Talk:Anarchism

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Proposed New Layout: The idea of reorganizing this page has been suggested below under the heading "Organization". A working version can be found here. Feel free to take part in the process.

Talk archives & Open Tasks

• Talk:Anarchism/Archives - List of archives.
• Template:AnarchismOpenTask - List of open tasks.

Organization

This has been discussed many times before, I'm sure, but I could find nothing on the most recent talk page about the organization of the article. Here is the current layout.

   * 1 Origins
         o 1.1 Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
   * 2 Anarchism and workers' revolution
         o 2.1 Anarchist communism
               + 2.1.1 Kropotkin
         o 2.2 Anarchism and organized labor
         o 2.3 The Russian Revolution
         o 2.4 The fight against fascism
   * 3 Anarchism and the individual
         o 3.1 Max Stirner's egoism
         o 3.2 Individualist anarchism
   * 4 Issues in anarchism
         o 4.1 Ends and means
         o 4.2 Capitalism
               + 4.2.1 Anarcho-capitalism
               + 4.2.2 Neocolonialism and globalization
         o 4.3 Post-left and poststructuralism
         o 4.4 Feminism and anti-racism
         o 4.5 The environment
         o 4.6 Religion
   * 5 Criticisms of anarchism
   * 6 Cultural phenomena
   * 7 See also
         o 7.1 Historical events
         o 7.2 Anarchism by region/culture
         o 7.3 Books
   * 8 Notes and references
   * 9 External links

The article lacks a coheesive organizational structure in my opinion. I can't determine if this is an article about the history of anarchism, an introduction to anarchism, or both. I'm leaning toward both, but if that is the case, it needs to be more clear. This article may need two sections, one on anarchism as an ideal, and another on anarchism through history. Or perhaps each historical section needs a short aside regarding the ideals of each historical figure or organization. Thoughts? CJames745 07:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm just now looking over the encarta article previously mentioned, and I think it serves as a good model for the organization of the article, although we would surely want to make some changes. The layout is essentially as follows.

   * 1 Introduction
   * 2 Origins of Anarchism
   * 3 Schools of Anarchist Thought
   * 4 Anarchism as a Social Movement
   * 5 Anarchism Since 1945

A fusion of the two might looks something like this? (First draft of course)

   * 1 Introduction
   * 2 Origins of Anarchism
         o 2.1 Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
   * 3 Schools of Anarchist Thought
         o 3.1 Mutualism
         o 3.2 Anarchist collectivism
         o 3.3 Anarchist communism
               + 3.3.1 Kropotkin
         o 3.4 Anarchist Syndicalism
         o 3.5 Anarchism and the individual
               + 3.5.1 Max Stirner's egoism
               + 3.5.2 Anarchist Individualism
   * 4 Anarchism as a Social Movement
         o 4.1 First International
         o 4.2 Anarchism and organized labor
         o 4.3 The Russian Revolution
         o 4.4 The fight against fascism
   * 5 Issues in anarchism
         o 5.1 Ends and means
         o 5.2 Capitalism
               + 5.2.1 Anarcho-capitalism
               + 5.2.2 Neocolonialism and globalization
         o 5.3 Feminism and anti-racism
         o 5.4 The environment
         o 5.5 Religion
   * 6 Anarchism Since 1945
         o 6.1 Post-left and poststructuralism
         o 6.2 Post Anarchism?
   * 7 Criticisms of anarchism
   * 8 Cultural phenomena
   * 9 See also
         o 9.1 Historical events
         o 9.2 Anarchism by region/culture
         o 9.3 Books
   * 10 Notes and references
   * 11 External links

I would appreciate any thoughts on this possible alternative. CJames745 08:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

At first glance, your draft looks quite good. --AaronS 13:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Although we can trace many schools back into the 1830s and 1840s, the influences of mutualism, collectivism and individualism peaked in the late 19th century, while those of syndicalism and communism grew in the early 20th century. So we can say that 'classic' syndicalism incorporates many ideas from mutualism and collectivism (and sometimes individualism) while 'classic' mutualism doesn't incorporate as many ideas from syndicalism and communism. The later sections (in the article) like the later developments (in our history) can refer to the earlier ones, but not vice-versa. Godwin could be 2.1, Proudhon, Warren and Stirner 2.2-2.4. Mixing systems and mixed systems (i.e. panarchism) could be 3.1 as an intro, then the details of each system starting with mutualism in 3.2, then individualism and collectivism in 3.3 and 3.4, and syndicalism and communism in 3.5 and 3.6 (though whether communism should focus on Kropotkin's or Platformism is beyond me), with post-stuff in 3.7 and beyond. Possession and Property could go between 5.1 and 5.2. Jacob Haller 05:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Kropotkin seems more important than platformism. Maybe a bit of both though. I personally like both of the layouts so I have no real objection. The Ungovernable Force 06:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I can see what you mean. Perhpase the "origins of anarchism" section would do better after the schools of thought section anyway, as, like the section on anarchism as a social movement, it is historical. I'll make some changes to this time line and place them in my talk page. CJames745 06:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Instead of your talk page, just create a sandbox. Start a page titled User:CJames745/Sandbox. Actually, just click on the link and start typing. That way it doesn't take up a bunch of room on your talk page, screw up the formatting etc. Just a thought. The Ungovernable Force 06:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much, I was actually about to ask how to do that. I'll do that now. CJames745 06:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it's done. You can view the new layout at User:CJames745/Sandbox. Feel free to edit it. In fact I think we all should so that we can figure out how we want this article to be arranged. Would it be too presumptious to paste a link to this page at the top of the talk page? CJames745 06:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be ok. I'll go put it up now. The Ungovernable Force 06:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

