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::Regardless of the qualities and special features of Buddhism, unfortunately the thesis in this case in mistaken, Thirdid. Various branches of Hinduism also say that it is possible to become God. Moreover, there are certainly parts of the Vedas that allude to this, which would mean that this ''religious revolution'' could not be said to have originated in Buddhism. Believe me, I personally have great faith in the paths of Buddha - more so than in any other spiritual paths, but I am merely pointing out an error in your somewhat militant statement. ([[User:20040302|20040302]] 09:19, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC))
::Regardless of the qualities and special features of Buddhism, unfortunately the thesis in this case in mistaken, Thirdid. Various branches of Hinduism also say that it is possible to become God. Moreover, there are certainly parts of the Vedas that allude to this, which would mean that this ''religious revolution'' could not be said to have originated in Buddhism. Believe me, I personally have great faith in the paths of Buddha - more so than in any other spiritual paths, but I am merely pointing out an error in your somewhat militant statement. ([[User:20040302|20040302]] 09:19, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC))


:: Why? South korea only?? It's not nationalism, POV...I don't know other officially. Do you hear that I pass the Buddha exam? I realize?? In korea, newspapers notify it first. But I don't know any other.
* Why? South korea only?? It's not nationalism, POV...I don't know other officially. Do you hear that I pass the Buddha exam? I realize?? In korea, newspapers notify it first. But I don't know any other.
And, in buuddhism, exam system is most strict in the world. If some people who becomes the God, He must be identified by all living buuddha. Korean buddhism opened open exam festival two years annually.
And, in buuddhism, exam system is most strict in the world. If some people who becomes the God, He must be identified by all living buuddha. Korean buddhism opened open exam festival two years annually.
In the world, four living buddha is famous. tibet, vietnam, korea, cambodia monks. but I don't know that they all pass the exam.
In the world, four living buddha is famous. tibet, vietnam, korea, cambodia monks. but I don't know that they all pass the exam. -- [[User:Thirdid|thirdid]] 10:47, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

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Earlier parts of this discussion have been moved to Talk:Buddhism/Archive, Talk:Buddhism/Archive2, and Talk:Buddhism/Archive3.

supernatural vs. mystical

Okay, I'm back! Actually I haven't really been anywhere, but I've been ignoring some of these issues for a while. So, we settled on "mystical" beings? I object, but gently. I think that "mystical beings" is not a phrase is common currency, so it will sound weird to suddenly say, "we do not deny their existence", like if you said "I do not deny the existence of purple zebras," you would come across as kind of wacky. In fact, I'm not really sure that I know what "mystical beings" means. I don't see the downside of "spiritual beings" (spiritual roughly conveying "subtle bodies", or am I wrong?), but failing that, I think "supernatural beings" is acceptable and would be widely understood. On the other hand, I would still like to see us hash out the intro from scratch, which I will move towards doing when I get a chance. - Nat Krause 15:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, the only thing about supernatural is that one of us thought it sounded quite a ghostly, sort of medium word. My issue with it is to do with etymology; it doesn't make sense to classify devas, dakas, dakinis, bhuta, ghandarvas, pretas, yakshasa, rakshasa, etc. all as being supernatural. E.g. are dwarves, elves, dragons etc. supernatural? According to viking beliefs they are/were real beings, inhabiting the same 'dimensions'. How about bigfoot? Is bigfoot supernatural? No. Mystical? Well, yes in the sense that his existence is mysterious, non-obvious, and hard to see.
Regardless, I do understand the resistance to mystical. (20040302 13:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]
Yes, mystical is atrocious. I like supernatural because, while it isn't 100% apt, for the reasons pointed out, it conveys more or less the right range of meaning in English. I forget, did we already discuss "superhuman"? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽
Mar. 2, the meaning that you are worried about people taking is not so far off, is it? Especially if we also include categories of demons and hungry ghosts. I don't think "mystical" is appropriate unless maybe if we're talking specifically about Buddhas and bodhisattvas. "Supernatural" does have etymological problems, but it has such a standard conventional gloss that it is probably the clearest thing we can say.
Interesting how we each have our own pet phrase we would like to use instead. Hopefully, we can agree on "supernatural" as a second best. Wouldn't "Superhuman" make it sound like we believe in superheroes? "While Buddhism does not deny the existence of Superman and Spider-man, it does not ascribe power for saving the day to them." - Nat Krause 09:13, 13 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
Hahaha lol. No, I am very happy with supernatural - yes! We all have our own preferences, and I guess supernatural isn't too bad. Superhuman would be a mistake, but Kukku was merely being provocative about it. (Buddhism would never say that pretas were more significant than humans).
Mythological may be better, though most people identify the word to mean fictional nowadays, so let us stay with supernatural. (20040302 05:04, 14 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]

Pictures

I have no scanner to hand, but SURELY we can find a better image than that one? It looks like an early-90s PCX! - prat 01:00, 2004 Apr 15 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a picture of Buddhists (e.g. monks or nuns), especially as this article is Buddhism.. (20040302 05:12, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC))

File:Konchog-wangdu.jpg This one? What do you have?

