Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Georgeff

James Georgeff

James Georgeff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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PROD contested by IP at my talk page; original rationale of "Promotional article, likely written by subject himself - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL" remains valid. This player has never played in a fully-professional league, and he has not received significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. GiantSnowman 08:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 08:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 08:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 08:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 08:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Notable Event No.3: Youngest Player ever to play OR score in the NBN State Super League with Adamstown Rosebud FC at 15yrs 10 months old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the subject in action: http://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/houston-dynamo-james-georgeff-in-action-vs-dc-united-nachrichtenfoto/81910071 Article of subject in action for Houston Dynamo: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/dynamo-open-festival-win-over-tfc Another article of subject with Houston Dynamo: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/quakes-return-bay-area-preseason-game I know of this player - it seems he has played for a few professional teams. I will try find some more references on those, but he is first australian in history to be drafted to the MLS. He was also the first austrlaian ever and only australian ever to be the number one draft pick in the MISL. He actually was drafted to both drafts in the same month. He was also noted as being the youngest player ever to play for the Adamstown Rosebuds which played in the NBN State Super League - which Bild.de recently published an article on, being professional. The subject also made multiple appearances and scored goals for FC Arouca in portugal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 09:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The subject also made an appearance in this league this year - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu%C3%9Fball-Regionalliga_Nordost Fußball-Regionalliga Nordost - which you can read in wiki in German, which calls this league professional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 09:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Notable Event No.1 : First ever Australian to be drafted to Major League Soccer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Notable Event No.2: First ever Australian to be drafted to MISL. AND - First ever Australian to be drafted as NUMBER 1 overall pick in USA to the Major Indoor Soccer League. MISL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:32, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - please note that Georgeff9 (talk · contribs) and Samej1902 (talk · contribs) are the same editor. GiantSnowman 10:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Notable Event No.3: Youngest Player ever to play OR score in the NBN State Super League with Adamstown Rosebud FC at 15yrs 10 months old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

EXTRA non directly related, but still, notable events:

- Playing for Houston Dynamo in the MLS: MLS picture here - Playing in the Texas Pro Soccer Festival in Cibolo, Texas. "The contest was the opening game of three Dynamo appearances in the inaugural Texas Pro Soccer Festival in Cibolo, Texas", which was a FULLY PROFESSIONAL tournament of only MLS teams. see article -Playing for FC Arouca, professional team in Portugal - div2. Shown in the following link is the source having played (only league appearances counted) with FC Arouca of Perotugal.

At the end of the day - The article has references to each and every point made from my opinion. The claim being made is about an athlete who was the first aussie to be drafted in MLS, I find that claim to be adequately proved. The claim about being the first aussie and number 1 draft pick to the MISL, is also cited and proved. The claim as being a 'soccer player' currently playing in Europe - I feel is satisfied, and Being an Australian citizen, they don't often let people live in Germany for a 3/4 year holiday, nor would it be allowed to be on another visa type and earn money... It seems this claim is proven. The other extra add on claims all seem to be proven in the articles references also. Assessing the professional involvement of this player - seems nothing exceptional, however, it would be hard to suggest that the individual is not regarded (from the numerous independent articles) to have made a career from the sport, and that this career has received notoriety from several countries all independently showing a significant career after the historical events (which are the basis of this article"first aussie..etc..") has taken place. All extra info simply comes from assessing the sources which give the info on the original claim. In my modest opinion, the article seems fact driven, neutral, and by no means would further the individual in any way, except bringing the overall scope of already available information from independent sources of many different countries to one easy to find medium. As the publisher, I would be quite happy to delete the 'extra' info included - but I feel it makes the article more interesting and holds factual basis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 13:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

A few quick points in reply - something being true does not mean something is notable. The article is promotional - what links/relationship do you have with the player? And what do you mean you are the "publisher"? GiantSnowman 13:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

GiantSnowman - I am a soccer expert. Thats my relationship to the player. It so happens, from looking at the poorly kept examples of the 'reality' of the information on here, I want to do my part to start to get true info on here. For me, to see here, US 3rd div soccer being called professional... and then the 4th division in Germany where some players are earning 50,000Euro in a week... be not considered on the same level... AT LEAST is very poor representation. Yes, the sources are maybe more available making it easier to 'promote' but as you say, just because something is published, doesn't mean it is really true in essence. I mean "publisher" - as in I wrote this article. What do you mean "promotional"? Where does the article promote the player for anything other than the facts given by independent sources, completely separate to the player. Promotional would be saying other facts that are not relevant such as he earned a 4 year contract with Adidas through his first overall draft pick in the MISL. Things like that are promotional, and non relevant. Please define what you mean by 'promotional' to the actual source... as in promoting something directly to the players benefit...? (Samej1902 (talk) 21:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC))