That layout seems well organized. Good work. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 09:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm currently too busy to do it, but if someone can actually cut and paste the current text into that order on you're test page, that would be nice. Anything that needs to be written can be done there. Once we have decided on a version we like, just cut and paste into this page. The Ungovernable Force 09:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It lacks talk about Jeffersonian democracy, which is important to understand philosophical anarchism. Intangible 16:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Ungovernable, I had been thinking the same thing, so you pushed me over the edge. There is now a mosty-fleshed out version of the anarchism article based on the new layout. A few of the sections are missing, and some of the sections are taken directly from the libertarian socialism article. Maybe this project could solve some of the issues regarding that article as well (the discussion of a merger or redirect or whatever else.) Or just make them worse... CJames745 10:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson

While I certainly admire the man, I'm not sure such a large quotation from him in this article is appropriate. The content is good, the placement is not. I'm going to move it to Anarchism in the United States, a sentence on Jeffersons point of view might be worth having somewhere in the article. - FrancisTyers · 15:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Seriously. The amount of original research that is being injected into this article is strange, to say the least. --AaronS 16:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be pointless to talk about anarchism without Jefferson. It's like starting at end of the novel, only reading the last 2 pages and be done with it. Instead, one starts of course at the beginning. Intangible 16:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

As long as this is just your original research, it has no place in the article. --AaronS 16:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I am only citing scholars...I could even have cited the 1889 article, if I wanted to. Intangible 16:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

If you read True Civilization by Josiah Warren he cites Jefferson's Declaration of Independence. [1] Also, Voltairine de Cleyre cites Jefferson in Anarchism and American Traditions [2] TheIndividualist 18:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Good. It would be appropriate to put a sentence about Jefferson's influence on the individualists in the American individualists section. Bacchiad 14:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou, TheIndividualist and Intangible. Shannon^{duck talk} 06:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

FrancisTyers moving my edit to another article

That was real cute, FrancisTyers, moving my edit to another article thereby getting it out of the way of this communisto-anarchist article and taking credit for my research at the same time. Clever. BTW, how many edits did you make on Sunday the 23rd, Francis? Let me count..uh 1, 2, 3, 4....9 edits in one day. You could get blocked for that if I'm not mistaken. I may be wrong but I believe there's a WP:3RR rule. Oh well, happy editing! Shannon^{duck talk} 06:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You said you're "not sure such a large quotation from him in this article is appropriate". Well, I and Intangible and Theindividualist do think it is appropriate. Vision Thing can't be here right now, but something tells me he would think it's appropriate, too. Shannon^{duck talk} 06:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was me (VoluntarySlave) who moved your section on Jefferson to Origins of anarchism. As I explained above, this is an article about anarchism, not about non-anarchists who influenced anarchism. If you think Jefferson is so significant an influence on anarchism as to be the only non-anarchist with their own section in the article, could you explain why?

Also, while I'm replying to you, I notice you added "the teachings of Jesus" as a precursor of anarchism. While I agree that many Christians have developed proto-anarchist (or actually anarchist) views based on their religion, are the gospels themselves directly anti-authoritarian? I'm not enormously familiar with them, so I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking for clarification. And giving a reference would be helpful, as the article on Jesus doesn't appear to discuss his politics. VoluntarySlave 08:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I've just noticed that FrancisTyers also moved your edit to Anarchism in the United States. I'll let him put forward his own reasons for moving your text out of this article, but I'd appreciate a response to mine. VoluntarySlave 08:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Like I said above. - FrancisTyers · 09:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Devil! --AaronS 13:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Layout

A possible layout, mostly fleshed out, for the anarchism article can be seen here. Some of the information is from the libertarian socialism article. CJames745 12:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

your requests for info

VoluntarySlave, FrancisTyers, Aaron, I have already answered most of your questions above. I won't be caught in your mind games. I have answered your questions. Intangible has. TheIndivdualist has. Answering once is enough for any of us.

As far as the big section about Proudhon: Proudhon called himself an anarchist, agreed, but could not tell the difference between anarchy and government. So we may as well include a section on Daffy Duck and his influence on the movement.

This is an article about anarchism. Not Russian anarchism. Not European anarchism. Just anarchism. So it's not a big leap to assume that American anarchism (or the anarchism of other countries) should be included.

There is more on American anarchism that needs to be in the article. These edits are just a start.

I'll find references to show how Jesus was anti-authoritarian and revolutionary and he most certainly was. I can't account for why the revolutionary direction to his desciples was not included in the article Jesus, I didn't write it. I can imagine why, though, LOL.

You, socialist-communists just keep dominating this article like it personally belongs to you. It doesn't. You do the same thing to, or worse, stuff that you accuse other editors of doing, and then harass them to no end. Like what you are doing to Intangible right now, which I just discovered today.

