Talk:Tenor

Welcome to the Tenor discussion page

Constructive suggestions and discussion welcome! The contents of this page are for ongoing discussions. For past discussions please see the archives.

Top C and above

As a tenor with a decent top C please see my addition to this page. The tenor of the page (forgive the pun) is that notes above top C are quite usual and achievable. Nothing is further from the truth. In any event such high notes are rare (if non-existent) in vocal scores and must be regarded as "show pieces" a freak almost. Somehow the article suggests that it is quite normal to sign F and G above top C!!!! My addition goes some way to correcting this - I hope it will not be removed entirely. But as a singer I shall not have it sugegsted that a tenor must have a D,E or F or even higher. Sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.197.238 (talk) 23:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Tenor roles in operettas and musicals section

I propose deleting this section. It isn't a complete list (a complete list would be extraordinarily difficult to compile, and of dubious value), nor a meaningfully selective list. Rather, it's an avenue for people to add their favorite tenor roles as they stumble across the article, much like "pop culture references" sections. Fireplace 00:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

One could say the same of all the lists. Maybe they should be limited to major roles, with separate articles of little value for exhaustive lists. There doesn't seem much point in deleting this list without deleting all the others, which would be a net loss of information however slight. Highnote 01:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The lists under voice type serve a more specific purpose by using famous roles to give an example of the flavor of the narrower voice types in ways that a description alone cannot do. By contrast, the bulky list at the end doesn't seem to impart any encyclopedic information about tenors. Fireplace 01:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

If a resourceful Wikipedian could come up with some fair-use audio samples of the different tenor voice types, that would be a big contribution. A look at the articles on the other voice ranges shows they each include a list of roles for musicals/operettas. The baritone article consigns the whole list of roles to a separate article. I propose doing the same for this article, including the list of musical/operetta roles. Ideally the main article would list the tenor voice types with representative audio samples of each one. Highnote 02:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree about audio samples. I've seen the other articles, and depending on how this discussion goes will propose the same thing on them. Regard separate articles... I argued above that the list is unencyclopedic... forking it off doesn't change that. Fireplace 02:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

One of the goals of an encyclopedia is to be comprehensive, or so I read, and a list of roles is a part of comprehensive knowledge about a voice range. It informs us about what singers with that voice range do, though admittedly in eye-glazing fashion. If the list of musical/operetta roles doesn't impart any knowledge about the subtypes of tenor voices because those genres make no such distinctions, that's secondary. The roles that Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote are just as valid as Verdi's. Highnote 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, my objections aren't based on a musical tenor vs. opera tenor distinction. Regarding comprehensiveness, there are likely 100,000+ tenor roles. As I've stressed, this current list is neither complete nor meaningfully selective. Fireplace 23:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

A comprehensive list is not the same as an exhaustive one. I agree that an exhaustive list is neither feasible nor desirable, but no list at all implies that tenors have no musical/operetta roles. Although some may disagree, tenors are not castratos. Put all the lists in a separate article and have done with it. Highnote 13:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As Wikipedia is indeed a encyclopedia for knowledge this list should be reinstated. It is indeed not complete however it does provide performers with an Idea of what vocal capabilities are required to sing a certain musical tenor role. This is essential for musicians especially tenors to be able to identify where they are in vocal capability for roles. The list should be re-instated. I for one had often used the list however I am now no longer able to use this and in my view the article has become a catastrophe with no insight to the Vocalisation of Tenors —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.40.212 (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This list most deinately should be reinstated, with the understanding that the list isn't comprehensive. For a fledgling tenor who was just given his first aria should be able to research the role that the aria comes from, as well as operas with arias containing the same criteria (Timbre, range, orchestration etc.) I feel like if this list were compiled with particular vocal fach in mind, it could be more beneficial. However, in respect to the argument that there can't possibly be a list of all operatic roles for tenors, there is a list of commonly done repetoire that every young tenor, or interested knowledge-seeker should be able to see. The importance of a tenor knowing of Alfredo in La Traviata, or Nemorino in L'Elisir d'Amore, is infinately more useful than a tenor being able to recognize Se Di Lauri from Mozart's Mitridate, or other virtually unheard of operas. I propose that this list of operatic roles be roles from productions that have been performed in the top list venues in the last 10 years. Invariably, one will see repetitions and overlapping (as in the back of the Classical Singer magazine, and Opera News, under the production lists) Wikipedia should be a very easily accessible resource that is not professing to be the be all and end all. If a tenor wants to delve into the subject of tenor roles that are never performed, that is his prerogative, but for those students that are looking ahead to possible roles for their career, they should be able to get an overview on wikipedia. *visit questavoce.blogspot.com for opinion on vocal music, audition experiences, and answers to preprofessional questions, from preprofessional colleagues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

