Talk:2 May 2014 Odessa clashes

Discussion

Not the good name. Clashes started near the "Sobornaya Square", then moved to the "Grecheskaya Square", and ended there. Trade Union House was set aflame in revenge a few hours later. Барон Суббота (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done — RGloucester — ☎ 23:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I watched it unfold, there was no real break in the action. As rioters were pushed back by the crowds, and the police re-sided with the pro-Ukraine crowd, things just shifted to the square. I don't see how there was a split and that this latter part was revenge, it was all part of a fluid back and forth conflict and the fire was the knock out punch. --Львівське (говорити) 23:28, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

@Lvivske: I'm not sure if I agree with deletion, even though I usually would. This event is very significant, and has a large amount of coverage. We could explain the events step-by-step here, and I think that might be useful. That way, the unrest article doesn't get too clogged up with nitty-gritty. RGloucester — ☎ 23:31, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to delete the prod then if we're going to stick with the article. --Львівське (говорити) 23:36, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think the basic problem we have here is that Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia rather than a news source, which makes it ill equipped to deal with unfolding events. This could be significant/notable. Or not; we've seen a big proliferation of articles, some of them not so notable or ones which would better work as part of more general articles on this conflict. My guess is that "once the dust clears" (whenever that happens) a lot of the more minor split-offs should be merged into other articles. But as events on the ground unfold it's a little hard to predict which ones will merit notability and which ones won't. That's why I've very much hesitated getting involved in all the delete discussions. I'd give it a day or two and if more stuff happens then I'll remove the prod, but if not then it makes sense.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:39, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Here is the timeline.

http://timer.od.ua/news/storonniki_evromaydana_i_ul_tras_marshiruyut_po_odesse_vozmojni_besporyadki_translyatsiya_699.html

18:27. End of the clases on Grecheskaya Square.

19:08. Ultras decide to go to Kuliovoye Pole to destroy camp.

19:25 Clashes on Kulikovoye Pole

19:36 Setin the building afire.

@Lvivske: Do you think it has potential as an article, or is it not worth it? RGloucester — ☎ 23:40, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm split. On one hand 30+ died and that in of itself seems notable and memorable during the conflict as its the bloodiest (well, deadliest, they died of inhalation) day since the February sniper massacre. On the other hand it was just one day and we could probably keep all pertinent info in a paragraph or two on the main article. As for the title of this article, it seems OR as no one is going to google "sobornaya square clashes"—Львівське (говорити) 23:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

It isn't OR, so much as it is a neutral descriptive title per WP:NDESC. We can't say 'Odessa clashes', as that is too vague. Given that the riots began in the square, this makes the most sense to me. That can change, though. I'm less concerned about that, and more concerned about the article. I feel like the events that took place perhaps deserve more justice than can be done in the main article, like a play-by-play, given the murkiness of it all. However, if you think we should merge it back in and redirect, that's fine with me too. RGloucester — ☎ 23:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Why is Odessa too vague? I think it's fine —Львівське (говорити) 00:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I suppose I'm defeated, but it isn't like one called 2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots '2014 Kiev riots'. It is best to be precise. The clashes didn't take place across the whole city or oblast. They took place in a specific area. So long as we are constructing a title from scratch, it seems to make sense to be descriptive. RGloucester — ☎ 00:21, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Two things about Hru: a) Euromaidan was ongoing and it was an offshoot of it, so Kiev would be too broad, that article was specifically about the clashes on that street and not Kiev as a whole, b) the name Hrushevskoho was thrown around a lot in sources, making it easy.—Львівське (говорити) 00:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I've seen Sobornaya thrown about, that's why I was using that, as that was where the original Ukrainian protests was. It doesn't matter though. RGloucester — ☎ 00:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think, 2 May 2014 Odessa clashes is better solution because clashes were at the different streets and squares of the city. NickSt (talk) 00:22, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I suppose. I have a feeling that the common name will come to be something to do with the Trade Unions building, but we can leave that for later. For now, let's get this article up and running if we are going to keep it. RGloucester — ☎ 00:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Merger

Having screwed around with the content, looking at comparative measures…I think it makes most sense to remerge this. That seems disruptive, and I agree. My apologies. I needed to see how it would work out. However, there just isn't enough content to warrant an article. Anyone opposed to a re-merger? RGloucester — ☎ 00:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. Too much stuff is happening at once. I'll leave this alone for a while, to see how it turns out. RGloucester — ☎ 00:53, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The Washington post is reporting that "a pro-Ukrainian mob" started the fire

Ukraine suffers deadliest day in months; 34 killed in Odessa

The biggest loss of lives came in Odessa....

Friday evening, a pro-Ukrainian mob attacked a camp where the pro-Russian supporters had pitched tents, forcing them to flee to a nearby government building, a witness said. The mob then threw gasoline bombs into the building. Police said 31 people were killed when they choked on smoke or jumped out of windows.

Asked who had thrown the molotov cocktails, pro-Ukrainian activist Diana Berg said, “Our people — but now they are helping them to escape the building.”