To what ends will you go to guard this aricle and keep it communistic? How low will you people go? Please try and behave yourselves. Shannon^{duck talk} 16:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to attack you Shannon. But someone who claims to be an anarchist and is actively editing a site as such should not state that "The only government that I would even begin to trust is a libertarian Jeffersonian one" as trusting governments of any kind is antithetical to being an anarchist. Whether you can be a patriot to the United States of America and also truly be an anarchist i personally don't think so but i will remain tolerant of your views despite your apparent inability to be tolerant of people here who hold alternate beliefs from yourself. Intangible, you wrote, "No one in their right minds would call for abrogation of any form of state in the Jefferson era." Do you mean that no sane person would call for the abolishment of any form of state in the Jeffersonian era? What does that mean? Anarchists call for the abolishment of any state in every era. According to that statement, at least, you dont seem to understand the basic tenants of anarchism any better than Shannon and should therefore not be editing a site on the subject. This has nothing to do with who I agree with or not ideologically, or whether I am collectivist or not, it has to do with the quality and accuracy of an article that many people will view and on which Ancaps seem intent on pushing their POV. Piece, Blockader

You could not write about it. If you did, there was always the guillotine or a hanging. Of course people could live in communities far away from government control, but I doubt anyone living there did so because they were trying to live in "anarchism," they were looking for the Frontier. Intangible 17:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

<sarcasm>Yes, and now it's our job to reinterpret history so that those people thought how we think they should have thought.</sarcasm> --AaronS 18:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is sarcastic about citing sources...Intangible 19:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Shannon, I may have missed it, but I haven't seen a response to my question. Why do you believe that American non-anarchist precursors of anarchism are uniquely significant to understanding anarchism, such that they are the only non-anarchists who should have their own section in the article? Note that American anarchism (as opposed to American non-anarchism) is already included in the section on indvidualism. VoluntarySlave 19:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Why did individualist anarchism precede any influence of anarcho-communism in North America... Intangible 21:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Because the USA is where individualist anarchism started. Communism was not an American idea. Those who went to establish America were "rugged individualists" inspired by the classical liberals. Thomas Jefferson was basically an anarchist who saw government as an unfortunate "necessary evil" and whose strongly promoted individualism. The communists ideas came in from outside the country from a different mindset. PlayersPlace 21:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

To quote Rudolf Rocker: "Men like Josiah Warren, Stephen Pearl Andrews, Lysander Spooner, William Greene, Ezra Heywood and Benjamin Tucker were influenced in their intellectual developments much more by the principles expressed in the Declaration of Independence than by those of any of the representatives of libertarian socialism in Europe. They were all hundred per cent American by descent, and almost all of them were born in the New England states. As a matter of fact, this school of thought had found literary expression in America before any modern radical movements were even thought of in Europe." Intangible 22:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Response to Shannon

ROTFLMAO. --AaronS 18:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Blockader. What's the deal with ending your comments with the word "piece"? If you mean "peace" why can't you say that? If you really mean "piece," would you explain why? I've corrected you on this before, when I thought it was just a one-time typo. Now it appears to be a habit. Does it mean something? --Christofurio 18:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC) (Peace).

Chris, by signing out with "piece" I am referencing a graphic common during the seventies which read "piece now" arranged around various firearms. i believe it was first employed/created by the weathermen or weather underground though i first encountered it on a American Indian Movement pamphlet. I liked the pun and have used it ever since. Piece, Blockader

Also, I was wondering where one might meet and engage some ancaps in face-to-face discussion. I'm not familiar with any among any of the anarchist groups or collectives in the southeast but then again why would an ancap join a collective? Would a libertarian party event be the proper place to find some? Just wondering. It seems like if anarcho-capitalists are anywhere it would be the southeast. Or maybe Montana.Blockader

I'm glad to discover that it isn't just poor spelling. As for anarcho-caps, you could probably find a few of us at LP conventions. Personally, when I joined the LP I was a standard-issue minimum-government type. I decided that anarcho-capitalism was a more consistent, and cogent, position somewhat later. But then I remained active in the LP for a couple of years before deciding that its activities were futile on its own terms and dropping out. So I know personally I wasn't alone in my anarcho-cap views during those two years or so.

As to why anarcho-caps don't join collectives -- we have nothing in principle against it. After all, no principle of mine prohibits me from contributing my time, and even a bit of cash now and then, to wiki, though I expect no profit from it. I could join a collective if I were made to feel welcome there. The problem is that some of our fellow anarchists don't make us feel welcome, because they believe we're statist wolves dressing up as sheep in order to infiltrate their flock or something. It is difficult to work together successfully with people who think you a wolf.

Finally: regarding the geography, the greatest concentration of anarcho-caps is probably in the Chicago area, where the U.Chi. combination of academic rigor and free-market fervor sets the stage properly. --Christofurio 15:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

the bickering

Can we all stop the bickering now and get down to improving this article in a friendly and collaberative manner? It is possible.

As to the further assaults on my understanding of anarchy, patriotism, etc. I will say this and then not say it again. I understand anarchy and I understand patriotism. I clarified what I wrote on my page concerning governments, etc. Patriotism to many Americans is good citizenship. It does not mean blind loyalty to a party or blind loyalty to a president, etc. It does mean keeping an honest eye on your government to ensure that it is the kind of government you would want to have. (We have a government whether we want one or not.) I hate this treasonous (Bush) administration as I hate the treasonous administrations of Bill Clinton and Franklin Delano Roosevelt and many more. Patriotism is being critical of, and not being afraid to express dissent of your government. Please read the U.S. Declaration of Independence. The definition you seem to be expressing is the one that these traitorous presidents, (Bush, Reagan, etc.) would have us all believe. I don't buy it.

Another thing about patriotism is this: As much as I hate these bastards, (the presidents that I have just mentioned), the idea of a foreign country like the allies communist China and Russia, or the European Union, for instance, coming in here and taking control gets me even way more infuriated. There has been socialist influence in the U.S. since the turn of the 20th century. But the blatant attempt at overthrowing this government, through the spreading of propaganda on the internet and through Wikipedia, honestly makes me sick. If communist China thinks it will take my country it has another think coming. Not while I'm alive and kicking. Shannon^{duck talk} 19:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Dude, can you please assume good faith. I mean, as it turns out I actually am a Maoist propogandist seeking to undermine the US through the terrible power of Wikipedia (and we're doing pretty well. Go Hillary in '08!), but you shouldn't go around just assuming it. VoluntarySlave 20:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

My God, this is too precious. --AaronS 20:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised that someone so smitten with capitalism would denounce modern day China :?. As far as communist nations subverting the U.S. go I am holding out for Cuba cause they seem to come up with the best mixed drinks. Or if Chavez engineers a successful coup here we could all hang out with oil and cocaine! Hooray, Blockader

All I know is that the Revolution begins with Wikipedia!!!!1 --AaronS 21:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ursula K. Le Guin: "self-avowed anarchist"?