• Comment - did James Georgeff actually play in MLS? No. He played in the Portuguese third tier in the 2008–09 season, as confirmed by this site (8 apps, 1 goal), but that is not a fully-professional league and playing in it does not confer notability per WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 18:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

GiantSnowman - Is being the overall first draft pick in the Major League Draft in the US a notable event? Is being the first ever Australian drafted to the Major League a notable event? I think so. In fact, as I browse some of the leagues that are defined here as professional, it stumps me... Now... I am somewhat of an expert in soccer... and to call the 3rd div of US soccer professional... when German 6th division teams earn much more... means someone "promoted" certain leagues in some way. I agree with you, playing in any league doesnt confer notability. Though, how many major league first draft picks in ANY major league sport - mind you, the first of their country of origin, to be the 1st overall draft pick in a Major League Sport to be not be seen as having notoriety in that sport?? So you are telling me that when the NFL or the NBA makes their 1st round draft pick... that this player, would not have notoriety until he starts playing in league games? That would be an interesting take if so...

GiantSnowman, I really do feel, that based on other articles on this very web site, as references, that not including this athlete based on notoriety of achievements would be unfair and not in consistency with other bios on this website.

If the basis of this is the player not having notoriety - then we disagree on this but I respect your opinion, and I welcome the thoughts of other people. I know experts in the field who I will try get a hold of to add some comments if possible. If you can fully explain the elements of this you find 'promotional' then let me know, I will then go ahead and explain the significance of these elements, or re-edit the article. I think this is an easy problem to solve.

GiantSnowman - If you even look at the link you gave me showing me the 'fully professional leagues' I notice League 2 in england (the 4th division). Now the Citation to that is here - !! Now... this article says pretty clearly in the body... that the player they interviewed works as a school teacher and plays part time. It is pretty clear from the article and from my knowledge that this is quite normal in League 2. So, how come there are players who have bio's who have played a few minutes of ONE game in League 2, and NO other major acclaims, be included as notorietable inclusions?... If you need the direct links to some of these bio's just ask, I would rather not point fingers first though... and this is not even mentioning the inclusions of players who play in the US 3rd division that in no way shape or form is professional... yet includes players who have only played this level... In all fairness sir, there is a big difference between playing 3 minutes in league 2 England, and playing multiple games in the portuguese 2nd div and being the first draft pick to MISL, and first ever aussie drafted to MLS. That again though, is just my opinion. I understand and respect yours though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• Delete - Does he meet WP:GNG? No. Why? He hasn't received any significant coverage and those events that were just listed are not notable. Does he meet WP:NFOOTBALL? No. Why? He hasn't played in a fully professional league. – Michael (talk) 21:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Does be meet WP:GNG? Clearly yes. (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=coxatlanta&page=/soc-npsl/news/CZN4126691.htm) & (http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/sports/ucf-soccer-star-drafted-into-mls-1.1422169) & (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/497848/georgeff-at-home-on-international-voyage/). Just 3 references that show definite significant coverage - took 1 min to get those. Being first overall draft pick to major league not notable?? Being first Australian to ever to drafted to a major league sport not notable?? It was never done before, and has not been done since... not notable?? Never played in a professional League - I see League 2 in England is considered professional - read this - (http://www.albionroad.com/football-leagues/football-league-two.html). Now, because it is clear league 2 (the 4th div.) shown as fully professional by this website, do we go ahead and remove all the players who have their bio's on here when they have played just a few minutes in league 2 and no other achievements? Can we look at what already is approved as a basis for this being notable... instead of weird interpretations for this particular case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI, he never played in League Two, nor was he drafted first overall in the MLS Draft. Being drafted in the MISL doesn't count as notable. Preseason doesn't count as notable. And again there's no significant coverage. So it's clear that he fails WP:GNG. – Michael (talk) 23:29, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• Keep - Does he meet WP:NCOLLATH? Yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

A college Major League Draft is about the most significant, most staged part of every college year. To be the Number 1 draft pick for any major league sport is notable, let alone being the first of your countrymen, in not just one sport, but 2... Again, notable? Meets WP:NCOLLATH? Yes. And, likely other qualifying criteria also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Let me say it again, he was not drafted no. 1 overall in a major sport. He was the last draft pick in the 2008 MLS Supplemental Draft and the MISL is not fully pro. So no, he doesn't even meet WP:NCOLLATH – Michael (talk) 23:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mikemor92#Professional_indoor_soccer - Please read this entry. (Samej1902 (talk) 23:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)) ............................. College athletes Shortcut:

   WP:NCOLLATH

College athletes and coaches are notable if they have been the subject of non-trivial media coverage beyond merely a repeating of their statistics, mentions in game summaries, or other WP:ROUTINE coverage. Examples would include head coaches, well-known assistant coaches, or players who:

   Have won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport), or established a major Division I (NCAA) record.
   Were inducted into the hall of fame in their sport (for example, the College Football Hall of Fame).
   Gained national media attention as an individual, not just as a player for a notable team.