Yeah, I think that's better. Personally, I've got no idea to look for images that are usable under the Wikipedia license. After I get around to buying a camera, I'll try to take some pictures of stuff over here. Could probably also get permission to use some images from my temple back stateside, but I don't know if any of them are of general enough interest to be useful. - Nat Krause 16:32, 13 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - I just replaced the gilded picture, forgetting the context! thanks Nat for moving the photo to a more appropriate position. (20040302 05:05, 14 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]

Ok, I'm not really sure how to do this but here it goes. I have several pictures of Buddhist sculpture and one of three monks that I got as a comp download with some imaging software. I assume they're public domain. How would I know for sure? I'd be happy to upload them. Don't know how to add signatures and such yet. My Winki SN is AtticusFinch

Please see your talk page, AtticusFinch. -- PFHLai 05:37, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

Hinayana/Shravakayana/EBS/Nikaya terminology

I'm moving this discussion here from Talk:Schools of Buddhism, because it affects multiple pages and I want to make sure that all the concerned parties notice it. I also brought this up a few weeks ago on Talk:Hinayana, but, at the time only 20040302 responded, so I'm not sure if anyone else read it.

Nat K.: Hey, Prat, I'm not sure I understand why you switched the "Nikaya" category back to "Early Buddhist schools". It seems to make less sense. We're listing Theravada there, but Theravada is not just early but also current (and not terribly early, either). We also list Japanese schools like Ritsu that were founded in the latter part of the 1st millennium CE, much later than some of the schools in other categories. The reason that I had in mind for having a Nikaya Buddhism article was that it would provide an umbrella term linking Theravada to the other non-Maha-non-Vajrayana schools, regardless of vintage, and this seems like just the sort of situation that calls for it. I suppose we could have a separate category for "Early Indian schools", but the current set-up doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Then, in the text, it refers to these schools as Shravakayana, provides two links to Early Buddhist schools, and one to Nikaya Buddhism. So we have three different terms for roughly the same thing, none of which are the most common term that most people are familiar with, which is Hinayana. We can consider calling the whole thing Shravakayana instead of Nikaya, but I think there are downsides to that that should be discussed. - Nat Krause 16:47, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, must have missed this update, it's been ages since I've been spending much time with wikipedia now (a week!). From memory, I hadn't seen the phrase 'Nikaya schools' before, so did a web search. It turned up much less hits than Shravakayana in its myriad romanizations, so I was going to use that, but must have decided on something reasonable instead. Shravakayana is just a redirect to Early Buddhist Schools or vice versa anyway. I am against using Nikaya schools purely because I'd never read it until I got here and saw someone use it, and google turns up few uses - leading me to believe that it's not, actually, a commonly used phrase. We are all aware of the problems with the term 'Hinayana'. prat 23:35, 2004 Apr 28 (UTC)
I don't think one can really say that any term for this school is a commonly used phrase, other than Hinayana. I had originally wanted to put the equivalent of the Nikaya Buddhism article under Hinayana, which resulted in the great Hinayana debate that wracked the internet and, dare I say it, all of America a few months back. 20040302 argued passionately and fairly convincingly that the word Hinayana should not be used in this sense, not on the grounds that it is derisive (he doesn't think it is), but on the ground that it is inaccurate and unclear. Shravakayana is a euphemism that some people use to be more polite, but it is no more accurate or clear than Hinayana. I don't think simply to say "early Buddhist schools" is sufficient, because it is awkward to apply it to schools that existed after the early period, such as Theravada or the Japanese Ritsu. Furthermore, even if it is empirically true that the early schools were all Hinayanist (to use the term in its conventional Western sense), they are logically separate concepts. "The early Buddhist schools were Hinayana" is a cogent statement, whereas "The early Buddhist schools were early Buddhist schools" is not. Or, what if new empirical data comes to light in the future? How can you say, "New evidence indicates that Vajrayana may predate early Buddhism?" if that is the only way you have to describe it?
Shravakayana appears to have a little more currency than "Nikaya" in this sense, but I don't think it is a major difference. Surprisingly, the wikipedia described Theravada as a Nikaya school before I ever got here -- I think that's the doing of that guy a c muller. I found about 600-650 responses on google for "Shravakayana" and "Sravakayana" together, and about 270 for "Nikaya Buddhism" and "Nikaya schools" together. And, looking at this way, we assume that all of the Template:Shravakayana references are talking about it as a school (which they aren't -- a cursory glance shows that a lot of them are talking about a style of practice as conceived of by Tibetan Buddhists); and that none of the other 30,000+ responses for "Nikaya" are talking about it as a school (if 2% of them were, that would equal the responses for _ravakayana). As an aside, I would note that Thich Nhat Hanh seems to prefer to call it "Many Schools" Buddhism which means roughly the same thing as "Nikaya."
Basically, none of these expressions is commonly used. I don't think most educated people will know what we mean unless we say Hinayana. If we're going to be stuck using an obscure term, we might as well pick the clearest and most accurate one, to avoid the possibility of having to change it again in the future -- in my estimatation, that’s Nikaya. In a lot of situations, we might also want to have a note pointing out that this is the same as what most Western people call "Hinayana." - Nat Krause 03:10, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Some babies just won't sleep, eh?! Hinayana still needs a lot of editing, but I guess it is not so bad. The first sentence could include a link to Nikaya just as it does to early buddhist schools. Personally I think that the argument against 'Nikaya' because of it's lack of popularity is poor - a word or name does not have to be popular/non-popular to be accurate. IMHO we will always be misleading if we use Yanas (<--- which severely needs a rewrite) for classifying schools.
The entire classification of Buddhist tradition into Mahayana / non-Mahayana seems pretty unstable, and I suspect that the trouble we are having with 'Sravaka/Nikaya' is to do with finding an apposition to 'Mahayana'. Is there really a good argument for splitting Buddhism into two, and if so, is this actually the right point (acceptance/non-acceptance non-pali-canon sutras) to do it?
In brief (but maybe for different reasons) I agree with Nat on maintaining Nikaya. We can still add a redirect from Shravakayana and Hinayana early on. (20040302 05:14, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC))
Well now we have three articles:
Leaving aside for a moment this interesting state of affairs, I agree that the Mahayana, non-Mahayana division is unstable and unnecessary and I think we can merge the Schools of Buddhism article's Mahayana schools in to the tree under the 'Early Buddhist schools' heading, and eliminate the division. Somehow merging the Tibetan traditions might be somewhat more difficult, but is no doubt possible (esp. Tiantai). We could then write a list of schools or a summary of the history and influence of the various commonly cited divisions (Mahayana, Theravada/Hinayana, Vajrayana/Tibetan) in a short paragraph for each division on the Schools of Buddhism page. Does this sound OK? prat 07:28, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)
Well, I guess that doesn't sound like a bad idea. But, if I understand the proposal right, we would still be splitting Buddhism up into schools, just that they would limited to "Tantric" and "Sutric", no? This classification seems novel enough that it might get perilously close to "original research" rather than "just the facts, ma'am". On the other hand, I think Wikipedia gives too much importance on the "original research" issue -- I mean, you can't write an encyclopedia without doing some research (Hinayana is a good example of that). But I'm still not sure how this will work in practice. As a thought experiment, I went ahead and merged EBS with Mahayana on the Schools of Buddhism page. What about other contexts? For instance, what should we say about Theravada in the intro to that article?
I fully concur with Nat regarding original research - indeed any collaborative work which involves substantially different backgrounds of the collaborators will end up being original research. Take for instance the Mahayana/Hinayan divide discussion. We are attempting to root out 'Just the facts, ma'am. Something that is not always straightforward. (20040302 05:12, 14 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]
FYI, Shravakayana is not a redirect; at the moment it's a disambiguation page pointing to early Buddhist schools and Hinayana. And I wouldn't say that Nikaya Buddhism looks like a dictionary entry. It's an article on the etymology and use (or lack thereof) of the term. To me, it makes sense to have most of the meat of that subject at Theravada, with some at early Buddhist schools and some at Pali Canon. - Nat Krause 09:30, 3 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]