There is some controversy about whether Ursula K. Le Guin is an anarchist. Actually I've never seen her referred to as an anarchist except on this wikipedia page. Anyway, in attempting to discover an actual answer I have found the following three sources:

• [Michael Krasny] set out to ask a broad range of thinkers what they had read that had provided moral insight or served as a catalyst or paradigm of virtue, ethical behavior, or simply living the kind of life that makes a difference. What texts do they look to when they want moral guideposts or standards for ethical action?

Ursula K. Le Guin, Novelist

I read Lao-tzu and the Tao Te Ching at 14. My father had it around the house in the old edition with the Chinese text. I sneaked a peek and was and remain fascinated. Taoism is still an underlayer in my work. It begins talking about what we can't talk about--an old mysticism that intertwines with Buddhism and is practical and not theistic. Before and beyond God. There's a humorous and easygoing aspect to it that I like temperamentally and that fits in with anarchism. Pacifist anarchism and Lao-tzu have a lot of connection with each other, especially in the 20th century.[3]

• Q: How did you become a Taoist, if you would consider yourself one?

UKL: By reading Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, mostly. I don't have my library here so I don't dare try to give you any names of scholars and popularisers who helped me understand Taoism - I would forget most of them. I don't really know how one "is" a Taoist. I do know that Taoist ideas inform a great deal of my writing.[4]

• ELM: You have talked about dry times in writing, and how sometimes one must wait for the writing tank to fill. How do you deal with such fluctuations in your writing life? Have you noticed consistent cycles? What helps you get through the dry times and refill your writer’s tank?

UKL: You sit and wait and wait and wait and wait. And fret. And consult the I Ching, which tells you to wait. So you wait and wait . . .

Traveling is bad for fiction but good for poetry. That's the only cycle I have noticed.

Work always leads to work, so it's good in a dry time to have some interest to pursue, something I want to learn about (because I'm a head-worker). Like the Revolution of 1830, say. I read about it for years. Just because I liked it. I was very interested for years in sleep and dream research. In other years I read a lot of utopias, and about utopias, and about Gandhi, and about Anarchism. All those learnings, which I pursued purely because I was interested in the subject, turned into novels in the end.[5]

These statements hardly clear up the ambiguity, other than to illustrate that she claims pacifism as much as anarchism, and Taoism more often. She may "be" a Taoist, and maybe an anarchist and a pacifist as well -- note her disavowal and use of quotes around "is" -- or she may just be "interested in subjects" that "turn into novels." 67.168.216.176 20:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Where does this article refer to Le Guin? Blockader

She's been added to and deleted from the "examples of prominent publicly self-avowed anarchists" list under the Cultural phenomena section a number of times. 67.168.216.176 21:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think maybe her prominence is in as much question as her "self-avowed" anarchism. Blockader

Are you kidding? She's one of the most prominent sci-fi authors alive today. If you want to describe what she writes as sci-fi, anyway. And she has anarchist themes in almost all her books. You only ever hear about The Dispossessed, but I think it's at least as clear in other works. She has said she's found anarchism fascinating, but stopped short of calling herself an anarchist. Someone cited a secondary source earlier that said she eschewed labels so that her work could remain accessible to a larger audience. But it is true she's not self-avowed. Whether that matters is another question. Sarge Baldy 21:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's the same one, the secondary source also says "Anarchism acts as an underlying theme throughout all of Ursula Le Guin's novels and short stories. It is portrayed in the different life forms and cultures encountered, and in the varied political systems and methods of social organization."[6] This is someone who confuses "anarchism as an underlying theme" with politics or anthropology as underlying themes. If "it is true she's not self-avowed," then putting Le Guin on a list of "publicly self-avowed anarchists" is unambiguously false, and surely it's not a serious "question" whether putting falsehoods in Wikipedia "matters." 67.168.216.176 04:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

UKL is one of the people interviewed in the documentary "Anarchism in America," which i would guess would be because she considers herself one.

Well, it's clear AK Press considers her one[7], but on the other hand there's some confusion about whether and on what basis she's even in the film[8]. Those of us who've never seen it can only hope somebody transcribes any relevant quotes. 67.168.216.176 23:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen an instance of her using the term to describe herself. But then again, I haven't seen Chomsky or Zinn describe themselves as anarchists either (the former being a "fellow traveler" and the latter claiming to incorporate "some" anarchism). Yet all three are definately associated with anarchism and associate themselves with it. It would seem odd to have no mention of Chomsky on the anarchism page, what if the description was just changed to "associate themselves with anarchism", as that would seem to apply to all three? Blahblahblahblahblahblah 18:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Chomsky has identified himself as an anarchist any number of times. Zinn has called himself "something of an anarchist" once in his life, which is why there's a link next to his name. It could be changed to "people who have written about anarchism" if that's really the kind of list we want. 67.168.216.176 23:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson and OR