tenor for other instruments besides the voice!

what about tenor saxophones and tenor recorders? This article is a bit biased on voice and should have more information on what the term "tenor" tends to mean when used about instruments.--Sonjaaa 06:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Female Tenors

I've just been informed by an acquaintance that she sings tenor. That prompted me to investigate here but there's no mention of female tenors. She did say that it's rare. Google gives 1500+ references to "female tenor" as opposed to over 20,000 for "male soprano". If anyone knows more about this then it would be a useful inclusion (even if it's to say that it's a mistake to assign a female voice to a tenor range). (I've made the same request in Voice_type) 89.243.136.53 13:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

There's is such a thing, in a loose sense. That is, there are women who can sing low enough to cover tenor parts. They're not common, though, and historically haven't had any music written especially for them (unlike, say, countertenors/castrati/whatever). In my experience the topic really only comes up in choirs where they are of course used either in the tenor or the alto section, depending on their individual tessitura, the needs of the choir, and so on. That said, "female tenor" is definitely not a standard voice classification, more a useful shorthand for "woman whose voice's tessitura, surprisingly, lies in the tenor range." Personally, I don't think it merits its own mention on the page. --George 23:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi I came upon this side because of Johnny Cashs song "Daddy sang bass (mama sang tenor)". Therefore I was also wandering why Cash is asociatiang a female with a male type of voice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.166.142.248 (talk) 14:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have met a few women who have sung tenor but they generally are altos that sing tenor to compensate for a lack of male tenors. I think its worth noting in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.93.3 (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not that unusual for women to sing tenor, baritone or bass - just not encouraged. Historically it was not unheard of either and all-female choirs could include all ranges. It makes no sense for men to be able to sing alto and soprano, but for women to be unable to sing tenor or bass. The women in this choir - http://www.spav.co.uk/ - are not altos singing tenor, they are tenors and basses —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.169.130.178 (talk) 17:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm a tenor and a girl.. Darn, I was hoping my dear wikipedia would answer some questions for me. I'm a bit higher than a tenor but too low to sing an alto part well as they often go up into really high notes.. I'm best between D3 and E5. I have to go into my head voice at the F#4, like a MAN. Knowing that I am one, I'm going to say, YES, women can be tenors and it should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.47.244 (talk) 22:28, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I am a woman and I sing tenor in our choir at church (there are actually THREE female tenors in our choir).

When I first joined the choir, I actually pressed the director on this issue -- "Am I an actual tenor ... or just a mislabeled contralto?" He tested my range by having me do scales (in order to find my voice break) ... and I am actually a true tenor.

