Talk:Science

List of academic disciplines

Hello,

i would like to request to place a link or list of academic disciplines into the Head of the article. Academic disciplines are essential for the meaning of science and an oversight for them is missing in the article. I would suggest to place a link inside an infobox at the start of the article or a placement where it is easy to recognize. The infobox that is already placed does not give a good overwiev related to a structured list. It should also be placed above the picture. Thank you.

Illustration of science-- very large to very small

In a WP:BOLD move I've replaced the montage of scientists, which now serves a better function as the opening illustration of scientist. What to put in place of it? My best thought was to be Carl Saganish and go from astronomy to atoms. We need illustration, and I thought the space telescope in orbit would illustrate the doing of science better than any number of astronomical objects, which are just things we see. At the other end, one can go down to diagrams of quarks but they aren't very visually/graphically interesting. DNA is as small as you can get and still have something visually complex-- and it is the code of life itself. And this is not a photograph, but a molecular structural diagram, so again it represents something artificial, like the space telescope. One is an artifact/instrument for gathering data, the other is the picture we have of our genetic heretage at the atomic and molecular level. So, those are my two choices, yielding data describable by general relativity and quantum mechanics.

May I ask one favor, and that is, if you don't like these and decide to modify or replace them with somethign else, replace them with something you think is better. Don't just revert to the montage of scientists. I think most people would agree that THAT serves better someplace else. No? SBHarris 02:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I still think the questionmark of questionmarks would be the best illustration. There was no very good argument against it.Khaydock (talk) 18:21, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

And how would that differentiate science from philosophy, esthetics, ethics, religion, fine arts and humanities? Every last field of education other than science is full of questions. Science differs in that it actually provides demonstrable answers. Place your bets. SBHarris 19:26, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, science does provide demonstable answers (demonstrable through observation of physical reality), but even those answers can be questioned. Questionmarks would differentiate science from religion because in religion beliefs tend more to be based on authority and faith than on questioning. But it will not really differentiate science from philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, and humanities - to the extent that these are social sciences. And we should be including social sciences under the heading of science, so it is fine. Fine art is a little different, although it also has some similarities to science, and I would agree that one similarity is that art also includes questioning - but perhaps not to the degree that science does - science cannot occur without questioning.Khaydock (talk) 19:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I created an illustration for branches of science that could fit into this location. The advantage of it over the hubble and DNA pictures is that it captures all of science in one graphic. The disadvantage is that the content could be perceived as subjective and not aligning with the article. I am interested in feedback in favor or opposing. See here:

The scale of the universe mapped to the branches of science and the hierarchy of science

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Efbrazil (talk • contribs) 03:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I like it! SBHarris 06:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!--Efbrazil (talk) 17:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

My problem is with the ?string theory? and formal science end of the ladder. There is an informal component to mathematics (See Imre Lakatos , Proofs and Refutations). We literally don't know the issues at the tiny, high energy, early time end (See for example Roger Penrose and the Weyl curvature hypothesis for one viewpoint-- why is a zero Weyl curvature tensor baked-into General relativity?). On the other end, the graphic depicts a 'received science' which we can all utilize. Maybe M theory instead, on the bottom end? __Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 11:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