El País also reported that "supporters of Kiev started the fire". So we have two reliable sources stating that the Trade Union House was set on fire by pro-Kiev demonstrators. If I add this information to the article, citing the sources, will other editors allow it to stand, or will they suppress it by undoing my edit? – Herzen (talk) 03:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

As long as it is sourced, do what you want. RGloucester — ☎ 03:10, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

✔ I've already included the WP source into the body --Львівське (говорити) 03:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Alternative versions

Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and presents the different sources and it can not only cite pro-guvernamental versions, but the opposition versions too. RGloucester suppressed the pro-Russian version of events. First, the name of movement pro-referendum: People’s Alternative movement. Hhmb (talk) 05:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I didn't suppress anything, but this will require discussion first. I'm not sure how to handle this situation. Either we present two versions of the events, which will be odd, or we wait for western sources to catch up. Let's wait for others to comment. Also, no one contests that there was a pro-Russian camp outside the Trade Unions building. RGloucester — ☎ 06:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Texts

Furthermore, the following texts:

• But, according to pro-Russian, they were camped from the previous day, when thousands of people in Odessa marched through its central streets on May 1, carrying placards that read “Odessa Is a Hero City”, “Referendum” and “Fascism Won’t Pass” and they decided to stay on Kulikovo Field until the authorities meet our demands for a referendum.
• According the pro-Russians a mass brawl at Grecheskaya Street was instigated by football fans, Right Sector and Self-Defence radicals from Kiev, who provoked clashes with federalization supporters and later set fire to a camp at Kulikovo Field where activists collected signatures to hold a referendum.
• Thirty-one people died whilst trapped in the burning Trade Unions House. Those who survived were cruelly beaten by Right Sector radicals with batons.
• Former governor and deputy Nikolai Skorik demands to urgently convene a session of the regional council about Friday's disorders. Regional council member and Odessa mayoral candidate Alexei Albu said that "Right Sector members who attacked the House of Trade Unions were fully equipped, armed and prepared beforehand".
• Russian Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, said that to burn people alive "are reminiscent of the crimes of the Nazis from whom the Ukrainian ultra-nationalists derive their ideological inspiration".

Hhmb (talk) 05:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Russian language page ?

Does anyone have an eye on the russian language page ? Considering the scale of Russian state- propoganda, I would be suprised if the Russian Wikipedia articles on this topic were not biased as well. Anybody round here read russian and could give an idea of what the article there looks like? (I guess changing it to a more neutral version may be difficult). Hmm 188.98.179.224 (talk) 09:13, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The russian language wikipedia has a section on events that occured before the fire(none of it is interesting). It goes into a little more detail on what exactly occurred on the day. I decided to translate this part, so people can see the difference in bias, and hopefully make this article better. Afterwards the article mentions the reaction of ukrainian/russian news sources and politicians, most of it is idiotic(e.g. The clashes were instigated by putin, ukraine planted military men in the protest). Anyway here is the part I translated: year 2014, 3 pm. Euromaidan supporters with fans of football clubs chernomorez and metalist organized a mach"for ukrainian unity" on sobornoy plaza. Apart from the slogan "for ukrainian unity, there was a slogan "knife the moskals" and others. The Euromaidan activists were wearing masks and carrying bats, rocks and holding shields. At 3pm there were 1500 aggresive people. At the same time came around 500 armed federalists came from kulikovo field. The clashes progressed to deripasovskoi street, on which both sides were throwing molotov cocktails. A member of the "for ukrainian unity" march recieved a fatal injury, and died before the ambulance arrived. Later around 200 pro russian activists were blocked on grechevskoi street, they were defended by the local police. Some of the federalists were shooting guns. Part of the the federalists moved to the afina shopping center and created defensive positions.Pro ukrainian activists pushed the activists to kulikova field, where they ransacked and burned their tents. Federalists hid inside the trade union building, which was positioned behind their tents. Federalists were throwing molotov cocktails from the roof of the trade union. Explosions were heard. Pro ukrainian activists were also throwing molotov cocktails one of which went inside the building causing a fire.Fire spread to a couple of floors, which was helped by the lateness of the fire brigade. After the arrival of the fire brigade, ukrainian nationalist and right sector activists hampered their job. They were yelling "russians burn".

Bias

Again, there was no weapon in the Trade Union Building. Here is the proof from the police:

http://www.unn.com.ua/ru/news/1337991-v-militsiyi-nazivayut-domislami-informatsiyu-pro-nibito-zagiblikh-v-odesi-rosiyan-i-pridnistrovtsiv

All shooting taked place at the clashes near Grecheskaya Square. There was no gunfire near Kulikovo Field.

Also, please add, that some people, jumping from the fire, were beated to death by protesters. Here is the link. http://otkat.od.ua/v-bolnice-skonchalsya-odesskij-deputat-postradavshij-na-kulikovom-pole/

Sorry, i cant change this myself, because my English is poor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Барон Суббота (talk • contribs) 10:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, the "peaceful rally" was consisted from football ultras from Odessa and Kharkov. The same scenario was used before in Kharkov and Donetsk, both times ended with clashes. In Kharkov they beat local pro-russian activists, in Donetsk they were beated themselves. Барон Суббота (talk) 10:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC) Please use google translate to translate the crucial sentences into English, paste them here, and I can enter the relevant information into the text after review. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

A peaceful rally was held by

I saw video from that rally and they were smashing windows and attacking women who protested against violence. It certainly wasn't "peaceful". --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:34, 3 May 2014 (UTC)