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I have taken a look at it, and I would agree the Guardian piece is the best cite going for major. That said, it predates the Club World Cup, which, as cited, FIFA considers an honor. The tricky part is this lets the Intercontinental Cup in, but since FIFA recognizes it, I don't have a good cite for excluding it. Pellucidity (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I am removing the citation needed for the information about the CWC and ICC, and providing the best thing I could find on FIFA's site. Please discuss here before reverting this change. I still question the necessity of providing citations here for information which appears unsupported in the main articles. Wikipedia may not be self-referencing, but it's inconsistent to say a fact needs a cite on one page and not another. Pellucidity (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Charity/Community shield not regarded as major by our source.

We take our definition of "major" from This disucssion 1n the Guardian. One off matches such as the Charity Shield or the European Supercup are excluded. The above thread explains previous discussion. Clarifying this issue was a significant issue when this became a featured list. Any change in the definition we use would therefore require talk page discussion and referencing to a WP:Reliable source agreed to be a better authority on this than the Guardian. Actually more than one source would be better.

This is inconsistent. According to that Guardian article, the FA Community Shield, UEFA Super Cup and Intercontinental Cup are not 'major trophies'. Yet in the table, in the European column, there is the 'ESC' which I assume is the 'European Super Cup'. So if the FA Community Shield isn't included, then the UEFA Super Cup shouldn't be included either. However, I think personally that all of the trophies included in that Guardian article should be shown here (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Community Shield, Champions League, Europa League, Super Cup, Cup Winners Cup, Club World Cup and Intercontinental Cup). Just because the Community Shield, Super Cup and Intercontinental Cup only take one game to win, it doesn't mean they're not major trophies. VoiceCom80 (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Inter-Toto Cup

Is this included or not? I have edited in Newcastles recent win as it seemed to be missing, however it would also seem that other winners are missing, Fulham for example and Aston Villa. I have not edited these (and others) wins of this cup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.97.116 (talk) 19:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that it oughtn't to be included as it isn't really a major trophy. But then why is its acronym included at the bottom?--Peter cohen (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we should remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.97.116 (talk) 00:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

The Intertoto Cup can't be considered a 'major trophy' because it had multiple winners each season and was basically used as a pre-season competition for qualification for the UEFA Cup. VoiceCom80 (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Totally agreed, Intertoto Cup isn't considered a major trophy, it was just a ticket for the UEFA Cup. - Sthenel (talk) 11:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Do we really need this article at all?

I don't think this article needs to exist at all. We already have the Football records in England article which features a full table of trophies won, and this can be adjusted by the user for easy comparison. This article basically repeats part of that table for no particular purpose. I'm thinking of nominating this article for deletion. What does everyone else think? VoiceCom80 (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

No, I like it. Provides a quick overview of all the trophies, not just the records page. Maybe they could be merged though. --Villafancd (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Corrected Table

I just reordered the table, and corrected some maths errors within. The new table is ordered by Total honours, then greatest number of domestic honours, then highest league wins, FA cup wins, League Cup wins, EC/CL Wins*, Other European Competition Wins*, International Competition Wins*, and finally just alphabetical order. (*These three aren't yet needed)

I chose this method of breaking ties because it rewards teams with success in different eras, as European wins are generally the result of other successes. One could also make a case for rating European successes higher, as they are generally more difficult to achieve, but this is only really a factor for teams with less than about 4 competition wins. I can see this being a problem if Fulham were to win the Europa League this year, as most would regard that as tougher than a League Cup Win.

If my current sorting system isn't agreeable, I would suggest ordering by Total, League, EC/CL, FAC, UC/EL/Etc., LC, ICC/CWC, Alphabetical. mpbx (talk) 19:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

European Super Cup

Shouldn't be in here. Teams are rewarded in this table for winning the European Cup/Cup Winners' Cup. This is just one tie. I'm pleased we won it but it shouldn't count as a 'major' trophy. Villafancd (talk) 11:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC) Agreed.Super Cup is just a one off match like the Charity/Community Shield.If it's included then so should the Charity/Community Shield of which it is the European equivalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.198.216 (talk) 05:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Charity Shield

you're having a laugh! Can we agree to get rid of this? Note the word 'major' in the title of the article. --Villafancd (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Liverpool should be top of this list

For a couple of reasons.

1) Major honours are the title, the two domestic cups, the European Cup, The UEFA Cup and the old cup winners cup. None of the rest are major titles. Nothing you can win by playing just one or two games is a major title so the world club cup should not be considered, it's an early season friendly tournament that nobody cares about. If it was important it would not be played in Japan where the time difference means very few people watch it.