Hi, I changed the title of the sections "three yana" to "three schools of buddhism". The concept is totally Tantric. Theravadan won't recongised three wheel/vehicle concept. I also killed Hinayana and switched to Theravada or Theravadan. This isn't a place to offend other shcools of buddhism. FWBOarticle 13:17, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

History of Indian Buddhism

I've been hoping that some kind soul would take me up on writing a Decline of Buddhism in India article, because, while I know several things on the subject, it's such a big topic that I don't where to get started making a complete article. However, the moment seems to have been brought to its crisis by the fact that some guy came along and added some history to the Indian Buddhism page. I didn't want to just delete it, but it's still uncomfortably incomplete sitting there the way it is now. If anybody wants to go over there and flesh it out, it would be a good idea. Even if you add one sentence, the article needs it.

PS: I have plans to write a little bit about vegetarianism and add some something to Western Buddhism real soon. I mean it this time. - Nat Krause 16:32, 13 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I absolutely cannot help with the delcine of Buddhism in India, as I know nothing about that. I did contribute some history on Indian Buddhism per se (i.e., the 18 schools) on the "Schools of Buddhism" page (I think), which perhaps could be summarized somewhat on the "Indian Buddhism" page as well...or maybe what we need is separate pages on "Early Indian Buddhism", "The Decline of Buddhism in India," and "Neo-Buddhism"...or maybe we need to merge "Early Buddhism" and "Indian Buddhism" or....there's also the "Early Buddist Schools," to be accoutned for. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽

Texts for Wikisource

If anyone knows any Buddhist texts in the public domain or released under the GFDL [this] is the place to list them. There's nothing there ATM. Shantavira 19:17, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There's a "Buddhism in a Nutshell" explanatory page (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/nutshell.html) with a lot of info, and this copyright notice:
Copyright © 1982 Buddhist Publication Society
For free distribution only.
You may print copies of this work for your personal use. You may re-format and redistribute this work for use on computers and computer networks, provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use.
Otherwise, all rights reserved.
Is this kosher? Also, I assume the entire Pali Cannon is in the Public Domain. Translations, otoh, may not be. Quadell 14:17, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Um...the Pali Canon itself would have to be public domain, I guess, but the individual translations and the published editions (especially scholarly ones) needn't be so.कुक्कुरोवाच
This does need to get done!

