Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)

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Archive to 1 Dec 2006 • Archive to Nov 2008 • Naming conventions (settlements) (Decision to use the AP Stylebook for major US cities (October 2008)) • Naming conventions (places)

USPLACE inconsistency confuses again

For those who claim the USPLACE convention to include the state name even when the place name is unambiguous does not cause confusion because it's inconsistent with how other articles are titled, including how most other place name article are titled, this time it is with regard to county names.

• Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Names of counties of Texas

--B2C 23:22, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• There is no indication anywhere in that discussion that anyone was "confused" about anything. They merely asked for justifications for the current policy, which I think you could probably provide, even if you clearly disagree. And, anyway, I could have sworn we just had an epic discussion about this that didn't end very harmoniously. AgnosticAphid talk 00:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Bibliography and place-names

Recently some difficulty has come up regarding the use of place-names in bibliographical listings. At Translations of Through the Looking-Glass, some editors, citing the Naming Conventions on geographic names, have changed a bibliographic citation from [[Westport, County Mayo|Cathair na Mart]] to [[Westport, County Mayo]]. Now I agree with the usual MoS naming convention: articles and general citations about Westport should be listed under that name and not under Cathair na Mart. But in a bibliography, the correct thing to do is to give the publication place as it is given in the book itself. Why? Because that is how it will be catalogued by libraries, in particular OCLC, the Library of Congress, and the British Library. In those editions of Looking-Glass the name "Westport" doesn't even occur. The point of a bibliographical entry is to help a person identify and find a book, and to do so, the information as presented in the book should have priority over a secondary translation by a Wikipedia editor. I propose that the MoS adopt a rule that in bibliographies, the place-name be given as it appears in the book (subject to script transliteration) and that it be pipe-linked to the article whose name should be the common name in English. -- Evertype·✆ 11:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I've written the text of this policy in the article. I hope the policy will be accepted, or modified with discussion and consensus. -- Evertype·✆ 12:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Since I was reverted, the phrase Wikipedia editor does not belong in there. It implies that translations by our editors are inferior to other forms of translation. Either we want to use translations in this case or we prefer not too. The source is not the issue and should not be raised. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I see your point. My view is that while translation is not really original research, in the context of changing the citation form that appears in a bibliography, it is bad practice to change Cathair na Mart to Westport in particular if the latter term does not appear in the book. Piping here is the appropriate place for the translation activity of an editor; but the editor should not be taking it upon himself or herself to essentially change the bibliographic information itself. -- Evertype·✆ 00:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

NYC neighborhoods

Can anyone explain the passage under USPLACE about NYC neighborhoods being named "Neighborhood, Borough"? Is that universal, or only when disambiguation is needed (the text is unclear)? I ask because my move request on Talk:Tribeca is not garnering any support despite the existence of this guidance. Powers ^T 15:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

A look at Category:Neighborhoods in Manhattan suggests that the use of ", Borough" is not mandatory. That surprised me; like you, I thought it was. MelanieN (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, presumably there was some discussion that led to the inclusion of that clause. I wonder how to find it. =) Powers ^T 14:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I found this section, with this entry at the end: "I added text to the US section to reflect the neighborhood naming standard used for New York City, which has been neighborhood, borough for quite some time, with "borough" being used as a qualifier in almost all cases. Alansohn (talk) 04:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)" Here's the diff. So no explicit discussion at the time it was added.