My defense is wrapped up in the question mark after string theory- that's meant to convey the "we don't know" aspect of it. The goal here is to have an introductory slide that hits on all the major topics. I'm open to pulling string theory and parallel universes entirely if there's debate on having them in there, but I'd rather not fall back to something more obscure like M Theory. What do you think?--Efbrazil (talk) 17:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment: In terms of ecstatics and concepts, I really like the newly proposed figure by Efbrazil. My only complaint is that the current figure gives the impression that the subject matter of biology and ecology is restricted to the cellular level, which is very misleading. Biology spans over many levels (see Hierarchical_organization) and I am not sure if the distinction between biology and the social sciences is just a matter of different levels of analysis (see biopsychology or biological anthropology). Plus, these fields tend to overlap with each other quite a bit. danielkueh (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Daniel! The connectors from scale to scientific branches are meant to identify the fundamental building block for each scientific discipline. All of physics is built on particle behaviors and stuff that happens on the atomic scale, even though physics describes the behavior of galaxies. All of the life sciences are built on cells, and all of psychology and social science is built on the human brain as the basic unit. I'm not sure how to improve the diagram to convey that reasoning- I was hoping people would intuit the reasoning, but your objection maybe means I was wrong about that. Let me know if you have ideas for conveying the "building block" concept visually...--Efbrazil (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I have two suggestions. The first suggestion would be to simplify this diagram by removing either the left (scale of the universe) or the right panel (hierarchy of science). If you retained the left panel, then I recommend that you draw a horizontal dash line between two labels (e.g., molecules and cells) on the scale and use a figure legend to allows readers to know that the line merely demarcates a starting point for a specific discipline/field. Alternatively, you can use brace texts instead. The second suggestion would be to combine physical and life sciences into "natural sciences," which is more common and more inclusive. Plus, it will solve the problem of not having other categories such as Earth Sciences (referring to below comment by Mikernoton). Overall, I like the idea of building blocks but for a variety of reasons, I don't think it is a good idea to fix these blocks on a scale of the universe. danielkueh (talk) 22:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I tried to resolve the mapping from scale to disciplines by having the images as building blocks, then connecting the scale to the blocks and not the category. I also added earth science and kept it with formal sciences as a visual image without the building block view. I do not want to eliminate the scale or hierarchy as I think they are both important in terms of connecting science to the physical universe and presenting a holistic view.--Efbrazil (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

It looks better, but could you post a link to the previous file so that I can compare the two? I know only a short time has passed but I have a bad memory. :D Thanks for all your hard work! danielkueh (talk) 19:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

If you click the image and then scroll down, you can see the history. There's a lot of uploads as my browser cache was refusing to acknowledge the upload.--Efbrazil (talk) 17:11, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment : By covering many but not all sciences, the diagram may lead to objections from those not included such as the Earth Sciences (I'm a geologist so naturally it was the first thing that I noticed), but I quite like the concept. Mikenorton (talk) 22:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Earth science is difficult in any taxonomy I think, and Wikipedia itself is conflicted about where to place it. In importance it's a top level natural science, in a taxonomy view it's just a special case of planetary science, and in terms of building blocks the science is interdisciplinary. My prior solution was just to leave it out, but that probably was to keep the diagram pretty. I took some time to wedge it in.--Efbrazil (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: (edit conflict) I like the idea a lot, but here's a few thoughts:

• At a size that's suitable for the lede, all the text will be unreadable. Maybe a simpler version (like only the green section) for the lede and the whole thing in larger further down?
• I somehow like the length scale, but people could say it puts undue weight on physics and astronomy, since big parts are not covered by other fields.
• How about arranging the main fields in a circle, connecting back from the brain to the abstract topics?

These are only vague ideas though, nothing thought through, hope it helps anyway. — HHHIPPO 22:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