I can think of ACIP, but that's all OTTOMH (20040302 21:13, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC))

Re: recent edit by Heartjewel

Heartjewel recently added this:

"There are two main branches of Buddhism: the Mahayana with an emphasis on attaining enlightenment through the development of bodhichitta; and the Hinayana with an emphasis on attaining liberation from samsara through the practice of moral discipline."

to more or less the very beginning of Buddhism. Now, the article already provides a discussion of the three vehicles that has been the subject of considerable out-hashing, and I don't think we need the discussion broached at the beginning of the article, but this can be the subject of further discussion. In any case, this division is fairly suspect, and would have to be heavily reworked, I think. Also, wouldn't it be "bodhicitta"? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 23:05, May 13, 2004 (UTC)

'bodhicitta' Well, both spellings are generally used. I prefer the lack of the h, but then those who do not have any experience with the asian languages have difficulty with pronouncing it.
Regarding the division though - yes. I still agree that the division remains deeply suspect, albeit incredibly popular. Regardless, Heartjewel is mistaken regarding the hinayana - both of these divisions depend upon the three higher trainings (sila/samatha/jnana), though mahayana traditions use the meme of six perfections, whereas the theravada prefer the eightfold path. Regardless, we should pull it until HeartJewel has something to say (20040302 04:42, 14 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]

"Books" section

Huh. Obviously if this stays, it should be standardized to whatever the standard is ("Further reading" or somesuch, I think). But should it stay? Certainly one such text, apparently limited in scope, is a bad thing. But do we remove it or just plaster lots of texts there? Or create a separate page for a big list of buddhism-related books? Or list buddhism-related books in a lump on terms and concepts and then link to that lump? Or.... -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 01:04, May 17, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I took it off. It seems crazy to think that there is one book that deals with Buddhism! Moreover, a book written by a catholic (Williams is radically ex-buddhist at the time of authoring this book) about Buddhism seems even more crazy. (20040302 07:50, 17 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]

Reply: Your reason for deleting my book recommendation is absolutely unfounded! Williams is an internationally renowned expert, whose introductory book "Buddhist Thought" ranks among the best ever written about this topic! Here´s what none other than Richard Gombrich (Boden Professor of Sanskrit, Oxford Univ.) says: "I found this one compelling reading, for the ideas are presented with logical cogency and stylistic clarity. The summary of the Buddha´s own views would be hard to better." [By the way, do you think one has to be a Nazi in order to be able to write competently and objectively about Nazism ...?!]

Well, he was internationally renowned- and indeed his book "Mahayana Buddhism" is often used as a collegiate textbook. However, people change. Moreover, someone who wishes to equate Buddhism with Nazism is unlikely to win support for their choice of books. Regardless, I think that no-one actually resists William's book being here as an interesting sholastic work, but that it alone represents a culture and set of traditions that span half the globe over 2500 years pushes the boat out somewhat, do you not think? So, why don't we start to compile a set of core literature here on Talk - and then when we have a list that does appear to be useful for the many audiences of Wikipedia, well then we can post it on the main article. But, friend, while there are just one or two books, let us compile the list here?! (20040302 19:31, 17 May 2004 (UTC))[reply]

Reply: Don´t twist my words, I certainly do not wish to equate Buddhism with Nazism as regards ideological content! My argument from analogy was merely aimed at the nonsensical claim that a Catholic or any other Non-Buddhist--per se--cannot write competently and impartially about Buddhism! Moreover, I of course do not claim that the two books I recommend are the only ones that deserve to be mentioned. But that these two impeccable scholarly works are actually highly recommendable is beyond doubt.

I'm also against a book list as it's basically not adding much to the encyclopedia that a simple search for 'Buddhism' at your local bookstore, library or Amazon isn't going to trump. My understanding is that normally we only list sources for the article in question, and not further reading unless the article is quite specific and the sources difficult to track down. prat 04:52, 2004 May 18 (UTC)

Hmm. There are now more books in the list (which is good), but I'm still unconvinced. First off, "list in progress" can't stay, as it's self-referentiality, which Wikipedia frowns on. Second, I think it's doomed to either be too short to be accurate and complete or too long to wieldy on the page. My vote is that we make it a separate page (my suggestion is "List of books on Buddhism") and then link to it from "See also". That way we can have individual sections for books on/from specific schools, western stuff, etc, and it won't be assailing the casual reader. Until this is either accepted or shot down, I'm going removing the section to this talk page, where it can be added to in the meantime. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 10:32, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

Reply: Well, Mr Remover, the point is that you´ll hardly find any books in which Buddhism is depicted more accurately than in the ones listed below! But do as you please ...
Wow. "Mr. Remover" is a pretty cool epithet, though it would be better if I were a deletionist rather than an eventualist. That said, my objection isn't so much accuracy as appropriateness; there's no different set of books that, if you'd said them instead, I'd be all for it. I'm gonna go ahead and create the list and start doing some sectioning and maybe add a few things in the more specific categories. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 20:20, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, started List of books related to Buddhism. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽

Reply: All right, looks promising—hatchet buried. :-)


Standards for inclusion of external links?