When it comes to singing solos, it's been a challenge for me to wrap my head around the fact that I am a woman singing a "guy's" part. I've had to think in terms of what's best for my voice as opposed to what's appropriate for my gender. LizFL (talk) 16:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

choral

The section on choral music is perhaps confusing to lay-people. First, it is said that in (four-part) choral music the tenor is just above bass. Later, the undefined term baritone is used.Kdammers 02:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

tenor solo repertoire with orchestra

The tenor voice has a select solo reperatoire. I hope people can expand this section!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawrence18uk (talk • contribs) 13:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 

yes, there should be a section on non-operatic solos for tenor including works like the Passions (J.S Bach). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.93.3 (talk) 13:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Including a list of musical roles

I invite everyone to join this discussion on the voice type talk page. Past consensus has been to not include a list of such roles but perhaps this topic should be re-addressed. This topic involves all voice types as there has been a strong attempt to try and make each voice type page similar in content and format.Nrswanson (talk) 22:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Merger of Tenore di grazia into Tenor

The topic of Tenore di grazia seems to be sufficiently covered in the tenor article and is therefor redundant.Nrswanson (talk) 23:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• I second the merge proposal. —Latiligence (talk) 16:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• I second the merge proposal, as well. Contents do not seem quite acceptable and, anyway, completely lack any kind of reference.Jeanambr (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Tenore di grazia is a perfectly useful and long-established category, quite suitable for its own article. Absence of references has nothing to do with the merger question. Let's find the references. I oppose merger. Eebahgum (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the aforementioned comment. The history associated with Tenore di grazia is more specific than the normal, run of the mill light lyric tenor voice. This is an encyclopedia, the more specific and definitive that we can be on each individual subject, the better. I oppose the merger. * visit questavoce.blogspot.com for opinions on vocal music, audition experiences and other preprofessional questions from preprofessional colleagues —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

• The Tenore di grazia article is good on its own as Eebahgum said. I have seen several articles that would contain a section that had right below it, "Main article- (name of article here)" If you don't know what im talking about the Carmina Burana (Orff) article has one under the "text" and "In pop culture" sections. Perhaps if there was one of those under the Lirical-Legario tenor section in the tenor article rather then merging. —Cola765 (talk) 00:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Images?

As a musically-inebriated human being, I find it difficult to understand what a 'tenor' is, or what his or her range is. What is it in comparison with a baritone or falsetto? Can someone put a scale together that compares the common vocal registers? The image could then be customized to have the tenor scale highlighted on the tenor article, falsetto scaled highlighted on the falsetto article, etc. 24.235.160.136 (talk) 02:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm am afraid you are confusing the terms voice type and vocal register. The terms tenor and baritone refer to two specific voice type for men and are not vocal registers. Falsetto, however, is a vocal register and not a voice type. Vocal registers refer to a specific kind of vocal production defined by the way the larynx is used. All voice types (i.e. tenor, baritone, bass, soprano, contralto, etc.) have the same four vocal registers (vocal fry, modal, falsetto, whistle). There is no set vocal range for the different vocal registers as each voice has there own unique register placements and register breaks. There are however, tendencies within voice types on where the different vocal registers tend to begin and end. All voices are unique though and so there is no definitive chart one can make. Falsetto, as a vocal register, can be used by all the voice types. However, the place at which falsetto begins and ends is unique to every voice with some voices having a much greater natural range than others. Unlike modal voice where there is more a consistantly identifiable set of vocal range, there tends to be much more variety in the range of falsetto vocal production from individual to individual. Therefore, charting a "falsetto range" is really not possible or practical. There are already charts comparing the vocal ranges of the different voice types at the vocal range article. However, vocal range is not like math and voices often hold wider or smaller ranges than those listed. Those given are merely what's average and are not meant to be seen as a hard and fast rule. Also vocal range is only one factor and not even the most important one in determining a singers voice type. Voice type is really more about vocal tessitura (where the voice feels most comfortable singing) and vocal timbre (the characteristic sound of the voice) rather than merely vocal range. I suggest reading the voice type article.Nrswanson (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Highest Male Voice