There is a way to incorporate these ideas; it involves using danielkueh's suggestion, but omitting the right side (which does not scale because of the font sizes), and instead using the arrows between the length ladder and the 4 realms (the pictures). The arrows from the ladder to the realms then serve as illustration of a kind of observatory or microscope, depending on the relative size of the interaction. _Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 10:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! For lede sizing I just did a few things. I resized fonts so that there is a "large" font and a small one, with the large font visible if the image is a 400px thumbnail, and the smaller font good for when the image is zoomed in. To allow for the large thumbnail, a solution is to have the science category listing at the top and the image second, as I did for Branches of science. This works as the image is next to the TOC and doesn't get in the way. I don't want to strip out content, as I think the value here is having the image be used as an introductory slide for science.--Efbrazil (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the response! I had to take time on replying so I could digest the feedback and attempt to incorporate it.--Efbrazil (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think there is perhaps too much going on with the image; it's awkward to follow and the middle part seems a bit arbitrary. Why try squeeze everything into one image, why not two? IRWolfie- (talk) 22:37, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry you think it is too busy, you're probably right, but it's my best shot at capturing all of science and how it maps back to the universe in a single view. When introducing science it's important for people to understand what it's based in (universe mapping) and conceptually organized (the hierarchy). As multiple slides the overall mapping would be removed and I think the effect would be weaker. I am hoping the image will be used by teachers when introducing science or scientific subjects. To help with confusion, I expanded the descriptive text you see when clicking the image to help explain it.--Efbrazil (talk) 17:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Most of the feedback has been positive so I pulled the trigger and went live with this. I hope the image is not too controversial and can stay. If you want changes to the image, please let me know here and I will try to incorporate them.--Efbrazil (talk) 17:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Fine. If you can I would expand the thing in size a little (in theory it can cross the entire page if we put it under the header box). And add one more science-branch, which takes the scale all the way from Earth to the biggest things we know, which is astronomy. Gotta have that, for that reason. Otherwise, as I said before, I like it a LOT. SBHarris 00:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't want to go too much into non-standard sizing as it would generate controversy. The image is now legible in thumbnail view and easily clickable for a zoom, plus it will appear in google search results for searches on an image for "science". Also, I don't list astronomy as a fundamental branch because it is typically treated as a fork off of physics. Under physics I list astrophysics and particle physics. I agree it's strange that physical science doesn't link to astronomical systems, but my rationale was that I want to focus attention on the "building block" concept and not clutter the diagram. It's awkward though, so I'll noodle a bit more on this to see if I can get the mapping fixed cleanly. Thanks again, I have a fragile ego and feedback like this makes my world go round!--Efbrazil (talk) 17:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, take a look, you got your astronomy! Serves you right for being so nice.--97.126.99.71 (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Good! Now remove the arrow between biology and Earth science. Probably you need one or two connecting lines up the right side bypassing the life sciences and connecting chemistry to Earth science, and physics also to astronomy. The scales do make a loop there as we use particle physics to study the Big Bang. And before that also the reverse (Zel'dovich remarking that the Big Bang is the poor man's particle accelerator).SBHarris 17:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again for the feedback. See the update above. I didn't remove the connector from biology to Earth Science- Earth Science includes both the biosphere and the interaction of life and earth through time, and space science is all about finding life these days. I agree with a direct connection back to physics and chemistry though, as that is a key differentiator with the social sciences. I didn't want to complicate the diagram too much though- at some level all sciences are interdisciplinary and the connectors turn to spaghetti. I decided to connect both chemistry and physics to geoscience and then on up to astronomy from there. I think that strikes the right balance between complexity and correctness. Look good to you?--Efbrazil (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for putting so much work into this Efbrazil - you'll never satisfy all of us, but I think that it's looking very good. Mikenorton (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Shameless plug- I submitted the Cosmic Calendar graphic I came up with previously as a "Featured Picture Candidate" and need people to review it. I'd be very appreciative if you voted for or against the graphic here: Featured_picture_candidates#Cosmic_Calendar_v3. Thanks!--Efbrazil (talk) 02:24, 26 May 2013 (UTC) On page 3 in the philosophical turn to human things section, the word "deducing" in the last sentence should be changed into "inducing" Universal rules are induced, not deduced from data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bas Defize (talk • contribs) 11:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Relative Positions of Countries in the World of Science

I found a paper with the title Relative Positions of Countries in the World of Science. But I failed to find an article in Wikipedia which relates to comparison of countries from the science progress point of view :) -- Andrew Krizhanovsky (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting link, but being on Arxiv.org with no mention of a journal or peer review suggests that it's not actually a published paper, but a preprint awaiting review. This is a topic which Wikipedia ought to have an article about it, but that source may not be suitable yet. MartinPoulter (talk) 14:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, you are right. -- Andrew Krizhanovsky (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Ops :) the same scholars published another paper A Two-Dimensional Approach to Evaluate the Scientific Production of Countries (Case Study: The Basic Sciences) in Scientometrics journal. The figures are not so colorful, but the topic is the same. -- Andrew Krizhanovsky (talk) 17:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 July 2013

"In the 17th and 18th centuries scientists increasingly sought to be formulate knowledge"

Does no one proof read this? Remove the "be"

68.111.76.93 (talk) 11:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done -- TOW  11:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 August 2013

Specifically, science is a sphere of knowledge within the sphere of philosophy. The two topics are not part of a dichotomy as it is often thought. Rather, philosophy plays a dominant role in reshaping what is termed science and consequently, the scientific method. This point can be demonstrated by considering how modern theories regarding what is typically thought to be a scientific discipline, is radically reshaped by philosophical revelations. An example of this can be demonstrated with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is the dominant school of thought concerning quantum mechanics. In this instance, what is typically though of as a strictly scientific discipline, has been radically altered due to philosophical findings. Specifically, it is the Schrödinger's Cat thought-experiment that explains that, defying what is traditionally believes to be scientifically impossible, a cat is both dead and non-dead at the same time. 90.206.142.34 (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

 Not done Please propose a specific change to the article supported by reliable sources. Arc de Ciel (talk) 07:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Criticism of "Practical impacts of scientific research" section

This section list the research on The Germ Theory (1700), and refers to Vaccination as one of its practical impact.