Thomas Jefferson is an extremely interesting historical and political figure, and admirable in many ways. His place in this article, however, is a bit dubious. Shannon, you claim that your edits are not original research, because they are referenced. I think that you might misunderstand what is meant by "original research." The policy, in a nutshell, is this: articles may not contain any previously unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position. What you present is a new analysis or synthesis of published materials that serves to advance the position that the history of anarchism can be traced back to Thomas Jefferson. You're not providing enough evidence from reliable sources to show that your claims are verifiable. Nobody is attempting to stifle your work, or attack you. We're just trying to make the article accurate. Alright? --AaronS 00:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I just provided a quote from Rocker that says that individualist anarchism came from an earlier tradition, different from the one that produced European anarchism. Did you miss that one? Intangible 00:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

And if you worry that I'm using a primary source here, this quote was noted in a review of Rocker's book by a Yale professor, who said that: "Rocker's conclusions concerning American radicalism is the most interesting part of his book. Pointing out the universal and inevitable movement of cultural influences back and forth among nations, he indicts the stupidity of the "one hundred per cent Americans" who distort the importance of such streams of influence and label radicalism as a foreign importation." Then he quotes Rocker, which quote I already provided somewhere above here. Intangible 01:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Aaron. Thanks. I know what OR is, I've read the policy and I don't think what Intangible and TheIndivdualist and I are doing can be considered OR. We are getting plenty of citations to back up our case. There is no way that anarchism in America has been influenced more by Europe and Russia than it has by Americans. We are getting more and more to back this up.

VoluntarySlave asked me: Why do you believe that American non-anarchist precursors of anarchism are uniquely significant to understanding anarchism, such that they are the only non-anarchists who should have their own section in the article? Note that American anarchism (as opposed to American non-anarchism) is already included in the section on indvidualism. Is this a trick question? Thoreau was an anarchist. Thomas Jefferson was an anarchist at heart but would have had a hard time getting his great fight for our freedom into the backbone of this country if he had admitted it to the other statesmen. Proudhon said he was an anarchist, didn't seem to be able to distinguish between anarchy and government, and his ideas sound exactly like Jefferson, who after all, came before him. The Russian and European anarchists get a huge portion of this article, while the American and individualists get a small crappy bit at the end of the article. It all started more in America, ironically, than it did anywhere else. If you can't follow what I have just written, then I don't know what else to say. Shannon^{duck talk} 03:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Shannon; I hadn't been clear as to on precisely what grounds you thought the section you added belonged in the article. Now I realize it's because you believe that Jefferson and Thoreau were anarchists. As far as I'm aware, this is not the generally accepted view of either figure. If you can find reliable sources to show that Jefferson and Thoreau are widely held to have been anarchists, though, then they ought to be in the article. VoluntarySlave 05:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think most people doubt Thoreau as an anarchist, though he never called himself one. Emma Goldman went so far to refer to him as "the greatest American anarchist", and he was an obvious influence on early environmental anarchists such as Edward Abbey. Sarge Baldy 06:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I personally like many of TJ's ideas and I think he may have held rudimentary anarchist ideals. However, many historians have posited that his beliefs were often unstable, even bordering on amorphous. Jefferson's continuously changing religious affiliations, for example. Though I guess these vacillations don't preclude him from being included in this article, they do throw into question what he actually believed. I think TJ should be excluded here simply based upon the fact that he not only helped found 2 governments (Articles and Constitutional) but served as president of one of them (twice), which are not the actions of an anarchist of any ilk. Blockader

Proudhon held governmental office. Does that mean he's not an anarchist? TheIndividualist 01:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Proudhon identified himself as an anarchist and is widely and traditionally identified as an anarchist by both anarchists and scholars. Jefferson never identified himself as an anarchist, only sometimes identified himself as even anti-state (which is not the same thing as being an anarchist) and is neither widely nor traditionally identified as being an anarchist by anarchists or scholars. But after all those things, the comparison is entirely valid. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 09:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"THE classic land for the efflorescence and experimentations of bourgeois Liberal-Anarchism was America. If bourgeois Anarchism called for free land, free capital, free labor, and free exchange, what country could appear more favorable than the United States? (*1) Indeed, in a country where Liberalism could afford to appear as Radicalism, could there be a sharp line drawn between Liberalism and Liberal- Anarchism? The conditions of American life not only had forced men into a certain pattern of individualism, but had also compelled them to idealize this individualism and to make it an end in itself. It was in the United States that the development of State versus Individual had reached its sharpest point. Liberalism and Liberal-Anarchism could well blend into one another....Indeed, there was plenty of patriotic precedent for the views of such Anarchism. The Liberal had declared: "The best government is that which governs least." The Anarchist merely added: "The best government, then, is no government." The American Revolution had recognized, both theoretically and practically, the Right of Revolution. This implied the superiority of moral law to government; and, using his conscience as his guide, Thoreau declared his own revolution. The American Revolution, then, was the great inspiration for early American Anarchism! Nay, more. Anarchism could be said to stem from the early settlers themselves. Were not Mrs. Anne Hutchinson and Mary Dwyer in the seventeenth century perhaps the first Anarchistic persons to set foot upon this country? And what of the Quakers? In the nineteenth century, American Liberal-Anarchism simply broke its religious ties and stepped out in its own right." [9] TheIndividualist 04:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What you have laboriously detailed above would indeed make an interesting subject for a history or political science thesis or doctorate but I don't think you can show that it is a generally accepted idea among historians or political scientists. What you might do is to enroll in a accredited doctoral program, successfully defend this hypothesis before your committee, and then gain acceptance among the academic community. Then it would be appropriate in this article. Piece,Blockader