Are there any wikipedia-wide standards for what external links are deemed includable? I just deleted one singularly crappy-looking one, but maybe I overstepped. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. I don't know that there are rules, which makes it hard to know what should stay and what should go. I see now somebody has changed the "google directory" link on this page to the "dmoz directory", but I have no idea what makes one better or worse. There's also kind of a funny new link on Zen, Sit Down and Shut Up!, which is kind of an interesting site, but I am inclined to say it is not general interest enough for this page. - Nat Krause 04:36, 28 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
I think that in terms of Buddhism, any external link should at least meet the criteria deals with entire concept of Buddhism rather than a specific tradition or aspect. In this way, we will keep links to relevant pages. There are a few to be removed even if we only decide on a simple rule like this one. --prat 01:10, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I went through and tried to make it so that all and only the links that are both encyclopedic and pertinent to Buddhism as a whole are included. But others should check and make sure I didn't miss anything and/or unfairly exclude anything. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 04:52, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Damn you, 1.3!!!

Huh. Well. This kind of blows chunks. Specifically: (1) The new style, monobook, while aesthetically pleasing in the extreme, specifies Verdana, such that if you use it, the majority of Sanskrit diacritics will be not so much of the available. Also, Verdana's a pretty lame font as such.

Okay, update on this. It's pretty easy to customzie the css; just create yourself a subpage called monobook.css and include something like
 * {font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"} 
I'm sure there's a less brutal way of doing it, but I wasn't in a patient mood. Also, does anyone know of (a) a good serif face with a full suite of unicode glyphs, and/or (b) a good free font of any kind with a full suite of unicode glyphs? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽

(2) My beloved msg: system of transliteration seems to break somewhat in 1.3. Which is unfortunate. It also doesn't seem to break in a coherent or predictable manner. As I don't thin anyone else was using this extensively, this probably isn't a huge concern, but I will say that changing from msg: to template: helps exactly some of the time, and that part of the problem comes from having two msg: tags in the same word. The simplest thing would be to change over to subst: and have these things go back to their numbered entities, but unfortunately this doesn't always work. I'm pondering solutions currently.

Okay, some of the time it helps to use a | at the end of the template name, like {{Nirvana|}}, but only some of the time. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 00:02, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Also, why the hell didn't they switch to UTF, while they were messing everything else up? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 22:38, 29 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Categories

So, does anyone have a clear grasp on how this "categories" thing works? Also, any thoughts on how Buddhism-related articles should be categorizes? For example, should the path to "Madhyamaka" be Buddhism>Madhyamaka, Buddhism>Mahayana>Madhyamaka, Buddhism>Schools>Madhyamaka Buddhism>Vehicles of Buddhism>Schools of Buddhism>Madhyamaka, etc.? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 21:41, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

The following I just posted to Wikipedia:WikiProject Buddhism, and am including here because noone ever looks at that page. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 11:31, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Category status

We have the following categories currently:

We clearly need more. Possibly we need subcats for "Branches of Buddhism," but I've avoided making such so far becuase of the ensuing fracas that would doubtless cause. "Perfection of Wisdom Sutras" might be useful, and there may be other subcats of texts. On the other hand, Buddhist mythology is currently empty except for the seemingly spurious subcats and one god, "Agni", who seems mightily misplaced over here in Buddhism...surely there's some material that could be classified as Buddhist mythology, and we should get that done, but the deities, gods, and goddesses should probably be VfD'd and replaced with something like "Supernatural Beings in Buddhism," or "Non-Humans in Buddhism", or whatever the hell we finally went with at the main Buddhism page.

We also need a general "Buddhists" or "People in Buddhism" category for everyday non-philosophers (Philosophers can then be subcatted to this), and a subcat for Buddhist clergymen and women.

Your suggestions seem pretty reasonable. Personally, I'm not really very interested in categories and I don't plan on having much to do with them for the time being. I do wonder if it is appropriate to have a category called "mythology" for any currently practiced religion. What does that even mean? What aspect of Buddhism is more or less "mythological" than another? I don't see any problem with a "Supernatural beings in Buddhism" category, though.
PS - Never did resolve the ongoing branches of Buddhism issue, did we? The temporary China blockage through the Buddhism editing community here off its step, I guess. - Nat Krause 12:45, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't mind the idea of mythology for a religion, but I grew up on Joseph Campbell, so I never had the idea that mythology was supposed to be bad or false or that there was such a thing as "de-mythologization", etc.; if it's going to bug people, I wouldn't mind considering getting rid of it or renaming it. But for me "mythology" just speaks to networks of deep-running stories and images, just like "legend"--which can be as easily applied to "real" as to imaginary things.
For what it's worth, I know the categories aren't all that useful yet, but (a) a bad categorization is a pretty annoying thing, and it's much much harder to fix than to do right the first time, (b) they're probably going to be of consdirable use and importance at some pointin the future. They're potentially very powerful. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 13:42, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Brutannica's edits

1: I started a section called "Buddhism After the Buddha" and wanted to know if I should keep it that way or if I shouldn't. I'm not sure if there's an article about the history of Buddhism, specifically; I think there should be one, but even if there is one, there should at least be a brief summary on this page, like the one I started, only a bit longer.