Even though I don't doubt the importance of The Germ Theory in further development of vaccines (especially in the 19th century), the relationship between early (smallpox) vaccine development as described in the Wikipedia article on Edward Jenner and Vaccination and The Germ Theory (1700) seems to be nonexistent. It appears to only be an evolution of the long standing practice of inoculation.

"Who invented vaccination?". Malta Medical Journal 23 (02). 2011. Retrieved 8 August 2012.

Quote from wikipedia article on Artificial Induction of immunity:

"In 1796, Edward Jenner, a doctor and scientist who had practiced variolation, performed an experiment based on the folk-knowledge that infection with cowpox, a disease with minor symptoms which was never fatal, also conferred immunity to smallpox.[10] Jenner induced cowpox infection by transferring material from a lesion on one patient to another, thus infecting the second patient with cowpox. He then demonstrated that the latter was immune by exposing him to smallpox. The principle had been demonstrated some years earlier by Benjamin Jesty, who had not publicized his discovery. Jenner described and generalised the process and then arranged to propagate cowpox for therapeutic use and he is credited with the discovery.[11] Vaccination took over from variolation. Jenner, like all members of the Royal Society in those days, was an empiricist.[12][13][14] The theory to support further advances in vaccination came later."

Quote from wikipedia article on Germ Theory of disease:

"Building on Leeuwenhoek's work, physician Nicolas Andry argued in 1700 that microorganisms he called "worms" were responsible for smallpox and other diseases.[2]"

Quote from wikipedia article on Vaccination:

"The smallpox vaccine was designed in 1796 by the British physician Edward Jenner, although at least six people had used the same principles several years earlier.[8]"

"The breakthrough came when a scientific description of the inoculation operation was submitted to the Royal Society in 1724 by Dr Emmanual Timoni, who had been the Montagu's family physician in Istanbul. Inoculation was adopted both in England and in France nearly half a century before Jenner's famous smallpox vaccine of 1796.[25]"

"Inoculation was already a standard practice, but involved serious risks. In 1721, Lady Mary Wortley Montagu had imported variolation to Britain after having observed it in Istanbul, where her husband was the British ambassador"

Quote from wikipedia article on Edward Jenner:

"Noting the common observation that milkmaids were generally immune to smallpox, Jenner postulated that the pus in the blisters that milkmaids received from cowpox (a disease similar to smallpox, but much less virulent) protected them from smallpox."

Ddumou (talk) 07:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, fair point. Perhaps we could change germ theory to vaccination. danielkueh (talk) 13:25, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I suggest to either change the date (1700 to something more recent such as 19th century) and mention the impact as the "further improvement of vaccination" or simply remove vaccination from the list all together. Dumou (talk) 17:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Criticism of Redirect: "Sciences" -> "Science"

I turned to Wikipedia to explore the older and wider meanings of "science" in hopes of getting an ostensively "objective" and "historical" as well as a "theoretical" and "ideal" understanding of the broadest and most general use of the word/concept "science"... And so I searched for "Sciences", knowing full well that the word simply meant an organized regular body of human knowledge.

I find my research stymied by the biases of Scientism when the broader concept of "Sciences" is reduced and redirected to "Science"...That was disappointing... The disappointment is somewhat mitigated by the traces of the broader humanistic conception of "science" evidenced in some of the text and in the graphics, where partial references to non-Natural Science sciences are included.

However, an encyclopedia is expected to be "unbiased", "exhaustive", "comprehensive" and non-partisan with regards to social and disciplinary struggle. To find this article informed by the reductionistic propaganda of Scientism reduces the credibility and usefulness of our Wikipedia project.

I have neither the time, energy, expertise or wherewithal to do the work myself... But I thought I'd share, to the best of my ability, my experience of trying to use Wikipedia in a scholarly pursuit, only to end in failure and disappointment. That's part of the process of refinement... I hope that it is remedied some day. All the best, Emyth (talk) 13:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)