......................................

Where does it mention above about the sport and its professionalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC) Mikemor92 - he was not drafted as number one pick into a major sport? Is that the claim of the article? or the criteria needing to be met?? Once again - the point is very simple.

• • • • • First Australian in History to be drafted to the Major League Soccer, & First Australian to be drafted as the number one overall draft pick for a Major League Sport & both these events happened at the same time. This had coverage noted in Australia and in the USA in multiple sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere—certainly not in the US, at least. Any degree of professionalism in a sport costs you your eligibility to continue to play at the collegiate level in the NCAA. That's why the question was asked whether he meets the notability criteria as a college athlete, since it doesn't appear that he does as a professional. —C.Fred (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Samej1902 - Why don't you take a look here and tell me if he was drafted no. 1 overall? – Michael (talk) 00:05, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Mikemor92 - you looked at the MLS draft. You are not looking at the article in discussion here. He was the first overall draft pick to the Major Indoor Soccer League. Take a look (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=coxatlanta&page=/soc-npsl/news/CZN4126691.htm) He was simply ALSO drafted to the MLS in the same month. Both events being the first time for an Australian College athlete. C.Fred - I am unsure what you mean? No where what? Please go to the original article in question and take a look at some references... they are almost all US sources. The player WAS a college student... NO longer... so I am unsure why we are talking about college eligibility? Or when the questions changed from pro or college, point is, you only need to satisfy on category to prove notoriety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

You brought up WP:NCOLLATH. So the question is, why are you talking about college eligibility? And if you look at WP:FPL, you can see there's nothing that says MISL is fully pro. As for MLS, he was drafted in the Supplemental Draft which doesn't make him notable either. – Michael (talk) 00:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

THIS here is the ultimate question:

WP:NCOLLATH College athletes and coaches are notable if they have been the subject of non-trivial media coverage beyond merely a repeating of their statistics, mentions in game summaries, or other. YES or NO. http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=coxatlanta&page=/soc-npsl/news/CZN4126691.htm http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/sports/ucf-soccer-star-drafted-into-mls-1.1422169 http://www.theherald.com.au/story/497848/georgeff-at-home-on-international-voyage/ Is this non trivial? Being the first Australian in History to be a number one draft and drafted to MLS (2 notable events)? Is this media coverage beyond simply repeating stats? Answer quite clearly is yes. Very clearly. Yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Answer quite clearly is no. Why? Because it was the MLS Supplemental Draft and the MISL is not fully pro, so I shouldn't have to explain why being drafted in the MISL draft isn't notable. – Michael (talk) 00:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

• Delete, despite all the verbiage in this discussion, I'm not seeing anything to indicate that the player has met the notability guideline or played in a fully professional league. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:32, 15 August 2013 (UTC).
• Delete. Subject has not been shown to have played in a fully-professional league, so fails the football (soccer)-specific notability guideline. Signing with or being drafted by a club in such a league isn't enough, and as pointed out somewhere above, the Portuguese Second Division is actually the third tier and not fully pro. I'm no expert on US college sports, but I don't see how he passes that guideline either. And the media coverage in the article isn't enough in my opinion to pass the general notability guideline.

  Incidentally, the insistent wall of text hyping minor accomplishments doesn't half remind me of the Jordan Older AfD. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:57, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

• Delete: we've seen this countless times before. He doesn't pass GNG, he hasn't done anything of note in the world of football and he doesn't pass WP:NFOOTBALL either. This is a promotional article (IMO) with no merit. BigDom (talk) 09:43, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

MISL is Professional (http://misl.uslsoccer.com/About/index_E.html) Please read that from the MISL homepage. Thanks. To add to this drawn out discussion - no where is anyone asking for whether this player played professional in which leagues. The criteria here, as noted several times is as a college student. If you read the article, he is noted as being first Aussie drafted into MLS and first Aussie being number one draft pick in a Major League Sport (MISL). To add - to call the US second division, and 3rd division professional, and not the 2nd or 3rd divisions of Portugal professional is an interesting stance.