2: Shouldn't we move the "Origins" material to the page on Gautama Buddha, especially since it seems to be pretty detailed and the Buddhism page is considered too long? Brutannica 00:40, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't have any objection to the post-Buddha division. There are articles on history (Timeline of Buddhism, for example, and I think there's one on history of Buddhist polemics, or history of the schools, or somesuch. As for the "Origins" material, it's useful to have to put the religion in context for readers. It maybe could use some trimming, though. My concern is with "This was partially due to Muslim invasions, and partially due to Hinduism absorbing Buddhist principles." On what are we basing the claim that Buddhism's decline in India was owing to Hindu appropriation? That sounds like a difficult thing to state as a fact (though certainly it also sounds like a defensible hypothesis), and could potentially draw some flack. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 06:30, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"One reason that Buddhism died out in India is that Hinduism absorbed many of its ideas and principles." - p. 25, "The 100," Michael H. Hart. Not terribly specific, I know, but I don't have any evidence of my own. Personally I think it sounds more realistic than Muslim invasions. Brutannica 07:13, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
That's not really a strong enough source for my taste. And it's arguable, for example, whether various Hindu branches absorbed Buddhist principles, the opposite happened, or they simply emerge from the same cultual movement critiquing older forms of the orthodox religion. Perhaps we should remove it until we can find a better source. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 07:19, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Sigh*... all right... But what should I put then? Just "Muslim invasions," or leave out reasons? Brutannica 00:00, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know. Does anyone actually dispute Brut's version of events? At the very least, we could say that Hinduism absorbed most of Buddhism's base of support. I would reference this from Skilton's book, if my copy were not in another country, but I have read the same basic story in different places. The main differences I've seen are just in how much one or the other (Muslim invasion or Hindu absorption) is emphasized (Udit Raj believes that it was entirely the work of Brahmins and the Muslims had nothing to do with it, but I don't take him as a very credible source for history). We might could also consult with our friend Lord Surya. - Nat Krause 09:30, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A statement like, "scholars/thinkers/writers/whatever such as X have proposed", particularly with a reference to the book (title will do for now, we can fill in more details later) should suffice. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 04:02, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the version I first learned was that around that time Hinduism started emphasizing sex, which simultaneously attracted former Buddhists and the wrath of invading Afghan Muslims, who wiped out many temples (possibly not distinguishing between Hindu and Buddhist?). I didn't include that for space and controversy reasons. Opinions?Brutannica 21:04, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've never heard that before, but I don't suppose that makes it wrong. I know that people love to flap their gums about tantric sex (in Hinduism and Buddhism), but did Hinduism in general ever emphasize sex? That sounds far-fetched. Plus, I don't know about you, but, to me, "invading Afghans" doesn't sound like something that would need a lot of provocation in order to draw their wrath. Clearly, in the long run, north Indian Buddhism got the worst of it (a history of India I read -- don't remember the name -- suggested that this was because the Muslim and Hindu establishments reached a compromise where the latter would be treated as dhimmis while the Buddhists would not, although I would want to include that unless we can find something more authoritative). - Nat Krause 06:54, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sex? Not relevant or accurate. The answer is probably a good deal more complex than one or two reasons. I would err on the side of caution on this one, and say that there are various theories about why - then quote the sources if you wish. Here is my theory: latter-day Indian Buddhism was pretty much centred around Nalanda university - and it may be that the muslim invaders saw that institution as too much of a political threat. Secondly, the Udyana buddhists had already been wiped out early on in the muslim invasion, and this probably influenced them away from negotiating settlements. (20040302 15:01, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC))

Is Atman a Buddhist philosophical concept?

Hey, "Buddhism" contributors: over at Atman, Surya is holding the categorization of "Atman" into "Buddhist philosophical concepts" hostage to a debate he and I were having, and I was wondering if others might jump in. Maybe I'm crazy, or he is, but in either case I wonder that others haven't expressed an interest. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 15:08, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Also, I will be away for a month from the 18 (going to India) - so keep the wiki-fires burning! (20040302 15:04, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC))

Deer Park picture

Am I totally goofy or did the Deer Park picture used to be a whole different picture? I could have sworn it was a landscape at one point. - Nat Krause 17:46, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC) P.S. - Enjoy your trip, number man!