I don't really care if we mention Jefferson or Thoreau, but I think the quote from Jefferson was needlessly long. I cut it down, and honestly, I think that entire section could stand to be cut in at least half. I think it's interesting, but it doesn't deserve that much attention, especially not on this page. I think Orgins of Anarchism is a good place for a more thorough treatment of that topic. And although I agree with Sarge about Thoreau being considered an anarchist by many, I don't think scholars usually label him as such (anarchism is only mentioned once on his page here, in reference to the Goldman quote). It's OR for us to say he's an anarchist, unless we say who said it (and like I said, that section is already too long). The Ungovernable Force 05:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If the section is going to stay in, I think it needs to be reworked to make it clear what we're actually saying; currently it's just three quotes with little or no explanation of exactly why they're relevant (clearly, they have anti-state themes, but presumably, if Jefferson and Thoreau deserve a section of their own, there's more to it than that). In contrast, for example, the following section tells us that Proudhon a) called himself an anarchists, b) is considered by some to be the founder of modern anarchist theory, before it goes on to briefly explain his theory. A similar structure to the Jefferson/Thoreau section would be helpful, I think. VoluntarySlave 06:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't be too hard to find a reliable source to verify a simple claim like this: Individualist anarchism finds its roots in 18th and 19th century American and French political thought, from non-anarchists like Thomas Jefferson to self-proclaimed anarchists like Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. Something to that extent could work. "French" might be a bit too specific, but "European" is probably too general. Any thoughts? --AaronS 17:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Individualist anarchism was invented by Josiah Warren. His influences were Thomas Jefferson for the individualist (classical liberal) philosophy and Adam Smith for the labor theory of value. Proudhon had no part in its origination but later was an influence through Benjamin Tucker. IndividualistAnarchist 18:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

continuing this discussion

Thanks to everybody for their input and comments.

This comes from WP:OR Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

I would hardly refer to TheIndividualist's input as OR. There is little in there that even needs referencing as it refers to historical facts that are well accepted. He did add a reference. Let's just stop the need to make this article a left-leaning thing when it is a basic article about anarchism. TheIndividualist's statement is brilliant in it's insight, though. I don't think there is a policy against brilliant insight.

• This is an article about anarchism, not European anarchism, not Russian anarchism, not communist anarchism. Can we agree on that?

• An anarchist is one who would like to see a society with no ruling power. Can we agree on that?

• The left and the right, throughout history, have managed to create governments that insure the freedom of the rulers while minimizing the freedom of the ruled. Can we agree on that?

• The American revolution was an unheard of phenomenon when it happened. It was built on the influence of a number of men and women who had a wide range of ideals and motivations, some selfish, some not, thereby rendering it neither left nor right, but possibly a combination of the two. (What was liberal then is considered by some to be conservative now.) Please let's not start making value judgements here about laissez-faire philosophy or liberalism or conservatism (whose meanings are largely non-existent now). Study straight American history first then make judgements, at least. Not someone's take on American history, but the actual writings of some of these men and women. The actual actions that were done. I'm still pretty sure we won't all agree on that. There are plenty, involved in this debate, who do.

• Let's just work together toward creating a well-rounded inclusive article. Can we agree on that? Shannon^{duck talk} 17:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, I really think you should read an encyclopedia entry on anarchism if you haven't yet. This article is actually less left-leaning than all of the one's I've read. Anarchism is typically regared as anti-capitalist (see here and here). The first article says it is "basically anticapitalist". The second one is a lot more in depth, but in a three page article there is only one paragraph on pro-market anarchism, and says it has been reborn as Libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism. I think you want to give undue weight to the more "right-wing" anarchists who have have very little impact on anarchism as a social movement and are not often given a whole lot of emphasis in other articles about anarchism. The Ungovernable Force 05:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Ungovernable Force, when I study I like to study the actual history and the events that happened rather than rely on another researcher's point of view. I like to just get the facts and then draw my own conclusions. It's like reading a newspaper. One can read a right or left leaning paper, where some of the facts are left out, and come to right or left leaning conclusions. I would much rather just get the facts and make up my own mind about the event. Encyclopedias may spout all sorts of things but that does not necessarily make them correct. They often leave a few things out, according to the bias of the author. Look at Wikipedia for example. If I lived in, say the year 2100, and dug this stuff out of a capsule, I would be led to believe that socialism and libertarianism and communism were all the same thing. That classical liberalism and modern liberalism are the same thing or they don't exist independently of each other when they do. I would be led to believe that anarchism is socialism when it just isn't. It may be what some people want, but it's not what other anarchists want, no matter what some encyclopedia says. History is history, it should never be tampered with.

Are you seriously calling Jefferson and Thoreau right-wing? My God, that's off the wall. Jefferson endlessy fought for our freedom and he and some of his friends were threatened with their lives because of it. Thoreau was an anarchist. That's just fact and he stood up for what he believed in. You say that he didn't have a signficant influence on the world? Thoreau was an inspiration for both Ghandi and Martin Luther King, who both said this. Jefferson's writings and his brave struggles along with others like Patrick Henry and Daniel Shays, for instance, inspired the fight for freedom all over the world.

EbonyTotem left this edit summary when he reverted my edits, "reverting U.S. nationalist vandalism". If that isn't one attacking, bigoted statement, I don't know what is.