Later on, Vegaswikian recalled a borough discussion in the 2006-07 timeframe, but couldn't recall where: see this discussion. Haven't been able to find that. Dohn joe (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

"America"

I could have sworn there was guidance on usage of this term somewhere, but have not had much luck turning it up. While the average citizen of the U.S. will treat it as the common name for that country, others will use it collectively for the North and South American continents. No doubt there is an impact from wp:ENGVAR, but it seems an obvious thing to spell out. Am I looking in the wrong place? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I once looked for guidance, and could not find anything other than the DAB page at America. There should be something here. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 20:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Metropolitan/micropolitan areas and the like

Shouldn’t this guideline address how to title articles about areas named after a central city? For example:

• Columbus, Ohio, metropolitan area
• Columbus, OH metropolitan area
• Columbus metropolitan area, Ohio
• Columbus metropolitan area (Ohio)
• Columbus (Ohio) metropolitan area

Which should be used? This page provides no guidance for such titles, and many current titles omit the second appositional comma (Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area—which could be read to mean the Columbus which is inside the “Ohio metropolitan area”). Is this addressed elsewhere? If not, I think we need this for consistency’s sake. —Frungi (talk) 06:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• None of the above. It is Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area. It is written that way because it is the Ohio metropolitan area which contains Columbus. It is too much detail to put this into the guideline. Apteva (talk) 06:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

  I disagree with your interpretation, but regardless, I should think a single short sentence under WP:USPLACE would suffice: something like, “Articles about an area of a state should be titled [[X, State metropolitan area]].” How is that too much detail?

  On the semantics: In a web search for this particular subject, I find multiple formats, including ones I gave as examples and simply an unqualified “Columbus metro area”. So I maintain that it’s “(Columbus (Ohio)) metropolitan area”—the metropolitan area surrounding and named for Columbus in Ohio. But if it was referring to an “Ohio metropolitan area” containing Columbus, a comma wouldn’t even be appropriate at all. I would give counter-examples, but at the moment I can’t even think of anything else that’s named after something it contains other than “jelly donut” (not “jelly, donut”). I can think of things named for their leaders (which is arguably the case here), such as “the Obama administration” or “the Ming Dynasty”, but that’s really not the same thing as what you assert. —Frungi (talk) 07:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

There was a recent RFC which concluded that generally, articles on metropolitan areas don't have to include the state name unless disambiguation is necessary. I'd welcome a follow-up RFC asking how titles which do include the state name should be formatted, but I don't have the energy to start it myself. For what it's worth, I prefer the name of the area followed by the disambiguator ("Columbus metropolitan area, Ohio"). DoctorKubla (talk) 09:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• As concluded at the recent RFC, the title of this particular metropolitan area should be Columbus metropolitan area, as it currently is - because there is no other Columbus Metropolitan Area. For those few articles that need disambiguation (because there are metropolitan areas for more than one city of that name), I prefer the style Portland, Maine metropolitan area (no comma) as the most natural format - in other words I agree with Apteva. --MelanieN (talk) 16:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with the well-intentioned editors here about the need for a second comma after the state in such names. There's a relevant discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Do_article_titles_that_include_proper_names_need_to_follow_standard_grammatical_rules.3F

Basically, normally I wouldn't say this about hardly anything on Wikipedia, but I am willing to go to the mat on it being wrong to omit the second comma. It creates confusing and incorrect titles like Rochester, New York metropolitan area – which clearly suggests that Rochester is within the "New York metropolitan area" which is just wrong! It's an article about the metropolitan area in Rochester, New York, not an article about the New York metropolitan area of Rochester! English requires a second comma after parenthetical information like state names. I know tha some people don't like to include the state name, but if it is going to be included it really must have a comma. I implore all participants to think this through and separate the question of including the state from including a comma after the state when a state is necessary. I think adding a sentence about this to the main page would be helpful in clearing this up. AgnosticAphid talk 16:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Omitting the matching comma is a grammatical error. On the other hand, at least one guide says this formal requirement is changing in practice; the error is increasingly tolerated, making it not an error for some. But in WP, in writing for the widest possible audience, we strive to use style in support of clarity. There's no reason to move away from the formally correct punctuation that most clearly helps the reader to the right parse of the phrase. Dicklyon (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, Apteva would be correct in saying to omit the comma if he were correct that "it is the Ohio metropolitan area which contains Columbus". But it's not. As the article says, "The Columbus Metropolitan Area is the metropolitan area centered on the American city of Columbus, Ohio." So he's wrong; or she's wrong; either way, it's wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)