Just for the sake of fairness and accuracy, should this article read "highest male voice within the modal register"? There are countertenors who are capable of singing in the "female" vocal ranges while in the modal register. I'm not saying its ridiculously common, but I also don't think it's so rare that the opening of the article should read that way, because it almost implies that all countertenors employ falsetto or some other non-modal register to sing in ranges above that typically designated as "tenor." I just think it would be more accurate to say "The tenor is a type of male singing voice and is, usually, the highest male voice within the modal register." Anyone agree, disagree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.26.180 (talk) 04:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The entire process of training a countertenor *after the abolishment of castrati* involves the strengthening of the falsetto of a baritone. The product is such that the man sounds much like a mezzo soprano, or even higher. The term itself, an italian diminuative for "not real," implies that the means of production are not what is typically natural for a singer. Not to say that countertenors are UNNATURAL, but if the desired effect is to sound like a female, and no natural means of vocal production are employed, why should it be thrown into the highest male category? I think that there should be mention of it, and a link to a separate article, but as far as the highest true male voice is concerned, i think that the leggiero tenor has that title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

There are also what are referred to as "natural castrati." While somewhat uncommon, there are men who due to hormonal imbalances continue to have a modal voice in soprano or mezzo range. 2 says you, says two 16:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Your voice has nothing to do with hormones. It's all about the size of your larynx and the thickness of your vocal cords (smaller, thinner vocal cords produce higher pitches while larger, thicker ones produce lower ones).

Ultimately, it's a matter of genetics. LizFL (talk) 16:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Andrea Bocelli

What type of tenor is Bocelli, I'm not sure he is a lyric tenor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.243.97 (talk) 22:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Andrea Bocelli is a light lyric tenor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.96.135.12 (talk) 05:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC) \\

I ADDED HIM IN THE Lirico-Leggiero section, cause that is excaly his type of voice.--Ahmad123987 (talk) 22:45, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Freddie Mercury a leggiero tenor??

I notice that Freddie Mercury has been including in the list of leggiero tenors. Freddie certainly had a very versatile voice but I would question this classification. Assigning a classical voice classification to a rock singer is somewhat controversial in itself, but if we were to define Freddie Mercury's voice using classical terminology I'd have thought heldentenor might be more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contains Mild Peril (talk • contribs) 13:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree completely. The heldentenor voice is a voice that has enough depth and volume and carrying power to sail across 20 horns playing the same pitch at octaves with the voice. Freddie Mercury, (as much as i love him, and what he did for modern music) cannot, in my opinion be classified as a tenor at all. If one were to listen to Freddie Mercury's speaking voice, one would find it to be much lower than one might expect. The reason being, that FM had developed his falsetto to an extreme. He was not singing in the modal register when he was singing, for the most part. If you listen closely, you can hear the pitch level at which he had to switch to falsetto. however, his transitions weren't nearly smooth and seamless enough and his resonance, and vocal production, while very impressive, was not trained enough to deserve a classical classification. If, however, one was going to attribute a fach for FM, i would have to say a very high baritone, with an incredible extension, and a very impressive falsetto. *visit questavoce.blogspot.com for other discussions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Freddie's a tenor. See this. [1]--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 17:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with IP editor - rangewise he might fit as a tenor, but his timbre and vocal color are rich enough that he's more likely a baritone with a a huge upper extension and versatile falsetto. Its really no different than adding a low C extension to a double bass - in that its still a double bass, it doesn't turn into an octobass - which is a completely different instrument with a deeper color. 2 says you, says two 16:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

His timbre is too light to be a baritone. Plus he did most of his singing in the tenor range and used FULL VOICE for the most part when he was singing (not falsetto).--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 22:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Why is "assigning a classical voice classification to a rock singer... somewhat controversial"? What a bunch of snobs. The implication of that statement is no other type of voice is valid except opera- that dinosaur- and classical; popular singers, present and past are meaningless and don't even deserve a voice classication? Opera singers are "just" singers- without the page, they're mute. Recent singer-composers from Brian Wilson, The Beatles, to Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, Elton John then Ian Anderson, Jon Anderson, Michael McDonald (now that's a tenor), Freddie Mercury up to Dave Matthews and many others, are the true creators; they write what's on the page, perform it and do it brilliantly. So what's the snob take on Peter Townshend. Not only did he sing, and play an excellent guitar, he wrote the opera that he, and The Who performed??Dcrasno (talk) 17:39, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Octave confusion

Maybe I'm wrong here but I think the writer of this article is confused over Middle C and octave numbers.