Instead of stating answers to questions not asked, please present a case against this criteria, not the professional stuff. The article doesn't claim professionalism! It claims number 1 draft pick! And first aussie to do so in MLS and MISL. Again - look at the criteria wiki gives- WP:NCOLLATH — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The WP:BURDEN is on you to demonstrate notability. Please note that the NCOLLATH that you keep on yammering on about states "College athletes and coaches are notable if they have been the subject of non-trivial media coverage beyond merely a repeating of their statistics, mentions in game summaries, or other WP:ROUTINE coverage." That has not happened. GiantSnowman 10:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Delete- fails Wikipedia:NFOOTBALL. Being drafted isn't enough until he plays for a fully professional team which as far as I can see hasn't happened here (A-League) or in the U.S. A search of news sources fails to identify any significant coverage, which fails WP:NCOLLATH and WP:GNG . Flat Out let's discuss it 10:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:NCOLLATH is clearly satisfied. If the article references 20+ articles are considered, it is seen this is NOT 'merely repaeting stats, NOT merely mentions in game summary, and not routine coverage. The sources are (as seen in article references) are international, not just US. Being drafted is very truly not enough. Being drafted 1st overall, being drafted to MLS and MISL, and being the first of a country to do so... especially in one of the drafts as 1st overall draft pick, in a Major League Sport... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 11:37, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Where is the significant coverage? I couldn't find a single news article in Australia except for this in a regional paper You are confusing significance with notability. Flat Out let's discuss it 12:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The event took place in FL, USA. This was not an Australian event. But, even so, it made the "Herald" brand of news papers in another country outside the event geography - hence, it was more than 'national' coverage. From what I have seen, the event was the primary discussion produced in articles in FL, in SC, Online in numerous locations (online is online) and also in print again in Australia.

Comment: The mention in the Newcastle Herald, a regional Fairfax publication, doesn't relate to the draft. I haven't found any news coverage in the U.S, if you have perhaps you could list them? Flat Out let's discuss it 14:04, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I just got off the phone with an editor in FL at the University of Central Florida, the college of the previous source, and as it so happens, he received some type of coveted award for the notable event described in the article. This is the equivalent of a hall of fame addition as per the editor. This would pass WP:NCOLLATH right?

Comment: Wrong, unless you think anyone who wants to verify the source should ring the university guy. Flat Out let's discuss it 14:04, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

For more info on the event type in google 'Georgeff' along with the words, drafted, first australian, UCF star... and so on. Many articles come up, as shown in the article being discussed here. If someone has the know-how, could they please add this to a discussion board for college soccer? I think this is more the issue than the professional argument. Thank you (Samej1902 (talk) 13:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC))

You need to provide those "many articles" here so others can verify and assess them. My searches on the subject turn up very little of interest and virtually nothing by mainstream sources. For example, if the "first Australian drafted" was as notable as you suggest, then why didn't any significant news source pick it up? Flat Out let's discuss it 11:06, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

"it so happens, he received some type of coveted award for the notable event described in the article" - yes, what a coincidence! You have failed to demonstrate notability as a professional athlete, now you are trying to demonstrate notability as a college athlete. Is the award a major, national award? Why has him winning this "coveted" award not been mentioned in any sources, why did you have to ring his old University to get that informtion? GiantSnowman 13:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is one article on the draft event as you requested: http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/sports/ucf-soccer-star-drafted-into-mls-1.1422169 I will add a couple more if I get a few more minutes time. @GiantSnowman - the award is 'like' a hall of fame award - I havent had time to look into it sorry, but I am not sure these events are closed to public or not, regardless, there is verifiable media that would show who has what awards at one of the biggest colleges in USA. (Samej1902 (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2013 (UTC))

Here is another article @ Flatout which talks not purely about the drafting event but talks about the subject in regards to career since the event. http://www.theherald.com.au/story/497848/georgeff-at-home-on-international-voyage/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 16 August 2013 (UTC) Here is another article @ Flatout which talks not purely about the drafting event but talks about the subject in regards to career since the event. http://www.theherald.com.au/story/497848/georgeff-at-home-on-international-voyage/ Here is the number 1 draft pick Major Indoor League press release. http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=coxatlanta&page=/soc-npsl/news/CZN4126691.htm Here is another on the draft event http://newsle.com/article/0/3782534/ (Samej1902 (talk) 15:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)) Here is an article which shows the subject being considered professional from sources probably as knowing as any, and neutral - http://www.clemsontigers.com/fls/28500/old_site/pdf/m-soccer/2011-12/misc_non_event/tigers_in_the_pros_all-time.pdf?SPSID=657787&SPID=103704&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=28500 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC) Here is an article which shows the subject being considered professional from sources probably as knowing as any, and neutral - http://www.clemsontigers.com/fls/28500/old_site/pdf/m-soccer/2011-12/misc_non_event/tigers_in_the_pros_all-time.pdf?SPSID=657787&SPID=103704&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=28500 Here is an article of the subject taking part in a fully professional tournament with houston dynamo in the MLS. http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/dynamo-open-festival-win-over-tfc (I am not sure if the whole professionalism idea has any legs with the article, but regardless it is seperate from WP:NCOLLATH reasoning) Just thought I would show you @Flatout