Re: edits by Usedbook

A couple days ago, Usedbook re-added a couple changes that he had put in place originally towards the beginning of the month. I think they should be removed again, but I wanted to give my reasons before doing so. With regard to nirvana="unbinding", Kukkurovaca, whose Sanskrit, I think, is better than any other regular editors here, has said on Talk:Nirvana "Nirvana does not literally mean 'unbinding'". Usedbook says in his edit summary, "extinguishing definition rejected by Siddhartha". What's the source for this? And what does this even mean? How do you reject the meaning of a word? I could say something like, "The Great Extinguishment is not the putting out of a fire," but that wouldn't change the definition of the word extinguishment, especially not if you're giving a literal translation of it into another language. I also take issue with "all beings have non-self", which is grammatically questionable and adds nothing over "all beings have no self." - Nat Krause 10:17, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm no expert, and Nirvana is a rather widely interpreted word. But I'm pretty certain it originally meant extinguishing, and certainly that's the literal meaning. I think I suggested previously that if the "unbinding" definition has roots in a tradition, we should talk about that as part of that tradition, but certainly it shouldn't be given as the base definition. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 19:26, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Captions

I'd like to make all the captions full sentences (following the guidance at Wikipedia:Captions), but I'm afraid my background would mislead me into writing an incorrect caption. Perhaps someone who understands Buddhism better can take a shot at it.

For the first picture of Tian Tan Buddha, I thought the caption might discuss the purpose of Buddha statues something about the Buddha (are all statues of the first Buddha?), or some other background that would help bring the picture together with the article.
For the later picture of three Buddha statues, I'm not sure how it ties together with the text. Perhaps the caption could make a particular tie.
Thanks! -- ke4roh 02:02, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
Well, let me think about this some more. I'm not sure I agree with the policy described on Wikipedia:Captions. If use the image caption on the main image, which is one of the first things you see when you look at the article, to expound on a subject like the role of Buddhist statuary, that could be distracting to the reader from article's more central points. - Nat Krause 05:36, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Captions is a great place to discuss that policy :-). I mention the role of statuary only because the statue shows up several times in the article and frequently in the Buddhist world - leaving me to wonder what its role is (in short sentence form). That's only one tack to writing a full-sentence caption for the first picture. There may well be a better way to tie the picture to the article and lead the reader into the article. -- ke4roh 02:35, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

Here are some thoughts on the captions as starting points (in order of the pictures in the article) in case they help reveal the approach of this Christian to understanding:

  1. Already discussed above.
  2. Already pretty good, though I wonder about the work of art - who else is there? Is it a special moment in Buddhist history (like The Last Supper is in Christian history)? When was it made? etc. If you recognize more about it, perhaps that could go on the image description page.
  3. Buddhists are praying at the temple - do Buddhists usually/always/occasionally pray at the temple? Are they praying to the statue or near it? What's with all the gold? It looks like the people are holding scepters. There's much more in this picture than I understand.
  4. Sutras? I figured out those were Buddhist reference materials by reading context within the article, but I would mention that in the caption.
  5. These three Buddha images are each different. Are the differences significant? Is there anything else special about these statues? Are they characteristic of a particular branch of Buddhism? Do you suppose they're for sale?

Don't put too much stock in my thoughts about the captions - they're just places to start if you're wondering what someone might want to know about the pictures. -- ke4roh 02:35, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, good effort on getting started. You ask interesting questions, although I wish I knew the answers to more of them. I'll try to add a little here and there. Re: 2, yes, it's a special moment, the Buddha's first public sermon, more comparable perhaps to Jesus' baptism than to the last supper. Re: 3, I don't think those are sceptres, I figure it's some weird kind of incense, but I'm not sure. - Nat Krause 14:13, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Pali canon translation

By the way, the Aum Shinrikyo page says that Aum is the only group that has ever translated the complete Pali Canon into a modern language. Does anybody know if this is true? I have no trouble believing they made the only Japanese translation, but it seems like somebody would have done one in Thai or Sinhala or English or something. - Nat Krause

The Pali cannons started to be translated into Japanese in late 19th century. Japanese Imperial Universities always had Indian Philosophy department and that created sizable population of Sanskrit scholars in Japan. And when I say Sanskrit, I mean all Sanskrit dialect including Pali. The complete translation of Pali cannons was first published somewhere in late 50s. Aum attracted lot of young university science graduates but they didn't attract any people who were engaged in serious academic study of buddhism. English Translation of Pali Cannon published by Pali Text is about 20 volumes and it involved decades of hard work. Aum's claim is total BS. FWBOarticle 06:26, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I read Wiki article of Aum Shinrikyo. It appeared to be written by a member. FWBOarticle 06:47, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes. - Nat Krause