According to the Wikipedia article on Scientific pitch notation, Middle C (C4) is the line between the Treble and Bass clefs. However this article on Tenors claims the lowest note for Anthony in Sweeney Todd is an Ab2, that's a flattened note on the bottom space of the bass clef. This is certainly not the lowest note he sings and seems unusually low for any tenor to sing! He does however sing F5 (The second word sang in the song Johanna, "I feel you, Johanna...") which is higher than the the D5 note from Songs for a New World which the article claims to be beyond the expected range of a tenor.

I apologise if I'm the one in the wrong!

Rpxadair (talk • contribs) 01:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

unfortunately, you are wrong:) you are right with middle c being (C4) which makes the tenor high C (C5). the ocaves change at C, so D4 is the space below the last line of the treble staff, and the space above one line above the bass clef. In Johanna, the "feel" is in fact an F4. the F5 that you are thinking of is the high F that Arturo sings in I Puritani, by Bellini. Most tenor Repetoire has G4, A4 and occasionally B and Bb4, but only with the big stuff are there C5 and higher. I am fairly familiar with Songs for a new world, and i dont recall there being a high D5 in the show, (typical musical theatre singers usually do not have the classical vocal development and knowledge required to sing stratospheric tessatura. That is not to say that there are not opera singers that scream high notes, but most musical theatre composers do not write that tessatura for the tenors. In short, i believe that you were right on most points, but the F5 in johanna is not there, and you meant a F4. *please visit questavoce.blogspot.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I am confused with vocal ranges too. The problem is that I've recently bumped into "Fra gli amplessi" score from Così fan tutte (you may find the score in references section of that article). It shows pitches up to A5 for "Ferrando", and according to this article it looks pretty much impossible for a tenor. --Dlougach (talk) 22:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Michael Jackson

Michael's Vocal Coach said he was a high tenor. By the 1990s he could go from B1-B5 in full voice - he could reach up to C6 in falsetto. So why say tenors low extreme is Ab2? AttilaBrady (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Mingo a spinto?

I've just had a good laugh. How could anyone call that tiny drowned out voice a spinto? I don't agree that he's a dramatic like some seem to think but he's certainly closer to a dramatic than a spinto. A spinto is a Caruso, a Tucker, or a Corelli. A Mario Lanza? This article is an absolute joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.156.204 (talk) 04:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Leggiero / leggero

Can someone explain the spelling of leggero as leggiero? I'm pretty sure that contemporary Italian usage is not leggiero; see it:Ortografia italiana#I fonologica, diacritica e "ortografica" (bottom of table under "Grafie antiquate"), it:wikt:leggero (there is no it:wikt:leggiero) and this discussion. Is the spelling leggiero some Anglicism or an eccentric part of the musicologists' vocabulary? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

PS: some findings at Talk:Ruggero Leoncavallo#Ruggero or Ruggiero? might be of interest. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I added Gianni Raimondi to the list of Lirico tenor. He was one of the most important voices after the world war und deserves ABSOLUTELY a place among the greatest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.33.254 (talk) 04:51, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Now I'm Confused

I'm a female that regards myself as basically tenor (but reading the Wikipedia page, I'm resigned to, but not obstinant to, calling myself "countertenor" even though I can hit notes lower than that. Also, because I can comfortably hit around E6 whistle [up to G6 straining, and I have hit C7 before] which are soprano and alto. Then I read where voice classification is also based on timbre and et cetera, so now I really don't know what I am). All that mess of info aside, this is the meat of the confusion: On a forum somewhere, I saw it stated that Chester Bennington's vocal range starts at roughly A2. The problem therein lies that he's considered tenor (although the forum got its info from a Youtube vid, and the creator of the vid considers Chester baritone), and I can hit most of the same notes he can. My basic question is this: Who's in the wrong here? Am I baritone, or is Chester tenor (since we have similar voices at a similar range, pitch, and timbre [actually, my timbre's a little lower than his])? Or was the creator of the video confused about the second and third octaves (this seems to create a lot of confusion) and confused the forum participators? Does ANYONE at all understand what's going on here with this situation? Anything you can answer would be at least a little help... what a pretzel! 98.84.73.215 (talk) 00:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A woman can not be a tenor I think you are a contralto. Tenor, baritone and bass only apply to men. 98.110.220.218 (talk) 03:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