2) Even as things stand, Liverpool should be number 1. Alphabetical preference is always taken in any table as since L comes before M, Liverpool should be ahead of Manchester United. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.180.194 (talk) 09:46, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Totally disagree with this.The World club cup is a FIFA run competition that in some areas of the world is seen as second only to the World cup itself.Sounds crazy but that is how it is viewed elsewhere.Only in England is it dismissed probably because most British clubs have failed in it especially Liverpool on four occasions of course.For a club not from Europe or South America to win it they need to win up to four games.A near full tournament.It is of far greater importance then one off matches like the shield or super cup.

As for Alphabetical what you seem to be suggesting is team beginning with A wins 10 league cups and team beginning with B wins 10 European cups.Team beginning with A is is placed above them despite winning much smaller competitions because of the alphabet.Nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 14:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense to include the World Club Cup and yet not include the UEFA sanctioned European Super Cup. The only reason to include the recently enacted World Club Cup is an attempt to artificially inflate Manchester United's trophy haul.

You could even argue that the UK's Super Cup in 1986 was a more major honour at the time. TheManWhoSaw (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

That is merely your opinion, and the reason for the inclusion of the Club World Cup and the exclusion for the European Super Cup has nothing to do with with club favoritism, but rather the fact that one represents the FIFA-recognized world championship and the other is merely a curtain-raising prestige match. Each of the titles included represent a particular achievement: the Premier League for the national championship, the FA Cup for the national cup, League Cup for secondary cup, Champions League/European Cup for the continental championship, the Europa League/UEFA Cup/Cup Winners' Cup for secondary continental, and the Intercontinental Cup/Club World Cup for world championship. What does the European Super Cup represent other than the beginning of the European season? -- Fifty7 (talk) 05:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I could not agree with Fifty7 more.I see no difference between the Charity/community shield and the European super cup.The World club cup involves several sides and carries a real title at the end of it - World Champions.

Regarding the Screensport super cup.As I recall this was a one off competition that was never repeated through lack of interest before the final.I also recall there was so little interest that the final was actually played in a different season to the rest of the competition! To seriously consider this as a major trophy you would also have to include numerous pre season trophies won by clubs.Surely this cannot be considered major on any level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 14:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Either stick to five major honours, or have all FIFA/UEFA sanctioned trophies

We have to remove all petty rivalries, there needs to be uniformity. There are a total of five major honours. The League Title, FA Cup, League Cup, UEFA Champions League, UEFA Cup/Europa League. Thats it. The UEFA sanctioned Super Cup, and the FIFA sanctioned Club world cup, are glorified friendlies, and in England are seen as such. However, if we are to disregard how they "are seen" and include official UEFA and FIFA sanctioned trophies, then both UEFA Super Cup and FIFA Club cup should be included. Regarding the club cup/intercontintal, it has never been taken seriously in England. Liverpool refused to play in the first two, and other two they did they arrived in Japan on the day of the game. Manchester United did not want to play in 2000, and only did so as the FA pressurised them so as not to affect the campaign to host the World Cup. The same year Manchester U played in the intercontintal 2 months before.. so they played in TWO world clubs in the same season (my goodness..two cracks at it), whereas for teams in the following years there was only one. Its a mismash event that is perceived as a nuisance. In conclusion, we either have the generally perceived major honours (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League, UEFA Cup), or we have all FIFA/UEFA sanctioned trophies. Its one or the other, we cant cherry pick bits from either.Chie one (talk) 15:14, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

"Glorified friendlies" is again nothing but a dismissive opinion, and nothing I argued or 194.66.238.27 agreed with has been refuted. -- Fifty7 (talk) 16:01, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone falsely edited Liverpool FC's record along with the addition of a wholly unnecessary obscenity. Someone else has removed Chelsea FC from the table altogether (if my eyes have not glanced over them). Should this page be locked to open editing as clearly some people are abusing it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.203.150.7 (talk) 19:17, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Minor honours

I hope I can come to this reasonably unbiased since my team (Chelsea) is about to enter the Club World Cup, but the CWC really isn't a major trophy at all. If you look at the build up to Chelsea's season, it really is being treated as a campaign for four trophies, with the Community Shield, the UEFA Super Cup and the Fifa CWC treated as friendlies and diversions. If we win the CWC and one of the four main trophies, we can't claim to have won as many major honours as Aston Villa any more than we could make that claim if we win the Super Cup again.83.244.128.162 (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC) I have to disagree with this.As mentioned elsewhere on this page the CWC carries a meaningful title - World champions.It involves the champions of all the continents and potentially can involve four games for a lower seeded club to win it.It's very highly regarded in South America and many countries in Europe.Personally I would consider it a major trophy for Chelsea to win this season.By contrast the Community shield is a one match domestic curtain raiser and the European super cup fills the same role for European football.The winners of these trophies carry no clear title and although they count as competitive games they surely can't be considered major. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhw99 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It involves too few teams to be a credible competition. Only two of the teams present are in the top what, twenty, fifty, maybe even one hundred clubs in the world? Anyone who thinks that winning it makes the winners world champions in any legitimate sense is lacking in understanding of the nature of sporting legitimacy. 86.16.249.132 (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)