Vegetarianism

I rewrote the vegetarianism section, mostly reverting it to an earlier version and incorporating some of the more recent text. I saw some POV problems with the version that was up. It started off saying "Many Westerners think that the Buddhist recept against killing implies that Buddhists should avoid eating the meat of animals." This opinion is not limited to Westerners; a lot of people here in China, for example, think the same thing, which is why they expect monks to be vegetarians. The previous version continues, "this is to miss the distinction between killing an animal and eating its already dead meat" is blatantly POV. Furthermore, we provide evidence contrary to these claims in the citations from Mahayana sutras, which appear in the next paragraph. - Nat Krause 16:50, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Did further NPOVing.
Did some additional fine tuning. A few points. I changed the line, "However, this is not to be the general case," as POV. I also restored, "Monks in ancient India were expected to receive all of their food by begging, and so theoretically should have no control at all over their diet," and "In Tibet, where vegetable nutrition was historically very scarce," because these seem like relevant information. The sentence on Japan and Korea had read, "In Japan and Korea, some monks practice vegetarianism; however, it is common for most schools to abstain from meat on certain dates for temporary periods," which doesn't really make sense as written, so I changed it to "In Japan and Korea, some monks practice vegetarianism, and most will do so at least when training at a monastery, but otherwise they typically do eath meat," which is closer to what I had in mind originally.
FWBOarticle, what's the source of this thing about the general and commercially purchased meat? I haven't seen that story anywhere else, and a search for "General Shia" on google just brings back information on a general Shia uprising in Iraq. - Nat Krause 10:20, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Added a couple of qualifiers - one to state that it is the first precept of the pancasila, and secondly that the Tibetans didn't adopt a mahayana vinaya. (20040302)
Why do you say "lay precept", especially when we spend most of the next few paragraphs talking about what monks do? Also, not sure about the Tibetan vinaya thing. It's certainly relevant, but I'm not sure it's necessary, and the way it stands, I don't think it's clear what the significance is; to explain might be to unwieldy. - Nat Krause 11:59, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well, not to interfere, but Killing is the third great defeat in a monks precepts, not the first (which is sexual intercourse) or the second (which is theft). So, by all means change the paragraph to say third defeat of monastic vinaya; I was just qualifying the specific precept list that killing is the first of! My excuse and I'm sticking to it! (20040302)
Hmmm, this is an interesting technical point. Don't monks vow to follow the pancasila, even if this is redundant with their other, specifically monastic vows? - Nat Krause 14:30, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I cannot answer that question. But the pancasila are very often known of as the lay precepts, which implies they belong to the lay pratimoksha. I can see it being possible that a monk takes ordination without first taking (lay) refuge. It seemed to happen a lot in Buddha's day; so in that case, the answer would appear to be no. Certainly monastic vinaya covers the pancasila, so this is not a question of whether or not monks can do what laypeople cannot! Moreover, it would certainly appear that a monks vows take much more prevalance (to monks) than the pancasila, so it would still not be right to say 'the first precept' without some context being given. (20040302)
As to the Tibetan vinaya, I think the sentence could do with some editorial work, but the issue is very important - among the Mahayana Vinaya such as described in the Brahmajala Sutra, it is an offence to eat meat, whereas within Nikaya vinaya it is not; so though the Tibetans follow Mahayana practices in general, it seemed prudent to mention that they do not follow a Mahayana vinaya. Hence the mention. (20040302)
Well, I know why it's relevant, but the paragraph as it stands does not explain why this is the case, and I'm not sure it's important enough to take the space to explain. - Nat Krause 14:30, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Importance. We have some piece about HHDL recommending vegetarianism if your health allows for it, and that would require a Tibetan context for the non-vegetarian as Mahayana issue. Maybe we need to divide the section? (20040302)
It may be worthwhile pointing out the benefits meat-eating in Buddhist countries has had for religious minorities (typically Islam) in cities such as Lhasa: Muslims held a virtual butchery monopoly, and Tibetans typically paid a high price for the meat that they wished to buy. (20040302)
I'm not quite sure how this would be relevant. Seems like more of a historical curiosity. - Nat Krause 14:30, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yup. Accepted. (20040302)
Also, vegetarianism was one of the vows proposed by Devadatta during his schism - which was explicitly turned down by Buddha. (20040302)
This is very relevant, but it is already mentioned in the text. - Nat Krause 14:30, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Whoops! (20040302)


Buddhism

Most Buddhist and other people, they don't unsderstand buddhism sharply. In buddhism, Buddha means the God. Any other religion in the world insist that human can't become the God (the god as in Christ, Muslim). but only the Buddha insist that human can be the god. this is greatest religious revolution in the earth. this is most important (core of the core) teaching of the Buddha. this is fundamantal difference to any other religion.

so, in buddhism, meditation practice(study, not pray) and the zen test is most important. a person pass the zen test, he (or she) is authorized that he become the God.

now, in south korea only, a few people has passed the exam. -- thirdid 08:10, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Why in South Korea only? You wouldn't happen to be South Korean, would you? I've noticed that all of your edits seem to involve promoting various things as being exclusively Korean. - Nat Krause 08:21, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of the qualities and special features of Buddhism, unfortunately the thesis in this case in mistaken, Thirdid. Various branches of Hinduism also say that it is possible to become God. Moreover, there are certainly parts of the Vedas that allude to this, which would mean that this religious revolution could not be said to have originated in Buddhism. Believe me, I personally have great faith in the paths of Buddha - more so than in any other spiritual paths, but I am merely pointing out an error in your somewhat militant statement. (20040302 09:19, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC))
  • Why? South korea only?? It's not nationalism, POV...I don't know other officially. Do you hear that I pass the Buddha exam? I realize?? In korea, newspapers notify it first. But I don't know any other.

And, in buuddhism, exam system is most strict in the world. If some people who becomes the God, He must be identified by all living buuddha. Korean buddhism opened open exam festival two years annually. In the world, four living buddha is famous. tibet, vietnam, korea, cambodia monks. but I don't know that they all pass the exam. -- thirdid 10:47, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)