There are several of us that are trying to turn this into a well rounded article about anarchism, which is one that would include U.S. anarchism. You don't own this thing. It belongs to all of us. If it were a better article I would leave it alone. But I'm sorry. It needs work in order to make it a comprehensive piece on anarchy. Shannon^{duck talk} 06:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

First off, Jefferson isn't even an anarchist. Second, Thoreau does have some anarchist leanings and is considered by some to be an anarchist, but as far as I know he is rarely labelled an anarchist by scholars. And by using right-wing, I wasn't refering to Jefferson and Thoreau since calling them anarchists is itself disputed. I was describing what I see as the general trend of trying to disassociate "anarchism" from it's anti-capitalist elements and instead present it as mere anti-statism. I think this wasn't clear from my original post and I see why you might have thought I was refering to those two. The difference between right and left anarchists is economic anyways, (and the distinction between right and left anarchists is usually made by an-caps, so I'm repeating what they would say, which is why I quoted it). Many "left" anarchist including myself don't think it's a very valid distinction since anarchism is traditionally viewed as anti-capitalist in all forms. You're the one who said the article is left-leaning, and you tried to balance this with your edits, which I would presume are right-leaning. Let me also say that I highly admire Thoreau and some aspects of Jefferson. That was in no way meant to be an attack on them. Regarding influence, I was refering to indiv-anarchists (particularly the pro-market ones) who have not led any kind of visible social movements (especially ones that have actually been labelled "anarchist"), whereas anarcho-communists, -socialists, and other anti-cap anarchists have.

As for that other users edit summary, I agree that it was out of line (and the edit was also questionable, since this is currently under discussion). I would have reverted to my version if you hadn't reverted to your's before I saw it (I was writing a post for this talk page at the time).

As for bias within scholarly sources, you're right, they are there and they will always be there. Unfortunately for you, wikipedia is based on researching reliable sources, and most reliable sources (rightly or wrongly) consider anarchism to be anti-capitalist. You seem to be making an exagerated claim though when you say "If I lived in, say the year 2100, and dug this stuff out of a capsule, I would be led to believe that socialism and libertarianism and communism were all the same thing." First off, the term "libertarian" originally described a subgroup of socialists anyways, so the only revisionists here are pro-market "Libertarians". In Europe, the term still often refers to socialists unless specified otherwise. Anyways, they might also think Libertarianism (pro-capitalist stlye) is synonomous with anarchism (as defined by academic sources and most anarchists) which is just plain false. They are seperate ideologies which is why they have seperate pages. That's not to say there isn't some overlap between the ideas because there clearly is, but they are not the same.

I admire that you like to make up your own mind on these things, but as I've said before, your conclusions do not belong on wikipedia but elsewhere. You are trying to redefine what anarchism means in a scholarly sense, but this is not the place to do so. Now, if you go get a book published on this that can be viewed as a reliable source, then we can discuss this again, but as for now you seem to be merely adding your own interpretation of anarchism into this article while going against most "reliable sources" (as defined by wikipedia policy). The Ungovernable Force 07:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly correct, Ungovernable, but don't expect anyone who wants to change this article from being based upon accepted facts to being based upon personal preferences to be affected in anyway by your cogent and capable explanation. The fact is, these ancaps have no real social movement and therefore must find alternate venues and systems through which to spread their beliefs. Rather than propaganda by the deed, their lack of real-life groups leads them to stoop to mere propaganda in order to exert influence or even seem viable. Ten days ago I felt there was room within anarchism for everybody, ancaps and primitivists included, but now I have come to disdain anarchist-capitalists and will share my experiences within the local collective and at our regional gathering. Thankyou, Shannon, Intagible, etc, you have taught me to despise your kind, though I still respect your right to free association and belief. Piece, Blockader

despise our kind?

You always did despise our kind. Socialists have always, along with fascists, monarchists, and all dictator-lover-types despised those that fought for freedom. This has been going on for centuries I would imagine. In the United States it has been going on, at least, since the birth of this country. Attempts at grabbing control of us (the people) and of our freedom have been made by the British, most of our own wealthy landowners, the British sympathizers who slithered into our governmental system, communists and socialists. The socialistic influence is most outstanding with the presidensts Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. It is currently in siege by the fascistic George W. Bush administration with the help and support of the socialist left. (The Rebublicans and the Democrats.) Some of us call them the Republicrats as their sameness is marked. This is fact whether some scholar finds it be so or not. Shannon^{duck talk} 15:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That's absolutely true. It's no wonder that someone of your insight and scholarship claims to have no need for secondary references. You already know the Truth. --AaronS 17:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Shannon, making yourself sound paranoid, jingoistic, and otherwise generally unhinged increases neither your repute on this talk page nor the validity of your edits in the anarchism article. On the anarcho-capitalist page you wrote, "As an added note. I am not an anarcho-capitalist. So don't accuse me of supporting this article based on some imagined alliance with anarcho-capitalism or anything else. Shannonduck talk 15:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)." On your user site you claim, "I am a true anarchist..." If you are not an anarchist-capitalist why do you continue to push an ancap agenda on a page that is meant, and does, represent the accepted tenants and manifestations of anarchism in both academia and contempory society? Are you an agent provocateur meant to divide and divert actual anarchists? Blockader

C'mon now, let's not get into accusing people of being provocateurs and crap like that. Responding to incivility with incivility yourself won't help anything. As for your comments Shannon, I was going to compliment you today on your talk page for your willingness to put aside personal issues recently, but now I will not be doing so. I was starting to respect you more as an editor, but again you have fallen into your over-the-top (and completely false IMO) rhetoric. Please try to focus on content. The Ungovernable Force 20:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Uhhh, I was being facetious. I guess I shoulda placed a smiley face at the end to make it clear I was joking. Apologies, Blockader

a response to your nasty attacks and condescention

First, Blockader: What you said to me, making yourself sound paranoid, jingoistic, and otherwise generally unhinged..there's a term for that here. I believe it's WP:PA.

