Talk:Prince-Bishopric of Utrecht

[Untitled]

I just cleaned the article a bit and added some whitespace, so the article is no longer just one big pile of text. The article might need a new introduction though. Goingin 16:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

distinguish bishop from archdiocese

The article as it stands is a bit confusing being both concerned with both the persons of the (Arch)bishop and the (insitution) of the Diocese. I am going to rewrite a bit and will split this article in 2, maybe three articles. (considering the fact that the OC and RC Dioceses of Utrecht are quite different institutions.

--Isolani 14:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Done, at least for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese. Don't know what folks want to do with the Old Catholics. Benkenobi18 (talk) 09:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Article is a conflation of several concepts

The article is a conflation of the actual Bishopric of Utrecht, which was disestablished in 1528, and its successor, the Lordship of Utrecht, which was established in 1528.

Both the Dutch Wikipedia article "Sticht Utrecht" and the French Wikipedia article "Principauté d'Utrecht" show that it ended in 1528.

George Edmundson wrote, in History of Holland, that Henry of the Palatinate, "who in opposition to his wishes had been elected Bishop of Utrecht, was compelled (1528) to cede to" Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, "the temporalities of the see, retaining the spiritual office only." Joseph Lins wrote, in the Catholic Encyclopedia, that Henry of the Palatinate who was also Bishop of Freising and Worms, resigned the see in 1528 with the consent of the chapter, and transferred his secular authority to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, who was also Duke of Brabant and Count of Holland. Thus Utrecht came under the sovereignty of the Hapsburgs; the Chapters voluntarily transferred their right of electing the bishop to Charles V, and Pope Clement VII gave his consent to the proceeding.

The article also confuses two types of administrative areas, the "Diocese of Utrecht", an ecclesiastical jurisdiction, with the "Bishopric of Utrecht", a civil jurisdiction. The diocese existed before, during, and after the bishopric.

References

–BoBoMisiu (talk) 01:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

This 2003 edit added content about 18th century events in an article about something that ended in 1528. This was clearly a misunderstanding about what the article was about. This 2005 edit added content which corrected the list of officials and added historical context but that correction was edited to:

• remove the fact that there was a schism
• remove the distinction between the religious and secular aspects
• remove the fact that there were disputes with emperors and popes
• remove the fact that incompetent men were elected
• remove the Frankish consent in establishing an episcopal see in Utrecht
• remove the fact that land and privileges were granted by the emperors
• remove the fact that disputed episcopal elections led to papal interdiction
• remove the fact that Codde was suspended in 1702
• remove the fact that two successive bishop-appointees, appointed by Spain, were neither approved nor permitted to enter the diocese because of government opposition
• remove the fact that the Jansenists and gallican ideas spread while Neercassel was bishop
• remove the fact that Codde was suspended in 1701
• remove the fact that Steenoven was elected in 1723

Similarly, added content about the Dutch Mission and the next edit removed the list of officials and the term Dutch Mission. A few months later another list was added, along with the first reference (which was incorrectly located in a header).

I think that this 2008 edit, in which Arnoutf changed part of the lead
from: [...] is a former Archbishopric [...] until the collapse of the Empire in the French Revolutionary Wars in 1806, being a territory of the Habsburgs from 1528 onwards.
to: [...] is the Archbishopric [...] until the reformation in the Netherlands ended the official Catholic church hierarchy in 1580. The archbishopric was reinstated in 1853.
because the contributor thought he needed to "remove anti reformation/pro catholic POV lines" but unfortunately distorted the basic facts about the subject. Again, in my opinion, just because the article is a conflation.

These facts need reliable sources and to be reintegrated into the article.

–BoBoMisiu (talk) 02:33, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Similarly, Watisfictie added a Former Country Infobox to the Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580) article. I, BoBoMisiu, reverted Watisfictie's edit and removed the Infobox.

–BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

BoBoMisiu, I thought it was wel known that in the early middle ages kings transferred worldly powers to bishops, since bishops - in contrary to counts and dukes - ought not to leave legitimate heirs. More on this in the following references, supporting that Archdiocese Utrecht had civil jurisdiction, before the Bishopric of Utrecht was erected:

1. http://books.google.nl/books?id=Y50fi5AvrY8C&lpg=PA90&dq=bishop%20utrecht%20secular%20power&hl=nl&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q=utrecht%20secular%20power&f=false
2. http://books.google.nl/books?id=bnZocwvkcykC&lpg=PA158&dq=bishop%20utrecht%20secular%20power&hl=nl&pg=PA158#v=onepage&q=bishop%20utrecht%20secular%20power&f=false
3. http://books.google.nl/books?id=ShOnykzju1QC&lpg=PA274&dq=bishop%20utrecht%20medieval%20authority&hl=nl&pg=PA274#v=onepage&q=bishop%20utrecht%20medieval%20authority&f=false

--Watisfictie (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Lists of bishops

Relevant discussion at

→ Talk:Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580)#Lists of bishops → Talk:Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht#Lists of bishops → Talk:Dutch Mission#Lists of bishops → Talk:Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands#Lists of bishops → Talk:Old Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht#Lists of bishops

I think that this article, as well as the related articles found in the relevant discussion box above, can be improved by:

• moving all the lists of bishops during the period before the suppression of the original archdiocese into either Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580) article or List of bishops and archbishops of Utrecht (695–1580) or List of bishops and archbishops of Utrecht, as is done in the corresponding article in the Dutch Wikipedia
• moving all the lists of bishops and administrators during the period of the missions into either Dutch Mission or List of apostolic vicars and officials of the Dutch Mission, as is done in the corresponding article in the Dutch Wikipedia
• moving all the lists of Old Catholic archbishops into either Old Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht or a separate List of Old Catholic archbishops of Utrecht, as is done in the corresponding article in the Dutch Wikipedia
• The Bishopric of Utrecht existed from 1024 to 1528. The only those bishops who were in the ecclesial office between 1024 and 1528 were also in the contemporaneous secular office of prince ruling over secular feudal estates. This should either be noted in a list of bishops or be contained in a separate List of prince-bishops and prince-archbishops of Utrecht.

Please comment in Talk:Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht#Lists of bishops to centralize the discussion.

–BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2014 (UTC)