How then does one purport to classify a woman who can sing LOWER than a contralto? Are we to keep lowering the bottom end of the contralto range indefinitely to encompass what for men would be a tenor/baritone range?

If so, then the term "contralto" is rendered meaningless as a result. It becomes little more than a catch-all term with no clearly defined lower limit.

What exactly separates a "contralto" from a "tenor"? (Other than gender?) How are we to define the terms? Where do we draw the line?

Low voices are not the exclusive province of the male gender alone. LizFL (talk) 04:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I am highly skeptical that this person truely has a lower vocal range than that of the contralto voice type since the typical contralto can sing into the mid part of the bass vocal range (although some can indeed sing even lower). No one said that low voices were an exclusively male property. However, the terms "tenor", "baritone", and "bass" are exclusively applied to men. Any book you will find on voice classification divides the voice types along sex lines. It's not descrimanatory, just a fact. Sex is one of the factors in determining voice type. It's always been that way, and no book on voice classification will tell you differently. This has always been the case throughout history. Also, true contaltos (which are rare) are female voices which have a very low vocal range that is similar to the vocal ranges found in men. However, these women have a different timbre and often a different tessitura than male singers who have a similar vocal range. Hence why they are not lumped together with male singers into the same voice classification. Female contaltos also experience passagio in different places in their voices then basses, baritones and tenors do, so their are practical reasons not to lump them together with men when teaching singing and when composing music for these voices. Remember, that physically, men's vocal chords are much longer and thicker than women's vocal chords and this plays an important factor in not only the quality of sound produced but also the physical process of singing. There are some differences in singing technique between men and women.4meter4 (talk) 04:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

As a reply to whoever said the thing about contralto being bottomless even in theory it is not. But the TIPYCAL contralto range spans from E3 to E5.98.110.220.218 (talk) 20:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It is a fact that in large amateur choirs, there are often some women singing tenor. At least this is the case in the large New York City choirs, such as The New York Oratorio Society. But I never saw a woman sing as a tenor soloist. So this is just something that choir directors do to (a) accommodate untrained women singers who feel comfortable in the tenor range; and (b) smooth out the highest tenor notes that some amateur tenors might have trouble singing in tune. Plus, there are often more women than men interested in singing in choruses and, particularly in amateur choruses, there is often a serious lack of tenors. So, this is a "practical" and happy solution that music directors have found. In my experience, they never point this out or discuss it in the program; they merely list the names of those in the tenor section alphabetically without comment. I am sure that a large majority of these women who have been singing tenor either regard themselves as altos or could have, with training, sung alto; but why should they, when the music director of their choir is saying: "Can anyone else sing tenor? We only have 15 tenors, but 90 altos." It works very well in practice, and if you read the New York Times reviews of these choirs, the reviewers never say "oh horror, I saw some ladies singing tenor!" However, if you go to music schools, I do not think that you will find any women being trained as tenors. Now, back to Wikipedia: Should any of this be mentioned in the article - i.e. that amateur women singers sometimes feel comfortable singing tenor, and do? I don't think so, because I doubt you will find much written about it, and because it does not affect the professional singing world. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:49, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

A more legitimate "female tenor" question

Is there a technical term for women who sing in a tenor part in choirs that have them? I'm well-aware that women (other than transgender women, or possibly cisgender women with hormal problems) could not technically be lower than contralto in terms of your actual individual voice type, but regardless, what would you print on a program if you're singing in mixed-voice four-part harmony and the tenor part happens to be covered by a contralto? As others have said, this is common in amateur choirs where women outnumber men. I'm doing an arrangement of an SATB work where the tenor part is being taken by a low contralto, and not sure how to list her voice type in the program. Beggarsbanquet (talk) 08:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Domingo is Spinto?