Second: How do you get that my edits are anarcho-capitalist? Show me where, please.

Third: And this is just food for thought, nothing more.. You are still asserting, UGF, that I am right-wing. How is this? Because I am trying to insert the influence of the U.S. into this article? What you said actually affirms what I said about the left and the right or the Democrats and the Republicans. Democrats always think if you are not Democrat than you must be Republican. Republicans always think if you're not Republican than you must be Democrat. It speaks of the narrow-mindedness of these two groups. I say they are opposite sides of the same rotten-to-the-core coin.

You still don't get what I am saying and you probably never will, concerning the exterme left and right and their inherent corruption. How can you accuse me of being right-wing when I repeatedly express disgust for right-wingers. (Bush and Reagan et al)?

Anarchists are neither left nor right. If I had to live in a system that claimed to be anarchistic while it still dictated how I must carry on my affairs, I would come to the conclusion that this was not an anarchism at all, but another system of governmental control, whether it had a centralized power or not. If what you mean by communist anarchy is people swapping work and goods without the use of money, I'll go for that. But if it is forced on me I will not. If a system included the choice of people selling and buying for money or swapping without the use of money I would go for that for sure. Think of this. If people sold stuff for money, other people would not have to buy it if they didn't want to. If they objected to the store, say and it's practices or to the quality of the goods it sold, they wouldn't buy the goods. It's called boycott. It works. If they would rather trade with goods or labor, they would do that instead. It's called freedom. I kinda like it. I like freedom. It's good stuff. Shannon^{duck talk} 02:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

How can you say I'm a leftist when I openly express contempt for leftists (Stalin, Kerry, Gore, Lenin, Mao, etc)? The left/right distinction is very iffy, which is why I emphasized that I was refering to a distinction made by anarcho-capitalists and was operating under their assumptions. They call themselves right-wing anarchists. Despite trying to say you aren't an anarcho-capitalist you clearly believe that capitalism is completely compatible with anarchism, so you are promoting what a "right anarchist" would say. That is all I'm saying.

And btw, you are the last person who should cite the "No Personal Attacks" policy. The Ungovernable Force 04:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Murray Rothbard says his anarcho-capitalist philosophy is left wing. TheIndividualist 04:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Wendy McElroy says it's right anarchism.[10] I'm basing this off of the page left anarchism. Also, right anarchism redirects to anarcho-capitalism. The Ungovernable Force 05:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LEFT OR RIGHT ANARCHY. Anarchy is freedom. There's no left or right about it. It might entail a somewhat organized system. It might not. I sorta would just love, for once, to have real freedom. Not to have some jerk with power telling me what he or his phony overpaid lawmakers tell me I should do or what I can and can't say. Telling me what I need to think, and the fact that there are laws that attempt to get into your head, pisses me off no end.

Hey. We have friendship. This is cool! In the end we all might want the same thing. Maybe a lot of it is just words and bullshit rhetoric. Maybe. We're just people and not as dumb as those that run us would have us think. Shannon^{duck talk} 06:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that in addition to rhetoric, there are also some major disagreements over reasons why certain self-described anarchists oppose the state. I think the biggest disagreement in anarchism is really over the idea of equality. Anti-cap anarchists are fiercely in support of equality (including economic equality), while anarcho-capitalists do not seem to have a problem with inequality, as long as it comes about without a government imposing it. That to me is the biggest issue. Semantics is a problem as well, as is general disagreement over the best way to live freely. But I see no way in which capitalism can create equality or freedom. Perhaps for a generation if everyone starts out with the same amount, but after a while some people will accumulate wealth and others will lose it. Those who lose it will have to sell their labor or bodies for survival, creating more disparity. A few generations down the line and you have people being born into poverty and others born into splendor, and at that point freedom is a myth. That is why most of us think capitalism is inherently unfree and involuntary. Although I might "choose" to have a job, it really isn't a free choice. I need the money if I want to go to college, and that's because I was born into a poor family (a single mother on welfare). If I was born into a rich family I wouldn't have any need to lift a finger in my life to go to college. I could probably get into any one I wanted to without having to work really hard to get there (at a job or at school). That's why I can't support capitalism. Informal trade tempered by compassion and a willingness to give maybe, but any system that is dominated by a market (free or otherwise) and not dominated by compassion towards others is only going to dehumanize people and their suffering. It creates us vs them mentalities and creates conflict and oppression. That is why I oppose capitalism (and state socialism). Economic's greatest failure is its inability to look beyond statistics. The Ungovernable Force 07:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You said, "..any system that is dominated by a market (free or otherwise)" Who says this system has to be dominated by a market? We do have a choice. If any individual or company started to get oppressive or opportunistic, we people, would not have to buy their products or services. In a free society with no state control, there would be a free press. Agreed? If there were a free press there would be the ability to warn others across the nation of a company that was acting in a greedy way. We would be able to easily and freely communicate the need or possiblility of a huge boycott. Boycott is a powerful tool. If an organized boycott was done on a bastard corporation, the corporation would go down. I believe that is one argument that anarcho-capitalists have. It's the state that perpetuates the success of monster corps, with a system that suppresses action against them, with a system that puts them on corporate welfare, etc. That's state capitalism. The inevitable consclusion to state capitalism is fascism where the corporations actually own the state. It sure looks to me, and many others, that we, in the U.S. are in the mid-to-late stages of a fascist state. This is incredibly not what the (Jeffersonian) classical liberals wanted with a laissez-faire system.

Now I have a question for you. In the system of anarchism that you would like to see, would you have it impossible for capitalism to exist? Would you stamp out it's existence? Shannon^{duck talk} 15:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)