May I know based on what that he is labelled as Spinto,and not Dramatic? If it is based on most of his repertoire as listed under Spinto, then you should also look at Dramatic Tenor's repertoire. I admit that it is a bit hard to categorized his fach since he repertoire is too vast but as someone who have been listening/watching Domingo for many years, Dramatic Tenor fits him the most. Also, look at your "definition" of Dramatic Tenor, that is how many fans of Domingo and opera critics portrays Domingo's voice. But I decided not to change anything. I just wish if wikipedia's facts are more accurate than this and based on thorough analysis, than just because of somebody here thinks that it was right. Think of his signature roles.

--Jay 00:38, 11 January 2013

Who's the "you" you're addressing? This page has been edited, as is the Wikipedia way, by many editors, a surprising number of which have chosen not to create an account or have very few edits to their credit. As a result, the lists of roles and singers on this page, and on the other voice type pages, are often dubious and rarely cited. I suspect most serious editors in the field of classical music have abandoned these articles. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The anonymous editor or editors is not alone in finding it rather strange to have a tenor article that makes no mention at all of Domingo among so many other names! Repertoire of Plácido Domingo starts with some lyric roles like Alfredo, Rodolfo then moves into Faust, Don José, Don Carlo. Otello and Enée turn up later, and Parsifal, Siegmund & Figaro later still. Though only debut dates are given and I'm not sure when things got dropped, it seems like we could fairly say Don José is a signature role characteristic of his voice at its peak, or else we could have a paragraph about why he can't be listed in any single category. Sparafucil (talk) 09:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

This list is supposed to present notable tenors as examples for each fach or voice type. The list of roles for Domingo you mention makes it quite clear that he defies such pigeon-holing. I'm sure reliable sources can be found to classify him in several ways, including as a baritone; that just makes him unsuitable for this list, which is not simply a list of tenors. Such a list is much easier navigated through Category:Tenors and its subcategories. Apart from most of the Mozart tenors listed here, no singer's fach is sourced in this list, so I would support removing all the names from this article unless they can be unambiguously sourced. But I have no great hope that this will happen. For now, I suggest to remove Domingo once more. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:43, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• I propose to remove all names of "example singers" from all these operatic voice type articles. They are not meant to be lists of singers, and for the reasons touched on by Michael above, they are very problematic and both misleading and confusing. They should contain examples of the roles written for these voice types, and at most the singer who created that role. As this applies to all the voice type articles, I have opened a discussion on the general issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera#Problems with voice type articles and a potential solution. Voceditenore (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Ben Heppner is a Heldentenor

Whoever removed Ben Heppner as a heldentenor, can you please not do so again! Ben Heppner is a heldentenor and should be mentioned as such. Thank you. Reverend Edward Brain, D.D. (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Tenor high C

An early paragraph says "tenor high c" is C5 and calls it the C above middle c. But surely the figure shows C6 - 2 c's above middle c. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.126.191 (talk) 13:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You missed the "8" under the pictured G-clef which indicates that the notes are to be transposed down by 1 octave from the written score; this is also called "8vb" or ottava bassa. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 15:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

"slender emission of sound"

Hello. I am just curious as to what was meant by this phrase in the description of the Mozart tenor type. Being a singer myself and an admirer of Mozart tenors (Léopold Simoneau is one who springs to mind), I have some idea of what is meant by "slender emission of sound", but I feel that it might not be clear to many readers and/or seem too subjective. Might it not need further explanation, or linking to another page that describes what is meant? Could the author add a short description of what is meant here on the Talk page?

Otherwise, I feel, this is a fine article.